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The dumbing down of american tv and culture in general
This debate is simple, what has become of american culture, and why has ignorance become something to be celebrated, this culture has largely been exported to Europe but nowhere is it more prounounced than the US itself.
As an example i have choen one of the most enjoyable political debates i have ever seen, it took place in 1969 on a talk show run by the famous conservative William F. Buckley(before anyone says anything about which side i am on i would like to say that i admire Buckley a great deal despite the fact i disagree with him, i beleive him to represent what conservatism in the US used to really stand for). He is debating the intellectual superstar professor Noam Chomsky who was a relative unknown when he appeared on the show. Could a debate like this take place on any mainstream US tv station or network, and if not (you what i think), what does that say about american culture.
Television today mainly is aimed at those people who are not intelligent who just want to escape into another world. And today there are a lot of worlds on television.
There are channels if you want violence, sex, if you want to watch real families self destruct in front of your eyes, sports, movies, cooking....anything that happenes in real life happens for all to see on television.
I just read through this book the other day and some things they said were very shocking.
Statistics are taken from Bill Bennett’s INDEX OF LEADING CULTURAL INDICATORS; AMERICAN SOCIETY AT THE END OF THE TWENTIETH CENTURY.
1. Violent crime up 467% in 40 years
2. The number of state and federal prisoners up 463% in 40 years
3. Out of wedlock births up 461% in 40 years
4. The number of children living in single parent homes up threefold
5. Out of wedlock births account for 32% of all births nationally-highest rate Washington DC at 64% and lowest rate Utah at 17%
6. 26% of ALL pregnancies aborted
7. Gonorrhea infection rates of 150 per 100,000
8. Television turned on 7 hours and 12 minutes a day in the average household.
Look at number 8. So Americans live in front of the television. They did not have a stat for computers, but I would bet that one is even higher.
“Key social indicators suggest that marriage in America is weakening. Americans have been less likely to marry and more likely to divorce. Marriages are also less happy. They found that 54.6 % of girls and 62% of boys felt that cohabitation was a good idea and that 50% of teens believe that out of wedlock childbearing is now a worthwhile lifestyle.”
They suggest that in 100 years Americans more than likely will marry 4 times and have extramarital affairs with NO public censure. This will be looked at as a conscious evolutionary process.
Why is all this happening?
Does sexual promiscuity or any form of amorality leads to happiness? While it is true that self-gratification may lead to immediate pleasure, invariably it sacrifices the permanence of morals and health. Is Television a culprit to all this? How is it affecting society? To say it does not is plainly ignorant.
The pictures that appear in magazines today, the stuff on television show a lot more than they did years ago. You can watch anything you want on television and the internet. Anything. Pornography has gotten a lot worse. Just seeing a womans naked body today is not enough……..we have to see her getting raped, we have to see her screwing a football team, screwing a barnyard full of animals, tied up and tortured. It did not used to be like that. And anyone who wants and enjoys seeing pictures or video scenes of someone being abused is SICK IN THE HEAD.
You watch enough of content like this....you listen to music with content like this and more than likely it will affect you...especially teenagers who are still vulnerable.
I know this debate is about television....but look at the music industry as well. Its pornography and violence set to music.....sick people in the music industry taking advantage of teenagers to make a buck. Kids are impressionable...so its easy and music affects them in more ways than one. I wonder how many were affected by Cobains suicide? I wonder how many kids idolized Ozzy Osbourne? Look at him today. How about Marilyn Manson and morally repugnant bands like Slayer, Nine Inch Nails and Korn? The bulk of rap music has no artistic value at all and nearly every rap song has negative social values. It glorifies criminal behavior, it degrades sex and it especially demeans woman. Little girls want to be like Madonna, Christina A, Britany Spears and now...Gaga and Perry....who all have simulated sex acts while performing on stage in virtually nothing. I was in a store the other day and they had thongs for little girls....TELL ME WHY LITTLE GIRLS NEED THONGS?
“The average teenager listened to 10,500 hours of rock and roll music during the years between 7th and 12th grades.”
(Hearing the Senate Commerce, Science and Transportation Committee,”Subject: TV Rating System,” Federal News Service, 27 February 1997
And this was before the ipod came out. I am sure the number of hours has increased.
I bring up music and internet because I believe they are all responsible and interconnected. They are escapes for our children.
And how many parents know what is going on....the lyrics of the songs their kids listen to, what they watch on television and at the movies?
Nelly a few years back won the Kids Nickelodeon Award.... wrote…..Pimp Juice? Pimp Juice (She only wants me for my pimp juice) Thicky thick Gurls (Lookin like a lollipop waitin for the lick girl) Wrap Sumden (Weed is actually a medicine for me, you know) And the kids of America who watch Nickelodeon voted this rapper as their favorite.
What is pimp juice? Think most parents know? This was on television...as was Gagas performance on the seasons idol where she simulated sex doggie style on a tall platform.
Tell me this does not affect people watching it. The more we view things that are deviant, the more we think its normal. Thats what has happened.
God knows what will be on television in twenty years.......could it get worse? What more could they show?
INTERESTING......
Journal of the American Medical Association, published a survey in which 60% of college students claimed oral sex was not real sex.
“Medical journal raps AMA editor firing,” United Press International, 10 February 1999.
Today sex and especially exploiting children is “in.” We are in fact an oversexed society and television is very much responsible.
Television today mainly is aimed at those people who are not intelligent
What are you basing this on, television is a much broader media than before, if you wish for intelligent programming it's there, just because you either watch pulp media or are ignorant to the true spectrum of entertainment that exists does not mean you are an authority that can outright make this claim.
There are channels if you want violence, sex, if you want to watch real families self destruct in front of your eyes, sports, movies, cooking.
There are channels where you can learn about the latest in scientific discovery, the lives of animals, History, Literature, Philosophy... What is wrong with Cooking and Sports.
1. Violent crime up 467% in 40 years
Statistics are something that I firstly do not trust wholeheartedly and secondly benefit from great improvement that the digital age has brought, and thus if not corrupted can give a greater more accurate figure now than before.
2. The number of state and federal prisoners up 463% in 40 years
I know those damned Christians that make up 81% of the prison population just wont quit.
3. Out of wedlock births up 461% in 40 years
What is so wrong with this?
6. 26% of ALL pregnancies aborted
Better than having a population of children 26% greater with no one to take care of them.
7. Gonorrhea infection rates of 150 per 100,000
And syphilis is down 90%.
8. Television turned on 7 hours and 12 minutes a day in the average household.
A lot of people leave their TV on when not watching it.
They found that 54.6 % of girls and 62% of boys felt that cohabitation was a good idea and that 50% of teens believe that out of wedlock childbearing is now a worthwhile lifestyle.”
I'd like to know if you have them the number of divorces that are between Christian couples, that aside, what is so wrong with out of wedlock children? Have you some more magical statistical data that proves that they are at some form of disadvantage. The reason a lot more young people see cohabitation as preferable is that it avoids unnecessary legalities. Also living with someone prior to marriage will give you a good indicator of whether or not you are compatible together, something that I believe was lacking before leading to the high divorce rate.
They suggest that in 100 years Americans more than likely will marry 4 times and have extramarital affairs with NO public censure. This will be looked at as a conscious evolutionary process.
What exactly is wrong with this?
Does sexual promiscuity or any form of amorality leads to happiness? While it is true that self-gratification may lead to immediate pleasure, invariably it sacrifices the permanence of morals and health. Is Television a culprit to all this? How is it affecting society? To say it does not is plainly ignorant.
You are comparing sexual freedom to amorality and these things are not proportional, have you tried to lead a life of sexual promiscuity and discovered that yes it indeed does not lead to happiness, in fact an active sex life can overall benefit your health as regular endorphin release can help keep your body healthy and brain functioning well, leading to overall happiness. Morality is only sacrificed in the ancient definition of the church.
The pictures that appear in magazines today, the stuff on television show a lot more than they did years ago.
So, what is that doing to anyone, isolated tribes walk around naked and nobody is running around raping them, simply because they are free of the stigma of religious intolerance that in the modern world somehow and unfortunately lingers.
You can watch anything you want on television and the internet. Anything.
On the internet maybe, but it requires looking. TV is still quite heavily censored.
Pornography has gotten a lot worse.
Is this the voice of experience.
Just seeing a womans naked body today is not enough……..we have to see her getting raped, we have to see her screwing a football team, screwing a barnyard full of animals, tied up and tortured. It did not used to be like that. And anyone who wants and enjoys seeing pictures or video scenes of someone being abused is SICK IN THE HEAD.
You make it sound as if the entire world is now into Bukkake, Rape and Bestiality. This is far from the case. In a world where information flows freely it is only inevitable that the darker side of humanity will be shown, are you stating that these things did not exist until now? If you are you are wrong.
You watch enough of content like this....you listen to music with content like this and more than likely it will affect you...especially teenagers who are still vulnerable.
You know the same things have been said of every generation, it is not quantifiable and is blatant generalization.
but look at the music industry as well. Its pornography and violence set to music.....sick people in the music industry taking advantage of teenagers to make a buck.
Again blatant over generalization, there is plenty of music available with a good message, or none at all, just being instrumental.
Ever listened to real blues, or early rock, filthy, over sexed and often violent, it was maybe a bit more poetic (today's style is just more direct, but this will change again) but nevertheless spoke in angst as the then current generation of teens and young adults forging their own identity.
I wonder how many were affected by Cobains suicide?
How many more have been affected by Jesus' suicide, and in the same vain Gods suicide and filicide?
I wonder how many kids idolized Ozzy Osbourne? Look at him today. How about Marilyn Manson and morally repugnant bands like Slayer, Nine Inch Nails and Korn? The bulk of rap music has no artistic value at all and nearly every rap song has negative social values. It glorifies criminal behavior, it degrades sex and it especially demeans woman. Little girls want to be like Madonna, Christina A, Britany Spears and now...Gaga and Perry....who all have simulated sex acts while performing on stage in virtually nothing.
So what? Only the strictly religious make comments like these. What is wrong with a women that is considered a sex symbol being independent and expressing herself? I mean attacking heavy rock acts is cliche in the highest form, we already know that they do little or no damage and give otherwise outcast teens a group to belong to. Rap music has in your opinion no artistic value, to be honest I'd hate to see what you regard as good music. You seem to believe that because you are a Christian that you have some moral superiority over those that are not, did Jesus not teach to Judge not ye, least ye be judged yourselves.
The rest of your post is even more nit picking, I have no interest in repeating myself as you do.
Wow this whole argument has entirely missed the point if the debate. You just seem to be picking at things you don't agree with in your moral system.
Americans have been less likely to marry and more likely to divorce
I think the reason there are more divorces now a days is because it's not such a stigma to have one. Go back 50 years ago women and men stayed in abusive, sexless, loveless, sexist relationships. Humans don't just lie down and take it anymore. It's socially acceptable to stand up to something you don't agree with. I think a fair amount of people didn't divorce before because they would be humiliated and shunned by others. Fortunately it's not like that anymore.
3. Out of wedlock births up 461% in 40 years and 4. Out of wedlock births account for 32% of all births nationally-highest rate Washington DC at 64% and lowest rate Utah at 17%
What's wrong with having a baby out of wedlock?
Does sexual promiscuity or any form of amorality leads to happiness? While it is true that self-gratification may lead to immediate pleasure, invariably it sacrifices the permanence of morals and health.
If someone is careful and enjoys it why can't they just have lots of sex? Not everybody has the same morals as a Christian. Some people want to be porn stars, just let them be.
The pictures that appear in magazines today, the stuff on television show a lot more than they did years ago. You can watch anything you want on television and the internet.
I agree with this. However parents should really be controlling what their children are watching.
we have to see her getting raped, screwing a barnyard full of animals, tied up and tortured
Um, if you mean these literally it's illegal. It's illegal to commit, film and watch rape. It's illegal to commit, film and watch beastiality. I doubt many people do this.
especially teenagers who are still vulnerable
To be honest if a teenager wants to watch a woman getting raped you generally have to assume that they probably have something a little wrong with them mentally. And where are the parents?
.but look at the music industry as well. Its pornography and violence set to music.....sick people in the music industry taking advantage of teenagers to make a buck
I hardly think people are sick for producing music. It's an art form. If they want to sing about banging chicks let them. They have 'explicit content' labels for a reason.
I wonder how many were affected by Cobains suicide
What? It was upsetting for fans, yes. I doubt it triggered a mass suicide uprise. Who are you going to blame now Marilyn Manson, go on, do it.
I wonder how many kids idolized Ozzy Osbourne? Look at him today
What loads of money, lovely house, wonderful wife and a few kids? God, look what shit he got himself into it.
How about Marilyn Manson and morally repugnant bands like Slayer, Nine Inch Nails and Korn?
YES, you actually bought up Marilyn Manson, I hadn't even realised until I scrolled down! You're morals aren't typical to everyone, I don't find them morally repugnant, I don't like them, mostly because I think the music pants but that's just my opinion.
I was in a store the other day and they had thongs for little girls....TELL ME WHY LITTLE GIRLS NEED THONGS?
I do agree with you here. I hate when parents let their 8 year old girls prance around in 6 inch heels, full face of make-up and mini skirts. It's sexual exploitation of a child. But you can't really blame the music industry for this. If my daughter asked to wear a thong at 8 I'd tell her 'no way'. These parents let their children wear these sexually flaunting clothes.
And how many parents know what is going on....the lyrics of the songs their kids listen to, what they watch on television and at the movies?
Perhaps they should involve themselves more in their child's media interests if they are concerned. Not all parents are concerned that their children are listening to rock music, I wouldn't be at all. I'd commend her for having good taste if she picked up The Smiths.
Journal of the American Medical Association, published a survey in which 60% of college students claimed oral sex was not real sex.
Thanks catticus for disputing that arguement. I've grown accustomed to rolling my eyes and moving along when i see things like what churchmouse posted. Its just so overwhelming that you post counter arguments, debunk, and discredit people who preach their morals and beliefs only to see them continue or to see others take their place. Arrrgh its so frustrating, it should be illegal for religious institutions to lie to their patrons, that would sure clear up a lot of the indoctrination of our nations youth.
again, thank you for doing that so i didnt have to ;)~
I enjoy disputing church mouse because it's easy ;)
I don't have a problem with religion, I just can't stand it when they preach their morals to the rest of society. I dislike the 'everybody must side with the way of the Lord or they are immoral' attitude.
The majority of users here are Atheist and Agnostic so why use Christianity teachings as a source of credible information? She never speaks for herself (in my opinion, I think, I believe) it's always 'this is what I know and it is the truth!
Oh yes, disputing what I say.....right. You who thinks oral sex is NOT SEX. Oh you are so right about things. LOL
You do have a problem with religion, your one of those paranoid people...who are like vampires when they see a cross. And I live in the United States of America, I have the right to voice opinion, opposition to something I feel is right or wrong. I have the right to persuade. It is to bad that you are so closed minded that you do not believe in free speech. You are an intolerant person...one who posts here spouting your own opinion but want to silence others because you are so weak in yours.
