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Tha only thing I could say about this being organized....It really gives all those ignorant people a way to go in there life if they didnt have that they would be totally lost in this world
As with any major institution or corporation it almost always leads to some sort of corruption, whether it be religion or science. I think science could be indicted in the same way, as it has created nuclear bombs and has caused damage to the environment.
I couldn't disagree more about religion being the cause of evil, murder, etc. Human nature 101; The scum bags will always invade that which can be manipulated for money and power. You have low life cops who become cops just so they can abuse the power. Is law enforcement bad? No, the abuse and manipulation of law enforcement is bad. That is just one example. First of all every 'Bad' religious incident from history such as the crusades was an example of religious people doing what their religion tells them NOT to do! You're not supposed to kill innocent people, priests are not supposed to rape boys according to Christianity. It's when people do what their religion tells then NOT to do that infuriates people, i'm with you on that. But what sense does it make to focus your blame on the religion that they ignored and violated? My other reason that I totally disagree with the 'religion causes evil' arguement is because it is a one sided arguement, it only views the negatives. How about people who were assholes their whole life but then they found God and did a total 180? What about ex-cons who turn themselve around because of God? Or what about just your average person who has restrained him or herself from doing evil a thousand times because they have a 'God is watching' conscious? I mean really, how many people do you know of who have killed in the name of God? Some but not many. Now compare that to how many people who have killed because they don't believe their are any consequences in life if you don't get caught? I'm not saying an athiest is more inclined to kill but I am saying that religion has restrained people from killing many times. The thing is that even though religion restrains a lot of people from doing evil you'll never read that in the paper or in history books. The 'Bad News' about religion will always make the papers. Yes wars are started over religion. But wars will always be started because 'My view opposes your view.' If it ain't religion it's money, or land, or oil, etc. America never went to war over the Bible but we still found ways to get into them. It's just that religious wars so happen to be between very religious countries. If they were secular they'd be warring over something else trust that
I do agree that organized religion has done more harm than good.
However, it isn't the actual religions that cause it. It's the people who claim they follow a certain religion and yet they do bad things that the religion itself does not teach.
In one way or another, all religions, whether Christianity, Islam or Hinduism (whatever it may be), they all teach peace and other ethical teachings. No one religion tells people to kill one another, or whatever it may be.
If you take a look at this site, on the bottom, you can look through each religion, and it shows you how each of them has peaceful teachings.
I'm talking especially about Islam, which nowadays people feel is a dangerous and disastrous religion after 9/11. True Muslims don't bomb one another. It is those who feel, in the name of their religion, should destroy others, particularly the West. In fact, the word "Islam" is derived from an Arabic word meaning "Peace."
organized religion refers to a group of people who follow, practice and preach a common religion and lay down some morals and ethics for themselves and also in a way do good for society as well.
Religion provided a sort of moral compass, a code by which people could live, by which actions could be judged as good or bad. As human society came of age - escaping from the jungles and caves of our ancestors - there was a need to control the reptilian, animal brain, the tendency of "every man for himself," the law of the jungle. I do believe religions provided some of that discipline and a moral imperative.There is the ten commandment, the koran, laws of manu, etc. These are edicts of different religions, meant to prevent chaos, murder, mayhem.
Second, some religions, like Sikhism, came up in response to great oppression and cruelty. Sikh religion was formed to defend people from the atrocities of mughal rulers.
it doesn't matter to which God you are praying but how about we look at this way, that He becomes a Saviour of soul for many who pray to him everyday, on whom many people's life depend, in a way it also gives us the meaning of our being in the world. People need something to lean upon, a reason for being, some place of comfort and solace. Religion provides that a majority of people. While it's not real medicine, it serves the purpose of a placebo. And we all know that placebos work as well as the real thing. So, if religion does help even ONE person in leading a better and happier life, it has served it's purpose.
So, if religion does help even ONE person in leading a better and happier life, it has served it's purpose.
While destroying countless others in the process?
The idea that a depraved book of primitive savagery for the deluded should serve as some sort of moral compass is a tired idea that belongs in the dark ages.
Morality is just another part of evolution. Behaviours that are considered "moral" have been adopted simply because they are beneficial for survival.
There is the ten commandment, the koran, laws of manu, etc. These are edicts of different religions, meant to prevent chaos, murder, mayhem.
If you take the Bible for example, you can clearly see that morality exists in spite of it, not because of it.
If we were to look to the Bible for moral guidance, we'd be forbidding women to speak (the Bible says they are to remain silent and are not to teach, or have authority over any man), killing our children for being disobedient, stoning our daughters to death for losing their virginity, forcing them to marry men who rape them and sending them out to be gang raped by angry mobs to protect our male dinner guests; not to mention keeping slaves and beating them to death (condoned in the Bible so long as they don't die right away) and "dashing babies to death on rocks" because they happen to be the children of our enemies.
Does this really sound to you like a book to be consulted by anyone in search of morality?
Also the main character in this novel decides on an act of horribly gruesome phillicide or suicide to apparently free the people of the burden of sin which he created in the first place. As if the excruciating pain of one poor soul is meant to do anything but show that corporal punishment is the right way to go, who is he trying to impress with this move? it must be himself, I don't imagine anyone (sane) that would find the crucification of an innocent man to be impressive. We are to believe that God is omniscient and omnipotent which means he knows all and is all powerful so why did he start this shit train in the first place, he set in motion the process by which he would be killed by the very people he created and put in the center of his universe.
I know this is straying from the topic a bit so I would like to add that organized religion does give hope to people but at the price of their humanity.
You are straight up bitter towards religion. It's absolutely ridiculous to not see the point of the poster. For the love of God give credit where credit is due. "Destroyed countless others" What are you talking about the crusades or something? Religion haters can't get off that subject, the guy is talking about how it's an absolute FACT that religion helps millions relieve stress, feel good, act better, etc. And you come back at him with a speech about the countless others slain in the religions wars of the dark ages lol. It's real simple, religion is good when it is used properly. And like EVERYTHING else in life religion is a total scam that harms people when it's corrupted by scum bags who want to use people. Religion is dear to people, you better believe the snakes will use that to their advantage. But that's true for everything. Religion that hasn't been corrupted is a good thing religion that has been corrupted sucks!
I believe in separation of religion from government. One statement I'll always agree with is that 'The church persecuted is pure, the church popular is polluted.' It's true all throughout history, once 'money & power' enter the equation of religion forget it it's ruined because all the fake religious people will come on board. So you are right. It's hard to get a pure 'organized' religion. I think the good in religion doesn't stand a chance at high levels of organization just like politics is corrupt. So I am probably a loser on this debate looking at the title, but on a personal level i think religion is a good thing. When people truely do it for themselves & for genuine reasons it has helped millions of people live a better life and be better for society (criminals, alchoholics, drug users, violent people, depressed people, etc., many have changed their tune for the better because of religion)
Anyone who puts himself between you and the claimed; most great and unfathamable power in the world, is obviously a con man.
Imagine a mouse telling another mouse that he represented the sun and the other mouse should give him a tenth (or a tax subsidy, whatever) so the paying/swindled mouse can learn how to surrender to the heat of the sun in the right way.
Con´s usually hurt people but there are arguably exceptions, such as maybe Santa Claus (although he gets some complaints for being the deity of consumerism)
Likewise, church is not a religion. And regardless of whether the subject is State or Church, both are the consequent of the antecedent ‘religion’. And yet, when the subject is religion, both Church and State are equally denoted. But people tend to overlook the State as also a consequent of religion. Furthermore, they also tend to not recognize the mutual, principle attributes of both Church and State.
Likewise, church is not a religion. And regardless of whether the subject is State or Church, both are the consequent of the antecedent ‘religion’. And yet, when the subject is religion, both Church and State are equally denoted. But people tend to overlook the State as also a consequent of religion. Furthermore, they also tend to not recognize the mutual, principle attributes of both Church and State.
That's why I said you may want to use the words zeal, or even dedication. It's true that the state can resemble certain religious qualities (patriotism for example, and parties can resemble sectarianism) and it's true that the Church can affect the state even in a secular society, but for the sake of definition I was trying to correct your association of the two because in spite of the similarities government, indeed the state, has no supernatural qualities attached to it which is required for a religion.
