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101
67
Agree Disagree
Debate Score:168
Arguments:288
Total Votes:168
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 Agree (95)
 
 Disagree (66)

Debate Creator

Gypsee(347) pic



Not believing that gods exist doesn't mean believing gods do not exist


Agree

Side Score: 101
VS.

Disagree

Side Score: 67
3 points

In any binary issue, there are always three positions one can take: affirmative, negative, or neutral. Neutrality on an issue is failing to affirm or deny either position. Given that the existence of God, or gods, is such a binary issue, failing to believe in one position isn't affirming the other.

Side: Agree
1 point

Wow, you explained that a lot better than I just did

*

Side: Agree
NowASaint(1380) Clarified
1 point

You better find out what the truth is before it's forced upon you in death. You can know the truth and the truth will make you free, you don't have to go around and around in uncertainty saying, I don't know about this and I cannot confirm the opposite. You can know. People who say they can't know are proving only one thing......they don't know. I know. I know that you can know. Why in the world do you want people who don't know what they are talking about to lead you in not knowing? You can know God for real personally, you can know His love, you can know the reality of His victory over death, you can know the power of His resurrection. You can know you will never die and live forever in Heaven with a new body which is not subject to the corruption of sin which is pulling you down in death now.

Side: Agree
1 point

In this debate I hope to enlighten a few on the meaning of disbelief. It is not only aimed toward theists but also atheists.

I noticed that many people when faced with any given statement, the only possibilities are to either believe that it is true or believe that it is false.

There are a quite a handful of debates centered around atheism/beliefs. I saw that when faced with the question of whether any gods/god exist, the person must believe that either at least one god exists or believe that it is false that any gods exist. That is just incredibly incorrect.

Side: Agree
NowASaint(1380) Disputed
1 point

Who cares if a god exists? A god is not God. God is the One you want to get rid of.

Side: Disagree
3 points

That's what you get when you can't understand what you are talking about.

Side: Agree
Gypsee(347) Clarified
1 point

No one cares if a god exists. It isn't the point at least here. I suppose you believe that God exists. Actually what you believe doesn't matter here. It does not interest me. Do you know what atheism is ?

Side: Agree
1 point

Who cares if gods exist? Who cares if Thor, Neptune, Nemo, Dumbo, or Mary Poppins are gods?

Side: Agree
shoutoutloud(4303) Clarified
1 point

Hey!!! Now you know how I feel about the christian god :D !!!

Side: Agree
NowASaint(1380) Clarified
1 point

The "christian god" is a thing you imagine which is not God. "The christian god" is what you have named the thing you imagine which is not God. Saying "The christian god is not God, therefore God is not God is absurd. Yes I know how you feel about God. You hate Him.

Side: Agree
1 point

It's interesting but I'm not sure I understand exactly what you mean. To me, not believe that gods exist is the same as believing that gods do not exist. Can you please give me more information as to what you mean?

Side: Agree
2 points

If you don't believe gods exist that simply means that everything that has been presented as a god doesn't meet your criteria for a god. If you believe gods do not exist no one can ever present evidence of a god that you will believe.

Side: Agree
Mint_tea(4641) Clarified
1 point

OH I get it. Phew man that was twisting my mind a little, lol. Sorry, I've been dealing with a supreme sick kiddo at home and my brain is a little fritzed. Need more coffee. Thank you.

Side: Agree
Gypsee(347) Clarified
1 point

I think I should have clarified my point a bit more... So, what I trying to point out is complex.

Here so, I am wearing gold earrings. Do you believe me? Is the statement true? You know that gold earrings exist because you've seen them. So, in your head you will accept the possibility that I could be wearing gold earrings.

The thing though that will make my statement for you a simple belief is the fact that you can't see me.

There's just no reasonable basis for you to accept my statement as true. It is however unreasonable to believe that I am wearing gold earrings.

Inversely it is as unreasonable to believe that I am not wearing gold earrings. The fact that you don't know should stop you from refusing my statement.

not believing that this proposition is true isn't the same as believing the proposition is not true: not affirming that I am wearing a gold earrings doesn't mean refusing that I am wearing a gold earrings. You just don't know if I am wearing earrings. You could believe that is possible.

disbelief: you don’t actively believe a proposition, but you don’t deny it either.

Atheists do not deny the existence of God. They simply say nothing about it.

Side: Agree
Mint_tea(4641) Clarified
1 point

So it's kind of like Schrodinger's cat. A paradox of God both being alive or not is unknown unless personally experienced. Yes?

Side: Agree
NowASaint(1380) Clarified
1 point

You say you are wearing gold earrings, so according to your own word you are wearing gold earrings. If you were lying, then you are a liar and you are not wearing gold earrings. Are you trying to say nobody should believe anything you say?

Side: Agree
Mint_tea(4641) Clarified
1 point

Atheists do not deny the existence of God. They simply say nothing about it.