You know I have no clue how old you are and I am sorry that I keep asking but I have a feeling your very young because your views are simply immature...like your statement oral sex is not sex. That statement says volumes about someones intelligence and it certainly IMO speaks to yours.
I debate abortion without religion...always have. Its those paranoid who hate believers bring it up. OUr worldviews are shaped by what we believe in however. Yours are shaped by your beliefs as are everyone elses here. That is why atheism is a religion. My is not the only worldview here. You would see that if you ever stepped out of the small box you are in.
Of course I believe that my faith is the truth. You believe your faith is the truth. Why can you operate under that fact and I can't. Why should the rules be different for you.
Are you here stating fact or is it all your opinion? In that case everything you said in the abortion debates...is a joke, because you said you stated them as facts.
Now I can see why you hate when someone brings up morals, you don't seem (from what I have read on here, your answers to posts in debates) to have any. As I said your a relativist...no right and wrong...everything goes.
Oh yes, disputing what I say.....right. You who thinks oral sex is NOT SEX
It isn't sex it's oral sex. If it was sex they'd call it sex not oral. Sex is penis in vagina. Not genitals to mouth.
You do have a problem with religion, your one of those paranoid people...who are like vampires when they see a cross
I don't have a problem with religion at all. My father in law is a reverend and my great grandmother is a Jehovah Witness. Why does it not bother me? Because it's their choice and they're happy. The main reason it doesn't bother me is because not once have they ever tried to tell me my opinion is wrong and I must blindly follow what they believe in. Because we respect each others views. You just can't wait for the next person to churn your insults and moral speeches on. You're not converting anyone here don't bother.
I have the right to voice opinion, opposition to something I feel is right or wrong. I have the right to persuade.
You do have a right, I never disputed that. Especially something you feel. However you don't do this, you just tell everyone that your opinion is right and everyone elses is wrong. You don't consider any view point apart from your own. Not once have I told you your opinion is definitely wrong. You do this constantly.
It is to bad that you are so closed minded that you do not believe in free speech
I'm closed minded? You're the person who can't even take into consideration the opinion of another human being should it dare differ from yours. I accept your opinion but I don't believe in it myself. You could never accept that this my opinion and just turn the other cheek. You just continue lying and insulting me. It's getting very tiresome now. I believe in free speech, speak all you want. But don't think for one minute that you know everything and there is nothing left to consider or learn.
You know I have no clue how old you are and I am sorry that I keep asking but I have a feeling your very young because your views are simply immature...
I don't answer this because it's states it clearly on my profile. I'm an adult. If you're to lazy to go and look at my age then that is your problem. There we go insulting my beliefs and views. Just because you disagree with my opinion doesn't make it wrong and it certainly doesn't make it immature.
like your statement oral sex is not sex
I'm pretty sure a massive amount of people are with me when I say sex is penis in vagina. And oral sex differs. Perhaps it's a U.S thing in which case I won't dispute you any further since you massively believe in it. But in the UK sex is intercourse, period.
OUr worldviews are shaped by what we believe in however. Yours are shaped by your beliefs
How do those two statements differ in any which way? Yours are shaped by your beliefs and mine are shaped by my beliefs. They're just worlds apart. It doesn't make either of us wrong.
That is why atheism is a religion
People believe in lots of things it doesn't make it a religion. Some people believe in fairies, it's not religious. Some people believe in ghosts, it's not a religion.
My is not the only worldview here. You would see that if you ever stepped out of the small box you are in.
I know it's not. Your view is joined by millions of Christians around the world, I've met and known many. I also know Buddhists, Muslims, Sikhs and Pagans. You can't tell me I'm meant to believe in everything a religious person tells me they believe in. If I have any connection to the moral teachings of a religion it's Buddism. However I do not follow the religion since there are parts I do not agree with. Christianity isn't the only religion in the world there are many to consider.
Of course I believe that my faith is the truth. You believe your faith is the truth. Why can you operate under that fact and I can't. Why should the rules be different for you.
And there you go. This is what make us completely different. You think your opinion is the definitive truth. I don't. I think my opinion could be right, maybe. I think yours could be right just as any other religion could be right. I admit what I believe in could be false. However I stand by it because that's what my gut instincts tell me is correct. A long with logical personal debate.
Are you here stating fact or is it all your opinion? In that case everything you said in the abortion debates...is a joke, because you said you stated them as facts.
Depends on what I'm discussing. It was mostly opinion. I only gave facts to back up statistics or when you asked for them. You asked when a fetus could feel pain so I posted a link to the facts. You asked for facts so don't complain when I give them to you.
Now I can see why you hate when someone brings up morals, you don't seem (from what I have read on here, your answers to posts in debates) to have any
I have many morals, you just think I don't because my morals differ from you. I'd never dream of telling you you don't have morals just because I disagree with the morals you have. I told you in the last dispute things I find immoral. So just re-read that if you are still questioning it.
As I said your a relativist...no right and wrong...everything goes
You have me so wrong. Not everything goes. I'll tell you what's wrong. Rape, incest, homophobia, sexism, racism, physical abuse, verbal abuse, victimizing, child abuse and neglect, animal abuse and neglect, poverty e.c.t So many things that I consider wrong. Don't assume you know the inner workings of me because you certainly don't!
It is sex and categorized as such by society. You even call it sex. Brushing your teeth is an oral activity...but do you do it to get off? LOL Don't answer that ok.
Well you do have a problem because you have several times made pot shots about it. There is nothing wrong with telling someone they are wrong. You have that right too. In fact you are judgemental, because you do it to me in every post. You tell me I am wrong. So? You don't have to blindly do anything so quit complaining. And I certainly am not trying to convince anyone or force them to believe what I do. You are so narrow minded it is unbelievable.
How do those two statements differ in any which way? Yours are shaped by your beliefs and mine are shaped by my beliefs. They're just worlds apart. It doesn't make either of us wrong.
:How do those two statements differ in any which way? Yours are shaped by your beliefs and mine are shaped by my beliefs. They're just worlds apart. It doesn't make either of us wrong."
I disagree. I believe there is truth and that we should seek it. If there is an accident down at the corner and there are five witnesses who the police interview...there might be five different accounts of what happened. But there is only one truth...the way it did happen. You are a moral relativist. I am not. So for me there is truth whether one wants to belive it or not. This truth might be hidden but its there. In some cultures rape is ok. In some genital mutilation and honor killings are acceptable. In china killing girl babies is acceptable. But are they? Hitler thought he was doing a service to mankind. I would bet you think he was wrong. What do you base that on? You base it on the truth THE WAY YOU SEE IT. On 9-11 Islamic radicals killed how many? As the towers were coming down, there were people all over the world cheering and thanking god for our demise and sadness. What is the truth in that situation? Is there truth to murder, child abuse. Is it right or wrong? I do not believe that truth is in the eye of the beholder. All religions can't be right, because they contradict one another. We fight about abortion....I believe its wrong, you believe its right. We cant agree and never will unless one changes and that wont be me. But the truth of abortion is that something is killed to solve the problem. That is the truth that for some is hidden away.
You said, "And there you go. This is what make us completely different. You think your opinion is the definitive truth. I don't. I think my opinion could be right, maybe. I think yours could be right just as any other religion could be right. I admit what I believe in could be false. However I stand by it because that's what my gut instincts tell me is correct. A long with logical personal debate.
You think and you fight on this debate board for issues and you take sides. This is what debate is all about. Yet you bash me for saying that my beliefs are the truth and by stating why. Maybe you have never felt passionately about anything I dont know. But I am educated, I read, I research and I weigh the evidence and I believe and have faith that Christ is who He said He was. I am not alone in thinking this as Christianity is the largest religion on earth. This is not a gut instinct for me, I believe and live by it.
Now how does that hurt you? How is that threatening, how does that bash your beliefs?
"You have me so wrong. Not everything goes. I'll tell you what's wrong. Rape, incest, homophobia, sexism, racism, physical abuse, verbal abuse, victimizing, child abuse and neglect, animal abuse and neglect, poverty e.c.t So many things that I consider wrong. Don't assume you know the inner workings of me because you certainly don't!"
You pick and choose making your morals up as you see fit. You said there can be more than one truth to something. You include child abuse on your list yet you dont include the dismemberment of a unborn child until its dead. Why?
How do you decide what is right and wrong? Did you know that if you state something is wrong......YOU IMPLY THAT THERE IS A RIGHT?
I know I've already been in that debate and said because my society in England don't classify sex and sexual acts in the same category I didn't know. I said 3 times I'd let it rest and you still persist. Why drag up an argument that was settled days ago?
Well you do have a problem because you have several times made pot shots about it. There is nothing wrong with telling someone they are wrong
I haven't made pot shots at all if I had you've never re-posted my arguments so where is the proof? Of course tell someone they are wrong if it is proven wrong by fact, but these debates we are having are purely opinionated and there is no right and wrong answer to be found. You just have to think that an opinion because it belongs to you must be the 100% correct. How can something that has no proof be correct?
You have that right too. In fact you are judgemental, because you do it to me in every post. You tell me I am wrong
I don't. I say I disagree and that may opinion differs. I never outright say you must be wrong (unless something you've said is factually proven wrong in which case I give link to prove so). The key word here being proof. You constantly tell me I am wrong and fail to provide evidence. You said I'd be a bad parent because I'd commend my daughters taste in music if she listened to rock. How do you know rock music is morally wrong? You don't because it's subjective.
And I certainly am not trying to convince anyone or force them to believe what I do
Sure. You told me I was cold, a humanist, mirrored Hitler, a murderer, champion killing, a joke, would be a terrible parent. All of this based on my opinion. Would you have called me those things if I agreed with you? You are trying to convince me that's the point of debating. Convincing your audience.
I disagree. I believe there is truth and that we should seek it
Yes there is a truth, a truth must exist but since there is no proof how do you know that what you believe is the truth?
What do you base that on? You base it on the truth THE WAY YOU SEE IT
But you base your opinions on the truth the way you see it? There are no double standards here.
I do not believe that truth is in the eye of the beholder. All religions can't be right, because they contradict one another
Why does Christianity have to be the right religion then? No religion has proof that it is the definitive truth. Christianity isn't superior or any more truthful than Hinduism, Islam, Buddhism. How do you know it isn't a non Christian religion that is actually the truth?
But the truth of abortion is that something is killed to solve the problem. That is the truth that for some is hidden away
That's not hidden at all. It is to solve a problem, a problem that would be greater if the fetus was allowed to survive. You know my abortion view I'm not going back into this again.
You think and you fight on this debate board for issues and you take sides. This is what debate is all about. Yet you bash me for saying that my beliefs are the truth and by stating why.
You're right I do. Because you have no proof. In order to actually win a debate you need proof. Otherwise it's purely subjective. You cannot say that your morals are the truth and that non-christian morals are wrong because there is no proof. I can admit that why can't you? You cannot claim personal views as the absolute truth when there is little support to that claim.
Maybe you have never felt passionately about anything I dont know
I feel passionately about lots of things. That's why I like subjective debates because often there is no right or wrong answer. Just a chance to voice a view and discuss other peoples beliefs. That's what happened originally in the abortion debate. Look at your first ever response to me you completely lashed out at me because of my opinion.
But I am educated, I read, I research and I weigh the evidence and I believe and have faith that Christ is who He said He was
So am I, it doesn't mean our opinions can't differ. It's fine that you believe in Christ but you have to accept that you cannot prove it is 100% correct.
Now how does that hurt you? How is that threatening, how does that bash your beliefs?
It does not. I seriously don't have a problem with you being religious. What does bother me is that you call me a bad person and name call me just because my views don't mirror your religion. How can you tell me I am a bad person and my views are terrible based on a religion that has no proof that it's teachings are the definitive truth?
You pick and choose making your morals up as you see fit.
But that's exactly what you do! You picked and chose the morals of Christianity and the Bible. How is it any different to me just because I chose morals of a civilized, logical and loving society that so happens to be non-religious?
You include child abuse on your list yet you dont include the dismemberment of a unborn child until its dead. Why?
Look I'm not posting the same evidence over and over again. Dismemberment of a fetus rarely happens especially in developed countries. I've been present at abortions because of my nursing access course and that is not how most abortions take place, I can assure you it is much more humane than that. Besides I don't consider a fetus a child.
How do you decide what is right and wrong? Did you know that if you state something is wrong......YOU IMPLY THAT THERE IS A RIGHT?
I don't I decide what is right and wrong for me personally. I state that I believe something is wrong. I don't say that it is the opinion for everyone or that it is 100% correct. You believe that your morals are not subjective and they must be completely correct. Could you ever so much as consider that perhaps what you believe could be wrong or is this just a lost cause?
On factual and ideological grounds I have many problems with religion. I don't have a personal problem with religion, if that is what you mean.
And I live in the United States of America, I have the right to voice opinion
Why is it that people feel the desire to state that they have a right to their opinion, whenever the validity of the opinion has come into question? Having right to an opinion does not mean the opinion is correct. It may be criticized just the same.
It is to bad that you are so closed minded that you do not believe in free speech.
Expressing views contrary to yours is in no way an infringement of freedom of speech.
Umm... why is that the only point you seem able to get across in this argument .__.
You DO realize that Sex is defined differently be different people right? There is not real definition of it since everyone really does have different ideas of morality when it comes to sex.
They are entitled to think that it isn't and to them it wont be. But you trying to attack them for their OPINION is morally wrong by Christian standards you know?
Are you not to show love to your neighbor? They why are you attacking him and jumping down his through for an OPINION. You aren't going to get anybody to think more of you with bad behavior, and God doesn't like his children acting heinous to other people. Do you really think that Jesus would be doing what you're doing? Jumping down somebody's throat for SPEAKING?
No, he wouldn't. He would be ashamed for your hypocrisy.
It's fine that you disagree, but your turning the disagreement into nothing more than an attack.
Instead of dragging this out simply say what you NEED to say and stop trying to mock people for revenge on arguing with your views in the first place.
If vengeance is God's then you shouldn't even have to resort to this pettiness.
No, I do think oral sex is sex. And I’m a very good father for the record, not that that or your assumption that I am a bad father or an example of "why this country is in such a mess" matters in this discussion anyway.
By the way, I contend your notion that I’m an example of why this country is in a mess, you know absolutely nothing about me for one. Moreover, I do not attempt to indoctrinate others into my beliefs and berate them with insulting remarks.
Consider this churchmouse, all you know and preach is a result of being spoon fed a lot of nonsense, most of which is not factual or logical and you could free yourself of this mental blockage by becoming a critical thinker and “Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.” – 1Thess 5:21
Churchmouse, I used to be a very devout Christian, I truly believed. But many things didn’t set right with me about the religion, like why if we have an all loving and merciful god and are told to love our enemies, does this god punish people with ETERNAL torture and torment forever and ever until the end of time?? Then I did research and found that the very concept of “hell” or anything like it as a Christian believes is un-scriptural, unsupported, dogma that was created by man (pope, priest, preacher) and is not a real place.
