Hate mongering spam debate.

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This is one of the worst things about religion. People trying to force you to act against your very nature for no other reason then some obscure passage in a fucking book.

It has been undeniably proven that sexual preference is something that we are born with. It is not a choice.

I have no doubt that people can convince gullible homosexuals that what they are feeling is wrong...make them feel guilty for feelings that are completely natural. They may even be able to make them act straight. I can't imagine that this is good for someones mental health, however, and I am sure that these feelings that are being repressed will manifest themselves in a negative way later in life.

If you are straight, imagine being forced to have sex with someone of the same gender. Does that sound repulsive to you? Well now you might understand how homosexuals who are forced to go to these kind of camps feel.

There is nothing wrong with being gay, just like there is nothing wrong with being black, blue eyed, or female. It's not a choice, and the sooner people learn to accept those who are different, the sooner we can end nonsense like this.

You can surpress your emotions, but you'll never really be happy. And potentially, one day, you'll figure out it's not worth it and leave your wife and kids for another man.

So you have to ask yourself, would you like to live that lie to the world and yourself?

If someone is religious, I can understand that wanting to be straight to satisfy your parents expectations. However, as a woman, I don't want to wake up one morning and have my husband of ten years tell me he is gay and is leaving me for another man. I'd rather have married someone sexually attracted to me.

It's not, jake. This is a sound and realevent debate.

Grab your accountabilibuddy and get on the ride. This is gonna be good.

Somehow I am not surprised that you would go for the "hate mongering" argument. Does this debate look like an attack to your religion to you? Because I can tell you that it's not. Those camps have NOTHING to do with Christianity and debating their practices is neither hate mongering nor is it an attack towards the religion those camps have attached themselves to. I put the Straight to Jesus picture on there to expose this manipulative attachment, not to criticize Christianity.

That's not from prayer, that's from the overwhelming social pressure to be just like everyone else. It's pretty sad.

Great south park reference.

The minimum length for an argument is 50 characters. The purpose of this restriction is to cut down on the amount of dumb jokes, so we can keep the quality of debate and discourse as high as possible.

It was his choice insofar as his mind was overcome with pressure from others to conform. Nevertheless, it's always impossible to debate homosexuality with christians, because they have an irrefutable argument: "it's sin."

And my last post was well more than 50 characters. Are you saying it was a "dumb joke"?

The 50 characters thing is what it tells you when your argument is too short, in red text above the box. People paste it since it's at least 50, and it's the closest thing to copy over easily.

And I'm sure it's going to work for Larry Craig, too. When will you Christians understand that you suck just as much cock as we do, but in a different way? :P

(Was that a great way to cultivate cooperation or what?)

EDIT: Oh, I almost forgot to mention the almost utter inadmissability of anecdotal evidence in a debate. We're debating a system to effect change on many people, so unless you can find statistical trends that back it up, it's bunk.

"Since 2006, the use of aversion therapy to treat homosexuality has been in violation of the codes of conduct and professional guidelines of the American Psychological Association and American Psychiatric Association."

Aversion therapy is not a widely accepted practice. Additionally it only stops the behavior, not the desire. So homosexuals might not have sex, but they would still want to so they are still gay. You can't change someone's sexuality. You can force them from acting upon it, but you can't change it.

As a sidenote one of my favorite books/movies deals with aversion therapy: A Clockwork Orange

"Human sexuality itself is not IMPOSSIBLE to change."

Evidence please.

And I think that the practice is actually pretty annoying. It's really not that hard to come up with at least 50 characters to fill in the argument. See?

You're right.

EDIT: Shit, hold on...

The minimum length for an argument is 50 characters. The purpose of this restriction is to cut down on the amount of dumb jokes, so we can keep the quality of debate and discourse as high as possible.

Suppressing the 'urge' to be gay is pretty much like suppressing the urge to be straight. It cannot be done unless you're a priest who cannot be either!!! If one speaks of homosexuality as a sin then I would guess they're not gay at all. Of course I'd have a hard time believing that they were anything else. If one goes to these 'camps' to rid themselves of the 'demons' which possess them I'd still have a difficult time believing they were anything else...but they think they're a vile sinner!

