So..., you really want a nationalized health care system...
http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=111_cong_bills&docid=f:h3200ih.pdf
Pg 22 of the HC Bill MANDATES the Gov’t will audit books of ALL EMPLOYERS that self insure!!
Pg 30 Sec 123 of HC bill - A Gov’t COMMITTEE will decide what treatments/benefits you receive
Pg 29 lines 4-16 in the HC bill - YOUR HEALTHCARE IS RATIONED!!!
Pg 42 of HC Bill - The Health Choices Commissioner will choose your HC Benefits for you. You have no choice!
Pg 58 HC Bill -- Gov’t will have real-time access to citizens’ finances & a National ID HealthCare card will be issued!
Pg 59 HC Bill lines 21-24 -- Gov’t will have direct access to your bank accts for electronic funds transfer
Pg 72 Lines 8-14 -- Gov’t is creating a HealthCare Exchange to bring private HC plans under Gov’t control.
PG 84 Sec 203 HC bill -- Gov’t mandates ALL benefit packages for private HC plans in the Exchange
PG 85 Line 7 HC Bill -- Specs for of Benefit Levels for Plans = The Gov’t will ration your Healthcare!
PG 85 Line 7 HC Bill - Specs of Benefit Levels for Plans. #AARP members –your health care WILL b rationed
-PG 102 Lines 12-18 HC Bill - Medicaid Eligible Individuals will be automatically enrolled in Medicaid. No choice
pg 124 lines 24-25 HC -- No company can sue GOV’T on price fixing. No "judicial review" against Gov’t Monopoly
pg 127 Lines 1-16 HC Bill - Doctors/ #AMA - The Gov’t will tell YOU how much you can earn.
Pg 145 Line 15-17 -- An Employer MUST auto enroll employees into public option plan. NO CHOICE
Pg 126 Lines 22-25 -- Employers MUST pay for healthcare for part time employees AND their families. (There go your small businesses)
Pg 167 Lines 18-23 -- ANY Individual who doesn’t have acceptable HC (according to Gov’t) will be taxed 2.5% of income (so much for choice)
Pg 170 Lines 1-3 HC Bill -- NONRESIDENT Aliens are exempt from individual taxes. (American citizens will pay)
Pg 195 HC Bill -Officers & employees of HC Admin (GOV’T) will have access to ALL Americans’ financial and personal records
PG 203 Line 14-15 HC - "The tax imposed under this section shall not be treated as tax" Yes, it says that
Pg 239 Line 14-24 HC Bill Gov’t will reduce physician services for Medicaid. Seniors, low income, poor affected
Pg 241 Line 6-8 HC Bill - Doctors, regardless of specialization and/or education, will all earn the same amount
PG 253 Line 10-18 -- Gov’t sets value of Dr's time, professional judgment, etc. (i.e. value of humans)
PG 265 Sec 1131 -- Gov’t mandates & controls productivity for private HC industries
PG 272 SEC. 1145. -- TREATMENT OF CERTAIN CANCER HOSPITALS - Cancer patients - welcome to rationing!
Pg 298 Lines 9-11 -- Drs, treat a patient during initial admission that results in a readmission and the Gov’t will penalize you.
Pg 317 L 13-20 -- OMG!! PROHIBITION on ownership/investment. Gov’t tells Drs. what/how much they can own.
Pg 317-318 lines 21-25,1-3 -- PROHIBITION on expansion- Gov’t is mandating hospitals cannot expand
Pg335 L 16-25 Pg 336-339 - Gov’t mandates establishment of outcome-based measures. HC Rationing at its finest. What are these measures? Hmmm, according to the bill they’ll measure your odds for
· patient mortality and morbidity following surgery;
· measures of health functioning (such as limitations on activities of daily living) and survival for patients with chronic diseases;
If the odds aren’t in YOUR favor, NO treatment for YOU.
Like, Yeah, dude!
Side Score: 26
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Hell no!
Side Score: 18
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Obama is not nationalizing health care. He is providing a publicly funded option. I, however, am a very happy Canadian under his single payer insurance system. It's imperfect and could use some reform, but it is very efficient, thoroughly backed by economic theory, and not the coercive behemoth that talk radio makes it out to be. Side: Like, Yeah, dude!