A religion is an ideology or philosophy in which a supernatural component exists. There doesn't have to be god, for example Buddhism qualifies. There doesn't have to be hard dogma or a strict set of rules, for example Animism and New Age. Supernaturalism on its own isn't religion, because that could simply lead to a "spiritual" or "mystical" person. Basically any belief system which include something magical or "alternative" or "beyond" the natural world.
I see now that in this debate I should define these words before using them since the words are crucial and apparently mean different things to different people.
I was using the definition of authoritarianism whereby a group of people or a single person has supreme command over a large group. The large group submits themselves to this authority on matters.
I wanted to use this term because divorcing religion from the supernatural as your definition does allows for concepts not typically seen as religious to be defined as such (for example, a totalitarian government could be considered a religious state due to everyone's submission to a leader).
Would you care to dismantle my definition? If so, I will thoughtfully consider your thoughts.
Well, your implied definition of authoritarianism is less narrow, it's like the adjective form as opposed to mine being the noun form, so to speak. I gather from your usage that you thought democracy could be a part of an authoritarian government because in colloquial usage "authoritarian" is often used to negatively describe democratic governments that have given too much power to a small elected group. A popular example is McCarthy-era America, when elected men of influence were targeting specific ideological groups despite having no legitimate capacity to do so. In this case people's fear and trust of authority allowed them to create a political climate comparable to true authoritarian governments at the time (Stalin-era Russia) by censoring and intimidating ideologies and opinions they disagreed with.
But as I understand it, a true authoritarian government (or social group) requires a lack of democracy because a democracy undermines the ruling party's authority. Your definition of religion, where a group submits to a supreme authority, is essentially the same as authoritarianism, since religions lack democracy too.
Well, your implied definition of authoritarianism is less narrow, it's like the adjective form as opposed to mine being the noun form, so to speak.
From what have you inferred that either democracy or authoritarianism are implicitly defined?
Religion, as per my definition, is an attribute of both authoritarianism and democracy. It denotes both, but it does not make a distinction of either. Furthermore the definition of religion is not the definition of democracy or authoritarianism.
All that I have thus far affirmed is simply that both forms of government possess the attribute ‘religion’.
Repost:No, the definition also denotes democracy. The definition is the genus of religion, not the species of religion.
However, it is obvious that you think my definition of ‘religion’ is the definition of ‘authoritarian’.
As per my definition the following is valid:
All authoritarian and democratic forms of government are religion. But not all religions are democratic or authoritarian government.
True or false:
All forms of societal government are supreme authority. And all forms of supreme authority exist because of submission to power.
You will note that the term submission denotes capitulation, obedience, compliance, surrender, acquiescence, deference, assent, defeat etc.
From what have you inferred that either democracy or authoritarianism are implicitly defined?
I was trying to explain that when you use the concepts of authoritarianism or religion, because both rely totally on some authority, there can be no true democracy (since you can never displace the ultimate authority). However when you use the concepts as adjectives, such as describing X government as authoritarian, it can be a mere descriptor but not necessarily a proper use of the concept. In this way, my government can be described as authoritarian but it isn't a true authoritarian government, it merely has qualities of one.
All that I have thus far affirmed is simply that both forms of government possess the attribute ‘religion’.
Repost:No, the definition also denotes democracy. The definition is the genus of religion, not the species of religion.
However, it is obvious that you think my definition of ‘religion’ is the definition of ‘authoritarian’.
If religion as per your definition removes the supernatural element, and is submission to an ultimate authority, how is it meaningful that government possesses the attribute of religion? Specifically I'm asking how religion becomes a meaningful word if you remove the supernatural element?
All authoritarian and democratic forms of government are religion. But not all religions are democratic or authoritarian government.
I think there is an issue with the second sentence, try as I might I can think of no religion that has democratic properties, and I can envision none that don't rely on some sort of ultimate authority.
All forms of societal government are supreme authority. And all forms of supreme authority exist because of submission to power.
You will note that the term submission denotes capitulation, obedience, compliance, surrender, acquiescence, deference, assent, defeat etc.
I think that this is conditionally true. If you have a democracy, for example, the government changes according to the people's votes, meaning that there is a sort of circle of authority and submission. Further, on a realistic level governments are never supreme in authority because of military, and the risk of coup d'etat. I do find it true, however, that governments stay in authority because of collective submission.
If religion as per your definition removes the supernatural element, and is submission to an ultimate authority, how is it meaningful that government possesses the attribute of religion? Specifically I'm asking how religion becomes a meaningful word if you remove the supernatural element?
Those questions signify the crux of our disagreement; I’ll address them.
Men assemble themselves and form a religion named: AAA.
Men assemble themselves and form a government named: notAAA.
Both AAA and notAAA are the creations of men. They are not the creations of something that is supernatural.
Does either one have more authority than the other? Both are supreme.
Be careful with this one.
(Please pardon the Socratic method.)
Yes and no.
In theory, the religion will tell you that god (usually the religion has a god) is supreme over man. Some religions do not have this component. Sometimes a state will attach a personality cult to its leader, giving it heavy authority.
In real-world examples, the Catholic church has dominion over hundreds of millions across the world without borders. Islam has authority that crosses borders too, with followers accepting fatwas from thousands of miles away.
So I would argue that officially, the state has ultimate authority because it can disband a religion, but in the real world the church (religion) knows no boundaries and has the final word. Therefore religion wins.
Now here is where the rubber meets the road of my argument.
No man has the authority to create a supreme-authority. Moreover, thousands of men cannot assemble themselves and pretend that they now have more authority and therefore they then have authority for the creation of a supreme authority by reason thereof. This is equivalent to one man having the sole authority over his house, but yet when he assembles with men of equal authority, they, combined, now have the authority to create a supreme authority that then has authority over all men of lesser authority. And irrespective of the limits of the pseudo-dominion of this new-found supreme authority, all of the subjects of this authority are enemies and criminals when they resist this falsity, or, they are blessed and taxed when they obey and/or they are blessed and promoted when they enforce.
There is no such thing as supreme-authority, but men both create and bow to it as though doing so makes it so.
So, in a nutshell, here is an application of my definition:
All men seek to be subject to an authority they call “supreme”. Even when that means they must create the authority of which they choose to be subject. However, there are times when they simply choose to abide in the will of the authority that was created hundreds of years ago by they who have been dead just as long. This is the nature of religion.
All men seek to be subject to an authority they call “supreme”. Even when that means they must create the authority of which they choose to be subject. However, there are times when they simply choose to abide in the will of the authority that was created hundreds of years ago by they who have been dead just as long. This is the nature of religion.
So then following your reasoning, a religion is submission to long-dead authorities while a government is submission to currently living authorities.
No man has the authority to create a supreme-authority. Moreover, thousands of men cannot assemble themselves and pretend that they now have more authority and therefore they then have authority for the creation of a supreme authority by reason thereof. This is equivalent to one man having the sole authority over his house, but yet when he assembles with men of equal authority, they, combined, now have the authority to create a supreme authority that then has authority over all men of lesser authority. And irrespective of the limits of the pseudo-dominion of this new-found supreme authority, all of the subjects of this authority are enemies and criminals when they resist this falsity, or, they are blessed and taxed when they obey and/or they are blessed and promoted when they enforce.
Not in an objective sense, but men get around this caveat by the old rule of "might makes right." All the old empires and governments were forged upon blood and death. So following your reasoning, an authority is put into service by a group of men that elect to do so, and who kill all opposition.
Of course it has. I can't imagine how many millions of people have suffered at the hands of those who have committed crimes in the name of this or that god.
I will wait for the typical responses from religious apologists before saying anything else.
Of course it has. I can't imagine how many millions of people have suffered at the hands of those who have committed crimes in the name of this or that god.
If you can’t imagine how many millions of people have suffered because of ecclesiastical religion, then it stands to reason you cannot also imagine the millions of people who have benefitted because of that religion. Consequently you have disqualified yourself from this debate because you cannot quantify either side of the comparison of this debate, let alone the basic requirement of quantifying both sides.
Furthermore, there is no factual data available for either side of this question; it is merely an exercise in bull-shitting one’s opinion under a transparent veil of falsely assumed evidence.
BTW, welcome to CD. Perhaps we’ll engage in a debate.
If you can’t imagine how many millions of people have suffered because of ecclesiastical religion, then it stands to reason you cannot also imagine the millions of people who have benefitted because of that religion. Consequently you have disqualified yourself from this debate because you cannot quantify either side of the comparison of this debate, let alone the basic requirement of quantifying both sides.