That is but one example my friend, and after you do research and find out more and more inaccuracies, misinterpretations, unsupported doctrines with the religion then you too will denounce the religion you were indoctrinated into at such a naïve and innocent period in your life. At least I hope so because it is not I, but people like YOU who are the reason this country is in a mess. People who do not consider 1Thess 5:21 and who do not heed Jesus’ many mentioning of “false prophets.” People who willingly accept whatever BS they are told because that person is held in high regard, instead of challenging it if it doesn’t make sense, seem reasonable, or even logical or ethical.
Tell me what good religion has done for humanity and I will counter it with something worse that it did. And for the record I do believe in god, but I will not attribute horrible human qualities to god, I refuse!
Oral sex is sex, it is sexual activity, you are in the minority.
If you do not consider oral sex sex, then yes, I question what else you define.
This country is in a mess because they don't believe morals matter. They are moral relativists.....no one truth, no right or wrong.
You think I am the only one here who insults people? LMAO
Why don't you open your eyes....I have been called all sorts of names on here. You say nothing to them, because you side with their worldview.
You say I can't judge you because I don't know you. DO YOU KNOW ME? Again...LMAO
You liberals kill me. You are the ones who say conservatives and believers are not open minded and tolerant and then you turn around and do the same thing you accuse us of doing. You scream the loudest. You tell me I was spoon fed........now how do you know that? You know about me and thats ok, I make statements about you and have no right.
Your hilarious.
As I said before this is a debate site....people sharing worldviews, opinion, facts and information they find. Why can't you handle that?
Whether or not you were a devout Christian or not...who knows. You can say anything you want on here...and no one would know. Anyone can have head knowledge of a faith, but heart knowledge and the Holy Spirit convicting you ....two totally different things. I highly doubt that you were devout...that your heart was in it. You never did what God commanded.....not really.
Now I could go on and post verse after verse about this...but what good would it do? You turned your back and now are relying on your own interpretations of what is right and wrong. And if you allow yourself to do this.....and the truth is how one interprets things.....then you must allow others the same right. Therefore slavery, rape, pedophelia, child porn, stealing......can all be seen as ok by some. What right would you have to tell them to follow what YOU BELEIVE.
I will say this......No one has ever seen God and most people do not need to in order to believe. And obviously for you to believe you need to see. That is not what is scriptural however. You left me with a verse, I will shoot one back at ya.
“Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed”
You never had the faith needed...not really. No one will know everything all the answers. It takes faith and love in God to say....it does not matter. You obviously could not do this. So you will live by your own rules. The Christian faith is way beyond what we can ever answer or explain on earth. To define, to answer all the whys.....is not possible. That is why you never got it which is sad.
Believers will be blessed by the faith they had...and the love they had for God in their heart. I beleive by faith in the things I cant see. The things I cant understand don't matter, people that condemn my beliefs in Christ don't matter. Christ said in John 15:18, ""If the world hates you, you know that it has hated Me before it hated you."
Now I came to Christ and was saved on 9-11-01. I was 46 years old. I was spoon fed and for you to even say that is pretty bold on your past. To assume that all Christians have been Christian since birth....???? That shows me question as to how much you really know about Christ.
See this statement you said reveals to me that you never had it....."Tell me what good religion has done for humanity and I will counter it with something worse that it did."
My faith has NOTHING TO DO WITH RELIGION. It has all to do with the relationship I have with Christ and no one else. Christianity is about this......and nothing else for those who actually have the relationship. If you had had it, you would have known it.
"And for the record I do believe in god, but I will not attribute horrible human qualities to god, I refuse!"
Now you say you believe in a god, you cant possible see or hear.....that you have no proof of. LMAO Its the god called......"the self"
“Oral sex is sex, it is sexual activity, you are in the minority.
If you do not consider oral sex sex, then yes, I question what else you define.” – churchmouse
You asked me “I suppose you also don’t think oral sex is sex?” I answered “No (comma) I do think oral sex is sex.”
Also it would be illogical to question what else I define based on one particular view, especially because I have no predetermined outline such as that granted by a religion. Instead I base my views and opinions a great deal on reason.
”This country is in a mess because they don't believe morals matter. They are moral relativists.....no one truth, no right or wrong.”
This country is a mess mainly because of the corrupt government but the people’s blame cannot be ignored. As the OP suggests in part due to TV, the majority of this country’s population are dumb, uninformed, media driven, overweight, undereducated, zombies. And the government (and religion for that matter) wouldn’t want it any other way.
I don’t see the majority of the people in this country as being moral relativists; I see them living in a box for the most part. They sometimes follow a trend, which in most cases are to some degree against the status quo.
Besides, would you deny that ethics are different in other people or cultures as is suggested by moral relativism? Ethics are completely and entirely subjective, there’s no way around it. Please, name one instance of right and wrong that is not subjective.
“You think I am the only one here who insults people? LMAO
Why don't you open your eyes....I have been called all sorts of names on here. You say nothing to them, because you side with their worldview.
Did I say that? Than no. And I say nothing to them because I honestly don’t follow the drama on this site, especially when it deals with insulting people. Personal attacks and insults have no place in debate.
”You say I can't judge you because I don't know you. DO YOU KNOW ME? Again...LMAO”
That’s not what I said, what I said was that “I contend your notion that I’m an example of why this country is in a mess.” But no, I don’t know you… lmao? I’m concerned that you find this amusing, are you in denial with your inability to pose an effective argument?
”You liberals kill me. You are the ones who say conservatives and believers are not open minded and tolerant and then you turn around and do the same thing you accuse us of doing. You scream the loudest.”
Not a liberal, so this wouldn’t apply to me regardless of how inaccurate of a description it is of liberals. I’m curious as to why you assume I am a liberal when I haven’t said one thing in support of a liberal view. Let me guess, you’re of the majority of the population who inaccurately mingle “conservative” with “believers,” and equate “non-Christian” with “liberal.” I’ll even be nice and point out that this is a catch, re-read what you posted just above.
” You tell me I was spoon fed........now how do you know that?”
An observation based on the things you post regarding your faith. You say the things that religious institutions spoon feed their patrons. If you were to research and learn about you’re religion’s historical theology predating the 3rd century, you would see that what you have been told is wrong.
”You know about me and thats ok, I make statements about you and have no right.”
I don’t know about you, I don’t know you. What I do is make observations based on what you provide me. You making statements about me is your prerogative, but it would behoove you to be accurate and not assume too much.
”Your hilarious.”
Thanks. I wasn’t even trying.
”As I said before this is a debate site....people sharing worldviews, opinion, facts and information they find. Why can't you handle that?”
Why do you assume I can’t? And it’s not so much about sharing worldviews, opinions, facts and information like a lot of people think. It’s about posing an argument and applying critical thought to either weaken or strengthen another’s argument, it’s a debate site not Facebook.
”Whether or not you were a devout Christian or not...who knows.”
Myself and God. As well as my family members but I think God and myself are enough for it to be considered a fact in my eyes. That you (who has no knowledge of me) cast doubt is irrelevant, it is a fact.
”You can say anything you want on here...and no one would know.”
This is true, but as a rule in debate, for the sake of debate, one should assume that what is being said is true and argue their position not their credibility. Only when a person’s credibility is the subject of debate should one question it. And only when a person’s evidence in support of their claim is proven false should their credibility become the subject of debate.
”Anyone can have head knowledge of a faith, but heart knowledge and the Holy Spirit convicting you ....two totally different things. I highly doubt that you were devout...that your heart was in it. You never did what God commanded.....not really.”
I have head knowledge and I still retain the “heart knowledge” and conviction of when I was a devout Christian. I agree that they are totally different. Again, your doubt is irrelevant, believe me or not but the fact is is that you’re referring to a man who went to church every day it was opened and even drove by to see if there were people there so I could engage in some fellowship. I would carry my study bible with me everywhere, AND my pocket sized New Testament in my back pocket opposite my wallet. I would pray (and still do by the way) any time I thought about it, even while on the road I would often pull over because God moved me to pray “I don’t know why Lord, but You commanded me and I obeyed. I pray Lord that, in your graceful and loving nature, You move in this world and make right what needs correction. I know there is power in these words Lord because there is power in prayer. Let your will be done on Earth as it is in your kingdom oh Lord. I ask these things in your name, amen.”
My heart was totally in it churchmouse, the only difference now is that I am not Christian; my heart is still in it for God. I still feel conviction which is why I abstain from sex and drugs (to include caffeine). I try not to do bad things like curse and judge but, as I’m sure you know, we all fall short of His glory and when I do (fall short), I feel conviction for it. That you don’t believe me, or trust that im being honest is irrelevant to the fact.
”Now I could go on and post verse after verse about this...but what good would it do?”
Not as much good as would be won if you were to see if the verses you would post are actually inspired by God or altered words of man.
”You turned your back”
On religion.
”and now are relying on your own interpretations of what is right and wrong.”
And? Do you even know what they are? If they are similar to your own? That they are my own and not that of a religion's doesn't mean that they cannot be similar, doesn't mean they are any less right or wrong.
” And if you allow yourself to do this.....and the truth is how one interprets things.....then you must allow others the same right. Therefore slavery, rape, pedophelia, child porn, stealing......can all be seen as ok by some. What right would you have to tell them to follow what YOU BELEIVE.” - churchmouse
I would just like other people who might read this to note that the above quote is churchmouse, not I.
I am not disputing you on this churchmouse, I totally agree, but isn’t that what most if not all Christians do? Tell or expect people to follow their version of what is right and wrong?
”I will say this......No one has ever seen God and most people do not need to in order to believe.”
According to the Bible Moses, Jacob and Job saw God and I think some others. Also if you believe Jesus is God than he was seen by many people. But I agree, people do not need to see God in order to believe.
”And obviously for you to believe you need to see. That is not what is scriptural however. You left me with a verse, I will shoot one back at ya.
“Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed””
Did I say that I need to see God in order to believe? And the verse you quoted has nothing to do with the one I quoted previously; they’re not even on the same topic so “shoot” all you want, you have terrible aim. If you would have read my entire post you would have noticed that I do believe in God as I mentioned at the very end. I do not need to see God himself to know that God is there, I have other senses, I can feel His presence within me and around me. Besides I can and do see God, I see God in nature, in my daughter, in witnessing the selfless compassion in others etc. I’m sorry for those who can’t see Him.
”You never had the faith needed...not really.”
You’re right I guess I didn’t have the faith to believe what my religious leaders told me or even the bible for that matter after I discovered what I did about Christian theology (keep in mind that I whole heartedly believed and had faith before I researched it, I was naïve).
”No one will know everything all the answers. It takes faith and love in God to say....it does not matter.”
And it takes a brain and love for humankind to say… it does matter, and then strive to do their part for their generation in furthering the knowledge and progress of the species. Where would we be if people didn’t learn and grow? Our ancestors who were primarily taught through their religion believed that the Earth was flat and the center of the universe. But thank God that the answers are out there and that not everyone relies on faith or relies on being spoon fed what to believe.
”You obviously could not do this. So you will live by your own rules.”
And what are my own rules? You denounce them before even realizing that they could be similar to your own.
”The Christian faith is way beyond what we can ever answer or explain on earth. To define, to answer all the whys.....is not possible. That is why you never got it, which is sad.”
God maybe, but not the Christian faith. The Christian faith is easily explained, it’s an offshoot of Judaism, the faith of the Christians, but more importantly it’s a hoax, an outdated ineffective religion, a way of life governed by a collection of misinterpreted and misunderstood teachings and laws made by masses of illiterate, primitive people from a large variety of cultures over the course of about 15 to 20 centuries. A sham perpetrated by those in power to keep their subjects in check. A blight on this planet.
”Believers will be blessed by the faith they had...and the love they had for God in their heart. I beleive by faith in the things I cant see. The things I cant understand don't matter, people that condemn my beliefs in Christ don't matter. Christ said in John 15:18, ""If the world hates you, you know that it has hated Me before it hated you."”
This brings me great joy; I do indeed feel blessed, for I too believe in and love God. God moves me to learn about the things I don’t understand so I guess you could say they matter to me, He shows me the truth, He is my guiding light.
”Now I came to Christ and was saved on 9-11-01. I was 46 years old. I was spoon fed and for you to even say that is pretty bold on your past. To assume that all Christians have been Christian since birth....???? That shows me question as to how much you really know about Christ.”
And this shows how much you really know about what I said. I didn’t assume that you were Christian at birth, nor any Christian for that matter. What I said was “you too will denounce the religion you were indoctrinated into at such a naïve and innocent period in your life.” Where do you see anything about age in there? Just because you were 46 when you were saved doesn’t mean you weren’t also naïve and innocent. Naïve and innocent doesn’t mean “baby,” they are just more often than not considered so because of their lack of experience and lack of understanding of the world.
”See this statement you said reveals to me that you never had it....."Tell me what good religion has done for humanity and I will counter it with something worse that it did."
My faith has NOTHING TO DO WITH RELIGION. It has all to do with the relationship I have with Christ and no one else. Christianity is about this......and nothing else for those who actually have the relationship. If you had had it, you would have known it.” - churchmouse
I would like other people who might read this to remember that it is churchmouse who I am debating with. Churchmouse who says their faith has nothing to do with religion.
Churchmouse, do you go to church? If so, what faith is taught within those church walls? Is it Christianity? Is Christianity a religion? What do you mean by “the Christian faith” when you say “The Christian faith is way beyond what we can ever answer or explain on earth.”
Google “define faith” and the first result will yield four results, the third of which being “A system of religious belief. (i.e.the Christian faith)”
If your faith has NOTHING TO DO WITH RELIGION. Than suppose people in power attempted to abolish all religions, would that affect you?
If you are not a churchgoer, if you do not claim Christianity as your faith, than my mistake.
"And for the record I do believe in god, but I will not attribute horrible human qualities to god, I refuse!" - Coldfire
“Now you say you believe in a god, you cant possible see or hear.....that you have no proof of. LMAO Its the god called......"the self"” – churchmouse
I didn’t say that I believe in a god, I said I believe in God. And what do you mean by “you cant possible see or hear… that you have no proof of.”
I also don’t know what you mean when you say “It’s the god called…… “the self”” and I’m sure this is where you’ll say that that is proof I don’t believe or something to that effect, but the truth is that your wording is pretty vague and your grammar is poor, if you would elaborate it might help me to know what your hinting at.
1) I actually think it's part that as well as how people don't really respect the idea of making a commitment. There ARE some exceptions of course but in marriages, people wont fight for it; if they go through ANY type of season of trouble they bail out, OR they have the grass is greener mentality, and see that becasue their marriage isn't as glamorous as they though they bail out again to find something better.
2) The problem of out of wedlock children is how the Mother would have a much harder time raising the child by itself. Especially if she was a teen. At least when you have a father who is (supposed to be as marriage doesn't mean this very much anymore) obligated to stay no matter what, it's easier for the mother to take care of the child. There is also how when out of wedlock you have problems like not being able to support a baby, again especially when it's a teen mom.
It's just not a very stable position for a family.
