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Debate Score:113
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 Some cops just killed a White woman with no visible weapon. Where's the race bating? (85)

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FromWithin(8241) pic



Some cops just killed a White woman with no visible weapon. Where's the race bating?

I see no Al Sharpton, Eric Holder or Obama on the media vowing to get to the bottom of this killing. I guess when Cops kill White people, there is no need for justice.

Can you see what is going on in the Democrat party? If a tragedy does not involve a means to garner votes, Democrats could care less about the people killed. I wonder if Obama will send people from his administrtion to the girl's funeral as he did the Black man shot by the Cop. Nah, there are no votes to be gained from this story. He can't fan the flames of how White Cops are racists so why waste the time. Kind of like going to Las Vegas to campaign a day after our Ambassador was murdered by terrorists.

I wonder if we will see riots in the streets if the Cops are not found guilty. Nah because Fox news will not race bate or stir up dissent against the Cops no matter the race of the victim. You will see no Republicans stirring up racial tension from these tragedies.

I just hope someday the kind of people who vote for these race baters will wake up. There is nothing more disgusting than politicians who stir up class and racial warfare between Americans, all to get elected. This type of hedious politics is what cost those two Police officers their lives in NYC.

Truly reprehensible!

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4 points

Can you demonstrate a systemic trend of unnecessary violence against caucasians in this country? No. Can you demonstrate one against african americans? Yes.

So what is your problem?

thousandin1(1931) Clarified
2 points

Can you demonstrate a systemic trend of unnecessary violence against caucasians in this country? No. Can you demonstrate one against african americans? No.

Fixed that for you. I know I've harped on others for only focusing on the absolute vs the relative before, so I'm going to try and avoid this here.

From an absolute perspective, police kill roughly twice as many white people per year total than black. Can you demonstrate conclusively that the frequency of these being unnecessary is double amongst black as compared to whites? Because if not, then there are more total unnecessary killings of whites than blacks, which would demonstrate the opposite.

Why? Because even with the highest estimate of death rates, the overwhelming majority of people are NOT killed by cops, necessarily or unnecessarily. There is a HUGE crop of potential targets for 'unnecessary violence' that are not being targeted. Sure, white people outnumber black people in the US 5:1 or so, but the numbers are a LOT closer in Urban Areas. There are more than enough black people within urban police jurisdictions to dwarf the death toll amongst whites without significantly affecting the total population.

In other words, if blacks were specifically being targeted with unnecessary violence, I would expect the death toll to dwarf that of whites.

No. I say this is a problem of poverty. There is a strong link between poverty and crime, particularly in urban areas, and a strong link between race and financial status as well. Further, while whites outnumber blacks 5:1 in the nation, when we are looking at the populations of urban areas the numbers are significantly closer.

I'm not denying that there are cops that specifically target black people. I'm denying that there is some kind of systemic anti-black campaign of violence being conducted by our police and government, because the numbers just plain don't support it.

This line of thinking suggests some form of police-sanctioned ethnic cleansing is going on, but the numbers we have in the US don't even come close to the death tolls in actual ethnic cleansing events.

Compare all of this to, say, a poacher taking whatever game he can get. Maybe there are a few hundred fowl, several dozen rabbits, and a handful of deer. He makes off with 2 of each; there are more fowl and rabbits but they don't make themselves as visible as targets. These represent a tiny portion of the fowl and rabbit population, but a significantly higher portion of the deer population. Did the poacher specifically target deer over fowl and rabbits just because the percentage was higher?

Setting the fact that the numbers don't support this aside for the moment, there are some other problems with your position that I'll respond to with questions.

unnecessary violence

The total deaths aren't particularly important here, so much as the deaths that we classify as "unnecessary." If a cop is in a firefight, for example, any perpetrators killed in the exchange are done so by necessity, regardless of the race involved. So we need to examine the criteria for unnecessary violence.

1) What constitutes unnecessary violence?

2) Are we looking at these events with 20/20 hindsight, or from the perspective at the time the killings were committed? I believe the latter is the only appropriate one if trying to establish that police are intentionally targeting black people specifically when such is not necessary.

caucasians... [vs] ...african americans

Once we've established criteria for how much violence is and is not necessary, we then need to establish a disparity between white people and black people re: unnecessary police killings.

3) Of the violence deemed unnecessary, are there more instances targeting caucasians or african americans?

4) Same question, but controlling for the local population's racial makeup around each accused police district.