A person is what they are, nothing more and nothing less. If your desire is to be a priest then I can see that celibacy would come into play but that would interfere no matter what. So what's the big deal about praying gay away? You can pray all you wish to but that doesn't mean you can pray away the essence of your being. Yes, I think it's bullshit, clear and simple.

Explain how homosexuality is wrong.

The minimum length for an argument is 50 characters. The purpose of this restriction is to cut down on the amount of dumb jokes, so we can keep the quality of debate and discourse as high as possible.

They can't answer that beyond, "it's sin.". And they arent supposed to think about it introspectivly either, or else they figure out... That it isn't.

So would it be possible to turn a straight person gay, using the same or similar methods?

You made me laugh from that comment and because of that I will not copy and paste that phrase. :)

Well, I was only able so assume based on your profile stating you are a christian and the fact that the Bible clearly states over and over that homosexuality is a sin. I've never understood how one can manage both beliefs at once.

Care to enlighten me?

You are who you are. My philosophy is that being gay is not a sin and that it is completely normal, just like being straight. I am a practicing Catholic, so I should follow everything the Pope says, right? Wrong. I think it is impossible to "convert" to a different orientation and I think it is perfectly acceptable to be gay because why would God put some people on this Earth, make them gay, and then feel it was a sin and deem it immoral. Being gay is a "sin" by some because man deemed it that way.

Being converted is impossible, but suppressing these gay urges is possible. Changing your sexual orientation is more impossible than changing your gender, skin color (not including getting tan/pale), and height (after puberty). :)

Really? Well it looks like you haven't been paying attention:

Corinthians 6:9 - Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived! The sexually immoral, idolaters, adulterers, passive homosexual partners, practicing homosexuals.

Leviticus 18:22 - Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

Jude 7 - So also Sodom and Gomorrah and the neighboring towns, since they indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire in a way similar to these angels, are now displayed as an example by suffering the punishment of eternal fire.

...Dozens of others.

So were you really just ignorant of these, or did you just try to brush them off?? Especially the Jude one clearly refutes what you just said. How do you explain that??

How can you not think it's a sin if you religion claims that it is?

You seem to have a pretty convoluted idea of Christianity.

I'm sorry but i have to call bullshit on this one. I guarantee I know more about Christian doctrine than you. Christian doctrine is definitely against gays, and that simply isn't debatable. Honestly, no mainstream christian will allow homosexuality. It's just so absurd, because it is directly condemned so many times in scripture.

Then how can you claim to be religious. Aren't you supposed to conform to religion, and not the other way around. Sorry but you sound so full of crap.

Honestly, your argument is that, "I agree with the parts of religion that sound nice, and disagree with the parts that don't." I mean, come on, what's really the point then?

I know Christian doctrine is against homosexuality! But Christians themselves aren't necessarily against gays. Obviously, a priest or a deacon or a layperson would be against gays, but a regular, run of the mill Christian might not be. Kind of like me.

I love anecdotal evidence when supporting an argument. But are you 100% sure that he is "cured"? I am almost certain, even though I don't know him, that he is just suppressing his homosexual nature and acting straight....

aaaah! hahahahahahahaha! AAAAAAAH! HAHAHAHAHA!

Holy shit,

I'm sorry, but I find nothing on earth funnier than a bunch of Christians trying to convert gay people from... gayness I guess. I know it's serious, but it's just so goddamn funny.

Like, how many gay porn movies could that be the plot for?

I just love it.

Really, there's only one kind of Christian who really cares that much about "saving" a gay person, and that's a gay Christian, who incedently hates themselves for it... I mean, who wouldn't want to be a self-hating lunatic who worships invisible beings and injures his own cock nightly as he furiously masterbates to the latest jockey underwear ad then immediately feels guilty for it? Sounds like FUN! Where do I sign up?

I'm considering finding one of these gay conversion places here in LV, there has to be one, and finding a pretty little Christian chick to "cure" my gayness in the name of our Lord and Savior Jesus H. Christ. I mean you can't reason with these people, might as well have fun with it.

Hey Alterion, that should be the next movie you make, I'll write the script if you're down.

Refer to my other argument, which explains this.

The minimum length for an argument is 50 characters. The purpose of this restriction is to cut down on the amount of dumb jokes, so we can keep the quality of debate and discourse as high as possible.