3) It only becomes a problem, I think, when people start dropping baby's everywhere when they KNOW they aren't ready for a child. The problem with being 'careful' is that it isn't 100%. If you know you can't handle a kid, then really you shouldn't be giving yourself the risk at all right?
4) Agreed. and ewww on the next one,
5) The parents are probably working becasue they had the teen when they were too young to handle them without an extra job.
That or they're just in the other room, unaware of what's going on behind their backs.
6) Meh. I partly agree with this: I only think the producers should have QUALITY music. It's insulting to the original musicians in the last centuries... as well as my human intelligence -__-
7) Not commenting on the hero worship of celebrities. I already thing celebrities shouldn't be making as much money: that money should be going to our TEACHERS, POLICE, and MILITARY OFFICERS. People who actually GIVE BACK. Not some stupid perverted idiot who's just going to waste it on crap.
8) Umm... ewww but this >__<
They just letting their children get ready to be hookers ,__,
9) Parents really should be more interested in teaching their children about FINDING the quality stuff. Or just teaching them basic life skills... like writing a check?
10) Meh. Everyone has a different idea of what sex is. I think that as long as you can get an STI then it's sex. I guess becasue of the idea that in sex you're making yourself vulnerable, so you need to be careful of what sexual activities you're doing. Therefore, by my definition Oral is sex. You can get an STD from it.
I only really want to argue your out of wedlock opinion because I think it's stereotyping and invalid.
The problem of out of wedlock children is how the Mother would have a much harder time raising the child by itself
Being unmarried doesn't make you single or not in a stable relationship. Some people don't like the idea of marriage. I know people who have been together for 12 years but don't feel the need to justify the relationship and get married. You pretty much just described me, pregnant at 19. Except I'm engaged, my baby is 8 months old, we have a house, stable jobs (I'm actually doing a midwifery degree). How is that not stable? Why do I need to subject myself to marriage if I don't want to? Firstly it's really expensive. Secondly I don't need to prove our relationship to anyone else, I'll marry when I want to, not because I have a child. It's no easier to take care of a child in marriage, nor does it make anyone a better parent.
There is also how when out of wedlock you have problems like not being able to support a baby, again especially when it's a teen mom.
It's just not a very stable position for a family
Having a child out of wedlock does not make you poor or a teenager. You can be a married poor teenager. People have long committed relationships out of wedlock. Being unmarried does not make the family unit unstable nor the relationship. Tell the married man who barely see's his children because he's fucking my next door neighbor that he has a more stable family then me because my child is born out of wedlock.
The problem with being 'careful' is that it isn't 100%. If you know you can't handle a kid, then really you shouldn't be giving yourself the risk at all right?
Going outside and not getting hit by a bus is not 100% are you going to refrain from leaving the house? If you can't handle being a hit by a bus don't go out?
It's insulting to the original musicians in the last centuries... as well as my human intelligence
But you just insulted someones intelligence by saying the music they listen to is a negative reflection on their intelligence.
Parents really should be more interested in teaching their children about FINDING the quality stuff.
Quality is subjective. People have very different tastes in media. What I consider good my daughter may consider out dated and awful.
Meh; of course there are exceptions, and of course the view is not complete. I realize that it's a multifactorial situation.
1) I should have added that the IF you are single. IF you are single period,then it would be harder for the mother. It's not at all uncommon for a couple to break up after having a child; I was simply commenting on this occurrence more than I was on the other occurrence.
2) I didn't say that you HAD to be a teenager or poor to have a child out of wedlock; I was referring to IF YOU ARE.
3) The differences are however, that you sorta NEED to go outside; sex isn't a necessity. You CAN get hurt anywhere, and there are risks for everything, yes. However it's different being unable to avoid risk and actually running headlong into it.
The analogy for having sex if you aren't prepared for it is closer to going outside and running into a busy highway and not expecting to be hit because you're wearing a padded suit. <__<
4) o__o I didn't say those listening to it have a lack of intelligence. People have preferences in what they like to listen to. The people WRITING the lyrics that show a lack of intelligence however have another story. XD If ignorance/stupidity is the only/major thing to come out of somebody's brain it's an indication of their intelligence.
I think I also mean in quality something more along the lines of wholesome sorry. For example: music that condones violence, illegal drugs, and lack of responsibility for actions (Blame it). Those would be things that a parent should teach their children about avoiding <__<
How old are you seriously? You say oral sex is NOT SEX? lmao So if your married and the lady down the street was having oral sex with your husband.......you wouldn't mind? LMAO You are a trip. LMAO
I can barely respond to you, your viewpoint is so bizarre. I do pick at things that I find immoral.....and you do the opposite...the only thing....you dont mind anything immoral. Which I find sad. Gosh I hope you don't have children...I can only imagine.
The reason their are more divorces is that people don't take marriage seriously anymore. This is no longer a Christian nation and the reason all this is happening is because of that. Morals and values and goodness and class have all been tossed out the window. We now have secular humanists leading the way...and they celebrate what is deviant. Everything goes because they are moral relativists. No right or wrong...if it feels good do it.......even if it breaks up a marriage and destroys families and hurts children. Me me me me......thats all that matters to them.
Children out of wedlock......does not surprise me you would say this...
Would you care if your daugher were a porn star? And you would encourage her of course, right? Its good money and hey ya get to screw a lot of guys.
And you said parents should be controlling what they watch on television? Why on earth would you say this? Aren't you for free speech and teaching sex education in nursery school? You the open ones with no boundaries...who thinks everything on television is great and healthy? Yea right...
You think its illegal to watch bestiality? Its on the internet..dont think its hard to find.
And what is wrong with bestiality in your book? Are you closed minded or something? LOL
I still can't get over you thinking that oral sex is not sex....
I mean really......you wouldnt care that your kids did this on the playground eh?
So if your married and the lady down the street was having oral sex with your husband.......you wouldn't mind? LMAO You are a trip. LMAO
I'd be just as upset if my wife was kissing the bloke down the street or maybe rimming his ass, but I'd not call either of these things sex.
Gosh I hope you don't have children...I can only imagine.
This is pretty harsh and a personal attack, who are you to judge this person's ability as a parent, shame on you. To be honest it is this sort of snobby remark that makes so many Christians detestable.
The reason their are more divorces is that people don't take marriage seriously anymore.
You know this how? I take my marriage quite seriously.
This is no longer a Christian nation and the reason all this is happening is because of that.
Prayerfails handles this quite well.
We now have secular humanists leading the way.
This is far from the truth.
and they celebrate what is deviant.
Another broad generalization, think of what is considered the most deviant act in the world, molesting children right? Christians did that in droves. Genocide as well? Christians as well Torture... hmmm Christians did that too, what about rape. Consult your Bible they like that too.
Everything goes because they are moral relativists. No right or wrong...if it feels good do it.......even if it breaks up a marriage and destroys families and hurts children.
Of course there is right and wrong, why do Buddhists lead such peaceful lives, how can a tribe isolated from the world that does not know of God live in perfect harmony with nature and their own people Christianity is profane, injurious and corrupt. Your world view is quite clouded, probably by propaganda I'd advise reading a few books, getting a broader view of the available info and try to exercise a degree of the critical thinking possessed by those you wish to label and condemn.
Children out of wedlock......does not surprise me you would say this...
My first child was born out of wedlock, and guess what he is a really good boy, intelligent, kind, loving, and at five is learning to think and question that which he is told, and he also doesn't pray or live in fear of eternal pain. Have you got any children? I'd hazard a guess at no.
You think its illegal to watch bestiality? Its on the internet..dont think its hard to find.
It is illegal in some places, not all, bit of a bummer that, but these are laws that have been in place for quite a long time. Everything you wish to view is online, but I'll guarantee it's not that popular in the grand scheme of things.
I still can't get over you thinking that oral sex is not sex....
I mean really......you wouldnt care that your kids did this on the playground eh?
There is a difference between sex and a sexual act, and why bring children in, that is just sick.
WEll this certainly shows the difference between worldviews doesn't it?
What do you call oral sex then if its not sex at all......then what do you tell your kids it is?
There is nothing wrong or cruel in saying I hope that someones morals that I find destestable does not have children. I said it truthfully.
You said, "Of course there is right and wrong, why do Buddhists lead such peaceful lives, how can a tribe isolated from the world that does not know of God live in perfect harmony with nature and their own people Christianity is profane, injurious and corrupt. Your world view is quite clouded, probably by propaganda I'd advise reading a few books, getting a broader view of the available info and try to exercise a degree of the critical thinking possessed by those you wish to label and condemn."
Buddah took off and left his wife and child in search of something for HIMSELF. Do tell me how this is honorable and right? Is that enlightenment?
I am sure his wife did not think so...or maybe he brainwashed her? I would call it selfishness.....and more.
I think its so ironic that you would believe everything about Buddah...and question everything about Christ? How much earlier did that information have to be gathered? So buddistm/ hindu text have more accountability than the Torah? Bible? He lived some 500 some years before Christ....and he is believable...yea right.
In fact no one wrote about him until hundreds of years later...so how do you know the information is reliable? Couldn't someone have made all that up?
I am attacked here for believing in Christ believing in one afterlife. They say I have no proof......yet........its ok to believe Buddah who said it takes multiple lifetimes to reach nirvana. LOL
Why do you believe someone you have no way of knowing? LOL
Buddha says suffering is the result of selfish desires....I believe him because that is what HE DID WHEN HE TOOK OFF AND LEFT HIS WIFE AND NEWBORN SON.
He really practiced what he preached didn't he? So dont tell me this Buddhism is the cats meow.
You said, "My first child was born out of wedlock, and guess what he is a really good boy, intelligent, kind, loving, and at five is learning to think and question that which he is told, and he also doesn't pray or live in fear of eternal pain. Have you got any children? I'd hazard a guess at no."
Yes I have two grown children in their late twenties. I am a grandmother as well. I believe all children are gifts from God. But I believe it is ideal for children to have both parents. Sure children can survive with one, things happen, but it takes two to make a child I beleive for a reason. As a Christian I believe in commitment and the family the way Christ says it should be.
As for your definition for sex.......I simply disagree and if you do a simple search of sex acts......oral is listed as one.
There is nothing wrong or cruel in saying I hope that someones morals that I find destestable does not have children. I said it truthfully.
There is when this is a debate site and is about logical discourse and not 4chan or whatever where they just hurl abuse at each other, making it personal means she got to you.
Buddah took off and left his wife and child in search of something for HIMSELF. Do tell me how this is honorable and right? Is that enlightenment?
First of all I care not for Buddha, but why are Buddhists so peaceful and Judeo-Christians so belligerent. God killed every living thing on this planet, except a chosen few, tell me where the honor is in that, God toyed with his most devoted subjects to prove their devotion, he commanded armies to slaughter.
God created a world where little children starve do death, where women are subjugated, where child molesters roam the land. Where is the Honor in that?
I think its so ironic that you would believe everything about Buddah...and question everything about Christ?
I never stated this, so the Irony is lost. I'm an Atheist, but I've far more respect for a religion that conducts itself with peace and love.
In fact no one wrote about him until hundreds of years later...
The same is true of Jesus.
I am attacked here for believing in Christ believing in one afterlife. They say I have no proof......yet........its ok to believe Buddah who said it takes multiple lifetimes to reach nirvana. LOL
You weren't attacked for believing in Christ, I have no problem with anyone believing anything. You were disputed for being sanctimonious and vile.
Yes I have two grown children in their late twenties. I am a grandmother as well. I believe all children are gifts from God. But I believe it is ideal for children to have both parents. Sure children can survive with one, things happen, but it takes two to make a child I beleive for a reason. As a Christian I believe in commitment and the family the way Christ says it should be.
A child born out of wedlock does not necessarily have only one parent, that is a different thing.
As for your definition for sex.......I simply disagree and if you do a simple search of sex acts......oral is listed as one.
OK, Oral sex is actually called fellatio for sucking on a penis, or cunnilingus for licking and kissing the vagina, these are their actual names, colloquially brought under a banner of sexual acts all of which with the exception of vaginal penetration are not "sex" which is short for sexual intercourse, the act which is supposed to bring about sexual reproduction, the others are brought under the sex umbrella because they are stimulation of the sex organs. Would you consider rimming sex? What about a hand job.
You should probably as a devout Christian not know the difference anyway as you are not allowed to waste the seed
God created a world and stepped back. If there is evil in this world it is planned and carried out by the people themselves. He created a world where you have free will. If you hurt someone, you did it and no one else did. To blame God is a cop out. And just because someone is quiet does not mean they are not evil and do not hurt people. I am sure Buddah when he left....went in the middle of the night, quietly. But does that mean his actions did not hurt someone, in this case his family. He left a newborn son and wife to tote the load while he was off seeking something for himself.
You said, "You weren't attacked for believing in Christ, I have no problem with anyone believing anything. You were disputed for being sanctimonious and vile.'
I am attacked for my religious beliefs, by being called names. In fact you in your post just attacked my beliefs by cutting them down, demeaning them. What? its ok if you judge, but when I do it, its vile? Post where I said something vile.
If you deny oral sex is sex...fine, I question how you think and classify things. I would consider anything done for the purpose to get off in this manner sex. Kissing is a sexual activity....feeling, fondling, done with the mouth, the toes, the ears, the elbows.....the anus, the vagina, you name it. It is done for sexual pleasure...and to bring people sometimes to orgasm.
Now your last comment was a slam and you know it. Your are cunning and just word it nicely. But you judge and you make pot shots like most everyone else to get your point across.
Christians do enjoy sex, we are just taught that sex should be between a husband and wife who have committing themselves to one another in marriage. We believe that sleeping with hundreds of different sexual partners in a lifetime is wrong. Sex outside marriage is sin. How does that viewpoint hurt anyone? And how might this help?
God created a world and stepped back. If there is evil in this world it is planned and carried out by the people themselves. He created a world where you have free will.
As omniscience precludes free will this is incompatible with God.
I am sure Buddah when he left....went in the middle of the night, quietly. But does that mean his actions did not hurt someone, in this case his family. He left a newborn son and wife to tote the load while he was off seeking something for himself.~
Again with Buddha, leave him out, it has no bearing.
I am attacked for my religious beliefs, by being called names. In fact you in your post just attacked my beliefs by cutting them down, demeaning them. What? its ok if you judge, but when I do it, its vile? Post where I said something vile.
Any name calling, that I've done was not based on your religious beliefs, I already explained to you, that it was your comment on another's fitness as a parent that makes you vile and sanctimonious, your desire to take away the rights of Homosexuals, Polygamists, and mothers in desperation based purely on religious views is sanctimonious too, why don't you practice your religion and live within it's rules and leave others alone.
I no longer wish to debate the status of sexual acts.
Now your last comment was a slam and you know it. Your are cunning and just word it nicely. But you judge and you make pot shots like most everyone else to get your point across.
It is not a slam, it was designed to show you that for all the rules you so vehemently and stridently denounce there are others that you seem to not care about breaking.