5) Same question, but further controlling for economic class.

systemic trend

This assumes that the answers to 1 and 2 are reasonable, and that the answers to 3-5 all suggest that african americans are overly targeted.

6) Can a violent police-sanctioned anti-black trend, by the criteria noted in these questions, be established throughout the majority of the US?

Jace(5222) Clarified
1 point

I appreciate your argument, but it would be a good deal more credible if you even once cited the original statistical basis for your claims regarding demographics and police violence (general and lethal).

Lacking access to your source materials, I can still identify some flaws in your rationale itself. You argue that urban racial demographics are roughly equitable between whites and blacks, but given that the overwhelming majority of the U.S. population is urban dwelling (source) it hardly follows that the white:black ratio would change so drastically as you claim.

Even were your claim accurate, the manner in which you present it falsely homogenizes U.S. urban areas by relying on a national urban average rather than examining individual urban areas. Similarly, relying upon national rates of urban police violence fails to hold localized rates relative to their corresponding urban areas. So, even if it held true that nationally whites have 2X the lethal police violence rate than blacks with a nationally equitable urban racial distribution it may very well be the case that both those rates change dependent upon the urban area in question. By generalizing the data and abstracting it from the original context of occurrence, you render the data incapable of speaking to this issue at either a localized or national level.

I would further suggest that you cannot actually find the data to support your conclusions quite simply because it does not exist. Transparency and accountability are abysmal, with reporting being inconsistent, misrepresentative, and voluntary.

1 point

So what is your problem?

Mindless partisan regurgitation, perhaps?

FromWithin(8241) Disputed
1 point

Hogwash!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! There is a far higher percentage of crime from African Americans so therefore there will be more deaths. Spew your Left wing rhetoric to the low end voters. They will eat it right up.

4 points

You actually made quite a good point here. Shame it is so well hidden behind the insults and angry-granddad-style ranting that no one will appreciate it.

daver(1771) Disputed
1 point

Trend YES. Indication of Systemic racially motivated violence.

DON'T THINK SO.

Stickers(1037) Clarified
1 point

DUN DUN DUUUNNNNNN .

daver(1771) Disputed
1 point

You are claiming that there is a systemic flaw in our law enforcement organizations, that causes African Americans to be the victims of unnecessary violence. You go on to say that you can demonstrate that this is fact. If this systemic flaw existed, it should be apparent in crime statistics. Can you point them out

Or perhaps on a crime map

3 points

Classic case of missing the point entirely. No one is claiming police only kill non-white people. They are claiming they disproportionately kill non-white people.

FromWithin(8241) Disputed
1 point

The only one's claiming the lie of Racism running rampant are race bating Democrats! Reprehensible!

GenericName(3430) Disputed Banned
2 points

Just a week ago you claimed racism in that college class, a story picked up and repeated over and over by FOX.

Did you forget about that?

TheDemocrat(18) Disputed Banned
2 points

The only one's claiming the lie of Racism running rampant are race bating Democrats! Reprehensible!

Should a African-American vote Republican? Your plight is a lie. The democrats just make it up. Racism? What racism?

A democrat recognizes the struggles that you face in today's society and we are ready to fight for as long and as hard as it takes until African-Americans are truly equal in our society. Vote Democrats.

Jace(5222) Disputed
1 point

Oh, please. Republicans are playing the race game just as much right now, albeit from the other side. Neither party can generally be bothered with the actual facts.

2 points

The media have a lot to be responsible for in generating public feeling and opinion.

We should expect unbiased reporting of events without bias however we are fed sensationalistic, exaggerated and opinionated information that may or may not be valid so there is little wonder there is dissension in society.

I read recently that a Russian agency decided to only report good news stories and they lost two thirds of their listeners within a very short period of time.

The public plays a significant role in what we subscribe to and accept and we get what we pay for.

There is nothing wrong with reporting bad news as well as good news. It's all about simply reporting the news without an agenda of garnering votes for either party. Simply report both the news of when a white police officer kills a black man, and when a black officer kills a white man. I will do one better. How about not mentioning the race of those involved. Why should it matter the race of the Cop or the race of the person killed. I wish our media and Politicians stopped playing politics and started bringing people together instead of using race for political purposes.

2 points

Well in this particular debate one must look at both sides of the races. If you look at the events occurring in Ferguson you will find a mixture of hypocrisy. When I heard the news on this issue I immediately put down my playboy magazine and went onto foxnews.com to read more about the issue. I believe we all need to become grey so that way we can get along. I suggest we all jump in a pool of melted down grey crayons and join hand while singing lorde. Thank You.