He wasn't saying that he had no idea. He was saying that the amount of people harmed by organised religion is immense, uncountable.
Furthermore, there is no factual data available for either side of this question; it is merely an exercise in bull-shitting one’s opinion under a transparent veil of falsely assumed evidence.
Of course there is. For example, Hitler's extermination of the Jews is a measured affect of the consequences of exploiting the Europeans' hatred of and distrust of Jews that has existed for generations, and was instilled by organised religion.
A contemporary example is the religious export machine that is Saudi Arabia, a country with an oil industry that dwarfs some of our wealthiest corporations, and the fact that they are using that wealth to fund mosques and activists in the west so that Wahhabism can grow in a culture that doesn't accept its backwards ideals of Sharia and misogyny.
Then there's the Catholic church and the recent scandal being allowed to come to light in which it actively helped cover up child molestations. This being only a tiny pip of the evil that the church has been behind, forgetting the rampant misinformation it teaches to poor, undereducated African nations, specifically that condoms are sinful and won't prevent the spread of HIV. Then we must remember that the church has been actively against the enlightenment, that it persecuted intellectuals throughout the middle ages, that it would burn people for heresy, sold indulgences to people, and had its fingers in all of Europe's governments for centuries.
How about modern day Evangelism and the Born-again movement that has married in with Creationism and Christian Reconstructionism in a campaign to undermine the scientific method and replace it with a mythology that holds the earth to be 6000 years old, among other ridiculous bits of dogma. So well-financed and loud is this movement that the general American population thinks that there is no scientific consensus about evolution, it thinks that there is a controversy, and so forth. In other words, this movement besides scamming people out of money for useless merchandise, has made the public a whole lot dumber and easier to manipulate.
These are just some of the little things that are bad about organised religion. I could go on for days about sectarian violence, about massacres against Protestants by Catholics and vice versa, but I don't have the time or the space.
He wasn't saying that he had no idea. He was saying that the amount of people harmed by organised religion is immense, uncountable.
That is a distinction without a difference. My response equally reduces both, what he affirmed and what you think he intended to affirm, to absurdity.
Now concerning the remainder of your argument thus far, you do recognize the question is not about religion causing harm, but rather about religion causing more harm than good. Ergo, you must provide a quantification of both the good and harm of religion. Notwithstanding, you must also represent in your comparative argument all religions of all peoples from all times of religion, all religious deeds of the peoples of the same, a non-arbitrary objective standard of both ‘harm’ and ‘good’, and most importantly, provide facts that substantiate a sufficient sample size to prove your conclusion is fact by comparison of all known facts of the harms and goods of religion.
Granted, I will not dispute the crimes of men regardless or because of their associations and affiliations; that would be idiotic. But at the same time I will not accept your argument that because religion has caused harm it therefore has and will cause more harm than good. (I was born at night, but I was not born last-night.)
That is a distinction without a difference. My response equally reduces both, what he affirmed and what you think he intended to affirm, to absurdity.
Not necessarily. I actually considered that possibility in your earlier reply I disputed. He simply had foregone the option to list the good, and it is completely possible for something to have unfathomable badness while only bringing about a tiny portion of countable goodness.
For example, Nazi Germany had unfathomable badness attached to it. However, some good came from it, specifically certain medical research, military revolutions, and thanks to Nazism we now have a gigantic warning against the perils of using scapegoats like you see in sectarianism and racism. You might point out that the "good" isn't strictly numeric and I admit that this comes down to value judgements, however I think most people would come to the conclusion that the above mentioned "good" is outweighed by a war machine that was exterminating an ethnic group and bent on assimilating Europe, and that that war machine was unimaginably bad.
In your reasoning, Nazi Germany wouldn't lead to such an asymmetric difference in bad versus good. You'd assume that because one is uncountable, the other must follow, and you'd be wrong.
Now concerning the remainder of your argument thus far, you do recognize the question is not about religion causing harm, but rather about religion causing more harm than good. Ergo, you must provide a quantification of both the good and harm of religion.
This is actually hard for me to do. Rather, it rests upon such a deep assumption that it's hard for me to be detached from that assumption, however I'll grant you a snippet of my deeper reasoning:
From what I can best ascertain, organised religion has been at least partially and usually fully responsible for the following:
# Leading the west into a downward spiral known as the dark and middle ages due to a decision to ignore pagan (Roman) technologies and writings, and keeping these inventions, findings, and discoveries mostly hidden or neglected to be reinvented or rediscovered later.
# Leading the middle east and northern Africa into a similar downward spiral as Muslim intellectuals seemed to lose ground to fundamentalism, which is why Islamic society is now considered in some circles to be middle-age values in modern-age clothing.
# Endorsing the caste system in Hindu society for centuries which has caused major social inequality.
# Just about any massacre in south Asia and central Africa in recent history has religious roots.
# The rampant sectarian violence in middle-age Europe between warring Christian factions.
# Jihad. One word, really, because thanks to it and a "brilliant" decentralised terrorist organisation known as Al Qaeda, we may never see an end to Muslim suicide bombings.
# Religious differences lead to the destruction of the great libraries of the ancient world.
# Religious differences lead to the destruction of ancient artwork.
The good:
# Thanks to centuries of sectarianism, we now have secularism.
# Religious inspiration has given us (or contributed to) some of our major pieces of artwork.
# Religion has given us a number of festivals and celebration days.
# Religion permeates old songs, operas and written works.
Now, what makes me quantify one over the other:
In my mind, we could still have art, festivities, writings and songs in a secular society. However, the loss of so many centuries of ancient society and its research and knowledge to me is a great crime. But it doesn't end there, books and poems and novels were lost, recordings of hundreds or perhaps thousands of years of human history lost in time because some religious conquerors thought they were pagan and worthless compared to a single "holy book." To me this is such a deep insult, such a terrible war crime, that I just can't forgive it. But still it continues, because thanks to so much being lost our side of society (the west) had to essentially rebuild itself from scratch, reinvent many of the things that were already known like plumbing and basic infrastructure, and medicine. On top of that, organised religion actively punished progress, burned whatever it could as heretical and executed intellectuals. Imagine where we could have been if just a single church, the Catholic church, didn't exist or at the very least was benevolent instead of so evil. We could have colonised the Moon, and Mars, and have been in progress towards terraforming Venus. Thanks to organised religion we are centuries behind and have a terrorist organisation that is impossible to destroy because it has no leader, and it favours exploding people in public places, which solves no problems but just spreads misery.
That is my reasoning, pick it to pieces if you like but it's why I have such an axe to grind with organised religion.
Endorsing the caste system in Hindu society for centuries which has caused major social inequality.
(Bells Chiming)
Wrong
Wrong
Wrong
The Varna system in your scriptures proposes a model for a type of caste system, and it's surmised that the Hindu caste system began from that, even though it may be different now from that system.
And the fact that it doesn't count as organised religion (I don't think)
An organised religion, at least in my understanding, is a religion that is shared by more than a small group of people and preferably has some authorities in it that make edicts or rulings or interpretations.
Plus you missed out tons of good things, but I'm sure lawnman has a much better and detailed reply than I do.
Firstly the current caste system is 'practised' by hindus, muslims, buddhists and christians.
Secondly the Varna system does not cause major social inequality.
So a caste system (which itself has been distorted into inequality, rigidity, divisive etc. by non-hindu influences) which is not followed simply by one religious group, isn't THAT MUCH different from social differences in other countries and could be applied to any society is a RELIGIOUS flaw?
hmmm....
I could go on forever but white people don't know shit on subjects such as this....
Like?
It's hard to explain because the benefits of religion - but I'd like you to tell me the bad things non-abrahimic religions have done. Preferably before the 16th century - but that choice is yours. =D
Firstly the current caste system is 'practised' by hindus, muslims, buddhists and christians.
That doesn't really matter though. In societies, different religious groups frequently impose values on each other.
So a caste system (which itself has been distorted into inequality, rigidity, divisive etc. by non-hindu influences) which is not followed simply by one religious group, isn't THAT MUCH different from social differences in other countries and could be applied to any society is a RELIGIOUS flaw?
This isn't the topic of my argument. My topic is that Varna encouraged or lead to the subsequent caste system.
I could go on forever but white people don't know shit on subjects such as this....
I'm not exactly white...