So you just ignore parts of scripture then? And scripture is the Holy word of God? Your directly ignoring God then you know. And that doesn't sound like a good Christian now does it?

But marriage was not originally a religious thing, so why does it have to be now?

Why can non-religious straight people get married?

He got married to a woman and has a son or a daughter. I have not talked to him but I assume he changed, because he goes to a Catholic church.

Haha, well you have just about the most f-up sense of Christianity I've ever encountered. But whatever, I really don't think we're making any progress on anything at all, so goodnight, and enjoy your "religion."

I don't think they should be allowed religious marriages either, which they usually don't get. My sister is getting married in August and she had to go through so much to try and get married in this one church nearby- really beautiful church. But nobody in our family is a member of that church, so they wouldn't let us marry her there. I think all churches either are like that or should be.

Well it is also possible he's bisexual or he was going through a phase... Because that really sounds changed, but I know sexual orientation cannot just change like that. It's part of who we are, like a fingerprint.

I am not sure exactly what he did but he from what I ahve heard is not gay anymore.

Honestly, I don't know. I know gays want the Church to change its position, which is close to impossible. But I think is all boils down to oppression, hate, and fear. I think the people who are against gays entirely have one of these traits in reference to gays. They are raised that way, unfortunately, and there is little we can do to change them, but we can get at their kids and teach them tolerance for all orientations and races, etc.

This is what Freud had to say to a mother that asked him to treat her son:

"I gather from your letter that your son is a homosexual. I am most impressed by the fact that you do not mention this term yourself in your information about him. May I question you why you avoid it? Homosexuality is assuredly no advantage, but it is nothing to be ashamed of, no vice, no degradation; it cannot be classified as an illness; we consider it to be a variation of the sexual function, produced by a certain arrest of sexual development. Many highly respectable individuals of ancient and modern times have been homosexuals, several of the greatest men among them. (Plato, Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci, etc). It is a great injustice to persecute homosexuality as a crime –and a cruelty, too. If you do not believe me, read the books of Havelock Ellis. By asking me if I can help [your son], you mean, I suppose, if I can abolish homosexuality and make normal heterosexuality take its place. The answer is, in a general way we cannot promise to achieve it. In a certain number of cases we succeed in developing the blighted germs of heterosexual tendencies, which are present in every homosexual; in the majority of cases it is no more possible. It is a question of the quality and the age of the individual. The result of treatment cannot be predicted.

What analysis can do for your son runs in a different line. If he is unhappy, neurotic, torn by conflicts, inhibited in his social life, analysis may bring him harmony, peace of mind, full efficiency, whether he remains homosexual or gets changed."

The only "proof" these camps have on the success of "conversion" is the Masters and Johnson book called "Homosexuality in Perspective" in which they claimed to have converted 70% of the participants. That evidence has now come out to be fake. Read:

http://tierneylab.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/04/23/faked-evidence-of-gay-conversion/?hp

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=homosexuality-cure-masters-johnson

I still don't think that these camps are really operating in good faith. They may use people's Christan beliefs to sell their services, but they do so by twisting and manipulating those beliefs. So ultimately it's all about the money.

Those who really did it in good faith, soon realized what they were doing and are now spending their lives trying to stop it. Some of them have even issued apologies. Read:

http://www.beyondexgay.com/article/apology

The fact that some parents are forcing their teenage children to these places is tragic and verges on child abuse. Mainstream Christians and Churches should come forward and condemn these camps and their practices. This is religious oppression to say the least.

Imagine what the reaction would be if a clinic claimed that they can make all black people white. That black people are not in God's plan and that all black people should do all they can to rid themselves of this sin/curse. Imagine if people took themselves and their children to have their blackness bleached out so they can be white. Would we allow it? Hell no! But yet again, because these groups operate under the religious cloak, they manage to escape. We are now used to ignoring them because we kind of "expect" such lunacy to come from extremely religious people. These are not Christian groups though. These are bigoted groups that have found refuge under the Christian cloak. A bit like every other extreme religious organization really...

