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35
47
True False
Debate Score:82
Arguments:166
Total Votes:83
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 True (33)
 
 False (40)

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Stryker(849) pic



The Christian god qualifies as a maximal being. (Attn: Lolzors)

I've already posted a debate about the ontological argument not being sound, now I would like to look at the Christian god, and discuss whether or not he qualifies as the maximal being that the ontological argument tries to demonstrate. Maximal just means the highest that can be realized, nothing more.

For this debate, use the following definition for a maximal being:

A maximal being is maximal in all attributes, non-contradictory, and if it exists it would exist in all possible worlds.

 

 

 

True

Side Score: 35
VS.

False

Side Score: 47
1 point

The God of the Bible is omnipotent, omniscient, and omni-benevolent. Sub categories branch off from those three into other aspects. The God of the Bible is all three of these things.

Side: True
Quocalimar(6470) Disputed
2 points

You can't say he's omnibenevolent after what was done to Job. You can't say he is omnibenevolent after sending even one person to hell. You also can't use your "biblically speaking excuse" because the definition, the English one, does not allow it. An omnibenevolent person wouldn't do those things.

Side: False
lolzors93(3225) Disputed
1 point

Neither of those arguments follow. God works all things according to the counsel of His will for the good of those who love Him.

Side: True
Stryker(849) Clarified
1 point

I'm still working to construct an argument. Would you please provide me with the Bible verses you believe state the Christian god is omnipotent, omniscient, and omni-benevolent?

Side: True
lolzors93(3225) Clarified
1 point

Omnipotence.. Job 42:2 -- "I know that you can do all things, and that no purpose of yours can be thwarted."

Omniscience.. 1 John 3:20 -- "for whenever our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and he knows everything."

Omni-benevolence.. 1 John 4:8 -- "Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love."

Side: True

It's not often talked about but, the aliens at Roswell had a statue of Jesus on the dashboard of their UFO. ;)

Side: True
joecavalry(37385) Clarified
1 point

True story. ;)

Side: True
Cartman(18192) Disputed
1 point

You are probably mistaking illegals for aliens. Those guys love to have Jesus on their dashboard.

Side: False

The UFOs were not low riders and illegals don't drive flying saucers ;)

Side: False
1 point

I guess we're assuming that the ontological argument proves a god (a maximal being) exists. In knowing that such a being exists we have to accept that with our human minds there are things about it that we don't understand but yet its qualities are still maximally great.

The ontological argument certainly doesn't prove the existence of the Christian god but I don't think it rules it out either.

Side: True
2 points

Argument One:

This argument is under the framework that the Christian god has perfect knowledge of the future. Any replies not structured under this framework will be ignored.

The Christian god is not maximal in justice. He created a being with the intent to punish him. The Christian god created The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, he then created Adam and promised punishment for an action he knew Adam would commit, eating from the tree. The Christian god created a rule with the punishment of death for a being he knew would break that rule, this isn't a demonstration of justice.

If follows that before creating Adam, the Christian god knew that Adam's sin would lead man's sinful nature, he also knew that there would be punishment for all those who reject Jesus (who came to redeem us from original sin). The Christian god created a system where he would send all those who reject Jesus to Hell, knowing in advanced that he would there would be people who wouldn't accept Jesus. If one believes that Hell is a place of eternal punishment, this would demonstrate that the Christian god is maximally unjust.

Side: False
lolzors93(3225) Disputed
1 point

The Christian god is not maximal in justice. He created a being with the intent to punish him. The Christian god created The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, he then created Adam and promised punishment for an action he knew Adam would commit, eating from the tree. The Christian god created a rule with the punishment of death for a being he knew would break that rule, this isn't a demonstration of justice.

This is a non sequitur. Justice is subjective unless God is the objective standard. Also, though man meant it for evil, God meant it for good in absolution.

If follows that before creating Adam, the Christian god knew that Adam's sin would lead man's sinful nature, he also knew that there would be punishment for all those who reject Jesus (who came to redeem us from original sin). The Christian god created a system where he would send all those who reject Jesus to Hell, knowing in advanced that he would there would be people who wouldn't accept Jesus. If one believes that Hell is a place of eternal punishment, this would demonstrate that the Christian god is maximally unjust.