Now see, I'd thought that Atheists DO deny the existence of God (at least the one's I've spoken with, both family and friends). I would think that understanding and practice of saying nothing about it fell more under Agnostic.

Side: Agree
Skepticseeke(10) Disputed
1 point

I would agree with you for the most part except that when you stated, "There's just no reasonable basis for you to accept my statement as true." in reference to your wearing a gold ear ring. The reason we would be justified in believing the claim is because it conforms to how we know things work. We know that gold ear rings are real. Most of us have probably seen them in the past, touched them, and seen other people wearing them. It would also not be uncommon or outside how we know the world to work for you to be wearing gold ear rings. The problem with the God claim is that it lies outside what we have ever observed. We have no practical experience that let's us know god(s) are real. To believe the God claim we need truly exceptional evidence because the claim goes beyond the realm of how we know the cosmos to work.

I completely agree with your conclusion however. If someone tells me there is a God I reject the claim due to the lack of evidence. That doesn't mean that I say i know there is no God because the answer to the question is not knowable.

Side: Agree
1 point

This is a no brainer. You've got "theists" (God DOES exist), "atheists" (God does NOT exist), AND "agnostics" (God may or may not exist, there is no way for humans to know for sure with absolutely certainty, just strong BELIEF). Case closed.

Side: Agree
NowASaint(1380) Disputed
1 point

Your mind is closed. That's your case. You say you can't know, that only proves that you don't know. I know. I know you can know....but I doubt you will because you don't want to renounce your sins. That is the only reason people will not believe, they love their sins more than life for the momentary pleasures they can get while they are fading in death.

Side: Disagree

I find the proposition a little oddly worded but agree with it in principal. There is a proposition by many that there is a god or many gods. This is a claim that purports to describe the true nature of things. The claim is that a divine being exist. One can reject that claim with out claiming that they know no gods exist. If some one came up to me and said there are divine beings I would reject that claim because there is no sufficient evidence to substantiate that claim. This does not mean that I believe that you can prove there are no gods, just that the claim lacks sufficient evidence to support their existence.

Side: Agree
1 point

I disagree.

I personally do not believe that ANY gods exist, or ever have.

That includes all "gods" with a lower class "g" from religions that have many, like Hinduism, as well as the God with a Capital "G" that believers in Judeo-Christian realms believe in.

So....go ahead and Mince words any way you like, as you did in your header. You cannot tell me what I do or do not believe in. Rather, I tell you. Get it? Good.

I do not belive that ANY sort of a god exists. Nor do I believe in the God that is bandied about here by our Christians.

Period.

To me, Yahweh is as credible as Thor or Appollo or Odin or Brahmin or Allah.

Which is...not credible at all. But only products of Mythology.

Imaginary friends for shit-scared adults!

Impacting on my life and as important to is as Big Bird or the Keebler Elves--to coin a phrase from a past debate.

Hope I have made myself clear.

Thanks!

SS

Side: Disagree
1 point

Just so you know, Hinduism doesn't really have many gods. That's just how it might seem to an outsider who hasn't understood it.

Also, it is about agnosticism, or suspension of belief, which skeptics do on this matter. Skeptics are known for suspending belief on anything until it can be proved beyond any doubt.

Side: Agree
SlapShot(2608) Disputed
1 point

WTF are you talking about? Hindu was more gods or deities than you can shake a Ganesha at. Maybe you're the one who doesn't understand it?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindu_deities

Side: Disagree
Cartman(18192) Clarified
1 point

How many would be considered "many" to you?

Side: Agree
NowASaint(1380) Disputed
1 point

Yes, skeptics suspending or completely reject the concept of the reality of the fire of Hell until they are presented with proof beyond any doubt.......and that proof will be to be in the fire frying like an eternal sausage.

Fools are skeptics.

Side: Disagree
1 point

I don't really care if Gods exist, but I do think they or IT exists because no being known to man has ever been smart enough to design and create itself, leave alone the rest of the Universe. Do I believe in the all-knowing, all-powerful concept of God? Nope, coz that is purely a man-made belief system. We need religion and organized rules, however unfair or illogical, in order to exist and sustain our kind. The very fact that mankind has lived for so long is the belief that something bigger than us is taking care and will protect fairness if we are 'just' as we have defined justice. I believe God is something that created us and went on with its life and probably never gave us another thought. If there is a purpose and I need to answer to God, I'll cross that bridge when I am dead.

Side: Agree
Gypsee(347) Clarified
1 point

If you disagree it means that you think that not believing that gods exist is believing gods do not exist.

I don't think you understood the point.

The reason I created this debate because people call themselves atheist but don't even know what it entails... I am pointing out the misunderstanding of the word disbelief.

Atheism is a disbelief in the existence of ANY god. I ask that you be honest with yourself, do you believe Gods do not exist OR do you simply disbelieve the existence?

I insist that there is a difference because one of the statements lead some to say that atheism is a belief when it is not.