Finally, to end with humor, I couldn't put it better than Butters in South Park, so here it is:

"All right. All right that does it! [turns around and faces the crowd] I am sick and tired of everyone telling me I'm confused! I wasn't confused until other people started tellin' me I was! You know what I think? I think maybe you are the ones who are confused! I'm not gonna be confused anymore just because you say I should be! My name is Butters, I'm eight years old, I'm blood type O, and I'm bicurious! And even that's okay! Because if I'm bicurious, and I'm somehow made from God, then I think your GOD must be a little bicurious himself!

As I have mentioned on the other side of the debate, the evidence pertaining to individuals who supposedly changed is now revealed to have been faked. These camps basically needed the success stories in order to sell their services, so they made them up.

So far, from what I have seen, everybody else that is claiming to have changed and is talking about it publicly, is either working for the camp or is receiving a paycheck from the camp for advertising the success story. Either way, there is financial benefit for this person as long as they maintain the story...

Could you cite a source for all of the gays who claim they became straight?

As I'm sure you understand one guy in a movie isn't really evidence. I respect you for not citing Christian propaganda though. I understand what you are saying about the fluidity of human sexuality, but I think you are a bit confused. I agree that sexuality is fluid, but I think you don't really understand what that means. It doesn't mean that your sexuality changes over time, it means that sexuality is more than gay or straight, that there is a continuum. If someone is bisexual they could stop having sex with people of the same gender, but that doesn't make them straight.

Why change from who you are! God is all forgiving so would forgive you for being gay anyway and hes all powerfull so he must have made gay people in the first place.

I think Jesus was gay. Praying the gay way.

Anyway, the whole thing is sort of dark age. Get over it.

What makes it immoral? What makes it wrong?

Is being albino immoral/wrong? Is it immoral when animals are homosexual too?

If your just suppressing your gay urges, then your gay. There is nothing wrong with being gay. If God doesn't like gay people, then why'd he make people gay?

What does eHarmony and facial structures have to do with "kicking a bad habit?" Also, being gay isn't a habit. Its a part of who you are. Its not like biting nails where you can just get rid of it.

How's that for a response from a twelve year old!

Well perhaps you are unfamiliar with the biological evidence, of which there is ample. I will just concentrate here on the observed homosexuality in nature.

African Buffalo

African Elephant

Agile Wallaby

Amazon River Dolphin(Boto)

American Bison

Antelope

Asian Elephant

Asiatic Lion

Asiatic Mouflon

Atlantic Spotted Dolphin

Australian Sea Lion

Barasingha

Barbary Sheep

Beluga

Bharal

Bighorn Sheep

Black Bear

Blackbuck

Black-footed Rock Wallaby

Black-tailed Deer

Bonnet Macaque

Bonobo

Bottlenose Dolphin

Bowhead Whale

Brazilian Guinea Pig

Bridled Dolphin

Brown Bear

Brown Capuchin

Brown Long-eared Bat

Brown Rat

Buffalo

Caribou

Cat (domestic)

Cattle (domestic)

Cheetah

Collared Peccary

Commerson's Dolphin

Common Brushtail Possum

Common Chimpanzee

Common Dolphin

Common Marmoset

Common Pipistrelle

Common Raccoon

Common Tree Shrew

Cotton-top Tamarin

Crab-eating Macaque

Crested Black Macaque

Cui

Dall's Sheep

Daubenton's Bat

Dog (domestic)

Doria's Tree Kangaroo

Dugong

Dwarf Cavy

Dwarf Mongoose

Eastern Cottontail Rabbit

Eastern Grey Kangaroo

Elk

Euro (a subspecies of wallaroo)

European Bison

Fallow Deer

False Killer Whale

Fat-tailed Dunnart

Fin Whale

Fox

Gazelle

Gelada Baboon

Giraffe

Goat (Domestic)

Golden Monkey

Gorilla

Grant's Gazelle

Grey-headed Flying Fox

Grey Seal

Grey squirrel

Grey Whale

Grey Wolf

Grizzly Bear

Guinea Pig (Domestic)

Hamadryas Baboon

Hamster (Domestic)

Hanuman Langur

Harbor Porpoise

Harbor Seal

Himalayan Tahr

Hoary Marmot

Horse (domestic)