It's hard to explain because the benefits of religion - but I'd like you to tell me the bad things non-abrahimic religions have done. Preferably before the 16th century - but that choice is yours. =D
Well, generically, religious thinking makes people gullible and easier to manipulate because it stunts critical thinking ability. This is why, for example, gurus in India amongst other places take advantage of people, robbing them of wealth in exchange for bogus services. It also instils dogma which can make cultures resistant to change for no good reason when their dogma is threatened.
Specifically, there's the Sikh state movement known as the Khalistan movement. This lead to various military, commando, and terrorist groups to that end. We also have Aum Shinrikyo and the sarin gas attacks in a Japanese subway. In Africa a number of tribal beliefs in magic have made their way into the 21st century, and so it isn't unheard of, for example, that a man might accuse a woman of witchcraft and making his penis disappear (to the police, no less, and seriously). One would think that before pursuing the matter they'd drop his trousers and prove he was delusional, but they don't. There's also ritual animal sacrifices that still exist to this day, which are unnecessary and depending on how they are performed, needlessly cruel to the animal.
There's more, but these are some of the big ones on recent history.
Varna system did not encourage todays caste system. Todays caste system in many ways in contrary to the varna system.
It also instils dogma which can make cultures resistant to change for no good reason when their dogma is threatened.
This can be a bad thing. Looking at the muslim world for example, we can see how they're reacting to liberalism (the good sort, not the bad sort)
But right now I'm discussing Hinduism. Tell me something that was actually wrong with Hinduism? Before it was tainted by British Christians and even Muslims (though not as bad) Brits delibirately sought to destroy Indian culture, religion and education so it could conquer it. The flaws in hindu society you see today are as a direct result of British (and to the minor effect muslim) involvement. Find me flaws before Brits fucked India up - I can tell you there won't be many.
Secondly most examples you gave me was of how religion was used for other motives rather than religion doing evil itself. Guru's providing bonuses = conmen, where they're abusing people's trust. This happens all the time without religion, so putting religion in the blame is superficial. Fundamentalist movements tend to be politically, economically and culturally motivated alongside religion rather than due to religion.
You could argue that if there wasn't organised religion, then people's trust/fear/differences etc. could not be exploited. Think about Nazism.
99% of the evils people blame religion on tends to be usary and abuse of religion rather than religion itself.
My personal belief is that religion micromanages everything - especially in the way communities should be. When you have good communities you have a great country. That's my personal belief.
Varna system did not encourage todays caste system. Todays caste system in many ways in contrary to the varna system.
Using a familiar example, Christianity doesn't directly encourage money-hoarding and profiteering in its theology but one can say that Christianity lead to the multi-million dollar megachurches that exist now, and the extreme wealth of the Vatican.
This is the type of connection I'm drawing on with regards to the Varnas and caste system. The Hindu scriptures do not directly lead to the current caste system, but could be considered enablers by creating the "fertile grounds" for caste much as Christianity, despite being against the wealthy, created fertile grounds for them by creating the church trust structure.
Maybe I should have been more clear in this, because it's not a direct relationship.
But right now I'm discussing Hinduism. Tell me something that was actually wrong with Hinduism? Before it was tainted by British Christians and even Muslims (though not as bad) Brits delibirately sought to destroy Indian culture, religion and education so it could conquer it. The flaws in hindu society you see today are as a direct result of British (and to the minor effect muslim) involvement. Find me flaws before Brits fucked India up - I can tell you there won't be many.
I don't have many issues with the Hindu religion or culture. Remarkably, the Abrahamic religions are so vile, such a cancer to this world that by comparison any grievances with almost any other religion are minuscule.
I do express concern towards Hindutva because of its nationalism, and I find India's pseudo-secularism to be the opposite of what it should be, that is one law for all instead of separate laws for separate religions.
Secondly most examples you gave me was of how religion was used for other motives rather than religion doing evil itself. Guru's providing bonuses = conmen, where they're abusing people's trust. This happens all the time without religion, so putting religion in the blame is superficial.
Correct, it is superficial, however my concern is with how religion instils this trust in the first place. If you have a man who doesn't accept the supernatural, it is much harder to appeal to him with supposed miracles than a man who thinks that magic and mythic creatures exist. Religion is tied with this supernatural thinking, to the point that you can't have a religion unless it is supernatural in some respect. The Guru is just an example of a man who uses this to his advantage, it could be any sort of con man, under any sort of ideology, but religion does create a vulnerability in people or at least prevents that vulnerability from being closed.
Fundamentalist movements tend to be politically, economically and culturally motivated alongside religion rather than due to religion.
This was actually my second point I was going to bring up, specifically I have to wonder how successful these fundamentalist movements would be if there wasn't a common blanket religion to group people together in supporting it. I think religion gives a group mindset that allows these purely political movements to find support, when otherwise they would have to convince people and recruit members. You could say this is a flaw of human character, to join a group by association for herd protection instead of personal interests or shared values.
You could argue that if there wasn't organised religion, then people's trust/fear/differences etc. could not be exploited. Think about Nazism.
I wouldn't make that argument. I just think that religion exacerbates matters much of the time. Take homosexual rights in the US, a very hot issue there. If religion didn't exist, people would still feel disgusted towards homosexuality, but it would be a simple matter of convincing these people that they need not think about other people's personal lives and just live harmoniously together in society. Religion however steps in and convinces these people that in addition to the "ick factor" some ineffable god hates fags, that there is some sort of elaborate agenda to persecute heterosexuals, and so on. There's no reaching people at this point.
99% of the evils people blame religion on tends to be usary and abuse of religion rather than religion itself.
Sure, but is it healthy to have something in peoples' lives that lends itself towards abuse and misuse?
My personal belief is that religion micromanages everything - especially in the way communities should be. When you have good communities you have a great country. That's my personal belief.
Maybe, but I personally would rather that philosophy replace religion in that statement. Philosophy is negotiable, and can change. Because religion operates on the wishes of supposed supernatural beings, there is no dialogue or room for change.
If you have a man who doesn't accept the supernatural
No. That is not the problem. The problem is with authority who abuse it. It's that simple. You are simply scapegoating religion. If there were no religions abusive authorities will find something else to use for their own deeds.
People's trust/faith in authority is what you are essentially arguing against. So the way to overcome that is to have no respect for authority - right? Then you get countries like America. No respect or care for anybody. It's not just authorities who are corrupt there - nearly everybody is corrupt. Atleast with religion the general public is good and some authorities are corrupt. In places like America - everybody is a little evil. And authorities still manage to abuse their powers even though it's constitution is against doing so. Think why.
No. That is not the problem. The problem is with authority who abuse it. It's that simple. You are simply scapegoating religion. If there were no religions abusive authorities will find something else to use for their own deeds.
Correct, authority is an issue, however what is one of the things that makes people susceptible to abuse of authority? Religion.
Religion is hammered into the minds of children, and it makes them susceptible to authority figures who abuse their position, because it creates a fake group bond. You might have heard of a granfalloon? Religious indoctrination creates this, and human psychology creates and in-group versus out-group mindset with respect to the association. Authority figures then proceed to abuse this because the in-group is innately trusted more, respected more, seen as better or more friendly.
Think of it like this: take a room full of random strangers with nothing in common. In this case each person is rightly weary of each other in terms of trust. Now instil a religion into them all, the same religion, and watch as they begin to trust each other a little more. They might not see each other as close friends, but they definitely do not see them as strangers. In some religious traditions they are elevated to kin status. Before the indoctrination and afterwards there has been no change in the individuals' trustworthiness and they are all from random walks of life, so they are all indeed strangers to each other but why should they, after religious indoctrination, suddenly trust each other?
This is how abuse starts, abuse of trust. It's only a small step further until one of them is a leader, and they trust that leader inexplicably, and that leader not having truly earned that trust abuses it. It can go even further as the out-group is cast as a scapegoat, untrustworthy.
Then you get countries like America. No respect or care for anybody. It's not just authorities who are corrupt there - nearly everybody is corrupt. Atleast with religion the general public is good and some authorities are corrupt. In places like America - everybody is a little evil. And authorities still manage to abuse their powers even though it's constitution is against doing so. Think why.
This is principally what I'm arguing against. I get the impression that you were fed misinformation against the out-group to you, the irreligious, and so you make a spurious argument of the type I'm arguing against in the first place.