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Of course I do. I'm tired of these arguments about the poor, widdle insurance companies who won't be able to survive when the big bad government gets to compete. "From 2000 to 2007, profits at the country’s 10 largest publicly traded health insurance companies rose 428 percent, according to a report by the advocacy group Health Care for America Now! The report relied on filings with the Securities and Exchange Commission. Health insurance profits during that period grew from $2.4 billion to $12.9 billion annually, according to HCAN. And those companies were generous with their top brass. “In 2007 alone,” according to the report, “the chief executive officers at these companies collected combined total compensation of $118 million — an aver-age of $11.9 million each.” " --Source "“Premiums have skyrocketed, increasing more than 87 percent, on average, over the past six years,” according to the report." Insurance companies are evil. They deny care to people based on pre-existing conditions, and they do everything in their power to NOT pay for care for anyone who accrues high costs of care through NO fault of their own! I want a system that will cover me regardless of what conditions I have that I cannot help having. I want a system that will not refuse payment because they can find a loophole and I filled out a questionairre incorrectly. In looking up the issue, I came across this response to the movie Sicko by Wendell Potter: Wendell Potter, the former Head of Corporate Communications at CIGNA has admitted that America's Health Insurance Plans or AHIP (the umbrella organization for the health insurance industry) had developed a campaign to discredit Michael Moore and the movie. When asked what he thought about the documentary Potter said that "I thought that he hit the nail on the head with his movie. But the industry, from the moment that the industry learned that Michael Moore was taking on the health care industry, it was really concerned....They were afraid that people would believe Michael Moore." Side: Like, Yeah, dude!
Personally, whether you end up with a national HC system, or a publicly funded option, or whatever, the system needs reforming. The cost of my travel insurance more than doubles if I'm even transferring in the US, It's cheaper for me to pay for extra flights around the US than to go through it. Not because the chances of me being shot or injured are higher (I have to admit that was my first reaction) but because the cost of health care in the US is disproportionately far above the rest of the world. Side: Like, Yeah, dude!
As a self-employed individual, I would love a public option. I've looked into private insurance, and my monthy premiums are between 500 and 1000... that's per month! So, currently I'm and uninsured American. So what do you care? Well nothing now, because I simply don't go to the doc. Which is okay so far, I'm never sick, and I can afford the 100-150 for a teath cleaning once a year, but if I'm in a car wreck or something, and loose a leg or get brain damage, or get cancer, do you really think I'm going to just go jump off a cliff because I can't afford the medical bills? Hell no, I'm parking my ass in an ER, and filing bankruptcy, and haha, you're all paying for it anyway. So why not give people like myself an affordable option so I'm willing to pay into the system huh? (of course I have a much better arguement, but this is a good and true example, and everyone else on this side has done such a great job already) Side: Like, Yeah, dude!
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You're a dumbass if you don't nationalize it. Right now ERs are empty, nurses are sitting around, equipemnt and meds are rotting away, and only a select few are going to the hospital, and by few i mean those with insurance. Now if we let this keep happening we're probably going to be slowly but surely killing the nations biggest industry, and largest sect of the economy. Nationalizing healthcare will save jobs, and give the economy a floating cushion to fall back on. Side: You're a dumbass if you don't
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Here's the rest of it: Pg 341 Lines 3-9 Gov’t has authority to disqualify Medicare Adv Plans, HMOs, etc. Forcing people into Gov’t plan Pg 354 Sec 1177 - Gov’t will RESTRICT enrollment of Special needs people! WTF? My sister has down syndrome!! PG 425 Lines 4-12 Gov’t mandates Advance Care Planning Consultation. Think Senior Citizens end of life Pg 425 Lines 17-19 -- Gov’t will instruct & consult regarding living wills, durable powers of atty. Mandatory! PG 425 Lines 22-25, 426 Lines 1-3 -- Gov’t provides approved list of end of life resources, guiding you in death PG 427 Lines 15-24 -- Gov’t mandates program for orders for end of life. The Gov’t has a say in how your life ends PG 429-- "Advanced Care Consultation" may include an order for end of life. Pg 429 - The Gov’t will specify which Doctors can write an End of Life Order. PG 430 --The Gov’t will decide what level of treatment you will have at end of life (the government, not the family!) PG 489 Sec 1308 -- The Gov’t will cover Marriage & Family therapy. Which means they will insert Gov’t into your marriage Pg 494-498 -- Gov’t will cover Mental Health Services including defining, creating, rationing those services Side: Hell no!