Human

Indian Fruit Bat

Indian Muntjac

Indian Rhinoceros

Japanese Macaque

Javelina

Kangaroo Rat

Killer Whale

Koala

Kob

Larga Seal

Least Chipmunk

Lechwe

Lesser Bushbaby

Lion

Lion-tailed Macaque

Lion Tamarin

Little Brown Bat

Livingstone's Fruit Bat

Long-eared Hedgehog

Long-footed Tree Shrew

Macaque

Markhor

Marten

Matschie's Tree Kangaroo

Moco

Mohol Galago

Moor Macaque

Moose

Mountain Goat

Mountain Tree Shrew

Mountain Zebra

Mouse (domestic)

Moustached Tamarin

Mule Deer

Musk-ox

Natterer's Bat

New Zealand Sea Lion

Nilgiri Langur

Noctule

North American Porcupine

Northern Elephant Seal

Northern Fur Seal

Northern Quoll

Olympic Marmot

Orangutan

Orca

Pacific Striped Dolphin

Patas Monkey

Pere David's Deer

Pig (Domestic)

Pig-tailed Macaque

Plains Zebra

Polar Bear

Pretty-faced Wallaby

Proboscis Monkey

Pronghorn

Przewalski's Horse

Puku

Quokka

Rabbit

Raccoon Dog

Red Deer

Red Fox

Red Kangaroo

Red-necked Wallaby

Red Squirrel

Reeves's Muntjac

Reindeer

Rhesus Macaque

Right Whale

Rock Cavy

Rodrigues Fruit Bat

Roe Deer

Rufous Bettong

Rufous-naped Tamarin

Rufous Rat Kangaroo

Saddle-back Tamarin

Savanna Baboon

Sea Otter

Serotine Bat

Sheep (Domestic)

Siamang

Sika Deer

Slender Tree Shrew

Sooty Mangabey

Sperm Whale

Spinifex Hopping Mouse

Spinner Dolphin

Spotted Hyena

Spotted Seal

Squirrel Monkey

Striped Dolphin

Stuart's Marsupial Mouse

Stumptail Macaque

Swamp Deer

Swamp Wallaby

Takhi

Talapoin

Tammar Wallaby

Tasmanian Devil

Tasmanian Rat Kangaroo

Thinhorn Sheep

Thomson's Gazelle

Tiger

Tonkean Macaque

Tucuxi

Urial

Vampire Bat

Verreaux's Sifaka

Vervet

Vicuna

Walrus

Wapiti

Warthog

Waterbuck

Water Buffalo

Weeper Capuchin

Western Grey Kangaroo

West Indian Manatee

Whiptail Wallaby

White-faced Capuchin

White-fronted Capuchin

White-handed Gibbon

White-lipped Peccary

White-tailed Deer

Wild Cavy

Wild Goat

Wisent

Yellow-footed Rock Wallaby

Yellow-toothed Cavy

That is a list of mammals in which homosexuality has been observed. In order for your theory to hold true, there must be a lot of animal child molestation going on. If you want further evidence I would be happy to provide. I would merely suggest that in the future you know something about the topic of which you are speaking before spewing the verbal diarrhea you called an argument.

Wow, it's like talking to a 5 year old.

My point is that your theory that homosexuality is caused by abuse doesn't hold up because of the numerous examples of homosexuality we see in the animal world. Clearly homosexuality must be biological otherwise why would it be so prevalent in nature?

MY point is, you can't compare humans to animals.

Why not? There is nothing about humans that excludes them from the definition of animals.

Throwing feces is also prevalent in nature, as is eating it. It's in their biological make-up. But not in humans.

Do some research. You will find that the consumption of feces is not even close to as common in nature as homosexuality, and in fact has nothing to do with biological makeup. Good try though.

Just curious...do you believe that murderers are born that way? I mean, murder is so prevalent in nature......

Okay, so now you want to compare homosexuality to murder? Murder is bad because it infringes on the freedom of others (more specifically, their freedom to live). In what way does homosexuality hurt others?

Responding to your question though, there are some people who may be born with bad tempers or be more prone to violence, but certainly our genes are not our fate.

Back to the idea of homosexuality being biological though, you dismissed my first evidence that showed virtually every mammal (and actually most reptiles, birds, and fish) have significant percentages of their population that are homosexual. This however is not the main evidence supporting the claim that humans are biologically straight or homosexual.