Religion is slowly being found to be more of a cancer to society than anything else. I don't expect it will ever die, but it is becoming more and more obsolete in its purpose.
Put people of all different races in the same room - but have a room where they're all the same race and see how religion plays the same role as race. It's the community effect - being more comfortable with people who you deem to be similar to you. I don't think there's anything wrong with that.
The problem is that you haven't really seen real religion. The way western society follows religion is a fucking joke. Especially America, if not UK aswell. You go to place where religion is followed better. My experience with Christianity is limited out of UK, but I can garauntee you that the European countries probably follow the religion a lot differently.
End of the day I'm sure 90% of your answer is directed towards christianity and islam.
If people lived with the Hindu mentality and religion I can garauntee you - I bet everybody on this planet's life on it... the world would be a much much better place. The record speaks for itself.
This is principally what I'm arguing against. I get the impression that you were fed misinformation against the out-group to you, the irreligious, and so you make a spurious argument of the type I'm arguing against in the first place.
Religion is slowly being found to be more of a cancer to society than anything else. I don't expect it will ever die, but it is becoming more and more obsolete in its purpose.
I went through a phase where I claimed I was atheist. In general it was because I was brainwashed liberally and thought smart people had to be athiest, liberal, freedom loving etc. But my opinions have changed and I see the world clearer. Religion at the moment is critically needed much more than before.
Strongly religious communities and societies are far better off than those with weak community and religious values. However I would also say that a strong community (with morals and values) is more important than religion - although I don't think you can have a community without religion.
I just want to see if you agree with this -
My arguments are based on my experiences of eastern religions especially dharmic religions - and so out opinions of the benefits and realities of religion are completely different from one another and until we can actually share our experiences or explain them it will nearly be impossible to argue against one another.
Put people of all different races in the same room - but have a room where they're all the same race and see how religion plays the same role as race. It's the community effect - being more comfortable with people who you deem to be similar to you. I don't think there's anything wrong with that.
Which is my point. Religion causes divisions among people by placing them into groups which share only a label, while the beliefs are bits of dogma instead of deep philosophies. To use an example you might appreciate, there are groups of atheists who band together as if they are in a common group. However, atheism is a lack of belief in god, there is no more depth to it than that. This is why atheism clubs have to attach "freethinker" or "humanism" philosophies in order to deeply associate people otherwise they fail.
The problem is that you haven't really seen real religion. The way western society follows religion is a fucking joke. Especially America, if not UK aswell. You go to place where religion is followed better. My experience with Christianity is limited out of UK, but I can garauntee you that the European countries probably follow the religion a lot differently.
Not at all. I know about all sorts of religions. I also know that they all operate on the same basic mechanisms: unprovable assumptions that must be taken on faith, rituals which are tied to the supernatural, trust in authority, and spreading the doctrine.
End of the day I'm sure 90% of your answer is directed towards christianity and islam.
Christianity and Islam steal the spotlight but that doesn't mean the other religions are automatically clean.
If people lived with the Hindu mentality and religion I can garauntee you - I bet everybody on this planet's life on it... the world would be a much much better place. The record speaks for itself.
Sects would emerge across the world as authority figures abuse mistrust of differences in heterodox practices, the differences emerge because culture evolves and diversifies as barriers form to sharing cultural values, the same thing happens to religions. Violence would emerge as sects battle with each other or persecute each other. Each sect will still have people who are very different from each other, tied together because of idiosyncratic dogma that doesn't define the person.
I went through a phase where I claimed I was atheist. In general it was because I was brainwashed liberally and thought smart people had to be athiest, liberal, freedom loving etc. But my opinions have changed and I see the world clearer. Religion at the moment is critically needed much more than before.
This statement makes no sense. Brainwashing implies that you must accept doctrine in a conditioned state. Liberalism and atheism do not benefit from this.
It sounds like a hindsight bias to me.
Strongly religious communities and societies are far better off than those with weak community and religious values. However I would also say that a strong community (with morals and values) is more important than religion - although I don't think you can have a community without religion.
It can be observed even now that strongly religious communities do not benefit from their religion directly. That is to say, if the communities are fair in their morals and ethics it is because of the community's culture or history, with the religion not playing an active role. Religion serves as a cement, it makes communities and cultures inflexible to change, which is often a problem because it is a rare community that doesn't need to improve or update its cultural values.
My arguments are based on my experiences of eastern religions especially dharmic religions - and so out opinions of the benefits and realities of religion are completely different from one another and until we can actually share our experiences or explain them it will nearly be impossible to argue against one another.
This is true if we are having a theological debate, or a debate upon religious culture. If we have a debate from the perspective of religious deconstruction then it doesn't matter what our experiences are because at this level all religions are equally accessible to be torn apart and scrutinised.
This says it all. Your views on religion are not only inexperienced and ill-informed, but blinded and biased.
You base your assumptions of religion on the one bad apple out of the 9999 good apples. You continuously choose to base your mistrust of religion on the one paedophilic catholic priest rather than the devoted fundraising buddhist monk.
It can be observed even now that strongly religious communities do not benefit from their religion directly. That is to say, if the communities are fair in their morals and ethics it is because of the community's culture or history, with the religion not playing an active role.
Give me one example where religion doesn't play an active role in their culture and history.
I also know that they all operate on the same basic mechanisms: unprovable assumptions that must be taken on faith, rituals which are tied to the supernatural, trust in authority, and spreading the doctrine.
No they dont...
TBH I can't even bothered to go further with this. You can't even see the whole picture and instead continuously scrutinise a bad brushmark.
Start another debate. Base it entirely on dharmic religions. Then scrutinise them. Let's see how far they go from there.
This says it all. Your views on religion are not only inexperienced and ill-informed, but blinded and biased.
You base your assumptions of religion on the one bad apple out of the 9999 good apples. You continuously choose to base your mistrust of religion on the one paedophilic catholic priest rather than the devoted fundraising buddhist monk.
It's funny, before I had this debate with you I was reading about a Pakistani Muslim who was going to explode a car bomb in Times Square, before that I was reading about the Lord's Resistance Army and their massacres. Africa seems rife with this sort of violence because of various religious groups battling for power, like the Somalian Muslims and Christians exchanging violence and trying to have supremacy. Then there are Clerics who obstruct vaccination efforts in Northern Africa by claiming that the polio vaccines cause impotence or are some sort of western plot. Roman Catholics are spreading rumours that condoms have HIV in them, or holes. Now moving on to South Asia we see bombings regularly happening in India by Muslims and (amongst other liberation groups) in Pakistan by different sects. In Malaysia and Singapore we see conflicts between the Muslims and Christians because of Islamic law and Christian values, and just recently a long dispute ended over a newspaper offending some Muslims. As we go north we see that China is suppressing religious exercise as part of its attempt to hold political supremacy, which is a shame because their state ideology is so authoritarian. North Korea has a personality cult surrounding their leader and his father. Japan seems like a perfect icon though, because despite having a religious history and culture, violence isn't nearly the problem there as it is in the west. Their Shinto and Buddhist beliefs seem to fit in and accent their modern culture.
These are the things I've read about just in the last six to eight months. I'm more than well versed in world news, and I don't just look at the "bad apple" in religion. I see a very big picture and the overriding theme is that religion is unnecessary in civil societies, merely an artefact or tradition, in uncivil societies religion becomes a political tool (what happened to it being about enlightenment, huh?) or even worse it becomes a sectarian recruitment force (apparently people really fall for "god wants X" mumbo jumbo). When it comes to charities, religion has a history of collecting wealth for this purpose but one wonders if it's because of the religion or because of altruism of people.
In other words, I see a lot of average people doing bad things because of religious hatred, and I see a lot of people doing things who are religious where the religion seems auxiliary. Why would you want to keep the religion if it has the possibility of instilling hatred, when the good can be done without religion?
Give me one example where religion doesn't play an active role in their culture and history.
South America seems full of this. Many Catholics who are true believers and devoted. However the laws in the countries there are apart from Catholic edicts and rules.
TBH I can't even bothered to go further with this. You can't even see the whole picture and instead continuously scrutinise a bad brushmark.
I asked you to provide examples of good that religion brings. You never listed any.
I don't have to say anything. My last post still applies to this post.
Like how 1 pakistani muslim exploding a car bomb makes all pakistani muslims evil.
Right?
Please.....