1 point

Oh, and do you want me to provide just SO much evidence of FOX race baiting? Like race baiting on par with MSNBC levels of it? I'd be happy to.

FromWithin(8241) Disputed
1 point

I could care less what cheery picked evidence you could provide. Both sides can make their side look correct with so called evidence or facts. I live in this nation every day. I see what is happening every day. I need no biased Liberal spewing his so called statistics and facts. I have a simple brain used to see reality.

GenericName(3430) Disputed Banned
1 point

No, you just want to go to FOX so you can have a biased Conservative spew their so called statistics and facts.

Do you really think your extremely limited experiences are sufficient to contradict statistical trends? Or do you just not want to accept them because they contradict your preconceptions?

GenericName(3430) Disputed Banned
1 point

And what about my offer to demonstrate examples of FOX race baiting?

1 point

Were the cops charged with a crime? Is there enough evidence for a trial? The white homeless man in New Mexico generated a trial. This case will probably also have charges filed and an actual trial. The problem is dead black guys have not caused actual trials to take place. A video of a New York police officer using an illegal tactic was not enough evidence to go to trial.

FromWithin(8241) Disputed
1 point

A person is charged with a crime when there is proof of a crime. The next time some criminal assaults you on the street, tries to take your gun, and then runs at you once again, and you defend yourself, tell me what crimes you want to be charged with ok?

If your job is to protect the public from criminals, and a large man is resisting arrest, you must make quick decisions to get control of the situation. You could tazer him if you had a tazer and some people die from being tazered. You could put him in a choke hold momentarily which 99.9% of the time will not harm him(do you watch cage fighting). This man had a medical condition which is what killed him after resisting arrest. Why on EARTH would any type of hold be against the law if it gives you control of a situation without needing to shoot him. Obviously accidents happen in life where it is no one's fault other than the person breaking the law putting himself in harms way.

Put yourself in their shoes before you judge someone.

Cartman(18192) Disputed
1 point

Choke holds are illegal in New York. They are illegal because people die from them. Cutting off the oxygen to someone's brain is dangerous. Regardless of whether you think it's cool to choke people, the state of New York says it is not ok and if a cop does it he is breaking the rules.

In cage fighting the ref will stop the fighter when he has choked the opponent enough. There are no refs for cops.

1 point

In the same week they killed a 7 yrold black girl in her own home.

And ironically if an older woman

has sex with a 19 year old, she goes to jail, lets say she's 25. But if an older man has sex with a younger 19 year old girl, it gets less scandal if he's only 25. Interesting right?

JustIgnoreMe(4290) Clarified
1 point

Interesting - what country are you from (not specified in your profile)? In the US this is not the case. There is a bit more social acceptance of older men dating younger women, but after the age of consent (generally 18, varies slightly by state) - no one would normally go to jail for consentual sex.

ghostheadX(1105) Clarified
1 point

I live in the US but I've seen it on the news all of the time, i.e. the 25 year old hot man going out with a high school girl. I never see the vice versa on the news. It's also in articles but maybe its just me.

It's hard to debate arrogant eletes who think they have the right to race bate, creating an environment of riots, executions of innocent Cop's, all to garner the Black vote. IT'S SICK!

Who doesn't know there are some racists in every walk of life, in every job classification out there. Yes there are some racist cops just as there are racist Politicians including Rev. Al Sharpton as well as Obama's Reverend of 20 years Rev. Write. These people are racists and the Democrats cozy right up to them. Just because we will ALWAYS have some racists does not mean the Police force is racist and does not make any cop who kills a Black man racist. Only fools would suggest such mindless propaganda.

Just as with school shootings, the Democrat party will use any tragedy to push their Gun control, their racism rhetoric all for reasons of politics and pushing their extreme Left agendas.

GenericName(3430) Disputed Banned
1 point

FOX and Conservatives race bate just as much as Liberals, but you never complain about them doing it.

And there are multiple "extreme left agendas" now? Oh please, do go on!

FromWithin(8241) Disputed
1 point

Again you do what most Liberals do. You say Fox & Conservatives do it too. We've already been through your hogwash rhetoric. You have yet to give me an example of their race bating that stirred up riots.

I don't want to hear anything about Fox responding to sensationalized stories by the Liberal media. Were it not for the Left, none of these stories of supposed racism would have ever hit the news.