Can we agree that sexual impulse towards the women is biological in straight men? Can we also agree that sexual impulse towards men is biological in women? Can we also agree that people who are straight do not make a conscious decision to be that way (as in, there was never a day when you decided to be straight, but you have instead always been attracted to women)?

I ask again though if you want the scientific studies that point to a biological influence in a persons homosexuality, because you seem to be making your arguments based on ignorance and unfounded assertions whereas I have actual science to back me up.

Regardless though, of whether homosexuality is a choice or not, why do you have a problem with it? Homosexuals do not hurt anyone, and in fact, if they are allowed to marry and adopt we would have significantly less children in foster care. In this way it would help society accept gays.

Well, I can find just as many scientific links debunking the "gay gene" Theory as you can find supporting it, and same goes for the link between childhood abuse and homosexuality. But I did find this interesting one, that shows arguments from doctors on both sides. http://borngay.procon.org/viewanswers.asp?questionID=000029

My point is it is a theory, just like the gay gene is a theory; both have support, and both need further studies.

As far as the whole sin/Christian/Athiest thing goes, we'll leave that alone. You're not going to change my mind, and I'm not going to change yours. I'll respect your beliefs (or, I guess, lack thereof) as you respect mine on that issue.

My cousin's brother-in-law changed so yes, you can change.

It was his choice because he knew it was wrong.

The minimum length for an argument is 50 characters. The purpose of this restriction is to cut down on the amount of dumb jokes, so we can keep the quality of

"And my last post was well more than 50 characters. Are you saying it was a "dumb joke"?"

I needed more characters and that did it.

Because you posted on this side of the debate and said the debate was hate mongering for a second I was like "Wow JakeJ realizes that trying to cure homosexuals is a fake and horrible practice." I was really proud that you were starting to learn to be tolerant of other people. I didn't understand though why Pineapple was disagreeing with you. Then I realized that you were saying this debate is hateful toward Christianity, and I facepalmed.

Many Christians do think they need to save gays by converting them to heterosexuality. This is a real and common practice. I don't see how making a debate about the efficacy of trying to change someone's sexual preference is hate mongering. It's funny how you are actually pretty bigoted toward other people, but whenever anyone mentions Christianity you freak out and say they are hateful.

Well, human beings are complicated creatures and it is POSSIBLE that someone can be changed... it doesn't mean that shoving religion down someone's throat will actually do it.

Really, it would take extreme therapy to do so... possibly Aversion Therapy, but through this it will also result in many other bad things.

Becoming Gay is part of an Unstable Extrovert (usually, but not always). This doesn't mean that Unstable Extroverts are more likely to be gay, though, so don't bitch.

Unstable people (meant in a psychology way, not an insulting way so calm the fuck down) have a fluster of emotions that can alter their perspective on things and they are easily influential, especially at an early age. Note: if an unstable child grows up with a gay parent it won't rub off on them, so please don't get any ideas. It usually comes from a series of incidents or events that are very subtle.

So, if an Unstable Gay were to want to become straight for some reason, there is a slight possibility that it can be done. usually, the gay will easily relapse, but there can be a change in their sexuality through extensive and extreme therapy... but back to the relapse, it's pretty easy for them to go back to their old ways... it's what they grew up with and understand.

So... it's not exactly impossible to change someone's sexuality.

I mean Aversion Therapy as an example.

What it does is make the idea of having sex with a man or even the image of another man in a sexual way as grotesque to them.

but that as a side note, human sexuality itself is not IMPOSSIBLE to change.

He's actually being pretty douchey here, I think. He deemed this debate spam so he won't have defend his underendable point of view, and look like an idiot again. He's burnt out on it.

"Nevertheless, it's always impossible to debate homosexuality with christians, because they have an irrefutable argument: "it's sin.""

Thank you so much for lumping me in like that and for generalizing all Christians to be against gays, especially when many gays are Christian and many gay activists are Christian, I'm sure. Specifically, I know somebody on this site who is both gay and Christian! But I'll let that person tell you on his/her own. :)

Homosexuality is a "sin" because marriage is supposed to be between a man and a woman only. I believe this much, that religious marriages should only be heterosexual. But people believe homosexuality is a sin because it ends up as sex between two people who are not married. It is as much of a sin as pre-marital sex. I, however, have no problem whatsoever with gays and I wish they could have every right that straight couples could get besides a religious marriage, which I really have no say over anyways. ;) Therefore, I've never thought it was a sin.