Christians do enjoy sex, we are just taught that sex should be between a husband and wife who have committing themselves to one another in marriage.
Honestly, what use is this information? I'd be quite slow not to know that A Christians enjoy sex and B that Christians believe in the sanctity of marriage and intact virginity on entering said.
Sex outside marriage is sin. How does that viewpoint hurt anyone?
Well it can bring people into relationships they can't leave, living with people that are sexually incompatible. This would definitely lead to intimacy issues, for both parents and the children involved.
You aren't EVEN being attacked for believing in Christ. You're being attacked for attacking others instead of show the love and kindness that you SHOULD be showing other people if you really are one of God's disciples. Stop representing Christians are hateful and bigoted jerks. I'm really tired of being put in the same boat as Christian jerks who can't accept other people.
You want to know the real reason atheists attack us? Because we've been attacking them for hundreds of years. 9__9. Buddhists are very peaceful people unlike the christian majority. That's why.
What the hell does this have to do with the debate title?
"We now have secular humanists leading the way...and they celebrate what is deviant."
You are simply wrong on every level (im fighting the urge to call you an idiot, oops!!!)
Also, you never responded to any of my replies on the "A Palestinian State come fall... what can go wrong?" debate despite saying the opposite by posting a response on the debate instead of disputing what i had posted, did you resort to such underhanded tactics cause you knew you were losing quite badly?
The United States was not founded on principles of a christian nation.
The founding fathers actually opposed Christianity
They were men of The Enlightenment, not men of Christianity. They were Deists who did not believe the bible was true.
The only people who think that the nation was founded as a Christian Nation are the religious wackjobs like yourself.
If the U.S.A. was founded on the Judeo-Christian religion, the Constitution would clearly say so ; but it does not. When the Founders wrote the nation's Constitution, they specified that "no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States." (Article 6, section 3) This provision was radical in its day-- giving equal citizenship to believers and non-believers alike. They wanted to ensure that no single religion could make the claim of being the official, national religion, such as England had. Nowhere in the Constitution does it mention religion, except in exclusionary terms. It mentions "We The People". The words "Jesus Christ, Christianity, Bible, and God" are never mentioned in the Constitution-- not once.
The Declaration of Independence gives us important insight into the opinions of the Founding Fathers. Thomas Jefferson wrote that the power of the government is derived from the governed. Up until that time, it was claimed that kings ruled nations by the authority of God. The Declaration was a radical departure from the idea of divine authority. It was a letter from the Colonies to the English King, stating their intentions to separate themselves. The Declaration is not a governing document. It mentions "Nature's God" and "Divine Providence"-- that's the language of Deism, not Christianity.
Are you stupid? Sex is inserting a penis into vagina. Oral sex is inserting a penis into a mouth or the licking of a vagina. The word 'oral' is there for a reason.
I can barely respond to you, your viewpoint is so bizarre. I do pick at things that I find immoral.....and you do the opposite...the only thing....you dont mind anything immoral
The difference being you believe your views have to be immoral to everyone and they're not. Not everyone has to have the same opinion as you. How can you say I don't find anything immoral? Have you ever asked me? I find many things immoral rape, incest, physical and verbal abuse, racism, homophobia, sexism, neglecting children, neglecting animals, drug abuse and the list goes on.
Gosh I hope you don't have children...I can only imagine
How dare you insult my parenting? You clearly don't read my arguments because I've posted about 80 times that I have a daughter. She is beautiful, wonderful and has an amazing upbringing by two very caring parents.
The reason their are more divorces is that people don't take marriage seriously anymore. This is no longer a Christian nation and the reason all this is happening is because of that
Exactly, because people don't blindly follow a book anymore. Again this is just your opinion. Why should people abide to Christian beliefs, there is no proof that it is the truth. The only thing that dictates marriage as sacred is religion. And since a lot of people aren't religious you should just let them be instead of judging and insulting them for not following a path that could be make believe.
We now have secular humanists leading the way...and they celebrate what is deviant
No what you think is deviant. I have no problem with sex before marriage, homosexuals, children out of wedlock, single parents e.c.t. Why? Because there isn't anything wrong with it. It's a life choice. You can't just shun people because they don't follow a religious path that might not even be true.
No right or wrong...if it feels good do it.......even if it breaks up a marriage and destroys families and hurts children. Me me me me......thats all that matters to them
What so now all non religious beings are cheating on their partners? Don't be so shallow minded. I would never cheat on a partner or destroy someone elses relationship by being the mistress. It's not me, me, me. It's my daughter, fiance and me. And our family is the most important thing in the world. Mainly my daughters happiness. Don't you ever imply I'm selfish.
Children out of wedlock......does not surprise me you would say this...
No because I have a child out of wedlock. Tell me what's wrong with it then? Go on! I have a stable, loving, faithful relationship with my partner which is more than some married people can say. Marriage has nothing to do with parenting. The person does.
Would you care if your daugher were a porn star? And you would encourage her of course, right? Its good money and hey ya get to screw a lot of guys.
Don't be so vile. Of course I'd care but could I stop her? No. I can't lock her up once she's an adult. I'd never encourage it or applaud it and I'd try my best to stop her.
And you said parents should be controlling what they watch on television? Why on earth would you say this? Aren't you for free speech and teaching sex education in nursery school?
Actually I believe in some forms of censorship which differs greatly to some people on here so don't assume you know everything I believe in. And when have I ever said nursery should teach sex education, don't be so disgusting. I think children should have basic biology lessons and intensive sex education once in secondary school (high school to you in U.S).
You the open ones with no boundaries...who thinks everything on television is great and healthy?
I have boundaries stop LYING. And when did I say television is great and healthy? Liar.
You think its illegal to watch bestiality? Its on the internet..dont think its hard to find.
It is illegal. You can find child porn on the internet. It doesn't make it okay or legal.
And what is wrong with bestiality in your book? Are you closed minded or something? LOL
Apart from the fact it's raping animals? Why do you think it's okay?
I still can't get over you thinking that oral sex is not sex....
I mean really......you wouldnt care that your kids did this on the playground eh?
It's not sex. It's ORAL sex the clue is in the word ORAL. Of course I'd care as much as I'd care if kids were giving out hand jobs. It's still sexual. It's just not intercourse, is it now. I dread to think what you teach your children about sex because you've clearly got it all backwards.
As I said a simple google search on sex acts shows they all consider oral as a sex act.
Your list of immoral things...infringes on people. You are very intolerant. What right do you have to define what is moral and what is not (you tell me I dont have the right).....if you then question my view on morals and try to define it?
You are in a small minority of people who think oral sex is not classified as sex.
You said, "Exactly, because people don't blindly follow a book anymore. Again this is just your opinion. Why should people abide to Christian beliefs, there is no proof that it is the truth. The only thing that dictates marriage as sacred is religion. And since a lot of people aren't religious you should just let them be instead of judging and insulting them for not following a path that could be make believe."
Oh I know this...one reason the country is sinking fast. I believe Christ was perfect, and if people lived according to what He says is the truth, there would be less heartache...and more order. People would love their spouse as themselves...no adutlty, no child abuse....etc. You mock the teachings of Christ as others do here. Who can you put up against Him in love and ethics? Why do you think today the Bible is still the best selling book of ALL TIME? Not with just Americans but all over the world. The worlds largest religion is that of Christianity....I am in good company and I am certainly not alone in my beliefs.
You think I am insulting you people. What are you doing to me? I am called names...and I am told in no certain terms that what I believe is wrong....THAT IMPLIES A RIGHT. So if I am wrong in the truth....what is right? Do tell me. You just gave a list of all the things YOU THINK are immoral. Who made you God?
You said, "No what you think is deviant. I have no problem with sex before marriage, homosexuals, children out of wedlock, single parents e.c.t. Why? Because there isn't anything wrong with it. It's a life choice. You can't just shun people because they don't follow a religious path that might not even be true."
You said again, I am wrong....that my beliefs are deviant. So again...you imply I am wrong. Boy are you intolerant. You said I should be tolerant....does that go for you accepting of my views?
There are many life choices that people make I would bet you think are wrong because different cultures believe different things. How about child marriage? They did it back in early times. How about pedophilia? How about selling children? Selling fetal body parts for a cash business? How about group marriages?
Homosexual sex is not normal IMO. The anus was not made to operate that way...ask any doctor who deals in that kind of medicine. That is my opinion.
You said, "Don't be so vile. Of course I'd care but could I stop her? No. I can't lock her up once she's an adult. I'd never encourage it or applaud it and I'd try my best to stop her."
Why I can't beleive you find porn bad. You are so intolerant....Its sex, something to be celebrated and shared....isnt that your view on sex? And she could probably make good money....plus be famous. And what if she only did oral......then it wouldnt in your opinion be sex. LOL
To think you would teach your daughter that she should be ashamed of her body. Wow. And then make fun of porn stars. LOL
Now I love this...what you said here. "Apart from the fact it's raping animals? Why do you think it's okay?
This takes the cake. Your pro-abortion but stick up for animals. Just like a liberal moral relativist.
Sex is great to experience right? It feels good...blah blah blah.
Why would sex with animals be any different? And it is certainly not rape, not if you consider humans on a higher level than animals. Obviously you think animals and humans are equal.
But tell me this........have you ever eaten meat or fish? If you have that animal was no doubt slautered. Did you get permission to kill the animal from the animal? LMAO
I think an animal would prefer to have sex and not be slautered for your dinner table wouldnt you? But you have eaten meat....so you killed and raped by your own book. Shame on you.
In fact....do you own a pet? Ever put your pet on a leash? Every been to a zoo? Did you make sure your pet is ok with your treatment of him? And what about the poor animals at the zoos? We cage them for our enjoyment. Did we get their permission?
I am not making a case for bestiality, I am against it...just pointing out how stupid your logic is on this. But your open minded remember and wouldnt think of telling someone else they shouldnt do it, right?
You said, "It's not sex. It's ORAL sex the clue is in the word ORAL. Of course I'd care as much as I'd care if kids were giving out hand jobs. It's still sexual. It's just not intercourse, is it now. I dread to think what you teach your children about sex because you've clearly got it all backwards."
It is stimulation of a part of the body by the mouth....the genitals. Most people do it for what reason? Can people have an orgasm....doing it? And its not sex? LMAO
So you say oral sex is not sex...but its still sexual. LMAO Again your too much. Would love to see you try to explain this one to your kids.
I am not backwards....your view is so ridiculous that its laughable. Go google sex acts........and ORAL SEX IS ALWAYS LISTED.
And gee what is wrong with a handjob.......that isnt sex either but I bet if you came home and found your daughter on the couch with some guy and he had his hands down her pants......you crap yours. But then its not sex....its watching television. LOL
Your list of immoral things...infringes on people. You are very intolerant
Infringes on awful people. You say I'm intolerant because I find rape immoral. Do you find rape immoral? I'm guessing yes, does that make you intolerant too?
What right do you have to define what is moral and what is not (you tell me I dont have the right)
When have I ever said you don't have the right to have morals? Everyone has the right to have morals to which they stand by it's just some peoples greatly differ. I'd find it a lot easier to debate with you if you stopped making up lies. If you're going to make claims could you at least re quote what I have said to prove it. Because half the things you accuse me of saying, I've never said at all.
You are in a small minority of people who think oral sex is not classified as sex
Not where I live, like I said in the last argument maybe it's different in the U.S in which case just let this debate rest. In the UK sex is intercourse and intercourse only. Everything else is foreplay.
Oh I know this...one reason the country is sinking fast.
So any decline is because people aren't Christians? I fail to see the logical connection. Why do people have to follow Christianity to be better people? Other religions have nicer and much less condemning morals.
I believe Christ was perfect, and if people lived according to what He says is the truth, there would be less heartache...and more order. People would love their spouse as themselves...no adutlty, no child abuse..
So if someone does not believe in Christ or follow his teachings they are likely to cheat on their husband or wife? I'm sorry but there is no logical connection again. If people completely followed the Christian teachings then we'd also be burning homosexuals. Is that loving and orderly? No.
Who can you put up against Him in love and ethics?
That's assuming we know what real love and ethics are. If Jesus existed then yeah he was a good guy. I have no denial in that fact. You just seem to assume that because I'm not religious I must mock religion.
Why do you think today the Bible is still the best selling book of ALL TIME?
And this is relevant to our debate how?
The worlds largest religion is that of Christianity....I am in good company and I am certainly not alone in my beliefs.
Still irrelevant. You're not proving that Christianity is the definite word because it has more followers.
You said again, I am wrong....that my beliefs are deviant. So again...you imply I am wrong.
Wrong. You said other beliefs were deviant in your previous post I just rectified that you think they're deviant. I never accused your beliefs of being wrong, it was actually the other way round. Don't turn your own insults onto me! You said this
We now have secular humanists leading the way...and they celebrate what is deviant
You said I should be tolerant....does that go for you accepting of my views?You said I should be tolerant....does that go for you accepting of my views?
I do accept your views I just don't agree with them. You're entitled to your opinion. You however don't accept my views you have to persist at ridiculing them.
There are many life choices that people make I would bet you think are wrong because different cultures believe different things. How about child marriage? They did it back in early times. How about pedophilia? How about selling children? Selling fetal body parts for a cash business? How about group marriages?
I know. That's my point. People have different views. Derp. Doesn't change what I find immoral.
Homosexual sex is not normal IMO. The anus was not made to operate that way...ask any doctor who deals in that kind of medicine. That is my opinion
Should of known you were homophobic. Tell me why the male g-spot is in his anus if not to be pleasured. Homosexuality isn't even about anal sex it's about the mental inclination to be attracted to men. Some straight men like a finger up the anus.
Why I can't beleive you find porn bad. You are so intolerant....Its sex, something to be celebrated and shared....isnt that your view on sex?
I love porn. But you'd have to be in a strange frame of mind if you wanted your child to be a porn star.
And she could probably make good money....plus be famous. And what if she only did oral......then it wouldnt in your opinion be sex
Don't you EVER and I mean EVER talk about my tiny little girl sexually, it's vile minded and disgusting. She's not even a year old why the hell would you talk about her giving oral sex.
To think you would teach your daughter that she should be ashamed of her body. Wow. And then make fun of porn stars.
Stop insulting my parenting because you're actually making me very angry. Debate all you want but don't bring my innocent baby into it. I will teach my daughter to love every ounce of her body. And I don't make fun of porn stars stop lying.
Why would sex with animals be any different? And it is certainly not rape, not if you consider humans on a higher level than animals. Obviously you think animals and humans are equal.
Do you actually think sex with animals is okay? Because that's how it's coming across. Because animals can't consent to sex. And no animals and humans aren't equal especially not mentally and intelligently. It doesn't mean you can rape them. Would you beat an animal because you are the superior being?
But tell me this........have you ever eaten meat or fish? If you have that animal was no doubt slautered. Did you get permission to kill the animal from the animal?
Had a massive steak last night. No matter what I do the animal is going to be slaughtered why would I waste it? That's like saying rapes okay because people murder people which is worse, your arguments border weird and often don't make much sense in the context of the argument.