Side: Agree
NowASaint(1380) Disputed
1 point

God says He loves you, you're just calling God a liar and making excuses for not believing He loves you instead of trying to figure out why you are not feeling His love.

Side: Agree

For me personally, I don't believe God or gods exist. I don't believe in any way, shape or form.

But faith is individual to everyone, that's just me.

Side: Disagree
1 point

It strictly logical terms, it is true that none belief does not necessitate belief. But colloquially, the statement "I don't believe in God" is functionally the same as "I don't believe in Santa". It means you believe that Santa and God do not exist.

The Topic argument would only holds true for people who have never encountered the concept or for people who truly don't have an idea one way or the other. These are the exceptions.

Side: Disagree
KingGinger93(50) Disputed
1 point

But colloquially, the statement "I don't believe in God" is functionally the same as "I don't believe in Santa". It means you believe that Santa and God do not exist.

Admittingly it can, but not necessarily. Is it not possible for one to be more so unconvinced by an assertion than to be convinced of it being simply incorrect? Sceptics tend to argue from a position of non-belief regardless of what the assertion the scepticism is being applied to. Sceptics of Big Foot for example find the assertion of Big Foot's existence to be unsubstantiated and unreasonable to be accepted, thus the argument tends to start from a lack of evidence. Same thing with Extraterrestrial sighting sceptics, supernatural sceptics, etc.

Granted sceptics come off very certain about something, thus leading to people arguing "Well obviously they believe something...". This is because they are, they are certain that the assertion is plain unreasonable, that accepting said assertion is unreasonable, that it makes too many assumptions about our reality. They are certain that anything other than non-belief is simply unreasonable. This is what makes scepticism counter-intuitive to understand.

Sure if a sceptic had to be certain, had to pick a belief, they'd chose the denying one because that makes significantly less assumptions still, but for the most part sceptics come from a place of non-belief, even though it may not seem like it.

Side: Agree
Amarel(5669) Disputed
1 point

I think I covered the skeptic in my post when I said "The Topic argument would only holds true for people who have never encountered the concept or for people who truly don't have an idea one way or the other. These are the exceptions."

I think that true skeptics are the exception. Skepticism is an important intellectual tool. People can be truly skeptical about some things, but not all, or even most. As you said "if a sceptic had to be certain, had to pick a belief, they'd chose the denying one".

Side: Disagree
NowASaint(1380) Clarified
1 point

colloquially unequivocally nonsense .

Side: Agree
NowASaint(1380) Clarified
1 point

The statement "I don't believe in God" is not the same as "I don't believe in Santa" unless you change the definition of God being the Creator of all things into a created thing like Santa. The functionality of your line of reasoning is a straw man argument, presenting a thing which is not God and saying it is equal to God and therefore God cannot be God. You are arguing against your own created absurdity and saying it's not God.......duh.......how long did it take you to figure out that things created in your imagination are not God?

The only thing consistent in your "I don't believe......." statements is that you don't believe which is your choice. Really it's just you believing in yourself, your own mind being your own imaginary god.

Side: Agree
Amarel(5669) Disputed
1 point

My post was meant specifically for people with the vocabulary and comprehension necessary to understand the meaning behind words and phrases they read. That is to say it was meant specifically not for you.

Side: Agree
1 point

Mere word play sounds like the typical rantings of yet another confused theist , for me there are no gods or god end of story .

Side: Disagree
NowASaint(1380) Disputed
1 point

Keep claiming that you have authority to call the end to the story and you are going to end up in Hell with no end. You're not God,

you can't make God non-existent and you can't keep yourself out of Hell. You need a Savior or you won't be saved. God is the Savior, Jesus is God the Savior and you can be saved, but you won't, will you, Hermit?

(now watch the hermit fly off into a hot fire of profanity spitting dirt in his hatred of God)

Side: Agree
Dermot(5736) Disputed
1 point

Yes I will keep claiming I have the authority as I have , there are no gods , so I am indeed not one the same way I'm not a genie , goblin or ghost :)

I don't have to make a nonexistent fiction existent you really are a special kind of stupid aren't you ?

What a fucked up fairy tale you believe in .....

Imagine being as head fucked as poor you who believes in an all forgiving god who tortures his creations for not believing in him because he's to shy to show himself , what does he do then ..... fries people in hell because he is sulking like a big child ....

By the way most Christians throughout the world do not believe in hell fire ( apparently it's done away with ) no one seems to have told the American fundies because America breeds a special kind of religious nut job that even fellow Christians worldwide cross the road when they see one .....

Side: Disagree
NowASaint(1380) Clarified
1 point

Your stuff is so stupid I don't even have to read it to respond. I hit the buttons of your points without reading your posts, and the proof is the way you respond. You're a fool being jerked around by your own sin.

Side: Agree
Dermot(5736) Disputed
1 point

But you are reading it you retard otherwise you would just go on your sad way ....

Side: Agree