You didn't read what I said. Maybe a simple but congruent example will appeal to you. Organised crime is a driving force in a number of countries, it even gets immunity in some countries because it entangles itself with government. Organised crime syndicates have their own manifestos and rules, as well as their own punishments for breaking these rules. I would be pointing out how organised crime, despite some of the good things it has been behind historically (like supporting the Allies in world war 2, and producing order in city slums where law enforcement avoids a presence), it still makes ordinary people capable of acting very violently or destructively. You would be the one arguing to me that I'm only looking at the bad, and that one mob boss performing a hit doesn't make all of his underlings evil.
What you seem not to understand is that all religions make people trust in authorities regardless of their character. They divide people based on how your parents indoctrinated you, instead of your actual interests. Look at India, for an example of this. India is a nation with hundreds of millions of people, of different cultures and ethnicities, but they are all citizens of that country, or ought to think of themselves in those terms but what you have is a country divided along religious lines. Muslims receive separate laws from Hindus, for example. They should all have the same laws, that is what a secular country would do. There are bombings that occur by separatists, and by Muslims who want Sharia implemented for all (again, only the religion would make a person act this way) and yet you ignore this flatly. If these religions didn't exist, India would have one law for all, and bombings wouldn't occur by radicals seeking medieval fascism. Religion makes a simple situation complicated and you just ignore it like it's a rare, non-representative occurrence.
but what you have is a country divided along religious lines.
Have you been to India? Do you know how much of a shit the ordinary person gives and how much of a division religion is? If you want lessons in religious tolerance - go to this country. See it for yourself. Reading, watching in America is completely different to touching, smellling, feeling, hearing and looking in India. EXPERIENCE it... then you will actually know the truth. Yes there are a few idiots here and there who want to impose their religious beliefs onto others. But there are only a few idiots. This doesn't make ALL OF THE ENTIRE HISTORY AND PEOPLE OF RELIGION bad. Lol. And again it's muslims.
Religion makes a simple situation complicated
That's an immensly outrageous lie.
Think about it. Because it's you you'll have to think about it harder. Religion makes things complicated? REALLY?
Your arguments are mostly against Christianity and Islam. Don't point the finger at religion though.
That is my reasoning, pick it to pieces if you like but it's why I have such an axe to grind with organised religion.
Nah, I too have an axe to grind. But I grind my axe upon the deeds of both the Church and State, specifically, everyone who justifies their crimes by authority of Church or State.
(We are few in number compared to the whole of each. Grind on!)
Forgot, the theory of the Big Bang, as named by Hoyle, is a theory of a religious man.
Perhaps, there are men of both Church and State who do not deserve to be accused by the crimes of their brethren.
Nah, I too have an axe to grind. But I grind my axe upon the deeds of both the Church and State, specifically, everyone who justifies their crimes by authority of Church or State.
(We are few in number compared to the whole of each. Grind on!)
Forgot, the theory of the Big Bang, as named by Hoyle, is a theory of a religious man.
Perhaps, there are men of both Church and State who do not deserve to be accused by the crimes of their brethren.
I agree fully, but I want to note that I tend to attack the authorities behind said churches or states instead of the individual followers, with the notable exceptions being when the followers are as much to blame as the authority (for example suicide bombers and Islamists in Islam, who perpetrate crimes against humanity as much as the clerics and imams who interpret the religion in a way that is oppressive), or when a specific follower isn't critically thinking and needs some sense.
About Hoyle, I understand that religious men and women have made contributions to science, though it doesn't always follow that they made their discoveries because of religious dedication or inspiration.
I tend to have issues with both but I agree that the one justifying the hatred of the many is the one to take the most issue with, because this person actively discourages attempts to reach the group and make them peaceful.
OOPS! I meant former. But I too agree that one man/group should never have that power and they who are the superlative form of that thirst can never be satiated.
Not necessarily. I actually considered that possibility in your earlier reply I disputed. He simply had foregone the option to list the good, and it is completely possible for something to have unfathomable badness while only bringing about a tiny portion of countable goodness.
I was referring to the failure to establish quantity, not quality.
Inumerable is a quality, not a quantity. The debate is quantitative, not qualitative.
I was referring to the failure to establish quantity, not quality.
Inumerable is a quality, not a quantity. The debate is quantitative, not qualitative.
Correct, but surely you can see how comparing a quantity against an innumerable quality, would favour the innumerable quality as greater? For example, five being less than infinity.
The same attribute is predicated of the subjects. Consequently the following proposition is valid:
Both the good and harm of religion is innumerable.
Can we therefore debate whether or not religion causes more harm than good if both the good and harm are quantified by use of the predication ‘innumerable’? Not reasonably.
Ergo this debate is only reasonably possible if both sides can determine a factual quantity, versus assuming a quality as an argument for an unknown quantity, not to mention other illogical problems.
The same attribute is predicated of the subjects. Consequently the following proposition is valid:
Both the good and harm of religion is innumerable.
Can we therefore debate whether or not religion causes more harm than good if both the good and harm are quantified by use of the predication ‘innumerable’? Not reasonably.
I understand and agree completely, however I wasn't aware that one of your major premises was that the good of religion is innumerable. I was always under the impression that it was "innumerable versus numerable" so I followed from that. In other words I was arguing a different point and our disagreement really wasn't one.
There are a few people on here who can be systematic, for example a user called "Casper3912" used this type of thinking on the subject of abortion and determining the weaknesses of some arguments.
well, so because something, in theory, created to help people, is allowed to do immense harm, as stated several times below, as long as it also helps people. This metaphor is probably quite flawed, but it's good enough for me: If you would think about setting a village on fire, because fire warms the cold people on the street, even though countless people might burn in their homes, would you do it. The fire helped people from dying from the cold, but also burned people to death in the process, so would it not be a better idea to set controlled fires (like campfires) or to build shelters, if the purpose of the idea is to help people and to prevent harm.
hummmmmmmmmmmm the crusades that killed hundreds of thousands if not millions. the conquering of Africa and attempted conquering if Europe by Islam........killed millions and the converting of the Americas by Spain killed millions more. all sounds very very nice and there are many many more examples through history. more people have been killed in the name of god than in the name of greed or power combined.