As far as I am concerned, there is no Bible passage that says "Being gay is a sin and all homosexuals will go straight to hell." There are stories relating to homosexuality, like Sodom and Gomorrah, but I believe this all stems from the fact that marriage is between man and woman. I've always believed that the point of life is to be happy and to make others happy. Since being gay does no harm to others but can actually make another gay person happy as well, I can justify others being gay. If this goes against my religion, then I guess I'm just a bad Catholic. ;)

I'm sorry I haven't been reading my Bible recently. ;)

So no, I haven't been paying much attention. But scripture really isn't everything. The only thing I was upset about was the fact that you generalized being Christian as against gays. And I know from my social connections this is not the case.

Because my religion is not my brain. What my religion thinks is not what my brain thinks. The two will never agree 100%. This is the same for the majority of the world population that is religious. If we all wanted religions that perfectly agreed with us, we would each have our own one!

How can you call yourself Christian without believing in Christian doctrine? I mean, pardon me, but isn't that kind of the point? Because if your just going to make up your own rules as you go, why do you need Christianity?

"I mean, come on, what's really the point then?"

The point is, I agree with most of what my religion says, not because the Pope says is, but because I agree with it. This is one case out of a handful that I disagree with. Besides, I believe in the central dogma of the Church, which is the real crux of religion. Everything else is morality. And morals are dependent on the person, not the faith. So yes, it is very possible to be religious and not "conform to your religion."

I guess it doesn't sound like a good Christian, but I'd rather be a bad Christian with good morals than a good Christian with bad morals.

So then if gay couples don't get married in the church, what's the bfd?

I will enjoy my religion. I enjoy it every day of my life because it is independent of my morality. My religion is my belief in Christ and the central dogma of the church. My morality has nothing to do with this; sometimes it disagrees with the church but most of the time it agrees. I'm sorry if this is hard for me to explain, but it's 3:30 am and I can't sleep. I'm exhausted, but when my head touches that pillow, I'm wide awake. -_-

Probably. I've never conducted an experiment myself (all types are considered unethical now). I think women are a great example on how sensitive the human sexuality can sometimes be. Mainly because women are extremely emotionally unstable, and their sexual attraction to someone is 80% emotional. With men it's harder, but the gay ones are usually much more emotionally unstable than the straights.

Well, Aversion Therapy hasn't been done in quite some time, so that should be nil.

I guess all the gays who claim that they're straight now... that's the only real evidence out there. I don't use it myself, I believe in biological psychology as an explanation... it's like math really. Some things have never been proven or tested, but mathematically it makes sense so you figure it does. Even though there are hundreds of gays who claim that they've turned straight (and claim that until they die), i still don't like that. I really think it takes much more than some psyche sessions and Jesus worship to change sexuality. But, in this case, since you're the evidence man, i'll point to that.

This really pisses me off. First he attacked the debate for fear mongering. I thought fair enough, stay away from it then.

But now I found out that he has been coming here downvoting arguments without adding a reason. He basically downvoted 4 arguments in the "Bullshit" side because they didn't agree with his views.

How very sneaky. And douchey.

Banned.

Well lets just hope that he doesn't "change back" one day and leaves his wife and children to break free of his sexual oppression.

I mean, if people want to be something, fine. You can "be" anything you want to be. It's a free country. But I'm hoping that this religious oppression doesn't end in more harm.

If your mother or father were "ex-gay" and were just a person pretending to be gay, and one day figured out that that was not how they wanted to live life anymore. That they wanted to be with a person of the same sex, and had never really loved your other parent at all, would you not feel lost? I don't think we should take those chances and oppress those people in that manor.

I'd rather have gay parents, than parents who don't really love each other.

there's that guy on Religulous...

Sorry i don't have names. I don't have patience with Google. All i find are either religious sites talking about their treatment or movements against the whole "change gays to straight" but no actual names, and i refuse to site a Christian site as my source (no names anyway, so what's the point).

one very interesting site though about pedophilia... so i guess i got something out of it.

Listen, I don't actually believe that prayer can change sexual orientation... i think anyone who claims that is just back in the closet. But, judging from the fluidity of the sexual, human mind, I don't think it's completely IMPOSSIBLE to change someone's sexual orientation.

