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I never understood your question. Please explain. :)The minimum length for an argument is 50 characters. The purpose of this restriction is to cut down on the amount of dumb jokes, so we can keep the quality of debate and discourse as high as possible.
By your logic, does this mean that because there are more Pagans living in the world today compared to Christians, that the Pagan gods are much better than the Christian god?
Operational Definition of Pagan for this post: a person who is not a Christian.
Before you stated that a Pagan is a non-Christian. So what would a Pagan God be? Muslim? Hindi? Buddhist? And yes, Christians want to worship the best, most positive God there is, which is the Christian God in their minds.
Before you stated that a Pagan is a non-Christian. So what would a Pagan God be? Muslim? Hindi? Buddhist?
Any of them, since they are all considered Pagan by the definition we've chosen to operate on for this debate.
Side note: The definition I gave is partially my own. I decided that I would exclude one of the dictionary definitions which states one use of the term Pagan is to mean any person who is not a Christian, Jew or Muslim. And I decided to exclude the Jew or Muslim part because I took into consideration you may not believe one or both do not believe in the same God as you believe in, and didn't want to get us side-tracked.
And yes, Christians want to worship the best, most positive God there is, which is the Christian God in their minds.
In their minds, yes. But why did you point out the estimated number of Christians living today when answering whether or not Satan is bad compared to God?
I inferred that this number must be of great significance; that the greater number of people who believe wouldn't believe if God was a bad guy.
So that makes me wonder, if there was a religious population larger than the Christian population, doesn't that make their god[s] better than the Christian god?
Any of them, since they are all considered Pagan by the definition we've chosen to operate on for this debate.
OK, but then I could say the same thing that you are saying about Christianity about all of those religions. There are more non-Hindi gods than there are Hindi gods, therefore Hindi gods are not as good as non-Hindi gods.
In their minds, yes. But why did you point out the estimated number of Christians living today when answering whether or not Satan is bad compared to God?
I'm saying 1 billion+ people believe the Christian God to be benevolent. They think that He is not a bad guy. The Christian God is determined by the Christians. Why would 1 billion+ people believe in a lesser God than another in their minds?
So that makes me wonder, if there was a religious population larger than the Christian population, doesn't that make their god[s] better than the Christian god?
Not necessarily. Larger popularity does not mean more benevolence. The people belonging to this religion would believe their God to be best, and their God would not be evil, because they would not worship a God that they believed was evil. However, this isn't the debate. You are bringing up a whole new argument.
OK, but then I could say the same thing that you are saying about Christianity about all of those religions. There are more non-Hindi gods than there are Hindi gods, therefore Hindi gods are not as good as non-Hindi gods.
Of course you can, but we're simply talking about Christian vs. Pagan god[s]. And the reason I am generalizing is because otherwise we'd have to do this about the different sects and denominations of Christianity.
I'm saying 1 billion+ people believe the Christian God to be benevolent. They think that He is not a bad guy.
Yeah, but all of the Pagans don't think they're gods are bad either. And there are more of them. So why doesn't that mean that the Pagan gods are better than the Christian god?
The Christian God is determined by the Christians.
I thought God was determined by God? Are you saying he conforms to whatever the Christians believe him to be?
Why would 1 billion+ people believe in a lesser God than another in their minds?
They wouldn't. There are facts that we do not acknowledge because we are not aware of them or do not want to accept them, how do we know this isn't one of them?
Not necessarily. Larger popularity does not mean more benevolence.
Unless they believed it to be so, right?
The people belonging to this religion would believe their God to be best, and their God would not be evil, because they would not worship a God that they believed was evil.
So what determines who is right?
However, this isn't the debate. You are bringing up a whole new argument.
Not really, I'm attempting to get you to reconsider your original dispute that I replied to.
Of course you can, but we're simply talking about Christian vs. Pagan god[s].
Again, these gods would fall into the category of Pagan gods, according to your previously given definition.
Yeah, but all of the Pagans don't think they're gods are bad either. And there are more of them. So why doesn't that mean that the Pagan gods are better than the Christian god?
This is faulty logic. Of course there are more non-Christians than Christians. But all of these can be broken down into different religions who have different gods. You'll find that Islam and Christianity are the two highest followed religions in the world. So actually, these would be the majorities. Because Pagans cannot be grouped together, because there are dozens of different religions among them.
I thought God was determined by God? Are you saying he conforms to whatever the Christians believe him to be?
Well yes, Christians would say God is determined by God. But Christians determine the interpretation of what God determines himself to be. I'm saying that the interpretation of an Atheist might be that God is an evil concept. But it the Christians' interpretation that matters. A Christian wouldn't worship and evil God, would he?
