People should not use swastika as their avatar
Because of its use by Nazi Germany, the swastika since the 1930s has been largely associated with Nazism and white supremacy in most of the Western countries. As a result, all of its use, or its use as a Nazi or hate symbol is prohibited in some jurisdictions. Because of the stigma attached to the symbol, many buildings that have contained the symbol as decoration have had the symbol removed. Steven Heller, of the School of Visual Arts, has argued that from the moment it was "misappropriated" by the Nazis, it became a mark and weapon of hate, and could not be redeemed.
(Steven Heller, "The Swastika: Symbol Beyond Redemption?", Allworth Press, New York, 2008, passim but especially p. 161-9)
Swastika are bad
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Swastika are not bad
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In the western world the Swastika has been strongly associated with Nazism and related ideologies such as Fascism and White Supremacism since the 1930s. Its use is now largely stigmatized in the west; it has notably been outlawed in Germany Side: Swastika are bad
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Ok, so how does any of that info lead to the conclusion: "people should not sue swastikas as their avatar"? what are the conditionals, the conjunctions, the disjunctions, the value critiera, etc which leads to the conclusion? So far you have given info, do you have an argument? Side: Swastika are not bad
I have tried to give an argument, but I will restate it here. I propose that there are only two reasons to use a swastika as an avatar: 1. Because you are a Nazi Sympathizer or, 2. You don't care about hurting the feelings of Jewish people, or dependents of those who fought and died in WWII. Your desire for attention is more important than their feeling. You want so desperately to be unique, counter-cultural, that you don't care that Nazis shoved living men women and children into mass graves, gas chambers, and ovens. All this is just a joke for them. Please tell me any other reason why someone would use a swastika as their avatar. Side: Swastika are bad
It is embarrassing and de-legitimizing for this website to allow people to have swastikas as their avatar. Normal people won't want to use this website, if you allow people with swastikas to post their avatar everywhere. I know, I know, we want to allow freedom... bla bla bla... We only have 2 options: Allow the crazies to run this site or don't let the crazies run this site. Side: Swastika are bad
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Someone who uses a swastika as their Avatar is either: 1. A nazi supporter or 2. A complete douche bag. Only complete douche bags go around desperately trying to be nonconformist, constantly patting themselves on the back for how clever they are. They are the only people who would use it just to piss people off, so they can come in, and point out some useless fact that it was used by other people before the Nazis. Who freakin cares? Too many people have died too recently (within living Memory who fought the flag of the swastika). Use a yin yang like all the other douche-bags to pat yourself on the back with how clever and Nonconformist you are. You can pat yourself on the back all you want for knowing some useless fact that the swastika might have been used by someone else... According the Urban Dictionary Nonconformist are: “The most retarded, unpleasant conformists alive. In a pathetic attempt to boost their own self-esteem by being "different", nonconformists put down everything that is accepted and liked by mainsteam society. The problem is, this doesn't actually mean they aren't conforming. They're simply conforming to the standards of their counterculture.” To me, that is all the swastika is: a way to shout at the top of your lungs: “Look at me, I’m different”. Well grow up. Too many people have died too recently. Side: Swastika are bad
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What about using the gay symbol (the multicolor rainbow) as their avatar? Or a swastika on the gay symbol. Would that mean that Nazi supporters are gay? Or that gays are a bunch of Nazis? Or a gay branch of the Nazi supporters? Or a Nazi branch of the gay supporters? Why should some symbols be allowed and others not? Who makes these decisions. Would it not be easier to just decide NOT to be offended by any of it? ;) Side: Swastika are not bad
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Someone who uses a swastika as their Avatar is either: 1. A nazi supporter or 2. A complete douche bag. This is complete fascism mate, Ironically guilty of that which you highlight as fault in others. Any more hate propaganda? Any more negative sentiment? It's the fascist way of course. By the way the pyg is the only one that still uses the swastika avatar, so this is basically a personal attack, well, he has been around here a lot longer and is quite respected, and nobody save a few have ever had a problem with it. Side: Swastika are not bad