That guy in Religulous was hilarious...

He said "I don't believe anyone is gay", and yet, as they were hugging and Maher joked about the man being aroused, he answered "No, sorry, I can't do that", which is quite sad. It's not that he's not gay, it's that he feels he's not allowed to be.

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And by the way... here is an example of what "reparative therapy" looks like...

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That video would have been hilarious if it wasn't true.

Actually, I have to admit I still laughed...

Mom! Why did you do that to me!

That guy clearly has some issues.

Well I'm not being funny but... a therapy where this guy pretends to be the daddy?... and the other guy rests on this guys lap?... and this guy then strokes him and says "you're daddy's favorite boy"?... and the other guy feels all safe in the hands of "daddy"?... isn't that like the number one sexual fantasy of the gay population?

And I don't know HOW that reporter kept a straight face when he started beating the pillow and blaming Mom!

think of it as kicking a bad habit...ok...u know how the e harmony ads

make the people look like they were ment to be together...im not saying i believe in internet dating...but studies show that people with certain face structures are attracted to people with a certain other facial structure

how's that for a responce from a 14-year-old!

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How is that "pretty sad?" Homosexuality is immoral and wrong!

"It has been undeniably proven that sexual preference is something that we are born with. It is not a choice."

WHAT? LOL, you just come up with your own "facts"? It has never been "undeniably proven". It's a theory; no more, no less. I personally believe most gay men are that way because daddy touched their naughty places when they were a kid.

Forgiveness is a gift from God,; a gift is not a gift unless you receive it. So for God to forgive you for being Gay, "you" as a gay person would have to receive the gift, which would require you to realize you need forgiveness. And logic follows that if you need forgiveness, then you were doing something wrong.

so, your point is homosexuals are animals?

The minimum length for an argument is 50 characters. The purpose of this restriction is to cut down on the amount of dumb jokes, so we can keep the quality of debate and discourse as high as possible.

wow, it's like talking to a retard. Oh wait......

MY point is, you can't compare humans to animals. Throwing feces is also prevalent in nature, as is eating it. It's in their biological make-up. But not in humans.

Just curious...do you believe that murderers are born that way? I mean, murder is so prevalent in nature......

First off, I never stated I had a problem with homosexuals. My first wife was a homosexual/turned bi woman. Plenty of grade school friends of mine "came out of the closet" later on in life, and they are still my friends, etc. But anyway....

I don't think homosexuality is a CHOICE. I don't think someone wakes up one morning and says, "you know what? I'm gonna try gay today". However, I do believe it is more nurture than nature. But, I'm interested in your response to the murder thing (and no, I was not trying to make a direct correlation between the two). But your point about some people more prone, due to their genes. Science has also found the same regarding things like alcohol; that some people are more prone to becoming alcoholics than others. That doesn't mean they all WILL become one; just that they are more prone to. That's kind of where I lean with the whole homo/hetero thing. I think there may be some people more prone to being homosexual. I also believe that situations/issues from early childhood (nurture) can play a role.

I will say this; I believe homosexuality is a sin. But you know what? I'm sure I've sinned quite a few times today myself. Just because I may not agree with an aspect of someone's lifestyle doesn't mean I have a problem with that person. I'm sure many of my friends (gay or straight) don't agree with every decision I make.

Science has also found the same regarding things like alcohol; that some people are more prone to becoming alcoholics than others. That doesn't mean they all WILL become one; just that they are more prone to. That's kind of where I lean with the whole homo/hetero thing. I think there may be some people more prone to being homosexual. I also believe that situations/issues from early childhood (nurture) can play a role.

Okay, this statement is much more reasonable then your first that claimed that homosexuality was caused by abuse at a young age. Obviously there is a complex relationship between our genetics and our environment, but certainly what the evidence points to is that biology plays a significant role. This is probably balanced with social pressures and other factors in our development, but unless you can show me some study that connects homosexuality with childhood abuse, I'm definitely going to be skeptical of that particular theory.

All I am going to say about the whole "homosexuality is a sin" thing is that homosexuality doesn't hurt anyone, and therefore I fail to see how it could be "sinful." Then again I'm an atheist so I don't base my morality off of a religious text but on reason.