They wouldn't. There are facts that we do not acknowledge because we are not aware of them or do not want to accept them, how do we know this isn't one of them?
I'm not sure what you are saying. Elaborate.
Unless they believed it to be so, right?
Wrong.
So what determines who is right?
Nothing really can. We will just all find out who was right and who was wrong when we die.
Not really, I'm attempting to get you to reconsider your original dispute that I replied to.
Well it hasn't worked. It seems silly for 1 billion+ people to worship a God that is more evil than the devil.
the point of this debate is too debate wether or not satan is really bad compared to god, not to ask what the christians think. and people who think that the 100% biblical christian god is worse than satan is justified when you look at what god in that book did, and what satan did. Im not saying that its the christian god that only matters but the reason this person probably brought up this debate is to argue wether or not satan is all that bad compared to god, and because iv seen this before hes probably refering to the hardcore biblical interpretation. I think pointing out the contrast is a good point on its own, it shows how silly the bible can be sometimes when taken to the extreme.
No. People do not commit to Christianity out of fear. They do it because they think it is right, and they believe God deserves to be worshiped and followed.
Some do commit to Christianity out of fear. Many actually do. I do not know the population of this group, but it is pretty common in my experience of debating religion and religious related issues.
I can tell you that i started to follow Christianity because of fear. I remember i went to this bible camp. And by the way, it was a beautiful camp. Anyway, the camp counselor/leader told me that if i don't follow the God in the bible or be a christian, i would go to hell.
There are those who go to Christianity out of fear, fear of damnation etc. That is not necessarily bad however as long as they can be taught the true way of Christ, as I call it for lack of better terms right now, the fear can often make them more pliable. Also not bad.
If the eating poorly is bad for your health, why do people continue to do it. Its the same reasoning. Just because the masses do it, it doesn't make it correct.
I suppose it sounded like that, didn't it? This wasn't the argument I was making. I'm saying Christians would not worship a God that they think is evil. These billion plus people have made the interpretation that God isn't evil and that Satan is. Christianity teaches that God is good and Satan is bad.
They can't really be mistaken because they are the ones that interpret the Bible. You can't say that universal Christian beliefs are wrong because it is Christians that determine Christian beliefs. Because Gods are what every religion teaches them to be, it is absurd to say that they are wrong in their teachings because all that matters is what Christians believe.
You don't get it. It doesn't have to make sense. It's religion. Whatever people believe to be true in their minds is all that matters. I'm not claiming any religion to be wrong in the sense that the fundamental beliefs of the faith cannot be false in that religious follower's head.
You're opening a whole new can of worms. I could say I believe that giant supernatural teddy bears ruled the universe from afar. This may not be true in the sense that they actually exist. But this belief cannot really be proved false in itself.
What I'm trying to say isn't that easy to explain. Most likely I'm doing a bad job of it. But according to traditional Christian sects, Satan is very bad compared to God. I'm pretty sure that is what the debate is about.
"You don't get it. It doesn't have to make sense. It's religion. Whatever people believe to be true in their minds is all that matters. I'm not claiming any religion to be wrong in the sense that the fundamental beliefs of the faith cannot be false in that religious follower's head."
guess what, if people want to believe in something so incredible go ahead, I believe in freedom of religion BUT that won't stop us from trying to point out how silly it all is. its called being analytical putting things in perspective which you almost did!
"You're opening a whole new can of worms. I could say I believe that giant supernatural teddy bears ruled the universe from afar. This may not be true in the sense that they actually exist. But this belief cannot really be proved false in itself."
see heres where you put things in perspective you put it all right out in front of your nose, and yet somehow its still out of grasp, if you are finally getting to the point where you realize god is equatable to giant supernatural teddy bears, why do you believe in god and not giant supernatural teddy bears?
"What I'm trying to say isn't that easy to explain. Most likely I'm doing a bad job of it. But according to traditional Christian sects, Satan is very bad compared to God. I'm pretty sure that is what the debate is about."
no its not, this debate is from your own personal opinion, not the traditional christians opinion, ABOUT the traditional christian beliefs mostly, cause Iv seen this debate before. a lot would argue that according to the traditionalist christians interpretation of god and the devil, that the devil isn't as bad as god, even if the traditional christian thinks his interpretation is not so.
The debate isn't about traditional christian sects and what they believe.
Its about how Satan compares to god within Christianity.
The first point of debate is what your going to compare them on.
The second is on how to compare them.
The 3rd is what the comparison means.