Re: "Someone who uses a swastika as their Avatar is either: 1. A nazi supporter or 2. A complete douche bag." How is this fascism. I understand that you are able to state your conclusion, but anyone can do that. For instance, I once lived on the son, and the sun is very cold during the month of may... What is more impressive than just saying stupid things is actually being able to back it up. I'll give you the definition of fascism, and lets see if you can explain to me, with actual arguments, how calling someone a douche bag is fascist? Fascism: Fascism is a radical, authoritarian nationalist political ideology. How did my calling someone who uses a swastica a duche bag a fascist? Nazis are fascist: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ Side: Swastika are not bad
I am taking each argument one at a time, so that you can respond to the one that you don't like... my last post gave the definition of a douche bag. Please refute my argument... Don't just call names... I explained why someone with a swastica is a Nazi or a douche bag... all you did is call my a fascist... but you didn't explain why I am a fascist... All you did is call names... I gave actual arguments, that no one has responded to. I gave my belief that someone would only use a swastica because they supported Nazism, or they wanted to be seen as counter-intuitive... All you have done is call me names... No one has disputed my claim that those are the only valid reasons to use a swastica... is so you can pat yourself on the back for being unique, or so you can support nazies... I gave an argument. Please explain to me a a reason for using a swastica that doesn't involve nazism, or doucgh-baggery. Side: Swastika are bad
re: "Any more hate propaganda?" Just saying that something is "hate propaganda" does not make it so. All I said is there is no good reason to have a swastika. You could have explained a valid reason, but instead you chose to call me a fascist. I made a logical argument. If you feel that my logical argument is hate, then you have more problems than I can help. Side: Swastika are bad
Because of its use by Nazi Germany, the swastika since the 1930s has been largely associated with Nazism and white supremacy in most of the Western countries. As a result, all of its use, or its use as a Nazi or hate symbol is prohibited in some jurisdictions. Because of the stigma attached to the symbol, many buildings that have contained the symbol as decoration have had the symbol removed. Steven Heller, of the School of Visual Arts, has argued that from the moment it was "misappropriated" by the Nazis, it became a mark and weapon of hate, and could not be redeemed. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ Side: Swastika are bad
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Ok, so how does any of that info lead to the conclusion: "people should not sue swastikas as their avatar"? what are the conditionals, the conjunctions, the disjunctions, the value critiera, etc which leads to the conclusion? So far you have given info, do you have an argument? Side: Swastika are not bad
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When in jr high I drew a swastika on my notebook with the words' "Surf Rules". It was a surf brand. My mother, having served in WW2 as a WAC had seen human skin purses & lamp shades & the horror that it represents, got really angry & explained what it was about. This is what it represents... innocent people dying the most horrific deaths, people even being accused of being Jewish or helping a friend that was Jewish were murdered & raped in these camps, painful experiments resulting in death of women & unborn twins & children. It isn't a laughing matter the torture that these people have been through because of Hitler & his comrades. Side: Swastika are bad
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While I sympathize with your assessment of the symbol, I disagree with your treatment of ThePyg based purely on his avatar. You are responding to a symbol, not to him. This, in and of itself, is obvious far less egregious than Hitler's treatment of the Jews, but it operates within similar parameters: you are making a blanket assessment of somebody without bothering to know who they are, and allowing it to affect your actions. Refusing to read his arguments in the other debate based purely on what type of person you assume him to be (fueled by nothing more than an avatar) is somewhat childish, and creating this debate due to it just plants the seed for your own intolerance garden. Side: free speech
While I sympathize with your assessment of the symbol, I disagree with your treatment of ThePyg based purely on his avatar. You are responding to a symbol, not to him. This, in and of itself, is obvious far less egregious than Hitler's treatment of the Jews, but it operates within similar parameters: you are making a blanket assessment of somebody without bothering to know who they are, and allowing it to affect your actions. Refusing to read his arguments in the other debate based purely on what type of person you assume him to be (fueled by nothing more than an avatar) is somewhat childish, and creating this debate due to it just plants the seed for your own intolerance garden. I couldn't have said it better myself. Side: Swastika are not bad
