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Debate Info

43
44
Yes, or it will never be done Not with my tax dollars!
Debate Score:87
Arguments:41
Total Votes:122
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Argument Ratio

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 Yes, or it will never be done (18)
 
 Not with my tax dollars! (23)

Debate Creator

sparsely(498) pic



Should government subsidize electric vehicles?

Will we ever get off the pump?

Yes, or it will never be done

Side Score: 43
VS.

Not with my tax dollars!

Side Score: 44
4 points

We should, and we must, if we're ever going to see electric vehicles become mass-produced, with a network of charging stations. Battery-powered vehicles have been around for a hundred years, and modern batteries have capacities to fulfill most commuter needs.

However, the patents to these batteries have been purchased by the oil industry (Chevron et al), and our tax dollars instead being diverted to Hydrogen Fuel Cells and other vaporware.

The California Air Resources Board passed legislation to this effect, and it was fought tooth and nail and eventually rescinded.

I think if we ever hope to see an electric vehicle, it will have to be done by force, as the interests of industry are too entrenched and moneyed to overcome otherwise.

Side: Yes, or it will never be done
dcovan(170) Disputed
1 point

Any way to see what patents have been bought by chevron et al

Side: Not with my tax dollars!
sparsely(498) Disputed
0 points

The US Patent Office site doesn't seem to have functionality to allow you to search by current patent owners.

Side: Yes, or it will never be done
Cdelvalle(196) Disputed
1 point

You see more and more electric cars everyday. The government isn't forcing use, it's just that technology has advanced enough to where batteries are becoming more powerful and cheap.

As an example, Toyota and Honda recently cut their battery prices in half.

Furthermore the incentive to go electric is already there. According to electric producer Tesla Motors, running their new electric car will cost about one cent per mile driven. Compare this to well over 20 cents to run a gas car.

As battery prices drop, electric cars will become an accepted form of transportation. No government incentives needed.

Side: Not with my tax dollars!
sparsely(498) Disputed
0 points

Every day? I haven't seen one yet. Tesla and those are nice, but far out of price range. What happened to GMs EV1, or Toyota's RAV4EV ? They're certainly not being sold or mass-produced in America. Most Americans don't even know they exist(ed).

Side: Yes, or it will never be done
Kenneth1944(6) Disputed
1 point

Battery cars are plugged in and get power from coal and nuclear powered electric plants. The choice becomes, do you want pollution by gas or coal and nuclear?

Side: Not with my tax dollars!
3 points

The concept of an electric vehicle has been around for ages(around the 1830's[ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_car#History ]), but has not progressed on to be overly available like gas cars today. For this reason the government should most defiantly intervene on some level to provide a foot hold for new cars that use all electric instead of gas. It's about time that we have some radical change to help change the way we use the planets energy on a daily basis, were just digging deeper and deeper in this anti-environmentalist hole.

Side: Yes, or it will never be done
pvtNobody(645) Disputed
2 points

Well you may think that government should defiantly intervene to subsidize electric cars but I might wonder why the government would be defying anyone or why. Electric cars are in essence little cleaner than oil powered vehicles. In the end the increased demand for electricity will lead to only a slight lessening of environmental impact. Government should subsidize other alternatives to oil. Hydrogen and solar power both come to mind as excellent power sources. In the end both alternatives use electricity to power the vehicle, but when one refers to "electric vehicles" generally the image invoked is a rechargeable battery.

With the advent of improved solar panels, thanks to new techniques (Link 1), solar power is likely to become a major source of electric power for vehicles and home use. However hydrogen fuel cells (Link 2), are just as promising and may in fact be a better alternative. What is just as likely is a combination of the two, using solar power to assist in the production of hydrogen; perhaps even from the water given off by the fuel cell itself creating an enclosed system increasing mileage significantly by reducing waste. Additionally hydrogen is a readily available resource and is easily renewable through many, many different methods as hydrogen is a byproduct of countless processes.

In short I do think that the government should provide funding for alternative fuel sources, but the projects funded should be more radical and far reaching than simple electric power.

Link 1

Link 2

Side: Not with my tax dollars!
sparsely(498) Disputed
1 point

Correcting your opponents spelling don't make your argument stronger.

That said, Electric cars are far cleaner than petroleum fueled vehicles. Electric motors are much more efficient. Even if the power to charge them comes from coal plants (which have gotten much cleaner in the past couple decades). Hydrogen fuel cells have been tried many times, they're at least 40 years away.