You can make a long list of values, which might include: who killed less people, who caused the lesser amount of disasters, etc.
How you compare the two entities will vary based on the value, but it will generally include some scripture.
For example, just counting all the deaths attributed to each being in the bible and seeing which one is less would work for seeing who killed less people. So long as attribution can be agreed-ed upon.
It seems pretty clear that Satan killed less people in the bible then god, does this mean that Satan isn't as "bad" as god?
But of course, we weren't debating whether or not Christians believed God to be evil. Naturally, they don't think so, similarly as Buddhists think that Buddha is not evil. (even though he's not a god in that way of thinking) We were discussing if God was more evil than Satan. If you want to come from a Christian's standpoint that's totally fine, but please keep the topic consistent.
Satan is Bad because look what he did he tempted Adam and Eve into sinning and now there is sin in this world. Also Satan tells you bad thoughts on what to do. How can God be bad? He loved us first before we even existed. God showed his love by dying on the cross and raising from the dead after 3 days and that means he conquered death. The person who created this debate Satan told them to do this
You are a moron. Not because you are a Christian, I have no quarrel with that. The fact that you are following half a faith with your head shoved so far up your arse its hard to hear you over the bullshit. Read the Old Testament then talk to me. I think even you'll find that God is not all sunshine and fucking rainbows. Peace be with you, and I hope you are happy in your life.
This was in response to Srom1888's comment starting with "Satan is Bad". Just saying
I am familiar with the Old Testament that God destroyed a lot of people because there were sinning (no rainbow here) .
Why do you think he flooded the earth? He gave all those people time to repent and help Noah build the ark but people laugh and mocked him saying basically the same thing you are to me ( "that I am following half faith with your head shoved so far etc" and did you know at the time Noah did not have the full Bible so If I am only following half what was Noah following?) and you know what today's world is a lot like Noah's day and God message is still Repent, sin no more, turn from your sin and believe in Jesus for salvation before the judgement of the earth again.
How about this that God also used other Nations to teach Israel not to worship idols and false gods in Old Testament. (No sunshine here) What was his message repent turn to ME the only God.
What about Sodom and Gomorrah? Why did he destroy the city because of sin? (Homosexuality) and it's like that today people saying that right when clearly it is wrong.
God killed millions of people with the great flood. Since the bible also states that God knows all and has a divine plan which supposedly is in action, then he has killed billions. From people dying of cancer, from the creation of the devil, holocaust, accidents, disasters, 9/11 then God has truly killed billions. Satan is merely a God's creation for he knows all that will happen which therefore meant that God knew that this specific angel would turn against him. But this would be all true if the bible weren't such contradictory BS trying to revert what was previously written.
He killed millions of people in the great flood because Noah was the only one who was serving him. God didn't create the devil. Lucifer was a angel and he thought about how he would run the kingdom better than God and then God sent Satan as well as other angels down with him to hell and he is still roaming around today doing evil stuff. Satan told those people to crash the plane into the twin towers. The reason we have all these different diseases is because sin entered this world because of Adam and Eve
"He killed millions of people in the great flood because Noah was the only one who was serving him."
how fucked up, god will kill you if you don't serve him, thats not a good god.
"God didn't create the devil. Lucifer was a angel and he thought about how he would run the kingdom better than God and then God sent Satan as well as other angels down with him to hell and he is still roaming around today doing evil stuff."
god knew that this was exactly whats going to happen as he was creating him.
"Satan told those people to crash the plane into the twin towers."
how do you know that? those people did what they did because raised by there culture and religion allowed them to become those type of people. the devil had nothing to do with it.
"The reason we have all these different diseases is because sin entered this world because of Adam and Eve"
so god is going to contaminate us with diseases because we lied? because we had sex? thats not a good god.
Well in Noah's time he flooded the earth with water and God said he will never flood the earth again. The reason why is Noah was the only person that served God back then. Look now he doesnt kill you for not believing in him.God gave us free will on what to believe in him.I know that Satan told them that because Satan is the one that gives you bad thoughts on what to say and people listen to them Like you just swore at me with the first reply to my thing I said Satan told you to swear at me. God is not going to contaminate us with diseases. Satan is the one that makes us sick because in the book of Job Satan put sores on all of his body. You wont get sick when you are having sex but you could get HIV/Aids. If you would have known how much God loves you and did so much for you I bet you would believe in God.
"Well in Noah's time he flooded the earth with water and God said he will never flood the earth again."
well if I cause mass murder and then promise to not do it again, am I justified?
" The reason why is Noah was the only person that served God back then."
once again, how is it right for god to kill someone because they aren't convinced of his existence?