I have asked those who use the symbol many times to explain themselves. How is it that you say I will not listen to them, when they will not speak? I made an assertion. I believe that those who use the swastika are either Nazi sympathizers or so un-sensative to those around them that they qualify themselves into the category that I describe as douche-bags. This is my conlcusion. I put out my argument. I am waiting for people to explain why I am wrong. That there are sensative respectful reasons for using a swastika. Please explain to me how you can be a cool person, who is nice and respects other people, respects Jews, respects holocoust survivors, respects american service men who died in WWII... explain to me how someone can be a cool person, and also use a swastika as their avatar. My proposition is that it is impossible to be a cool person and also use a swastika as an avatar: that that one act alone defines you as a douche-bag. Our actions define us. Are you telling me that you can not judge people from their actions? Side: Swastika are bad
How is it that you say I will not listen to them, when they will not speak? Ummm, probably because when the whole thing started, you said to ThePyg: I can't really consider reading something someone who has a swastika as their personal image. Want to try again? I believe that those who use the swastika are either Nazi sympathizers or so un-sensative to those around them that they qualify themselves into the category that I describe as douche-bags. Your absolutionist view is cut of the same cloth as those who think all gays are child molesters, or everyone who listens to rap is untrustworthy. And once again, you aren't responding to the person, you are reacting to the symbol. I guess we could just ban all symbols that might offend somebody on this site. Like say, the cross, which is one of the base symbols provided by the site itself. My proposition is that it is impossible to be a cool person and also use a swastika as an avatar: that that one act alone defines you as a douche-bag. This site is not about whose cool and who isn't. Its about debating. Personally, you don't sound particularly "cool" by my definition, but I still read your responses and evaluate them on on their merit and logical viability. Which, aside from this one topic, is usually fairly strong. Our actions define us. Are you telling me that you can not judge people from their actions? No, I'm telling you that we shouldn't judge an essentially anonymous online persona based on their avatar. I am also suggesting that giving so much power to a symbol is simply a victory to those who use that symbol. Side: Swastika are not bad
Since mycomrade has decided to copypasta, I shall do the same: Never said that I am using the swastika as a sign of peace or nonconformity or w/e, it seems that you are the type of person who reads too heavily into something. Anyway, this site is built on free speech. So no, I can not be banned for having an offensive avatar. I merely have it because I like how it looks. I like the rainbow flag, and I LOVE right angles. The swastika has 8 of them. L is one of my favorite letters. The Swastika has 4 of them, and depending on how you look at it, you can make even MORE Ls. Cool, right? I also like the direction this particular swastika is facing. Kind of looks like a ninja star being thrown towards the right. I hate it when ninja stars are thrown towards the left. Also, I hate Jews and I am gay. I hope that the gay nazi party will be able to rise up against the Capitalists and their oppression towards the working, homosexual class. At least we can both agree on something, though. You and I both hate the first amendment (for good reason; you don't want people to have swastikas and I don't want Jews to spread their filthy lies about us homosexuals). Side: free speech
I'm not trying to rack up points I'm trying to take issue with your statements one at a time, so we can stay on topic. Of course, as you reply you will also rack up points for each issue. It is not "read[ing] too heavily into something" to be offended by a swastika Side: Swastika are bad
That is totally stupid. The owner of any sight gan ban whomever they want. The created this site, they pay the bills, and it is up to them. Side: Swastika are bad
re: "I merely have it because I like how it looks. I like the rainbow flag, and I LOVE right angles. The swastika has 8 of them. L is one of my favorite letters. The Swastika has 4 of them, and depending on how you look at it, you can make even MORE Ls. Cool, right? I also like the direction this particular swastika is facing. Kind of looks like a ninja star being thrown towards the right. I hate it when ninja stars are thrown towards the left." You think this is a joke? You think this is funny? Side: Swastika are bad
re: Those who don't want swastikas baned on this discussion forum "hate the first amendment" I think this should be made into a new argument. I am late for work, but go ahead. You say all your stupid reasons to support this belief. I'll very briefly say this is not a first amendment issue. The government will allow you to say this, but private citizens can create discussion forums with whatever reason they want. If I wanted to ban anyone who used the letter "E" I could create a forum, and have that as a rul. I love the first amendment. I love that our parents and grandparents fought Nazis under the banner of the swastika so you can have the right to pat yourself on the back for being counter-intuitive and say look at me I'm so different! Side: Swastika are bad