The debate intro is such an unstructured rant as to make any sensible response to it impossible. You seem to be arguing that government has too much control, then not enough, that you're forced into enrolment, then that people are going to be excluded, that the funding is going to far, that the government shouldn't be allowed to make HC affordable. Shame. Side: Like, Yeah, dude!
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I never wanted it. I do believe that the government should pay for medical treatment in EXTREME situations (such as car accidents and heart failure), but Nationalized healthcare is too fucked up. It really all depends on the individual, though. Some people prefer different systems. but, if it comes down to the individual, nationalized health care once again fucks up that idea. It's not individualist. Side: Hell no!
4
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Well what if they structured it like the public school system. Everyone pays to allow everyone to send their kids, but if you want, and can afford it, you send your child to a better school. It would be easy to do with healthcare. If you cannot afford your own, then use the governments, but if you are afraid about scary sayings like "ration your care." Then pay for your own, out of your own pocket. The real issue is: healthcare is a necessity. If a nation can afford to ensure all of it's citizens then it should do so. We are the richest nation in the world (though not per person, I guess, but still pretty high up there), therefore we should make sure no one is too poor to see a doctor for necessary treatments. Plus emergency only care ends up costing more in the end, because a pill today can stop an operation tomorrow. Side: Like, Yeah, dude!
So we give the people the option of either getting shitty treatment or paying even MORE for decent treatment. That's nice. The problem is for Middle Class people like me, who can't afford BOTH. I end up HAVING to switch to shit care because the taxes are taking away that money that I spend for decent health care. Even though I don't like to get personal, this is exactly what will happen to me if this happens. Side: Hell no!
3
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So let me say back to you what I think you're saying. I should pay for your health care insurance and then, if I have enough money for pay for my own in order to avoid the scary stuff, I should pay for my own. Do you realize that the government does not produce any products or provide any services that it sells in order to make a profit? The money used for any government program comes from some form of tax (a fee is a tax). You want to make sure that if some one is too poor that the government force the rest of us to pay for that person. What if I asked the government to take more money out of your paycheck (or allowance) to pay for my needs? Why don't you take exactly 30% of all of your clothes and give them to the needy? How about 30% of all of your electronic equipment like iPod, game consoles, etc.?How about 30% of your food or better yet, volunteer 30% of your time to help feed the homeless? Oh wait...., what was that..., you want someone else to do that ;) Side: Like, Yeah, dude!
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In what way would Nationalized Healthcare be fucked up? What statistics do you have to verify this? Can you honestly say that people in the countries that have National Healthcare DON'T like it or DON'T want it? Having healthcare for EVERYONE is better than having NOTHING for those 50 million uninsured Americans. Side: Like, Yeah, dude!
2
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I had two heart attacks and a stroke two years ago. I still have not seen an neurologist. You have to wait two years before you can start medicare. I'm on medicare now and still has not seen a neurologist. We already wait along for medical treatment in American. Like Bill Myers said some people are too stupid to lead. If people stay stupid the insurance will win again! Look up how much any CEO for any insurance company get paid And they willrefuse treatment. Side: health care now please America
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Has the U.S. government not looked across the pond at the U.K. or up north to Canada? have they not seen how badly their health care system is failing? Of course all the politicians in favor of it will tell you that it's so much different but it's just like China making the argument that it's system of communism is better than Soviet Russia's system of communism. IT"S STILL COMMUNISM! No matter how Obama tries to dress it up, it's still a system that has been known to fail and it shouldn't become a government system. especially when we are so far in debt already. Side: Hell no!
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