"Look now he doesnt kill you for not believing in him."
he shouldn't have in the first place
"God gave us free will on what to believe in him."
we should have had that all along
"I know that Satan told them that because Satan is the one that gives you bad thoughts on what to say and people listen to them Like you just swore at me with the first reply to my thing I said Satan told you to swear at me."
this is a big fallacy to blame everything on satan, satan didn't ask me to swear, thats simply how I communicated. btw I never swore at you, I swore in my rebutal, the swear word in no way had anything to do with you.
"God is not going to contaminate us with diseases. Satan is the one that makes us sick because in the book of Job Satan put sores on all of his body."
ok thats a little different, but first to blame anything on the devil, you have to prove 1.) the devil exists 2.) that it was the devil. and god still created the devil, even if he gave the devil free will he knew this would happen if he created him, he could have made him a different person by nature, but he didn't. of course this is if god was real and this interpretation and religion was the correct one.
" You wont get sick when you are having sex but you could get HIV/Aids."
do you even know what HIV/Aids are? they are STDs sexually transmitted DISEASES.
"If you would have known how much God loves you and did so much for you I bet you would believe in God."
the reason I don't believe in god, is because there is no evidence of god, when you say that, yes you are true if I KNEW god did all that I would believe in him, If I KNEW god was this evil thing I would still believe in his existence but I wouldn't be on his side. so that statement is completely correct, but you DON'T know that god did all that for us, you read it out of a book.
In Noah's time the reason why God destroyed the earth with the flood is because people were doing wicked thing like murdering each other for silly reasons,lying,cheating,a lot gays/lesbians. Also they disobeyed God's commandments because of all the evil that was going on. Children were having sex with there parents, cousins with cousins, fathers and daugher in laws and all sorts of stuff they did.
When you first started to swear Satan told you to keep doing it because you think of what to say next and the person that is giving you bad thoughts are Satan and sometimes you and I listen to him. Also the reason why I dont swear is because in the Bible it says in Ephesians 4:29 to not swear. Also the swear word are harsh when you say it to someone. Also when on accident I swear I feel bad after I say the word.
Yes I read it out of the Bible its a book filled with different books combined into one book. There is evidence that God exist the Bible has so many verse that tells that God exists. Also if God didnt exist then we shouldnt have the USA today because our Founding Fathers were Christians and they believed in God and thought this will be a Christian nation. If you compare George Washingtons army against are army today,George Washingtons army would win because they had God on their side.
I have a question when you die and its time for your Judgement and God is right in front of you are you going to believe right there?
"In Noah's time the reason why God destroyed the earth with the flood is because people were doing wicked thing like murdering each other for silly reasons,lying,cheating,a lot gays/lesbians. Also they disobeyed God's commandments because of all the evil that was going on. Children were having sex with there parents, cousins with cousins, fathers and daugher in laws and all sorts of stuff they did."
okay, thats a bit different... now prove to me 100% of humanity did that, prove to me that there was no other good person other than noah, prove all this to me, otherwise god killed a lot of innocent people. he also killed babies, how can babies done anything wrong? and animals, etc. you get my point, not everything he killed in teh flood could have been evil not all of it. therefore it was not justified. also whats wrong with gays/lesbians?
"When you first started to swear Satan told you to keep doing it because you think of what to say next and the person that is giving you bad thoughts are Satan and sometimes you and I listen to him. Also the reason why I dont swear is because in the Bible it says in Ephesians 4:29 to not swear. Also the swear word are harsh when you say it to someone. Also when on accident I swear I feel bad after I say the word."
I'd like to ask why god would care about a bunch of sounds and symbols we humans stringed together and subjectively assigned meaning to? why does he care? if someone swears but didn't mean anything bad, just because they made that string of syllabuls he did something horrible?
"Yes I read it out of the Bible its a book filled with different books combined into one book. There is evidence that God exist the Bible has so many verse that tells that God exists. Also if God didnt exist then we shouldnt have the USA today because our Founding Fathers were Christians and they believed in God and thought this will be a Christian nation. If you compare George Washingtons army against are army today,George Washingtons army would win because they had God on their side."
you do realize that the founding fathers were mostly diests and not christians, and a lot of them despised christianity in some sense. or at least what it did. no an army does not win just because god is on thier side. that is not why we won. we colonized america for religious freedom yes, but ironically later on we started prosecuting each other over religion. the bible is not proof of god, and no the founding fathers were not all christian. even if they were all christian, that would not prove that thier christianity had anything to do with thier success, other than motivation and influence by the pure concept itself.