I think an animal would prefer to have sex and not be slautered for your dinner table wouldnt you? But you have eaten meat....so you killed and raped by your own book. Shame on you.
What?!? I've eaten meat so I rape animals? How did you come to that conclusion? I'm not sure I could assume what an animal would prefer. I'd rather be ethically killed than raped, personally. The only exception now being I have a daughter so death is not an option for me.
In fact....do you own a pet? Ever put your pet on a leash? Every been to a zoo? Did you make sure your pet is ok with your treatment of him? And what about the poor animals at the zoos? We cage them for our enjoyment. Did we get their permission?
Nope not pets, but nice try. Zoo's don't just exist for enjoyment. Many are for breeding programmes to ensure the survival of endangered species or animals rescued from the black market. I don't even know why I'm disputing this, you really stray so far from the original point that I get lost in what point you're trying to make. This is entirely irrelevant to raping animals.
I am not making a case for bestiality, I am against it...just pointing out how stupid your logic is on this. But your open minded remember and wouldnt think of telling someone else they shouldnt do it, right?
You're against it. So this whole, very strange, argument you've been making you have to answer to yourself. I never implied or stated I was open minded only you have. I don't dictate. I just have things that I don't agree with I'm not saying my view is right.
It is stimulation of a part of the body by the mouth....the genitals. Most people do it for what reason? Can people have an orgasm....doing it?
Sure you can orgasm if you do it right. I still don't consider sex. Sex to me means intercourse.
So you say oral sex is not sex...but its still sexual. LMAO Again your too much. Would love to see you try to explain this one to your kids.
It is sexual. Lots of things are sexual. Nipple stimulation, stripping, masturbation it doesn't mean they're sex. It's not that difficult to explain.
Go google sex acts........and ORAL SEX IS ALWAYS LISTED.
Sex acts is not the same word as sex alone.
And gee what is wrong with a handjob.......that isnt sex either but I bet if you came home and found your daughter on the couch with some guy and he had his hands down her pants......you crap yours. But then its not sex....its watching television.
My daughter is 8 months old, you know she's a baby I've told you about 40 times. Why are using her as a sexual example? It's disgusting and offensive. Would you like it if I said 'hey imagine your little girl being done in the ass'? Just because something isn't intercourse doesn't mean it isn't sexual. Urinating isn't sex, if she was pissing all over the sofa it's not just watching television. Your examples are pointless and strange.
I did not use your particular daughter...but used a scenario to illustrate my point.
You just got offended. YOu say you love porn.....but would not want to partake in something you find moral. Why? Are porn starts beneath you? Is the sex act wrong and ugly?
Why would you not want her to do it?
I am making a point by all this....you just don't like it.
My illustrations are not strange...they pose questions...questions you don't obviously want to address.
You just got offended. YOu say you love porn.....but would not want to partake in something you find moral. Why? Are porn starts beneath you? Is the sex act wrong and ugly?
I cannot speak for him, but the way I determine if something is immoral is if it harms other people. So I do not see porn as immoral. Just because I don't see something as immoral doesn't mean it is a wise thing to do. Mountain climbing without the proper equipment isn't immoral, but that doesn't make it a wise thing to do.
I did not use your particular daughter...but used a scenario to illustrate my point.
Why use that then? You know I have a daughter why couldn't you have used a scenario that wouldn't be construed as a personal attack?
YOu say you love porn.....but would not want to partake in something you find moral. Why? Are porn starts beneath you? Is the sex act wrong and ugly?
I like watching zombie films too, I wouldn't want to partake in a zombie holocaust. Your analogy is awful.
Why would you not want her to do it?
Because the money is terrible for a start. If she really wanted to be in the porn industry I'd support her decision. But initially I would discourage it.
I am making a point by all this....you just don't like it.
No, I don't like you saying 'your daughter giving out oral' when she is 8 months old. It has nothing to do with your point since I've made mine pretty clear.
My illustrations are not strange...they pose questions...questions you don't obviously want to address.
I answered your questions, I just find making reference to my baby and the porn industry odd.
You made the statement that you loved porn. I wanted to see just how much you loved it, you sounded like it was morally acceptable.
If you are so sensitive that you don't want family considered (they do make us what we are and believe) then I suggest you take that fact off your profile. I pressed you on the issue. You did not like it.
If you love porn....then what is so bad about it that you would not want your daughter to do it one day. You tell me my morals are wrong about issues and that I am closed minded and really prudish....aren't you prudish for not wanting your daughter to one day do it?
Or do you mean...hey I love porn as long as someone elses little girl is doing it?
You made the statement that you loved porn. I wanted to see just how much you loved it, you sounded like it was morally acceptable.
I do love to watch porn. It is morally acceptable to me. Perhaps not to others but I like it.
If you are so sensitive that you don't want family considered (they do make us what we are and believe) then I suggest you take that fact off your profile. I pressed you on the issue. You did not like it
That's like me telling you not to openly admit you are Christian if you don't want it considered. All you do is complain when people question Christ. Just because you're a Christian doesn't mean I'm going to speak about God offensively. So why do it with my daughter?
If you love porn....then what is so bad about it that you would not want your daughter to do it one day.
Because there are better career options. It's no different than not wanting your child to work in Burger King.
You tell me my morals are wrong about issues and that I am closed minded and really prudish..
When have I ever called you closed minded and prudish? Actually answer this because I'm fed up of you not replying when I tell you you've lied. Again I say a few of your morals appear wrong to me but not universally.
“Because the money is terrible for a start. If she really wanted to be in the porn industry I'd support her decision. But initially I would discourage it.”
Liar. Money does not have anything to do with this come on…be honest. You would discourage it for all the reasons a parent who cared about his child would discourage it. Sleeping around with people who are sleeping around with people in the industry who could be exposed to all sorts of STD’s. It’s a rough lifestyle… but the stuff these people put out…..YOU LOVE.
You said, “No, I don't like you saying 'your daughter giving out oral' when she is 8 months old. It has nothing to do with your point since I've made mine pretty clear.”
I did not mean when she is 8 month sold for crying out loud. Come on please……. I mean of course when she is older….you know the age of accountability. Its not sex you know…right?
You said, “I answered your questions, I just find making reference to my baby and the porn industry odd.” acceptable and moral…that the people are upstanding and probably deserve to be respected for their work. BUT…………they
They have nothing in common, take a chill pill. My point was this, since it went way over your head.
You love porn. You are implying it is socially are engaging in something you would not want your daughter ONE DAY………to do. You say it has to do with money…I think you’re lying.
Liar. Money does not have anything to do with this come on…be honest. You would discourage it for all the reasons a parent who cared about his child would discourage it. Sleeping around with people who are sleeping around with people in the industry who could be exposed to all sorts of STD’s. It’s a rough lifestyle… but the stuff these people put out…..YOU LOVE.
How am I a liar? You have no idea what my mind process is. And yes it does play a part, they're paid awful money, it's no different to prefer your child not to work on the minimum wage at Burger King. Tell me would you prefer your child to be a vet or a shop greeter? It has little to do with sleeping around catching STD's. You're more likely to do that in everyday life than in a regulated porn business where STD's tests have to be carried out regularly. Yes it would worry me, but I fail to see the relevance of what you're saying. Just because I like something doesn't mean I wouldn't be worried about the risks for my daughter. I like drinking alcohol, does that mean I can't worry about my daughter getting drunk and falling over?
No one wants to imagine their daughter having sex, just like a child doesn't want to think about their parents having sex. It has nothing to with being in the porn industry I'd worry about these things anyway. She's probably going to have sex eventually either way who would I be to dictate who with?
I did not mean when she is 8 month sold for crying out loud. Come on please……. I mean of course when she is older….you know the age of accountability. Its not sex you know…right?
I know, but it's still weird. Just like you were talking about children giving out blow jobs in the playground at school. Could you not have come up with a better analogy?
You love porn. You are implying it is socially are engaging in something you would not want your daughter ONE DAY………to do. You say it has to do with money…I think you’re lying.
I do like to watch porn. Take into consideration this as you seemed to have missed it last time. I like watching zombie films does that mean I want a zombie holocaust? I like watching documentaries about murderers does that mean I want my daughter to be a murderer?
I never said outright said she couldn't. I said I'd prefer if it she didn't but if she really really wanted to I'd support her. It's her life. And when I said about money I said 'for a start' stop implying that is the only reason I wouldn't like her to it's one of many.
Infringes on WHO YOU THINK are aweful people. You say I am intolerant for being against abortion. Rape is immoral....but so is abortion.
I never pretended to be tolerant. There are many things I do not tolerate. You are the one that says we should be tolerant of just about everything.
I am not making up lies, just exposing that what you say does not hang together logically and you don't like it.
So EVERYONE...in the UK thinks oral sex isn't sex. LOL EVERYONE? How do you know this? You made a statement you can't make, because to make it you would have to know EVERYONE. Do you know everyone?
What do you mean foreplay...? You mean all activity done before intercourse? What.....? you people in the UK cant just have oral SEX without intentions of having intercourse? LOL In that case what do you call it...foreplay wouldnt make sense to describe the activity?
You said, "So any decline is because people aren't Christians? I fail to see the logical connection. Why do people have to follow Christianity to be better people? Other religions have nicer and much less condemning morals."
Of course as a Christian I believe that Christ is the only truth. I do not beleive in forcing people to accept my religion, but I have a right to speak out on it and live it. I believe in free speech. I see the decline in society because people today are moral relativists...they are taking the god role and this affects family life....divorce, children.....sex in general is cheaper more readily experienced (porn, affairs etc) and accepted by society. But I believe this is not been healthy for society...as violence, drug use, crime, higher divorce rate...etc....have skyrocketed.
I believe Jesus was a perfect human being...that his commandments are perfect for society and order.
When you say other faiths are better....please elaborate on this. What other religious figure...compares to Christ in terms of love, respect and living a moral life?
The bible as the biggest selling book of all time is relevant to this discussion. It is best selling for one reason, a reason that you can't comprehent because of your hostility towards Christianity. If there were 100 different flavors of ice cream and chocolate won out by 70%...which flavor would you say would be the most popular? Vanilla? No, chocolate. More people would buy chocolate. So if the Bible is the best selling book of all time....that speaks volumes to the content and how people feel about it.
You said, "I do accept your views I just don't agree with them. You're entitled to your opinion. You however don't accept my views you have to persist at ridiculing them."
You make fun of my views and you have ridiculed them many times. You just made a negative statement about Christianity, my faith in your last post. You said, "Other religions have nicer and much less condemning morals." You implied my faith is not nice. You said my faith was not as nice as others. So again...which ones meet your moral qualifications as good.......one that might say...having a baby out of wedlock was ok, homosexuality is ok, abortion is ok, one that says the sin the bible condemns is basically ok? Is that the good kind of religion to beleive...one that does not limit one, does not step on toes?
"Should of known you were homophobic. Tell me why the male g-spot is in his anus if not to be pleasured. Homosexuality isn't even about anal sex it's about the mental inclination to be attracted to men. Some straight men like a finger up the anus.'
I don't hate homosexuals, I just believe the sex they have is not normal to the human body. The rectum has a function, primarily for elimination. Its stretching capabilities are not like that of others on the human body. If you go to medical sites dealing in this...you will see the common problems that homosexuals have in this area.
About animals....so you think one could not have sex with an animal because its rape...abuse. Yet you eat meat and had a big steak the other day. Hell at least with sex, they would get enjoyment, not a knife to their throats. LOL
You say I am intolerant for being against abortion. Rape is immoral....but so is abortion
Again another lie. Feel free to post an argument when I called you intolerant for being against abortion. But you won't find one because it's a big fat lie.
I never pretended to be tolerant. There are many things I do not tolerate. You are the one that says we should be tolerant of just about everything.
Another lie I never said or even implied humans should be tolerant of everything. Liar.
I am not making up lies, just exposing that what you say does not hang together logically and you don't like it.
Refer to the above example that exposes your slander towards me. They are the first sentences in one argument you posted and you managed to lie.
So EVERYONE...in the UK thinks oral sex isn't sex. LOL EVERYONE?
Lie. I said my society and I clearly emphazied the word MY to imply my social group. I never claimed that the entire UK population shares that view. Liar.
you people in the UK cant just have oral SEX without intentions of having intercourse?
What? I do oral regularly without having intercourse.
LOL In that case what do you call it...foreplay wouldnt make sense to describe the activity?
Oral. Cunnilingus. Fellatio.
Of course as a Christian I believe that Christ is the only truth
You can believe it is the only truth. I'm not stopping that. But you can't 100% know for certain it is the only truth. My problem here is that because you believe Christ is the only truth is that you claim my views to be 100% wrong.
I believe in free speech
Then why are you trying to hinder mine by claiming I'm a bad person for expressing an opinion?
they are taking the god role and this affects family life
Taking the God role? That's a wild claim to make. Can't people just choose to have morals and values that do not involve the word of religion?
When you say other faiths are better....please elaborate on this.
I didn't say other faiths are better.
What other religious figure...compares to Christ in terms of love, respect and living a moral life?
Gautama Buddha. However, again this is subjective to personal moral.
It is best selling for one reason, a reason that you can't comprehent because of your hostility towards Christinity
When have I been hostile towards the religion Christianity? I haven't. Liar. If you're going to make claims that aren't true about me for 90% of your arguments at least provide proof. Not that's it's possible because you're just lying.
If there were 100 different flavors of ice cream and chocolate won out by 70%...which flavor would you say would be the most popular?
I didn't say Christianity wasn't the most popular religion. I'm just saying because it's popular doesn't mean it's the religion that holds the definitive truth.
So if the Bible is the best selling book of all time....that speaks volumes to the content and how people feel about it.
Baring in mind one religious family will buy multiple books, it's customary for many hotels to supply the book. Churches own hundreds of copies. And it's a really ancient book makes it slightly unfair statistically on other novel contenders.
You make fun of my views and you have ridiculed them many times.
When? Prove it with a re-post if you're going to accuse me of this.
You just made a negative statement about Christianity, my faith in your last post. You said, "Other religions have nicer and much less condemning morals."
Morals are a small part of religion. I didn't make a negative comment. Other religions do have nicer morals on some aspects to me. Christians have nicer morals on other aspects. I was just making the point that there is little suggest Christianity must be the 100% official religion.
You implied my faith is not nice
No I didn't. I said 'nicer'. If I implied your faith were negative I'd have made a negative comparison 'not as bad' or 'less discriminating'. I said nothing of the sort.
So again...which ones meet your moral qualifications as good.......one that might say...having a baby out of wedlock was ok, homosexuality is ok, abortion is ok, one that says the sin the bible condemns is basically ok? Is that the good kind of religion to beleive...one that does not limit one, does not step on toes?
As I've said before I have faith in no religion. The one I can understand and relate to the most is Buddhism I'm not saying it's perfect or 100% the truth. It could be, but there is no proof. It's the same with all religions.
It has nothing to do with the Bible. I'm not some sort of anti-christ that goes out of my way to defy the word of God. There are parts of the Bible moral I like.
