I think a lot of people tend to think that Atheists are fundamentalist in their views towards there being no God. I simply can't accept the idea of a God as there is absolutely no evidence to support it, it's logically flawed, and the figure of God has gone from a phyical to a metaphysical one as it gradually gets pushed out and replaced by scientific discovery. But that's not to say that I won't ever ever ever believe in a God. All I need to shake my athiest views is some evidence. Something; anything! A single shred of evidence. I challange anyone to provide one single piece of evidence that could point only to the existence of a God. I wonder how many takers I'll get...
Anyone can provide you with what they consider to evidence and you could very easily shoot it down. That's not the point nor is it the objective of this debate. The idea is that you give an example of the type of proof you would find acceptable.
I did. Any single piece of evidence. That's all it would take.
Give us an example of what you consider to be a valid single piece of evidence. Would it be the rapture?
Verifiable observations of the Gods active intervention. Prayer being fulfilled consistently, immediately, and accurately. Phenomenon that violate the laws of physics, ie super natural things. Text or scripture of the religion that unambiguously prophecies things that can't be fulfilled through human self fulfillment, ex. a meteor strike. Finding in the human genome a gene sequence that, when made sense of, translates to the theme from Welcome Back Cotter.
I like it. I'll vote that up.
I agree with the previous arguments about evidence ultimately being faulty. If I saw a "miracle," I'd immediately suspect some sleight-of-hand. If I felt the hand of God, I'd doubt my own presence of mind. What I need to justify the existence of a creator are logical answers to these questions, without any nonsensical biblical references: -What sort of entity is God? -Where did this entity come from? -Does this entity care about its creations? -If so, why allow atrocities to be committed in its name? and this is the MOST important: -Why should I worship this creator? It's easier for me to fathom an uninterested being in another dimension who is so completely unlike humans that happened to sneeze one day and created a chain reaction that resulted in the big bang which somehow led to us... than a self-involved warrior God who exacts our exclusive devotion and deprives us of acting on those very instincts he instilled in us. (That would be the God of Abraham) But would this alien creature be considered a "god" at all?
Who says god has to be logical, the idea of there being an omnipotent god is already illogical. -God may not be an entity at all. -God may have always been around, like the universe. -Does a god care at all? -Atrocities may just be something it has set up, like gravity. It's just the way it wants it, and there's no questioning it because there's no understanding the answer. -Another thing that you just might not understand... You have to remember that god is... not human, and using human reasoning on him, and logic, might be the worst thing to do...
I didn't say god had to be logical, I implied that a bit of human logic was necessary to address my doubts in order to shake my disbelief. -"entity" is a word used to describe an abstraction, like a place-holder for something unknown. -Orly, the universe has always been around? -You restate my question about god caring. As far as understanding goes, and the shroud of mystery covering god, I think that with belief must come a little comprehension. If there is absolutely no comprehending an illogical non-entity, then why look for evidence for or against its existence?
Well then, where to start. Ok, the question is "What would it take for you to believe in a God", which is a pretty flawed question seeing as "a" implies a many, but a capital "G" implied one. God means "a superhuman being or spirit worshiped as having power over nature or human fortunes; a deity", the last word being deity, which means (in short) "a postulated preternatural or supernatural being, who is always of significant power, worshipped, thought holy, divine, or sacred, held in high regard, or respected by human beings." Oh, and "being" in there is important, and that means basically, something that exists. An entity is a thing with distinct and independent existence, which in part means that it is without belief. By that I mean, god could not exist if it were only believed in... In this case, thoughts don't exist because I'm using the meaning of exist, which is to "have objective reality"... and for further explanation, objective in this case means "not dependent on the mind for existence", which supports my original statement. So, you are coming to post an argument on what it would take for you to believe in a god, but to you, this god might be only an entity... yet you expect a logical answer to your logical question... Entity, to you might be ANYTHING, yet you are posting about god, and that you would need a logical answer to a logical question. Not too specific, there. I mean, to take an anything, an abstract, that might not even be a thing, and require logic from it? You must be talking about the usual "god", for which I have already described it's meaning as something that exists independent of the mind that creates the (probably logical) abstract. Wouldn't this be logical, seeing as we can already use logic to explain most of the universe that we have explored with the proper tools? I would imagine so. -Logically, the universe couldn't have been created... So far as the willing mind can tell, the universe has always been here in one form or another. Something cannot come from nothing, how could a whole universe just happen? Was there something here before something to create something? That doesn't make much logical sense either... and still you'd need a logical answer. -The statement is different. You said "Does this entity care about its creations", and I said "Does god care at all". About it's creations, and at all... there is a difference. If god is as illogical as it may seem, should we assume that it even cares, like a human does? Even with all of the logical implementation to that question, you could have a million different ways to look at care... imagine if you're a human looking at what god considers "care" in this context. I mean, do you think someone cares about their children if they beat them and treat them like shit? Not to you, but to them, they might care a lot. For your last statement, that's exactly what I'm saying.
What are you arguing for?
Arguing for you love, of coarse.
Bradford makes a valid point. Why try to put limits on God by stating that if there's a God he would surely not allow such and such and he would do such and such. Who are we to assume we know the nature of God and then try to force our beliefs down other people's throat even if they choke to death?
Some kind of deeply spiritual moving epiphany. I would need to feel "touched by god" or "in the presence of god" or something like that. I say this because I'm too cynical to assert that any kind of physical proof would be satisfactory. Anything I'd say could be faked or some kind of illusion or even a mass hallucination. So god would have to manifest within me and make me FEEL his/her presence.