"I have a question when you die and its time for your Judgement and God is right in front of you are you going to believe right there?"
yes I will because Ill finally have proof! whats wrong with that? I have no reason right now to believe in god because I have not been given reason to do so, and a reason to believe anything is credibility, and credibility is evidence. what point are you trying to make here?
Yes Noah and his children was the only ones that believed in him. He probably killed the babies because the people who were wicked made the baby so thats why he killed babies. Whats wrong with gays and lebsians its really unatural and your suppose to have marriage between one man and one women.
God cares about those swear words because if I am a Christian and start swearing then people will think that I shouldnt be swearing as a Christian.
The Founding Fathers were no atheists if you read America's and God and Country by William J. Federer most of there quotes are derived from the Bible. And 98% of what they quote is from the Bible. The book is just mentioned is a encylopedia of all the people who were Christian in our Founding Father's time.
You do realize that when as soon as you see God when you die and start believing in Him just because you saw him your not going to go to Heaven because God is going to judge what you have done on earth. He will say to you its too late you choose not to believe in me on earth and you should have followed me on earth. And then you will be sent down to hell because you choose to be a atheist. I hope someday you follow Jesus as you Lord and Saviour and you start believing in Him. I hope someday we will see each other in Heaven one day!
"Yes Noah and his children was the only ones that believed in him. He probably killed the babies because the people who were wicked made the baby so thats why he killed babies."
so just because someone is born by someone who is evil makes them evil? that isn't right, see there are moderate theists, and then there are theists who let god get in the way of reasoning. if you truly believe that babies deserve to die because there parents were horrible people then you're obviously stupid.
"Whats wrong with gays and lebsians its really unatural and your suppose to have marriage between one man and one women."
marriage is whatever we define marriage to be, so marriage CAN be between one man and one woman. defign natural, what makes it unnatural? objectively EVERYTHING is natural even the worse stuff out there, whats "natural" should have nothing to do with morality.
"God cares about those swear words because if I am a Christian and start swearing then people will think that I shouldnt be swearing as a Christian."
but why? its one thing if someone tells another to F-off or etc, mean it in a bad way in other words, but why do the words themselves matter? its the meaning that matters? and even then Its not that big of a deal, words are words.
"The Founding Fathers were no atheists if you read America's and God and Country by William J. Federer most of there quotes are derived from the Bible. And 98% of what they quote is from the Bible. The book is just mentioned is a encylopedia of all the people who were Christian in our Founding Father's time."
it even says in our constitution that we were not founded as a christian nation.
"You do realize that when as soon as you see God when you die and start believing in Him just because you saw him your not going to go to Heaven because God is going to judge what you have done on earth. He will say to you its too late you choose not to believe in me on earth and you should have followed me on earth. And then you will be sent down to hell because you choose to be a atheist."
what did I do so wrong that I deserve to be punished an infinite amount of pain for an infinite amount of time, here where I can only do a finite thing? if god really sent me to hell because I wasn't convinced of his existence thats a horrible god I wouldn't want to follow anyways. I am perfectly justified not to believe in him, belief is about reality it isn't a right or wrong choice.
"I hope someday you follow Jesus as you Lord and Saviour and you start believing in Him. I hope someday we will see each other in Heaven one day!"
A muslim can say the exact same thing to you, same with hindus, jews, and anyother religion out there. what if you died, saw the MUSLIM god and he sent you to hell for not believing in him and for believing in the christian god?
I am going to stop debating with you over this issue. This could go on for who knows when. I am going to let you live the life accordly they way you want to live it. I have no problem with you being a atheist you choose what to no believe in a God. I hope some day that you accecpt Jesus as your personal Lord and Saviour some day. I will pray for you. It was nice talking and debating with you but I got to move on with my life. If you dont believe then God will decide where you will go in eternity.
Regardless if Noah and his children were the ONLY ones to serve him, he would have had to know this would happen. He has a divine plan, thus he mapped everything that would ever happen.
Yes marriage in the Christian sense is simply to be between men and women, however the act of being gay or lesbian is not a sin by the bible. However laying with another man should you be a man or another woman should you be a woman in the sexual sense, is a sin. I say sexual sense because Jesus laid next to a man to keep him warm if I can remember correctly.
While they as far as we know America's Founding Fathers were not Atheists, they were however not Christian. Most of them seemed to have critical problems with Christianity or rather what had come from it in their time. The country was formed for religious freedom, not Christianity. See the Constitution for your proof.