Feed the hungry, house the homeless, clothe the naked.
I think that's a wonderful moral to live by. It doesn't mean I have to agree with the entire content of the Bible.
About animals....so you think one could not have sex with an animal because its rape...abuse. Yet you eat meat and had a big steak the other day. Hell at least with sex, they would get enjoyment, not a knife to their throats. LOL
You are all over the place on this....
Did I kill the animal? No, it was readily killed. Not eating it would be a waste of a life. The context of rape being okay because of murder is an odd analogy. That's like saying raping a human is okay because murder happens all the time. I'm not all over the place at all, I explained myself already. You have the same view, that raping animals is wrong but you eat meat. How about asking yourself if your views are all over the place? A lot of people share our view. Why ridicule a view and action you share with me. If I agree with you I say. You're just looking for reasons to argue now.
Are you pro-choice or not? Pro-choice means you believe it should be legal so that the woman who want to kill their unborns can do it. YES OR NO
If you say yes, you condone abortion, even if you would never get one yourself.
I believe you have said in the past that you are pro-choice, so I am not lying certainly not slandering you.
You said, " Oral. Cunnilingus. Fellatio."
So you are saying these are not sex acts. If they arent what are they?
You said, "Lie. I said my society and I clearly emphazied the word MY to imply my social group. I never claimed that the entire UK population shares that view. Liar."
Did you use the word society? I don't think so. Here is what you said.....
“ In the UK sex is intercourse and intercourse only. Everything else is foreplay.”
You are speaking for everyone. Where are the stats on this that proves your point? I cant believe that everyone in the UK is that ignorant.
You say I call you names slander you. Yet you are the one who is dishing out the names. You called me a homophobe. Was that nice...? Just because I believe sex between the same sex is wrong…….you assume I hate them . Who are you to say this? Are you always this judgemental?
You said, “Then why are you trying to hinder mine by claiming I'm a bad person for expressing an opinion?”
I am not trying to hinder you at all, but to point out that especially your pro-stance on abortion is immoral based on your own self ascribed moral system. We differ on just about every issue and this is directly related to our worldviews and our position on God. The belief or disbelief in God colors our world and affects our actions and being. I don’t think you’re a bad person perse….I think your positions are immoral based on my moral system…the moral system I believe comes from God.
Let me give you an example. Obama says he is against abortion…but then he makes the statement that he wants abortion should be legal so that if his girls should need it, they wouldn’t be hampered with a mistake. Now he also says he is a Christian. What is says does not fly right with scriptures. His morals do not reflect his Christian faith. They reflect what He believes is right. Mine do. If abortion is morally wrong….it is morally wrong everywhere you go in your private and public life.
You said, “ Taking the God role? That's a wild claim to make. Can't people just choose to have morals and values that do not involve the word of religion?”
Yes taking the God role. That is not a wild claim to make. God determines MY morals. I follow his rules. If you deny god you have to come up with a moral position on things. So people will make up what they want, whether it hurts anyone or not. Some might believe adultery is not immoral, porn is not immoral, stealing…etc….so for them its acceptable. I know it’s not because God says it is immoral.
So morals for you are subjective. They are absolute for me.
And you did say other faiths are better. This is what you said. “ Why do people have to follow Christianity to be better people? Other religions have nicer and much less condemning morals.”
You are stating that other religions are better. You don’t even remember what you post. LOL
You said, “So if someone does not believe in Christ or follow his teachings they are likely to cheat on their husband or wife? I'm sorry but there is no logical connection again. If people completely followed the Christian teachings then we'd also be burning homosexuals. Is that loving and orderly? No.”
I did not say that at all. But some who are not Christians might think cheating is moral. You yourself said morals are in the eye of the beholder…right? People should make up their own morals. They have to do this if they don’t believe in God.
You said, “She's not even a year old why the hell would you talk about her giving oral sex.”
What did you say? It’s not sex remember. Why are you so defensive…………its not sex and you love it. Oral sex is not really sex…………yet you call it that. Hmmmmmmmmm And everyone in the UK thinks its not sex? LOL yea right.
You said Gautama Buddha compares to Christ. Give me examples. Was he perfect? He left his wife and newborn son to travel around to find himself. What consideration that was eh?
You said, “Baring in mind one religious family will buy multiple books, it's customary for many hotels to supply the book. Churches own hundreds of copies. And it's a really ancient book makes it slightly unfair statistically on other novel contenders.’
Oh do they, how do you know? Hotels in the United States don’t do that anymore. Churches have to buy multiple bibles for ALL THE PEOPLE TO READ. They don’t buy them to keep in a closet…they are read. It is an old book, the first one ever published. Its popular because people want to read it, pray on it, learn by it.
You said, “When? Prove it with a re-post if you're going to accuse me of this.”
You have made pot shots at me in almost every post. You called me a homophobe……my faith is not the truth….that there are others that are morally better……..you show no proof of this however. Didn’t you also call me a pig?
And this takes the cake what you said here, “Did I kill the animal? No, it was readily killed. Not eating it would be a waste of a life. The context of rape being okay because of murder is an odd analogy. That's like saying raping a human is okay because murder happens all the time. I'm not all over the place at all, I explained myself already. You have the same view, that raping animals is wrong but you eat meat. How about asking yourself if your views are all over the place? A lot of people share our view. Why ridicule a view and action you share with me. If I agree with you I say. You're just looking for reasons to argue now.”
You say sex with animals is wrong because its rape…obviously because they can’t give permission. But you don’t think that killing them for a steak, that it would be a waste not to eat it……..haha………. You are all over the place.
Are you pro-choice or not? Pro-choice means you believe it should be legal so that the woman who want to kill their unborns can do it. YES OR NO
Are you pro-choice or not?
In that context yes I am pro-abortion. I'm sure we had this discussion already?
I believe you have said in the past that you are pro-choice, so I am not lying certainly not slandering you.
Do you read anything? This is a lie itself as I never accused you of lying about my abortion stance. This is what I said 'Again another lie. Feel free to post an argument when I called you intolerant for being against abortion. But you won't find one because it's a big fat lie.' I said you lied about me calling you intolerant for being against abortion. Because I didn't. So yes it's still a big fat lie.
So you are saying these are not sex acts. If they arent what are they?
They are sex acts I just personally don't see them as the word sex alone.
Did you use the word society? I don't think so.
Yes I did I said 'because my society in England don't classify sex and sexual acts in the same category I didn't know' then I followed that up by saying 'I said 3 times I'd let it rest and you still persist. Why drag up an argument that was settled days ago?' Funny how you chose to ignore my statement that we should agree to disagree. I already admitted I was wrong in a dictionary term sense and continued to elaborate that in my society oral is not considered sex. So why are you continuing to debate something I already admitted a mistake for?
You say I call you names slander you. Yet you are the one who is dishing out the names. You called me a homophobe. Was that nice...? Just because I believe sex between the same sex is wrong…….you assume I hate them . Who are you to say this? Are you always this judgemental?
You do call names and slander me. Just because I said I guessed you were homophobic doesn't change that you call names and lie. You said 'Homosexual sex is not normal IMO. The anus was not made to operate that way'. I'm sorry but the fact you refer to anal sex as 'homosexual sex' is homophobic. Firstly straight people have anal. Secondly what about homosexual woman? You're making an assumption that all homosexuals have anal sex. At least my comment was justified, what you said was homophobic.
I am not trying to hinder you at all, but to point out that especially your pro-stance on abortion is immoral based on your own self ascribed moral system.
So my morals are immoral based on my morals? Care to elaborate? You aren't pointing out anything just making silly claims without the quoting of my arguments.
We differ on just about every issue and this is directly related to our worldviews and our position on God. The belief or disbelief in God colors our world and affects our actions and being.
Firstly I'd like to point that I do not have a disbelief in God. I don't know why you keep bringing up the 'You're an Atheist' argument since I've already said I'm Agnostic. Have you ever heard me say outright God does not exist? I say I don't know if he exists or he doesn't. There is no proof so until there is proof I will refuse to follow the Bible as the truth.
Secondly if you think our opinions differ on everything than I am slightly confused as to what your morals entail. I told you a massive list of things I find immoral and you're saying your opinion is different to mine on most of them 'We differ on just about every issue'. So based on 'just about everything' meaning 'the majority' you disagree with at least half of my morals. Now we know that you have an opposite opinion on abortion and porn and children out of wedlock. But if I told you that I personally find the following immoral and I quote 'I find many things immoral rape, incest, physical and verbal abuse, racism, homophobia, sexism, neglecting children, neglecting animals, drug abuse' You're saying your moral stance on this is the opposite. So what 50% minimum of these things do you find moral?
Now obviously I'm not actually suggesting you find those things moral. I'm just pointing out the when you said we differ on just about every issue you were very wrong. Actually we probably share a lot more moral stances that we oppose to one another. Stop assuming I'm a crusader for all things bad. Not all morals come from the Bible you know. The Bible encourages homophobia and sexism, however the moral to not be homophobic and sexist came from the defiance of that. Thus morals are created outside of a religious context.
Obama says he is against abortion…but then he makes the statement that he wants abortion should be legal so that if his girls should need it, they wouldn’t be hampered with a mistake.
How is that an example? I haven't said I'm against abortion then commended it. I've always said I think abortion should be legal and I agree with it in most forms. I haven't contradicted that opinion or suddenly claimed an opposing position. In fact that's more of an example of you. I hate to bring it up but you called people murderers, champions of killing, abortion contributes, just because they agree abortion should be legal. Then went on to say you had an abortion. Isn't that just hypocritical? Would you call yourself these things?
Yes taking the God role. That is not a wild claim to make. God determines MY morals. I follow his rules. If you deny god you have to come up with a moral position on things. So people will make up what they want, whether it hurts anyone or not
Fucking hell. Christianity is not the only religion. Just because people don't follow a Christian God doesn't mean they have denied religion. People follow morals because if all kinds of religion. No one just 'makes up what they want' non religious humans just take on morals as they see them to effect everyday society. A lot of us decided 'no! do you know what Homosexuality is okay'. Is that harmful to anyone? No. Does it help to stop victimizing, bullying and discrimination? Yes!
Are you saying every moral you have is because it's God's? In that case why do you accept homosexuality (or so you said earlier) is that not going against the word of lord? But then I guess you have to 'love everyone and not judge' according to God's morals (notice the irony of those two examples?).
Some might believe adultery is not immoral, porn is not immoral, stealing…etc….so for them its acceptable. I know it’s not because God says it is immoral
NO, you don't KNOW it's immoral. You THINK it's immoral. You can't just say that something is definitely immoral because God says so in the Bible. The Bible also says to kill people who work on Sunday. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day must be put to death. (Exodus 31:15) Is that right? Just because the Bible and God say something does not mean it is definitely morally correct.
And you did say other faiths are better. This is what you said. “ Why do people have to follow Christianity to be better people? Other religions have nicer and much less condemning morals.
Nope I still fail to see where I said other faiths are better. I said other religions have nicer morals. Religion isn't just about moral now is it? I never said all aspects of Christianity are inferior to other religions.
You are stating that other religions are better. You don’t even remember what you post.
No I'm not. You just don't read. And mince my words.
I did not say that at all. But some who are not Christians might think cheating is moral.
Actually you did... you said I see the decline in society because people today are moral relativists...they are taking the god role and this affects family life....divorce, children.....sex in general is cheaper more readily experienced (porn, affairs etc) and accepted by society. But I believe this is not been healthy for society...as violence, drug use, crime, higher divorce rate...etc....have skyrocketed.
You said you believe the decline in society is because people don't follow God's rules and make their own. Mass implying that non-religious people are more likely to cheat on their spouse. Which is what I said.
Oh do they, how do you know? Hotels in the United States don’t do that anymore. Churches have to buy multiple bibles for ALL THE PEOPLE TO READ. They don’t buy them to keep in a closet…they are read. It is an old book, the first one ever published
How do I know who keeps Bibles? For starters I have family and friends who are religious and yes their household owns multiple Bibles. Secondly I stay in hotels I know they keep Bibles in the drawer because I've seen them. And churches buy multiple Bibles because I've been to church. And it's old. How does anything you just said dispute what I said? Can't you just admit you agree. You're making an argument out of something that doesn't need to be.
You said Gautama Buddha compares to Christ. Give me examples. Was he perfect? He left his wife and newborn son to travel around to find himself. What consideration that was eh?
Examples okay.
Traditional biographies of Gautama generally include numerous miracles, omens, and supernatural events. The character of the Buddha in these traditional biographies is often that of a fully transcendent and perfected being
Jesus performed miracles. Omens is what defines the 'good and evil' concept of the Bible. Supernatural events: Jesus rose from the grave. The Bible depicts Jesus as perfect. No difference on those grounds. I can't be bothered to post more so if you're wondering other similiarities the religions share (such as virgin conceptions) read this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gautama_Buddha.
I'm not saying one is better than the other. You asked who compared I have an
example.
You have made pot shots at me in almost every post. You called me a homophobe……my faith is not the truth….that there are others that are morally better……..you show no proof of this however.
I said I guessed you were homophobic because what you said was homophobic, at the least ignorant. I said your faith might not be the truth (and I show no proof? The proof is that there is no proof of God's existence!). Why do you lie so much? By the way everything you mentioned there was from one post even if I had made pot shots, which I don't believe I did, one post does not equate to the 50 or so posts I have made to you.
You say sex with animals is wrong because its rape…obviously because they can’t give permission. But you don’t think that killing them for a steak, that it would be a waste not to eat it……..haha………. You are all over the place
You disagree with animal sex. And you eat meat. So according to your logic you're all over the place. Care to explain? Probably not, you never reply to the questions. You just pick tiny extracts of my arguments, mix all the words up, lose the context and make wild claims about things I haven't even said.
I base my moral system on Gods....He tells me what is immoral and moral. How do you decide yours? And if you believe that morals are decided by the person themselves...then you would have to open the doors to a lot on your list. There is no right or wrong for you...because you make your morals up as you go along.
As for sex with animals........God tells me this is wrong. You are agnostic....so that truth for you is not set in stone...open for everyone to decide for him/herself. If you say its wrong.....what are you basing it on?
You said that there is no evidence for Gods existence......that is a statement of fact. You did not say, I dont think so BUT rather..........I know. So you are an atheist..you deny him because you have not seen him.
Oh and church mouse instead of down voting me for every response I make to you how about you come up with more than a paragraph reply to an argument that took me a long time to write out. Not once have I down voted you, you're just being lazy, if you disagree make a valid argument. Do you not wonder why you reward points are less then half of your argument points?
How do you decide yours? And if you believe that morals are decided by the person themselves...then you would have to open the doors to a lot on your list. There is no right or wrong for you...because you make your morals up as you go along.
Mine are decided on a civilized society and what I have learnt to be beneficial directly to the people around me. I don't know many Christians, around 95% of the people I know have no religion. However, many more people I know and like are gay, single parents, having sex before marriage and are some of the most amazing people I know. I could in no way morally accept the negative opinions God suggests because I know Christians who are awful people in comparison. Even if God's existence was proven I probably still wouldn't value some of the morals. I don't 'make them up' it's what is considered moral in my social environment.