We've already got very good battery technology and commercially viable cars. We've got the ability to do it right now, but they refuse, and, like you, want to distract us with other things we can throw our money away on, rather than the solution at hand.

Deduction? A solution isn't wanted.

Supporting Evidence: Hydrogen cars - A carrot on a string (www.wired.com)
Side: Yes, or it will never be done
Cdelvalle(196) Disputed
1 point

Electric cars haven't progressed because the power capacity of older batteries simply wasn't there. In fact, until the Lithium-ion battery, capacity to drive long distances on electric cars was simply unrealistic.

Furthermore, battery technology hadn't moved forward in years. It was just until recently that battery manufacturers began realizing the demand high-capacity and fast-discharge would have due to hybrid electric vehicles.

Because of this, you will see major advancements in battery technology and mass adoption should follow suite.

Side: Not with my tax dollars!
2 points

Incentives are generally better than penalties and alternatively-fuelled vehicles need a considerably greater allure to increase uptake. Subsidy should take the form of a reduced tax burden on manufacturing and maintaining greener vehicles.

Side: Yes, or it will never be done
2 points

Yes! I want one of those kick ass new elec carz. How can I wit no money? Gov wantsa biuy me one Good!

Side: Yes, or it will never be done
Cdelvalle(196) Disputed
2 points

If you don't have money, why should I (through tax dollars) help you buy an electric car? Why don't you get a good job, save money, and buy one yourself like every other responsible individual? Heck, that's what I have to do.

If the government begins susidizing electric cars, why not subsidize homes too. Why not subsidize flatscreen TV's and bottled water while you're at it?

Government subsidies just distort true supply and demand. They try and fix one problem but only cause others. Look at corn-based ethanol. They subsidized ethanol and now corn is 200% more expensive. Mexicans rioted last year because they couldn't afford the tortilla's which are a staple of their diet.

American subsidies distorted the true supply and demand fundamentals of that market. They tried to fix a problem (dependance on oil) and caused another one instead (more expensive food)

Side: Not with my tax dollars!

God forbid tax dollars are used on something that will actually benefit the citizens. Alternative energy is extremely important for all generations and social classes.

Side: Yes, or it will never be done
1 point

Not worth my tax dollars? what, like subsidies for auto makers and oil companies? or maybe we shouldn't spend tax money on clean air and water.

of course, it's a pointless venture, because electric cars run on electricity that comes from.......oil, coal, gas, and nuclear power anyway.

Side: Yes, or it will never be done
Cdelvalle(196) Disputed
1 point

Nuclear aint that bad. France gets over 70% of their electricty from nuclear and are doin just fine.

Side: Not with my tax dollars!
1 point

I think this technology is superb but looks like old aged cars and Electric cars have been around since the mid-nineteenth century and they continue to be unable to occupy more than a tiny niche. http://www.carsadvisor.net/usedcarsforsale/used_cars.php

Side: Yes, or it will never be done

I think the U.S. Government should subsidize so the momentum can swing in full force to get the consumer to invest in an electric car.

Side: Yes, or it will never be done

The increasing global focus on sustainability and reducing carbon emissions has led to a growing interest in electric vehicles (EVs) as a viable alternative to traditional gasoline-powered cars. To incentivize the adoption of EVs and accelerate the transition to cleaner transportation, governments have implemented subsidies and financial incentives. In this debate, we will examine the arguments for and against government subsidies for electric vehicles, considering their potential benefits and drawbacks. - drywall hanging

Side: Yes, or it will never be done
4 points

I think the taxes should be spent more wisely on public transportation than on privately owned electric vehicles. Or, if they are to cheapen vehicles via tax revenue to stimulate the market, they should do it with something more worth while to everyone involved, the bicycle.

They are cheap to manufacture, cheap to buy, cheap to maintain, and have been proven time and time again to be one of the most efficient modes of transportation ever created. Calorie per mile spent is less than that of any other mainstream means of transportation. It is also healthy for you, but not physically demanding on joints. America would have a win win situation if they did this... too bad people are too stubborn to try something old.

Side: Not with my tax dollars!

Instead of subsidies I favor mandatory emission standards. If the only way to reach them are electric cars, the industry will have to build them.

Also, make gas really expensive and invest the money into research.

Side: Not with my tax dollars!
sparsely(498) Disputed
2 points

That is exactly what the California Air Resources Board mandated. An increasing percentage of vehicles sold in California were to be zero-emissions vehicles. Lobbyists from the oil industry and automakers fought it until it got killed.