I get called a "Comrade" because I decided to move my argument about your swastica? You had posted on one of my other post, and questioned your use of the swastica as your avatar. I decided to move my post to a new topic... I didn't know it would cause a masive freak out, but if you don't want to talk about what the swastica stands for, and you just want to freak out because some one uses a very useful button built into every keyboard, then go right ahead... lets not debate the issue, but call me a fascist because I use the copy and paste button. Way to go. Side: Swastika are bad
I am not saying they don't have a right to do it. However, I also believe that the owner of this website has the right to remove people who are extremely offensive. I find the swastika extremely offensive. Someone wrote the following: "When in jr high I drew a swastika on my notebook with the words' "Surf Rules". It was a surf brand. My mother, having served in WW2 as a WAC had seen human skin purses & lamp shades & the horror that it represents, got really angry & explained what it was about. This is what it represents... innocent people dying the most horrific deaths, people even being accused of being Jewish or helping a friend that was Jewish were murdered & raped in these camps, painful experiments resulting in death of women & unborn twins & children. It isn't a laughing matter the torture that these people have been through because of Hitler & his comrades." All "ThePyg" could do is respond with sarcasm. He said: "Damn, yo. Swastikas did all that? i thought it was Hitler and those scientists..." That is the definition of a classic douche-bag. Side: Swastika are bad
To each their own? It is acceptable to promote racism? To each their own? It is acceptable to have the flag of those who tried to annihilate the Jewish people? To each their own? It is OK to have the flag of a regime that stuffed men women and children into gas-chambers, ovens, and mass-graves? To each their own? You can be so open minded that your brains fall out. Swastika's are bad. What is it in people that just says nothing is bad? Side: Swastika are bad
There is nothing wrong with the symbol, just how it's perceived. That symbol has been around a lot longer than the Nazis. I have 2 pitchers made in the 1910s that have that symbol all over them and that was prior to the Nazis. In an old catalog, it was listed as a pitcher with a Hopi good luck symbol. It's also been used as a sun symbol in some cultures and the Norse viewed it as a symbol of Thor's Hammer in flight. Side: Swastika are not bad
Because of its use by Nazi Germany, the swastika since the 1930s has been largely associated with Nazism and white supremacy in most of the Western countries. As a result, all of its use, or its use as a Nazi or hate symbol is prohibited in some jurisdictions. Because of the stigma attached to the symbol, many buildings that have contained the symbol as decoration have had the symbol removed. Steven Heller, of the School of Visual Arts, has argued that from the moment it was "misappropriated" by the Nazis, it became a mark and weapon of hate, and could not be redeemed. (Steven Heller, "The Swastika: Symbol Beyond Redemption?", Allworth Press, New York, 2008, passim but especially p. 161-9) Side: Swastika are bad
ThePyg uses it ironically. A backwards swastika was used by Hindus (I believe, something close to that) for thousands of years before Nazis existed. I refuse to give rainbow rights exclusively to the gay community and in the same vein I refuse to cry Nazi every time I see a couple crooked lines intertwined. Surpressing speach does not stop it, it puts it in the dark where it is only seen by a small group who have one reason or another to agree. Let even the craziest speak publically, without fear so they say exactly what they mean. Then they lose power. If they are talking in the dark to only a few others, they gain power. Even if the case should happen, a devout true nazi comes to this site, with Swastika quoting Hitler even, better here than places that person will not be questioned and exposed as a fraud. Slith... whatever is the only dude like that I've seen here, and he's a joke. There's no harm in freedom of speach no matter how extreme the views as long as there are intelligent people around. Side: Swastika are not bad
It is basically the sign Aryan race used.. It has been dirties over the years.. But how you give meaning to it is what matters.. It's very different! Like u use abusive language.. But, they are to the extent of perception. Not really meant bad. The origin of it wasn't bad.. So it should be let alone! Side: Swastika are not bad
Should Hitler have been left alone? We shouldn't stand up to evil? It is OK for ThePyg to run all Jewish people from this site, by posting swastica's all over it? We should just leave him alone, while he is free to spread hatred all over this site? The only thing necessary for bad to win is for good to do nothing. Side: Swastika are bad
No.. Hitler is more than a criminal. He is worth all the hate that is imposed on him today... He deserves it! Standing up to evil is different from blaming a particular sign for it's past it could not help. Besides it was used then by the Nazis.. They created a wrong meaning to it during their existence which is now dead. And Yes, that is no excuse not to call it wrong. And the Jews should not be bothered by a mere swastica, that one person uses... It is going to do no harm to them. I don't think it is really that bad as you put it. It is just something he is using. There is nothing to be offended! Side: Swastika are not bad
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