On top of what has been argued already to rebut this point I would like to add to it. Aside from the fact that you may encounter another religion's God at the end of your days, how can you be so sure of God's reply due to someone being Atheist? By saying that you know God WOULD damn said person for not believing in you, you would be calling yourself God. You cannot know another person's thoughts, nor can you know a deity's thoughts.
By the bible Atheist, Christian, and other are all God's children. Would he really damn his children simply because he provides no proof of his existence yet wishes for them to believe and worship him? Aside from that his divine plan would show that he knew they would not believe in him. Or does being given free will eliminate the fact that he still knows what decision's people will make? I do not think so.
I guess flooding the world because Noah wouldn't serve him is more fucked up than burning and torturing people for all of eternity in an endless fiery pit?
I never said that, I never once equated the evils of hell to the world flood. you are putting in a new element, a variable, etc, into this. if you asked me whats worse I'd say hell, if you try to justify the flood I'll debate with you on wether or not that is justifiable. you are asking a very irreleavent question. ohh I see what you're saying lol, why should he torture people for all eternity because they didn't believe in him. thats messed up, he wouldn't send people to hell anyways, in order for anyone to deserve an infinite pain for an infinite amount of time for a finite action? actually when I thought you were saying I was wrong cause hell's worse evil I thought you were proving my point at first LOL, you still kinda are ;)
Wrong. God didn't even kill Satan for not serving him. God spread his word in the 10 commandments, and through Jesus Christ, which is a message of love, peace and good morality. Do not steal, kill, covet thy neighbors wife, ect. He is a Good and just God. Satan is misleading, and working everyday here on earth as he did with adam and eve to corrupt mankind and turn people away from Gods message of love and peace. As far as 911 being caused by Satan, and you saying it was their culture and religion that led them to it, yes I agree, for religions outside Christ I believe are plants by Satan to lead people astray. I knew when I saw a video of an 8 year old slitting a mans throat in front of a mosque with grown men and other kids cheering him on and creepy mosque music playing in the back that this was not a Godly thing. Crimes in Christian history are on the back of the Catholic Church, which was not going by the word of the bible and was obviously very corrupt. If people talk down on Christianity we may discuss it, but you will never see us making death threats to producers of south park for showing Jesus because we are taught peace and love. Satan on the other hand teaches hate and intolerance...Do you see any connection to Islam?
As far as 911 being caused by Satan, and you saying it was their culture and religion that led them to it, yes I agree, for religions outside Christ I believe are plants by Satan to lead people astray.
That belief is only justified if you can prove beyond reasonable doubt that Christianity is the true religion. Good luck with that :)
I knew when I saw a video of an 8 year old slitting a mans throat in front of a mosque with grown men and other kids cheering him on and creepy mosque music playing in the back that this was not a Godly thing.
Whereas mass murder, touching little kids, stealing from the poor, mass discrimination, racism and sexism are all Godly things?
Crimes in Christian history are on the back of the Catholic Church, which was not going by the word of the bible and was obviously very corrupt.
Can the same point not be applied to your previous example? If not, you're being hypocritical.
If people talk down on Christianity we may discuss it, but you will never see us making death threats to producers of south park for showing Jesus because we are taught peace and love.
Satan on the other hand teaches hate and intolerance...Do you see any connection to Islam?
I see a connection with religious teachings and ignorance, but that's much more from you than the actual teachings of Islam. Learn what you're talking about, and stop repeating propaganda.
I also see a connection between religious teachings and facts. For example, the consequences of pre-marital sex. Just extra info I am not really disputing you.
You really believe that God is good because he said so, no. He is a child, spoiled by the unconditional worship of millions of idiots and a lack of failure. The Bible is the chronicle of a sociopath, guided by black and white thinking and reassured by his own bullshit. When a child is given complete domain over the world, is never challenged, he becomes rotten, thinks of himself as being somehow entitled to everything, that is your god. Satan is the good one in the bible. He understands that grey exists, that people are not simply good or evil, we're a chaotic neutral species, fooled by generations of bullshit spouted at us by preists about how good and evil are undeniable cosmic forces, and that no one can be any where exceptone side or the other.
Do you think that with all the fruit on the tree that Satan Tempted Eve to eat, that we got all Gods qualities from just one? You presume to think that "When a child is given complete domain over the world, is never challenged, he becomes rotten..." yet you, just like the rest of us have only a tiny part of the emotions, intelligence, and understanding of God? Very Tiny. You are actually so conceited, that you deny something that teaches love and good morality in favor of supporting not having to try, and being "cool" with having a grey shade of morality? Its sinking low when immorality is not only argued as good, but celebrated and justified. I am far from perfect, but I will never say well screw it I'm fine with the bad things I do. Bad is just what society makes it anyway so since I disagree I don't care... no, I know when I wrong someone or do something evil I feel bad. I have a conscience, and that conscience in all of us is God trying to guide you away from that bad path you are going. We are not all just chaotic neutral grey, we all have that voice in our head. Its rather or not you listen to it, or succumb to being selfish and try to get what will immediately satisfy you at the time, regardless of if you feel wrong about it. The post you made has me sure you have never read the bible, or thought about what Jesus was teaching man. You have become a tool of the devil, "Satan is the good one in the bible" and I will pray for you to see it.