yes, christianity has caused the crusades, the spanish inquisition, and countless deaths for witch craft and other bullshit lllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll
I was lost in the Darkest parts of my own wicked ways, spiraling down a path of destruction leading me away from His Almighty ways, and all the while im going down ONLY ONE, He could save me. No matter how far i looked on this lowly planet, i never once found a soul who could manage, to show me the love that i truly needed, because on this planet aint nothing but hate and contempt have been breeded. the lowly snake slithering as he goes through the towns of man looking for lowly lowly souls, to feed on so that it could plant it's evil seeds, and so that throughout the generations nothing but evil and hate we could recieve, but those where the ways of the past, my brothers and sisters. the devil had a hold of us and he managed through our parents, down through the generations His ways have been lost, and because of the us, the devil has turned and tossed, We can All be saved, all we need is Thanksgiving, to the One who Above, for All of His Givings. The devils trying to stop me right now as i speak, but Faithful to the Lord and willit He, that i may be meek. Because it is He not i that gives you this message but it is The One that we All should seek. i know that it is hard to find Rest, as we all go through this test some call a game, every single last one of us, probably, training to gain and retain our fame. But That is not what this life is about, i have a Strong feeling that we are All getting our Water from the wrong wrong spout. because thats all the devil has for us is a little bit, of pleasure, then comes the pain. steady feeding our bodies what i see now Is Insane. because ya'll hafto see that we are all carnally minded, and This is the reason The LORD, us he has blinded, binding, ourselves to our own flesh, so that eventually we would All fail this Test. but know that The Lord, He loves us, and wishes nothing but the best, and all He wants is for us to Love Him all the while through this Test. some wonder why we see nadoes and quakes, He needs ya'll to know that its Ya'lls souls that He is trying to shake. and bake if you will, so the devil may not have his fill, to letchya'll know that there is NONE like that ALMIGHTY AND ALL POWERFULL ONE. i say full because Hes filled with Love, like None that we have seen on this lowly earth, but now that i have SEEN, my Eyes have been UnBlinded, and now it is He, He who signs this, letter so maybe that some of Ya'll could listen, and Maybe get the Message that He is trying to dish, out of His spout, so that ya'll might be fed, with all of His Love, His Water, And His Bread. Don't for a second think any of Ya'll are living, All of ya'll are dead and for the devil are you "living" as i sit here and do this all of the "dome" just know that it is Not me and that this is His tomb. He is singing through me in these words and this song, so that maybe one day we All can be free all the day long, and ya'll can say its cheesy if ya'll want, but just know the devil in you he does flaunt x) i had to stop and show ya'll how i felt about that one, cuz its the truth, and right now i have a Strong feeling He is swinging harder than that brother Babe Ruth, or ballin harder than micheal jordan, and in this song he Is Playing His Accordian. Ya'll just need to know that He is our Guardian, and right now im flying Higher than any single air jordan, because my love i gave to Him more than any of Ya'll so i guess i can say more than them. But dont getit twizted like boi's if ya'll know, that me and moreover Him, have a lot to show. we are all brothers and sisters, but i should call us the missers, because we all fail to see the smaller things in this world, without even thinking twice, what truly brings a man alot of happiness or to see the pain that ALOT of us have in us. i know that we are all hurting on the inside, and for ya'll who say we dont, Boi, you know that is a lie, because only with Him and not that evil leech from down south, can we truly fly. higher than the highest of trees or the tallest of mountains, But in Him we Have to trust, so that We may Drink From The One and Only True fountain, only because of Him can i do this for days, and its Because i gave Him my love, thanksgiving, and praise. so now that i have seen what it is truly to be Man, Men of God, all these hater out there who bout to say something aint nuthing more than sod. sorry if it dont make sense, just know that me and Him the latter first, We are just trying to give His children, ya'll some mother lovin cents. forgive me if i pause for no longer am i a vulgar man life is just a beach, and Now, He is playing in the sand, hopefully in the minds of the young, the daughters and sons, i have my holster, and now the Lord is my Gun, Shining Brighter, than a million suns, times two, because His love is True, actually make that twenty twenty, because He is aplenty, in me in you and All, i just hope that ya'll can hear His call, so that maybe that ya'll may not fall, into the Pit, but right now i can say the devil is probably having a fit, of anxiety cuz he is losing his "children" just know that we are God's and with me He has been pilfering, in my mind day and night, as i have been in my room trying to stay out of sight, of ya'll because all it seems like to me, that nothing to ya'll it would please, more, than to see one of your own fellow brother get shot and fall. when i look around me i dont see any real love, this evil surrounds me, but Now i DO NOT CARE, because the Lord, THE LORD, HE has found me. so now ya'll cannot touch, because with His love, im about to bust. with loving Faith and Trust, i put in Him, so that i can be led away from this life of sin, and Now that i have His Trust, my brotha's and sista's, not just the black ones, comeon now, that just is not a must, there is no such thing man, all that is, is nothing more than an evil thought, brought up in vain, so that maybe a man's soul, that leech, can be bought. Quit being evil, for it is Love, that should be sought, out so once again we may be fed from His Spout, for only He can give us what we need so that in the end we may succeed. my brothers and sisters all we need to do is Believe, and then, Anything, together, WE CAN ACHIEVE. this is an ode to ya'll so in hopes once again that ya'll may hear The Call, and will not fall, so one day me, ya'll, and The Almighty,Perfect, like a prefect without the er, Omnipotent, and Patient ONE, that together we May All Ball. and they keep telling me to stop, but i just cant my brothers me and Him are headed to the top, and right now i got The Heart Of A Lion, King, and pray tell me my brothers and sisters who are reading, what single Beast can stop that king? of the jungle we are running but with Him we can be free. out into the open pasture we all can roam, just know this is not me, and that this is His Tomb. its wierd how they're spelled alike but do not rhyme, im talking bout bomb my brothers, and its One of a Kind. in the Hopes that this petty rhyme, can help lead the black sheep, away from the Blind, being themselves, for who? tell me can save them from that? if you dont answer right then your a part of this blight that runs rampant through the streets, evil im talking about and all it wants to do is eat, your souls because it is angry at the Living God, hahahaha for it is nothing more than a sod, on His Cleat as He is Running, Hoping that some of these Words, hit you right in the stomach, and make you sick, but not you, im talking about the evil you, for we are all children of God, but we have made ourselves nothing more than a sod =( i say with a heavy heart, because all this time we have been playing the devil, his part, but with Him it is nothing but a fart, because He Forgives, and Only Through Him may we EVER, get the chance to Live, and im not talking about on the earth, im talking about another, and maybe one day you can see and i can Truly call you my Brother, for there is Life in Death, but it is only gained through this life which is a test, just know that when we die, if you have lived righteously, on that day you will Fly, for the Lord will Breathe His Breath in you when you die and like i said before You Will Fly, but not if you keep eating from the devil's table, for you can only eat from one, and i hope its Not the devil's table. for if we Eat from Him, we can All go back into His Stable, and only in doing that can we Ever truly be stable, only only if, we are eating from, The Living God's Table. and for ya'll who are sitting at your computers steadily dissin Him, i pray for you, because it you are missin, Him and the bigger picture, just know right now im taking a Big Gulp From His Ultimate Pitcher, not one from the MLB, and if you are listening then i pray that you sea, i mean see, but with Him we can fly over the one before, and higher than mike, dunk it in, right for a score, but not for 2 for it is for 3, because He is Holy in me, but atm holy in you, because you missing some parts, we all need to change, so that we may play His Part, that He intended from the Beginning, because only With Him can we ever be winning, but hahahaha not as long as we are sinning. for that is not the way that we was meant to walk, With Him we was mean to Walk and Talk. once again i say this way i, used to, but we choose to live, is insane in the membrane, but He is using me as His Template, lol or templar whichever you prefer, just know that He is Prefect, ha just without the errrr. as i sit here steadily dissin em i mean the demons in the minds of the children of the One and Only, God Who Is Kind, i hope that they depart, so we can All gaze upon The Divine, not like wine or watch, i aint lil wayne, just know that i feel like im the only one who is sane. because i AM NOT PERFECT, do not get the wrong message for that would hurt me, only He is, and He just wants some love from His Kids, but for some odd reason... we still choose to do the evil leeches bids, for i feel he has sucked to much from us, all of our blood, i mean soul, it has tucked from us, and right now He is aiming at it with a Big Ol' Blunderbuss. to shoot it and unleech it, from His Children's Soul's so one day maybe we can gaze upon, That Wonderful City Of Gold, and dont letit peak your in ter ests, for if you do your not getting whats bests, from this test that He has beset, for our minds to ponder and think on, maybe in some of the hearts out there this message is shining, for He is a Beacon of Light, to shine out all the evils, and end this ugly, hateful blight, that courses through our vains, that nasty garbage that makes us feel insane, because no one is living right, and for That NONE is sane. you can talk and sit there and chatter, but i pray and hope that none get fatter, and im not talking because of mcdonalds, im talking about your ego and pride, because We Alll NEED to push that aside, all we seem to do is breed hate and contempt, sitting there looking for another hurt sould to feed on, thinking it makes us content, but just know NOW people, lolol all your doing is letting the devil be your