That's a rather strange statement to make. It isn't as if most of what you believe couldn't be a delusion, imagination, a dream, or hallucination (or an elaborate hoax).
I don't intend to be contrary, but I thought I had an epiphany once, after an operation. Was it residual drugs that lasted for days? The point is that given time, you'll find some way to explain the epiphany away. Now to follow my own advise and state what would do it for me, It would be an epiphany or feeling that would sustain itself indefinately. I expect that I will have to be an active participant in sustaining that feeling. The problem is that this world makes that difficult at best. Or maybe I'm just looking for excuses to rationalize going back to what I've considered to be me for so long.
Honestly, I don't think that there is nor ever will be concrete, irrefutable evidence of the existence (or non-existence) of a God. Anything that some would say is a "miracle" can be attributed to blind chance by anybody who doesn't believe that it could have been a miracle. Similarly, even if you are "touched by God" (which I believe has happened to me and many people I know on multiple occasions) it is very easy just to explain it away in your head. I think it would be a little too easy if God just dropped some evidence for us to find, though. Belief would no longer be based on faith.
OK, but did you ever wonder why God stopped doing things like parting the Red Sea? I mean, people who worshiped some guy named Phil and saw that would surely have said, "There's something bigger than Phil!" Or has humanity become so sophisticated so intellectual, cynical that we would just try to explain it away? Are governments actively trying to dumb down their populations in order to make them more innocent and thus easier to control? Can you imagine a world were people would consider it normal for a leader to call himself a God? Would those people be naive, happy?
I need a couple of white skinned, blonde haired young men wearing ties to knock on my door, and explain to me how Jesus hung out with the Indians and doesn't want me to drink coffee.
I don't think anything will shift my mindset. Logically, God doesn't make sense. If you break particles down in to their quantum levels, the proteins behave nearly randomly. It's like a coin-flip, the direction in which they move. Is this God? Most definitely not. Nature is constructed to be harmonious in some cases, but complex in others. Science will eventually solve nearly everything -- but this will take centuries, maybe even thousands of years. I will be dead, you will be dead, but it doesn't matter. God will never exist. Soon enough, the stories will become so trashed that the future generations will look back and think about how stupid people were for falling for religion. As a side note, look at all of the destruction religion has caused (inquisition, crusades, wars, murders, etc). What's the point?
The point is entertainment. I mean, those people didn't have TV in those days. The inquisition and crusades was their version of a computer adventure game. Also, humanity may snuff itself out long before we figure out nearly everything. And what if there is a God and things pan out like the bible says, then future generations will look back and think about how stupid people were for not believing.
If god is what it's supposed to be, I shouldn't have to believe, I should know. Even then, I could be fooled into knowing... Still, there can be nothing that would have me believe in a god. Even if something happened, like god descending from the sky pronouncing his godliness, that would trigger me into thinking about the bible... the bible says that the devil could fool the world into believing that he didn't exist right? Who says he cannot fool a mortal into believing he's god? No one. Why should I believe? Seems to me like no matter what I believe I'm cursed.
But if you did believe in a God, would that be so bad?
Being able to high-five Jesus.
Soewhere beteen th ages of 18 and 24 I lost my believe in the God I believed in as a child.I asked questions which were not answered sufficiently ,or not at all.I have pretty analytic brain and wanted logical answers to believe.Anyway I was politically active on the left and taught in Protestant school for a few years then moved to multicultural schools[Scotland] where I learned a lot about other cultures a religions ,but my life was slipping own,I found extreme lefties missed something in their energy [I'm Irish and pick up good or bad energies quickly]and not only did they not believe in anything.They were egoistical ,amoral and unhelpful and bad for me ,but I was intransigent in my atheism ,having the usual arguments against the belief in a God and even bringing my son up without any sign of religion,dismissing those who questioned me.You see believing in a God might too mean that I would have to examine my lifestyle ,and give up my power I was very proud of my knowledge and my'logic[whatever that means].Anyway became very ill.No there was no sudden reconversion but probably I knew that I needed to review my self.I began a long and sometimes terrifying journey .I could not move for the best part of a year and the doctors could not help me.They made me worse with drugs and antibiotics.I had caught a virus from Africa and some sort of bacteria too.The journey led me to an inner unfolding of an unseen universe which I could not see,as I lived in the ordinary external existence of my life .Every time I spend too much time with people I lose it but as time goes on it gets stronger although I have resisted for years I have felt someone holding me up for a purpose,after I called out for help against my will but from the botom of my soul.But my journey is not about believe alone,although here where I livenow is so beautiful it makes you stand in awe .I said to someone who lives there[ for always] Isn't it so beautiful here,they looked at me blankly,and I realised,their inner eye was missing as mine had been .You have to have an inner heart /eye to see God and when you do you will Know. Do you know R. Dawkins has a problem with fear?When you are in a relationship with God because you are connected to the eternal cycle ,while when you don't believe, you are outside of this and live in a limited cycle .Some of course will have a larger cycle because they have been good and believed in the past. You lose your fear eventually. I live in the countryside alone,no dogs ,but the atheists near me need their dogs . I have developed a formula which shows quite clearly those who can connect to this eternal cycle and God and those who don't having spent years on my study but guided.No matter how much study you do it will not bear fruit unless you are connected guided .Einstein and all the greatest artists have it ,this connction. However it is my secret for now ,until I've finished writing it up.
What do you mean? Are you writing a book? Is it going to discuss the connected part and do some guidance?
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