This is a non sequitur as well. The only way to have injustice is to have a system of objectivism, which can only be based in God's nature. Read Romans 9:

14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion,[b] but on God, who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? 25 As indeed he says in Hosea,

Side: True
Stryker(849) Clarified
2 points

Interesting, so everything that the Christian god does is by definition good and just, right?

So, I'm sure you are ready for this one, but lets get it out of the way. How does the Christian god qualify as maximally evil?

Side: True
2 points

Argument Two:

The Christian god is not both maximally personal and maximally efficient in communication. If he was both, everyone would have the same understanding of him, but this isn't what we see in reality. I present the following two options:

1)The Christian god is maximally efficient in communication, but is not maximally personal. He has the capability to communicate with us effectively, but is not maximally personal, so we have no reason to expect him to.

2)The Christian god is maximally personal, but not maximally efficient in communication. He desperately wants a personal relationship with each and every person, but can't seem to relate a clear message to any of them. This would explain why there are so many religions, and sects within each religion. The Christian god is communicating with us, but not in an efficient way, hence the confusion.

Side: False
lolzors93(3225) Disputed
1 point

Maximally personal and efficient in communication do not have to be applied to everyone. Communicating with everyone is not a necessity of being maximally efficient in communication. It simply means that the communication is not applied to everyone or the communication is not fully expressed at a time. The same goes with maximally personal, loving, etc. However, for all of these things, God communicates, loves, and is personal maximally to everyone in a broad sense.

Side: True
Stryker(849) Disputed
1 point

The same goes with maximally personal, loving, etc. However, for all of these things, God communicates, loves, and is personal maximally to everyone in a broad sense.

What does "personal maximally to everyone in a broad sense" mean?

Side: False
Quocalimar(6470) Disputed
1 point

Maximally personal and efficient in communication do not have to be applied to everyone.

To a maximally great being, that is fabled as perfect, it does.

Have you honestly ever asked yourself this question about God? I mean you told me you questioned and have already got that we are wrong and you're right, but do you ask the questions that need to be answered?

Namely: Why can't God reveal himself to us? Is it as Stryker says, he doesn't want to or he does not know how to properly in a way that wouldn't make us hate him.

Side: False

This is true.

As Christians tell us, he wants to have a personal relationship with us (although I don't know why such a powerful being needs that self satisfaction) yet as history has shown, and even bible references that I'm not versed enough to quote will show, every time he tried to reveal himself to the masses we shunned him for it, showing that he has terrible communication skills.

It is as you say. He either does not want a relationship with us (not maximally personal) or he wants it but doesn't know how to relay it to us (not maximally efficient in communication. )

Again, great points as usual.

Side: False

Can he see the future? Well actually before that's answered, a personal question.

What exactly is a maximal being? How would us minimal creatures know what maximal actually was? I mean even if God is maximal, how do we know he's actually the greatest there is, and isn't just the greatest of us but somewhere out in the great yonder there isn't some being that's greater?

Side: False
Stryker(849) Clarified
1 point

I mean even if God is maximal, how do we know he's actually the greatest there is.

Rather than that, I'm hoping to find the qualities that the Christian god possesses that are not maximal. That is much easier to demonstrate and discuss.

Side: True
Quocalimar(6470) Clarified
1 point

Wasn't it you who told me that he can't see the future? I think that qualifies.

Side: True
1 point

Is there a greatest possible integer? Noooo,

Is there a greatest possible being? Noooo.

Side: False
Stryker(849) Disputed
1 point

That is a false equivocation. Within reality there is a greatest achievable value for any quality.

Side: True
Nebeling(1118) Disputed
1 point

We have theoretical limits which stem from quantum mechanics, but they are just theoretical. So even within our own reality I wouldn't be so sure. God is supposed to be this super-real, metaphysical thing so even if we have restrictions in our physical world then there's not necessarily anything restricting him.

Given that the Christian God is all powerful etc, God should be able to break any restrictions we might have. There of course could some God-restricting effects, but that of course is debatable.

Side: False