And is death really that bad? Is it so horrible to die when you know that you are saved. Early Christians celebrated death more than they mourned or feared it, perhaps our culture could use a lesson.
The Dr. Frankenstein, the creator of the monster we call Frankenstein wasn't all powerful, all knowing and the creator of everything that exists. That makes all the difference.
Having all that power and creating that evil while letting it happen, someone could make the argument that the creator of that evil is worse.
It's easy enough to make the argument that if you have the power to stop an evil, let alone one you created, and you don't do it, you are just as bad if not worse as the evil.
I was addressing the argument Scumbarge made. It made no mention of the qualities of God. However, I will now address it because you brought it up.
Having all that power and creating that evil while letting it happen, someone could make the argument that the creator of that evil is worse.
Everything God created began as good. Obviously, he knew that Lucifer would fall from grace and become Satan. However, this was a result of free will. Lucifer made the choice to become evil, which alone makes him despicable. This most likely fits in with God's idea of good shining as a result of evil.
It's easy enough to make the argument that if you have the power to stop an evil, let alone one you created, and you don't do it, you are just as bad if not worse as the evil.
This might not be such an easy argument to make. God's divine plan is to stop the evil of Satan. He will do so. Whether he does it now or later is dependent upon progress made in the free will and goodness of people. The sooner God defeats the devil, more people go to Hell. As Christianity continues to grow, he God defeats Satan much later, most people will be Christian and the apocalypse will not be so deadly.
There are some aspects of God that cannot be explained. However, most can be explained up to a point that gives people reason to believe in Christianity. Now, all of these points you've mentioned have been made before. If these were complete refutations of God, people would cease to believe in him. Obviously, this is not the case, as Christianity continues to grow around the World. Using pure logic in religion may make it seem a bit foolish, but that which is supernatural often transcends Earthly logic. If we knew what God knew, instead of pointless facts and figures about math, science, and history, we would all believe in him. Unfortunately, we are all simple humans armed with little wisdom and largely unimportant knowledge.
"Everything God created began as good. Obviously, he knew that Lucifer would fall from grace and become Satan. However, this was a result of free will. Lucifer made the choice to become evil, which alone makes him despicable. This most likely fits in with God's idea of good shining as a result of evil."
god being all powerful and all knowing, he would be capable of controlling all cause and effect throught out the universe anywhere. he would be capable of creating a universe with his creations built to do the right thing on thier own free will.
"This might not be such an easy argument to make. God's divine plan is to stop the evil of Satan. He will do so. Whether he does it now or later is dependent upon progress made in the free will and goodness of people. The sooner God defeats the devil, more people go to Hell."
I fail to see how more people would go to hell without satan...
"As Christianity continues to grow, he God defeats Satan much later, most people will be Christian and the apocalypse will not be so deadly."
an all powerfull being cannot stop his own creation?
"There are some aspects of God that cannot be explained. However, most can be explained up to a point that gives people reason to believe in Christianity."
a book written by people falsly claimingan allpowerful being would be just as capable, just because a belief can make some sense does not mean its evident, and you have the right to believe whatever you want, but I still think its not the logical conclusion.
"Now, all of these points you've mentioned have been made before. If these were complete refutations of God, people would cease to believe in him. Obviously, this is not the case, as Christianity continues to grow around the World."
yes they have, and I have yet to see a good argument against it. people are stupid, a person is not. there is such a thing as ignorance in society, and if you believe that popular belief reflects truth, then you have got a lot to learn. truth is, god is just as credible a claim as anything I can pull out of my ass, but people act as though its credible as it has become sociably accepted, and now people don't really realize how silly it all is.
"Using pure logic in religion may make it seem a bit foolish, but that which is supernatural often transcends Earthly logic. if we knew what God knew, instead of pointless facts and figures about math, science, and history, we would all believe in him. Unfortunately, we are all simple humans armed with little wisdom and largely unimportant knowledge.