PIMP! ha ha ha i think that really funny, because in the words of man that just makes ya'll some ho's, and please forgive my trespasses my sisters and brothers, for my vulgar words, because i Did Not mean to hurt, He's just trying to keep our faces from being rubbed in the dirt. but it really shouldnt matter because we are mud, and from One we all came, so can i not call ya'll blood??? nah im not talking about them two glock shotta's, im talking bout from The One Who Has Always Got Us, not us as in the navy, i mean us as in the ones who might sit on that bus, the one going to school and to the ones who drool in class, and all of us who needs a kick in the, pause, ya'll know what i mean, im just sitting here trying not be obscene, all im trying to do is get the bigger picture, through ya'll minds so that maybe one day, we can All WALK IN THE LORDS WAY. forgive me if i make any of ya'll mad, if i do know that i Am sad, but how about ya'll just go to the store and go and grab on of them happy hefty bags, you know i meant glad if you didnt you are simple, and forgive me as i sit here and bust this pimple, lol sorry that was nasty just know that i didnt, and know that we are all fake, and its time for some rhino plasty, or however its spelled im just hoping some hearts will melt, like the plastic we are, and become melded into flesh, as i sit here and type in this Soul Food test, for if ya'll can't hear me then your hearts are so cold, forgive me as i trespass, because, uhm, i Am not trying to be bold, im just tryna through some fia atcha hearts, in the hopes that you may leave the Dark, ness not loch just in case thats watchu thought, all you gotta do is leave your flesh behind, and know that He is the one who Should Be Sought, out so we can drank From His Spout, cuz the Lord Knows, man it has been a drought. we are all so thirsty, but in order to be filled its The Lord who must come firsty x) just know that me and Him are going Stooopid, and for those who are real maaan i thoughtchu knew it. and if you dont i pray you haven't already blew it, up i mean your ego, like a balloon, just know right now i feel like taz boi, yup them looney toones, or tunes whichever you prefer, just know that He is Prefect, just without the err. and i say pre because He was always here, yes before you and me, but with Him i wanna letchu know that we can all be as pure, and as white as the snow, just like powder we can all be melted, i mean melded into the beings we were meant to be, so one day we may fly free as a dove, Right over the sea, so that we all can reach New Jerusalem, yup just right where we was all meant to be, that is the Golden City for those who did not, know, im just hoping that one day we can All be as pure as the snow, because the evil has taunted and flaunted and given us a show, to peak i mean perk up our ears and it, that leech i mean, gave us nothing but fears, fears of ourselves and one another, fears from our sisters and daughter, Father, and brothers, but we have a right to Fear the Living God, because to Him we have all become a sod, He is sorrowful and cries as we follow, the evil being, who was never meant to be followed, and i felt His pain at one point in time, yes i Am talking About the Divine, we both cried together, in my room, because of the little things we miss, something just as small as, a heartfelt kiss... for it is the little things that bring us the greatest joy, not some diamond chain, or a, wind up toy, the biggest thing of all that should, is His Love, should bring us the Greatest joy, in the world, for thats all it is man just cars and noise, all the long going our way, Missing the sweetest noise, zes ya'll know what i mean, im talking about the One who is Never obscene, for He is Just And Right, in each and every single way, and for our sins my borhters and sisters, we have to pay, but do not fret for it is never to late, I think we all need to call upon The Divine, and we should All go on a date, do not worry for on this date there is no rape, or murder, or hate, for that is of the devil, and Your Soul it will take, there is no worries once you follow Him, we should all be hand in hand as we walk down this path, called, life Never having to worry about no pain or strife, or for a bigger picture His Wrath, but ONLY IF WE DRINK FROM HIS PITCHER. for The All Powerful and Righteous Wrath, only comes when you stray from His Path, it is there to show us our wrongs...can you feel His Soul as i sit here and Sing His song? and with Him i will NEVER fall, because with my Brother, I will always Hear His Call. i say we but it is Him, who say these words to in the hopes, that those who have an Ear to listen may never Fall, into the Pit, all you have to do is have Faith, Follow The Ten, Believe, and never EVER Quit, for in order to gain His All Perfect and Good Graces, we have to eliminate ALL the Hate and evil, in all sorts of places, i have a feeling this song was wrote long before, just in His mind and now in mine, and i sing His song in the Hopes, that you follow Him and not any of these "popes" for no hope lies in them, lol and if you truly think aboutit that actually rhymed, just know that im thinking of Him, foremost, but ya'll too as i steadily write This Rhyme, it comes from above yup, Straight From the Divine, in the Hopes that one day ya'll can SEE, exactly it was that we was missing, so we can All fly over the sea. Man this thing is long but i should Say God, because this is His Rhyme, and not from a sod, like me or you, if you real you can feel its True, as His Sword aims at the hearts of His good, flying Straight and Through, lol i mean True, but them if you can follow my friend, all we gotta do is sing Praises and Thanksgiving to Him, until the very end, and give Him all of our love, Because WITHOUT HIM, ha There WOULD BE NO LOVE, all there would be is pain and suffering, and i hope that the ones who are, suffer, i mean acating, Might actually stop and take the time to sit there and be debating, against the devil of course, cuz all it wants to do is, lead us, right, or left, but straight off our course. Lord Please Forgive me, if i am being coarse just know that i am your back, and You Are My Horse, lol ya'll might think He's heavy but He's really not, and i Love Him till Death, i mean Life, cuz i have found It, but back to the point, because i HE HAS TAUGHT, never went to church or none of that, maybe when i was younger but none of that, for our minds our are churches, ha gotit backwards but i feel as tall as the burches, talking bout them trees man im over the seas man, just know i cant, wait, My Father, until You Kick Over My Can Man x) aw man i thoughit was funny, because he's One Cool Dude, and i am His, Bunny, i mean Collie, and know that as i, i mean He, but as i bark, that i have a Strong feeling, that i am playing my Part, or His i prefer the latter but the choice is yurs, because it is His Puzzle, and i am the last part, i cant be for certain because the Knowledge is His, but im just trying to bring His Black Sheep back, you know i mean His KIDS, He thoughtit was funny, But ya'll best Believe that He NOR i the first comes first, but neither one of us is No, pause, Dummy, lol but if you choose you can beat and bite, whatever you do just know it is out of spite, and i dont capitilize because its an evil word, just know me and HIM, are trying to end this wrongful blight, and saying these words i Hope that maybe, just maybe some can be given the Sight, that HE intended us to have, right, from Go, talking bout monopoly,lol but no no more, from the start maaaan all HE ever wanted was us to give our heart, which is HIS, because He gave to us, All that is HIS, HE just Wanted someone to talk to man, thats why HE made HIS Kids, HE was all alone, and then HE built, a Beautiful place for us, and HIM, to walk and talk all the while, just laughing and talking, seeing eachother smile =) because HE is our FATHER, He's not as mean ha as ya'll would believe, just know that HE TRULY IS ONE BENEVOLENT KING. lol ha ha i think this is funny, He knows what im talking about, cuz this is all of the top of the dome with barely a second to pause, Just Know the THE LION KING, Has Opened HIS Claws, Blessed be the children who took the time to listen, to the message that a, and The King is steadily dishin, i say a because i am one too, but know that im a servant, and from a Seed i did Grew, i dont care if it makes no sense to ya'll because i have heard the Lords Call, and they, they know who they are, are always listening, and as He types, through, me i have a feeling they are about to call, Prayer is the Best Wireless Connection X) aint no service down here got that type of Connection, i just hope that i get to see some of ya'll at that intersection, i mean Crossroads, bone thugz n harmony, they said it first, man thats the song man and if you feel their soul, then maybe you should hurt, because those bois on the streets back in the day, all they was doing was searching for some Peace, but in the streets, the oppressors, following the devil, have no love for us in the slums, just know that we All have a Holster and God Is our Gun, we dont need no metal, for The Lord our issues HE will settle, all you gotta do is Have some Faith, saying this in hope that some dont see any wraiths, talking demons people come now and please listen, as the Lord spits his song and these Words HE is dishin, out yup you getting it word of mouf, lol or mouth whichever you prefer just DONT follow that lowly snake, yup the one down south, it might try and offer pleasure and happiness butits all fake, HA what do ya'll expect from a lowly snake? remeber eve as she sat under that tree? sitting there thinking and feeling the breeze? the snake spoke in her Ear temptation it did bring, and after teel me WHO did she fear? she had a split second of happiness and thats all it can give, and after that she felt the WRATH which is ONLY HIS, lol i hope that ya'll see, the way we live people, it just wasn't meant to be, i have a feeling that there all up there laughing, with, not at me as i type out His message, and i pray ALMIGHTY FATHER, THE ONES WHO HAVE AN EAR TO LISTEN PLEASE FATHER PLEASE LET THE HEAR. and the ones who dont i pray you dont hit him hard, maybe just a little tap, just like Babe Ruth, on that baseball card x) Peace be with you my sisters and brothers, just know that HIS LOVE IS LIKE NO OTHER, GOD BLESS ALL WHO FINISHED, AND I PRAY YOUR SOULS NEVER, DIMINISH. ONE HEART IS ALL, AND WITH THAT HEART WE CAN NEVER FALL, lol i said i was finished, but i dont think HE is as you can tell this words are not mine, THEY COME FROM THE UPPER BEING, yup THE DIVINE!!! i think im going to cut Him short and please Forgive me, because i know HE could go all day, BECAUSE I CAN FEEL HIM IN ME.
So to sum this up, you're suggesting that by believing in an over-bearing, omnipotent presence who will relegate BILLIONS of people to pain and suffering to a degree beyond human comprehension, and maintain that level of pain and suffering for all eternity - and by claiming you hold love for this entity of such massive discompassion, hate, torture, and willful sadism, that you have become a better person?