Side: Yes, or it will never be done
0 points

So why exactly are you opposed to it?

Side: Not with my tax dollars!

Alternative fuels and car technology is advancing fine on its own. Costs are also always getting lower. In other words, it doesn't need to be subsidized.

Side: Not with my tax dollars!
Narc(13) Disputed
1 point

The first electric car came out almost 2 decades ago, and you're trying to say that it's advancing fine?

Side: Not with my tax dollars!
Bradf0rd(1431) Disputed
2 points

Alternative fuel doesn't specifically mean ELECTRIC.

I don't think we're doing all that well though. If you look at the problem, and I mean really look at it... how dependent we are on fossil fuels and how complicated all of this is, I don't know how we could ever walk away from this mess without having a train wreck.

Side: Not with my tax dollars!
2 points

Yes I do think we are doing fine. The "first" isn't a good judge of progress, because often the "first" of things is just a prototype and is created when there is little demand for it. There are primitive batteries dating back over 2000 years for example.

20 years ago buying an expensive inefficient electric car would be stupid with the gas prices at that time. Only in the last 7-8 years has there been a really strong incentive to get quality electric or hybrid cars on the market at a cheap price. In that we've been awesome. So awesome that hybrids are as affordable as most regular midsized cars. Other technologies are growing too. GM is producing a great and affordable hydrogen car for 2013, mostly in response to recent concerns over gas prices and pollution. That is stunning response time.

Side: Not with my tax dollars!
1 point

What if electric vehicles turn out to be worse than gasoline ones?

Side: Not with my tax dollars!
repmetnellaf(9) Disputed
1 point

what, like electric pollution?

Side: Yes, or it will never be done
hittingsmoke(9) Disputed
0 points

Not "electric pollution". Lithium (the primary type of battery used in electric cars) is extremely hazardous to the environment, its not recyclable, it just ends up in landfills.

The only way to "recycle" it is to make it into meth... and I don't think we need any more of that in the world

Side: Not with my tax dollars!
1 point

Its should be noted that there are many with the knowledge to convert conventional cars to electric. This process would be within profitability, and thus market actualisation, if patents didn't exist on the batteries in use for model electric cars. The electric car is feasible, has lower maintenance cost and can be done economically to any car. The only reason the electric car is not out on the streets is because car companies want to market the first one "correctly." We all know that after the first few cars, which will be ridiculous, the models will begin to look more like conventional cars. If this is the end result, it's within our grasp right know, and research for these batteries was partially funded (I think, I'm currently researching) by the government we should just start making them. The problem isn't that we need government to aid the development, production and marketing, we need government to get out of the way of people willing to do the production and marketing.

We should always look at what manipulations we can remove to reach our cause before considering further manipulations. If it can't succeed on its own, it can, the government is not needed. If it can then just let it.

As a computer scientist with much familiarity with *nix I can say without a doubt that intellectual property right diminish intellectual production. People will naturally be motivated to produce intellectual resources for there own aims anywhere there is a gap.

http://blog.mises.org/10514/the-fallacy-of-intellectual-property/

Conversion
Side: Government's in the way

If every single vehicle in America was magically electric, where will the power plants get all this new energy. More coal, natural gas and nuclear will be needed.

Side: Not with my tax dollars!
0 points

The biggest thing people overlook with electric/hybrid vehicles is that we're trading one type of pollution for another. Sure, getting rid of or shrinking down internal combustion engines will reduce our air pollution, but what do you think the battery waste will do to our ecosystems? Batteries are extremely hazardous to the environment. Especially the huge lithium batteries that are used in electric and hybrid cars. No battery lasts forever, rechargeable or not, and not only are they extremely harmful, they're also insanely expensive to the point it could nearly offset the price you save on gas in a hybrid by the time you have to replace it.

C'mon THINK people! Hydrogen is the future, NOT electric. Hybrid and electric is a short term solution and nothing more.

Side: Not with my tax dollars!
fawkes(11) Disputed
1 point

Batteries are not ideal, but electric cars are definitely the future. Have a look at current Ultracapacitor technology that will soon replace batteries: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EEstor

The problem with hydrogen is it's density. Compressing hydrogen to a liquid costs 30% of the energy it contains.

We must find a better way of moving ourselves as our current demand shows no signs of slowing. Technologically, there are few reasons that electric cars are not thriving and profitable. It is political will and profit by few that drives the industry today.

TED Talks | Amory Lovins: We must win the oil end game
Side: Yes, or it will never be done