"
yes it is possible that the logic and knowledge we have now is limited and we may not be able to figure out or know everything, BUT we don't know yet whats wrong with our logic and what works better and as of right now what we are capable of is our most efficient way of going about things. I could claim anything and simply say humanity isn't simply smart enough to understand how its true but that can be used for anything. if god exists we will discover him one day, untill then we have no reason to believe in him, any good ones anways. logically if god could stop his evil creation he would, and saying we aren't smart enough to understand is a stupid counter-argument.
Everything God created began as good. Obviously, he knew that Lucifer would fall from grace and become Satan.
You just refuted your first statement with your second statement.
However, this was a result of free will. Lucifer made the choice to become evil, which alone makes him despicable. This most likely fits in with God's idea of good shining as a result of evil.
If you are omniscient and omnipotent, creating something you know will turn evil, you are still creating evil, easily arguing they are evil themselves. Because you created everything, you knew it was going to happen, you created it anyway, and you have the power to stop it and you don't.
This might not be such an easy argument to make. God's divine plan is to stop the evil of Satan. He will do so. Whether he does it now or later is dependent upon progress made in the free will and goodness of people.
If Lucifer had the free will to fall and turn into Satan before he created humans, then God can defeat Satan now and still leave the freewill to fall to Hell or go to Heaven, just as Lucifer had that free will.
The sooner God defeats the devil, more people go to Hell.
Why?
As Christianity continues to grow, he God defeats Satan much later, most people will be Christian and the apocalypse will not be so deadly.
That makes no sense. Where is the connection?
There are some aspects of God that cannot be explained. However, most can be explained up to a point that gives people reason to believe in Christianity. Now, all of these points you've mentioned have been made before.
Well I never claimed originality. I didn't expect them to be something you haven't heard before, but I haven't debated you on the topic, so I do not know what you have and haven't heard.
If these were complete refutations of God, people would cease to believe in him.
1. Not true. People will believe things without any evidence, even if their belief is refuted, which I have done on several occasions--gotten to the point where I've refuted them so much they acknowledge my points and that they have no refute to it, that I am entirely right--and they'll say they still choose to believe.
2. People do leave Christianity because these refute what they believe and they realize they have no reason to believe.
Obviously, this is not the case, as Christianity continues to grow around the World.
Actually studies show there is a consistent slow decline of Christianity. Not growth. But this is beside the point; the number of humans that believe in something does not determine it's objective validity.
Using pure logic in religion may make it seem a bit foolish, but that which is supernatural often transcends Earthly logic. If we knew what God knew, instead of pointless facts and figures about math, science, and history, we would all believe in him. Unfortunately, we are all simple humans armed with little wisdom and largely unimportant knowledge.
1. God made our brains to process the rules of nature and use logic. God made us to use this logic. So why does it make his way look foolish, if he created us to use it?
2. I wouldn't be calling those facts "pointless". After all, if you've ever used any type of modern technology to help yourself in anyway, you'd have to concede that you use pointless things all the time. This includes the medication that aids your illnesses or prevents your fatality. It's all...pointless.....is it?
I don't see the point of a god creating a being that opposes his objective of bringing people back to him. And some people might say that life is a test and that evil must exist to see the good. But really, what the point of an omniscient being to make a test when he would already know the results? Also, satan punishes the "wicked", wouldn't that make him good? ;)
God is like a good parent, he does grant free will and the beings, be they angels (aka Satan) or people like us choose our own path. Gods way taught in the Bible, is one of peace and love. I believe, and this is just my belief, that after having to destroy everything because people became so corrupt this is why he sent us Jesus. Jesus was half human, and half God while on earth, and showed God what it was like to be man with our imperfections, and this made God understand our moral challenges and shortcomings.
As for part 2, Satan Punishes the wicked, so isn't he good? No. He does punish the wicked, but he tries VERY hard to make neutral, and good people become wicked so he has more people to torment. This is a dual sided victory for him as he corrupts our men and women blinding them to good morality in Gods way, and giving him more people to destroy. He cannot touch the rightous, and therefore has to get in their head and lead them astray first. You can see evidence of this on this forum, on TV, in music, politics, everywhere. Immorality is rampant, spread more everyday. Tell me, when is the last time you went on a date and didnt feel like you could get in her pants the first night if you wanted to? It is now ok, if not celebrated to be a slut, and this is only one small example. It is however fortold that things would get worse and more corrupt in time until the end, when only a small number of people will be left on this earth that try consciously everyday to be a GOOD person. The majority will be corrupted.
How many did Satan himself kill compared to God? Oh wait, God decided to get into the genocide and eternal torture business as disproportionate retribution what Satan simply did: give humanity knowledge. It's in Genesis.