As for sex with animals........God tells me this is wrong. You are agnostic....so that truth for you is not set in stone..
Do you even know what Agnosticism is? So I'm not allowed to have a moral ground on something because it didn't come from a religion? Hell, why don't I just walk around like an emotionless zombie since I'm not allowed a moral or emotional opinion on anything because I don't follow the law of God.
If you say its wrong.....what are you basing it on?
My social environment, my personal opinion. Not because it was dictated to me through a book.
You said that there is no evidence for Gods existence......that is a statement of fact. You did not say, I dont think so BUT rather..........I know
There isn't any proof of God's existence. Show me proof? That's just matter of fact I'm afraid. There's no proof he exists, no proof he doesn't.
So you are an atheist..you deny him because you have not seen him.
Where on earth do you get your logic? I'm an Atheist not Agnostic because there is no proof of God's existence? Do you even know what an Agnostic is? I believe God's existence will never been proven in my lifetime. I neither believe or disbelieve in God. There is no evidence for him existing or not existing. I have however chosen NOT to follow Christianity because even if God existed I still wouldn't agree with 90% of the old testament and around 40% of the new testament.
Assuming that statistic was generated 20 years ago it would have been roughly correct... violent crime rates peaked in the early 90s. Of course violent crime rates have been almost cut in half in the last 20 years since then, so...
First, that's hilarious coming from someone who started this off by posting a giant list of claims without a single source.
As for mine, it's called the Department of Justice Bureau of Justice Statistics. Perhaps you should have visited it before jumping into this discussion making wildly inaccurate statements.
Well, that may very well be the case, but you said that violent crime has gone up 467% over the past 40 years, that the United States has a higher incarceration rate than Russia does not really support that claim. Furthermore, you implied that modern media is to blame for that increase. I would really like to see some evidence for such a claim.
Although I'm tired of all the people COMPLAINING about America's cultural problems without DOING A DAMNED THING, yes it is a big problem. Are children are wasting away without futures becasue our culture has lost all motivation to keep going, keep moving, get smarter, prove itself. All we do is watch TV play on the computer and do other worthless crap. Then our morals are deteriorating. People take NO responsibility for their own lives and they don't work towards any future nor think about consequences or rewards for action. It's really depressing :/
There is actually a very good reason for this. In the past only the educated elite had the capacity to express their opinions, whereas today with technology being what it is, everybody has the ability to express their opinions. In feudal times the peasants had no forum unto which to express themselves, they were busy tending to the fields. The media we have today is only catering to the majority of people, and the majority of people are of average to low intelligence.
Yeah, comparisons between modern culture and historical cultures often fall prey to this problem.
Though I think it's not so much that people couldn't express their opinions; rather it's more that their expressions don't survive to this day. Surely many peasant farmers liked to chat with their friends after a long day's work, and many peasant mothers told stories to little children. But we know very little of the culture of a despised and illiterate group. Only the most educated, wealthy, and powerful stratum of society was literate, and only they were considered worthy of notice. Their culture is the only one recorded in writing to be studied and admired by posterity.
In more recent times, everyone can read and write, and with the rise of democracy, it's the masses who have become important. Theirs is the culture that is recorded down and studied. And the modern times are known and remembered by us - we have a lot of first-hand information about it.
So contrasting classical music with rock and pop, or contrasting classic novels with pulp fiction, really is unfair. It's judging the popular culture of one age by the high culture of another age, and concluding that the age as a whole is "dumb".
Well, are you saying that cultural intelligence is measured by a debate that goes on on TV? As well, are you suggesting that this means that there have been no intellectual debates on American, mainstream TV?
Well, I don't watch much TV. I've seen a few decent debates on Cable News (not on pundit programs, but organized debates, and not the presidential ones either).
To me, though, airing a debate isn't as big a deal these days. Especially since we now have the internet. In 1969, information was not nearly as accessible as it is now. Profound debates (when they rarely occurred) were a big deal since people had no idea what was going on in the world because THEY WERE DUMB. If I wanted to, I could obtain an entire outline of everything that every philosopher has ever believed in, because of the internet. Even older Americans understand the power of the internet. They may not utilize it nearly as much as the young people, but even my dad (a computer retard) can access Wikipedia (after accidentally googling it instead of just typing in the web-address).
American TV is mainly about entertainment (actually, that's what it was created for). Before the TV, people just had radio, and they used that to get there news and entertainment. Now-a-days, we have the internet, and there are plenty of debates to research there. As well, a 24 hour news-feed. Information is more accessible than it ever was, and the youth have been able to access so much information that isn't even important (like "does Japan truly use robot vending machines?")
All this attack on modern, American culture just seems to come from people who don't know how to use the tools to make them smarter, therefore, they clearly aren't as smart as those who have used those tools (like me).
What was your point about debates on television? I never mentioned them.
My point was that much of what is on television is crap and not good for kids to watch. Sure the cooking channel, history channel, cartoon channel, travel channel, some news channels are ok for the most part...I am talking about reality television and most music channels that broadcast questionable stuff. I am talking about cable networks that air shows like Idol...(which I watch) which is why I was dissapointed that Lady Gaga simulated the sex act doggie style on prime time television on a show such as this.
I am talking about mediums...that do not care about the audience that might be watching them but do everything for the buck.
I am talking about writers, directors, inventors, manufacturers who are selling products to suck our kids in. They don't care about the content.
I am talking about the negative influences of these especially on our kids.
"For example, studies have shown that teens who watch lots of sexual content on TV are more likely to initiate intercourse or participate in other sexual activities earlier than peers who don't watch sexually explicit shows."
"Alcohol ads on TV have actually increased over the last few years and more underage kids are being exposed to them than ever. A recent study by the Center on Alcohol Marketing and Youth (CAMY) found that youth exposure to alcohol ads on TV increased by 30% from 2001 to 2006"
"To give you perspective on just how much violence kids see on TV, consider this: The average American child will witness 200,000 violent acts on television by age 18. Kids may become desensitized to violence and more aggressive. TV violence sometimes begs for imitation because violence is often promoted as a fun and effective way to get what you want."
Here is a good article on Television and Mind Control
The fact is television can affect peoples behavior. And some behaviors are not good.
"25-year study, tracking children from birth has recently concluded that television viewing in childhood and adolescence is associated with poor educational achievement by 30 years of age. Early exposure to television may have long-lasting adverse consequences for educational achievement and later, the socio-economic status and well-being."
"What was your point about debates on television? I never mentioned them."
The post was addressed to me (you know the debate creator), if he was responding to your rant he would have disputed it, also i know this debate topic is pretty open and general but from what ive read of your posts you really are just talking about what you want to talk about.
You know, what's interesting is that I love violence, I love sex, and I love drugs/alcohol.
So I don't really see a problem with all of this "exposure".
Fact is, teens who engage in sports instead of video-games and TV are far more likely to sustain injury or death... I see today's youth NOT going outside and just staying at home as a good thing, since they are far less likely to sustain injury or death.
As well, culture was far more violent in the olden days. Hell, cops could beat random people back in the early 1900s just to get information out of them. Shit like that is intolerable. As well, drinking and driving was hardly a crime 50 years ago. Now, we have strict laws against that (which are highly enforced). So there goes your alcohol problem that you're oh-so afraid of.
Really, all this attack on modern culture, be it off-topic OMG OUR KIDS ARE WATCHING DUHS LADY GAGASS!!!!, or the on-topic OMG OUR KIDS ARE TOO STUPID, just comes from pretentious horse-rapists who have decided that these days suck, and they're the only smart ones to realize it (for the young ones who say it, at least). As well, just a bunch of old people bitching about today's youth.
Here's a tip. Stop being so paranoid and enjoy yourself. You'll be a lot happier.
I don't like violence, I love sex but in private, and I hate drugs and alcohol.
And I do see a problem and so do the experts.
They might be harmed physically through activity...but that does not mean that the sports alters their views on issues such as drugs, sex..........what does that have to do with television?
Kids today get less activity than in years past. Today most sit in front of computers for fun, instead of creative play.
As for simulating sex acts on stage.....female singers today feel they can't sing without having their breasts heaving out of their tops. Do you ever see Mariah Carey with breats covered up? Do any of them make videos without nudity of some kind?
Kids will get away with what they can. And I do not feel I am old. I just have class and think some form should be shown.....
Sure there will people in years past that were violent but certainly not like today when someone can own just about any firearm they want to own. And nothing in our country is highly enforced.
Why would you say that because I have these views that I couldnt possibly enjoy myself? Do you have to watch only what you think is cool to have fun?
So what you're saying is that you watch what you DON'T think is cool in order to have fun? So, if I think that grass is uncool, I can still have just as much fun with it as an action-figure, which I do find cool? whatever floats your boat.
But I still don't see the problem with letting kids be exposed to the real world (sex, drugs and violence). If anything, letting them know what exactly drugs are and what they can do to you should be a good thing. That way, they can use them responsibly. The D.A.R.E program lies to children. They exaggerate the harms of drugs, and in the end, this can cause children to think that there is absolutely nothing wrong with overdoing drugs. In a drug culture, children are well-informed on drugs.
But anyway, it comes down to you not liking drugs and violence on television, and me actually enjoying it. But this doesn't prove anything about it actually being detrimental towards society. The medieval times were a very religious, non-media times... they also beheaded people in the town-square for everyone to see.
Letting the T.V. baby sit is definitely not good but watching sesame street or electric company during my 3rd through 6th orbit around the sun (large nuclear reaction) was most definitely enlightening, not to mention Mr. Wizard. What I wouldn't give to be born with the technology of today, where I could find like minded humans to either answer my questions or to combine our intellect and search for those answerers that remain hidden. Let alone have a cable channel dedicated to pure science, the only truth that you will find in this chaotic mess, created by small, insecure individuals that make fun of intelligence during our formative years because its better to be liked by a group then to be unique and when we all were growing up, 95% of us were followers and the rest could care less about our peers approval because we knew our path was pure!
Sorry, to ramble but this concept urgently needs to be addressed for all or our benefit! Peace!!
I believe the media and the hipster culture spread inaccurate statements such as that one throughout society. As Bohemian mentioned, we are getting much smarter. Ideas like that one are formed without evidence.
I don't think our decline in education (number 1 to number 17 or so depending on the body determining placement) over the last few decades is due in any great way to pop culture, after all we've been declining for a long time and pop culture is constantly changing.
Not that reality TV and a lot of entertainment's tendency to glorify the stupid and insane isn't somewhat harmful,
But it has much more to do with our lack of investment and that we've turned the job of teaching into some second class option for D students coming out of community college after they find out they can't get a job doing anything else.
Not that some teachers don't do it for the right reasons and do a great job.
By and large though, you're not going to get a good education if you don't have good teachers, and you're not going to have good teachers as long as you pay them less than cocktail waitresses and ditch diggers.
Put the job of teaching back on the pedestal where it belongs, pay them enough where it is the A students competing for teaching jobs instead of the D students, stop letting crappy parents and bureaucrats interfere with teacher's daily itinerary, then when all of that is in place you can actually afford to begin firing the teachers who do suck and rolling back some of the powers of the teacher unions.
None of that will happen though because it sounds like socialism. So our lower education will continue to decline while countries who treat it as described will continue to beat us.
Actually, you're not going to have good teachers as long as there's a teacher's union that prevents them from getting fired (despite whether they're good or not). Some counties pay their teachers quite well, others don't. The fact remains, though, that bad teachers can't be fired these days (unless they've only been around for less than two years).
1. I don't see what the free market has to do with education. Personally, I believe that a school system handled by the private sector would be better than public schooling (as well as mandatory schooling). The only reason why "OMG, you need a college education" is because of the importance that government has put on public schooling. Businesses, at one time, did not give a shit about a degree.
As well, I believe in vouchers.
Free market has to do with deregulation (in a sense, you can have large government spending and no regulation on the private sector).
2. You have the same tag as churchmouse and those "idiots".
Our young teachers were affected by culture we all are so a point.
I totally agree with you about teaching. Where do we place the blame? I believe as a country we do not really value education like we once did. Schools are a babysitting service, a place to send them while we work. Our culture and belief systems have affected our schools. We value sports...and sports in schools are big. Compare the salary of a pro-athlete to even white collar workers and its not even in the same ballpark.
All the money in the world can't change our schools if we do not figure out how to fix the root problem. We spend more money on our kids in school as a nation and still are way down the list.
VOUCHERS. Let public schools compete. I guarentee you our schools would get better. I think today people think that experiences and what kids get out of school is just as valueable as what they might get in school that some subjects and how long they are studies if at all. Like history and sociology, some higher math functions. We don't stress the arts in most schools. It is a proven fact that kids who play instruments and are involved in music do better in school.
But debate, chess club etc... are out and sports clubs and playing them are in. If you compare what we offer and require our kids to take in school with that of Asian countries its as different as night and day. Asian curriculums are far more rigid and demanding. Maybe that is why American Education has fallen in world rankings.
I also think that teachers, parents can't reach a consensus on the common values and what and how it should be taught. The NEA pretty much decides what should and what should not be taught. They are a powerful group. They support the Democratic Party and need I say anymore. This union PROTECTS BAD TEACHERS, THEY ARE NOT ACCOUNTABLE.
So who is to blame? Parents, teachers our educators, government?...The fact is our schools might look good on the outside....they are failing and are in crisis on the inside and unless to start valuing education towards the top....nothing will change. Today we don't want our kids to fail so we have eliminated with word failing...from our vocabularies...also with the teachers red pen. It's all about making a kid feel good about himself....more than realizing that he is failing and needs to work harder by self sacrificing the extra curricular stuff.
Interesting article....
"Washington DC - December 28, 2005 - Asian Americans make up 4% of the U.S. population, but represent 20% of the students now attending America's elite Ivy League schools. They are not more intelligent or gifted than non-Asian students. The reason they outperform their peers in the classroom has everything to do with how they are raised."
Has nothing to do with teachers...although I agree that the unions hinder getting rid of the bad teachers...not bad but just inferior.
It has to do with putting value in education as a society. We put sports above education. Kids today...spend time playing not one but multiple sports....which includes traveling and big time commitments. You look at Asian countries.....they do not do this. The kids focus on education first. Look at Asians and their family values..........vast difference from ours.
"Asian high-school students spend significantly more time studying and doing homework, Ramey found, than any other ethnic or racial group. Averaged over the entire year (including summer vacations), the average, non-Hispanic white student spends 5.5 hours per week studying and doing homework, while Hispanic and non-Hispanic black students spend even less. In contrast, the average Asian student spends a whopping 13 hours per week. Parents' educational levels do not explain the differences, Ramey said, as these become even greater if the sample is limited to children who have at least one parent with a college degree.'
It's not just getting through schooling its excelling along the way.
Teachers should not be put on a pedestal period no one should. They should be respected for the knowledge they possess and how they teach the subject matter. How much should teachers make? They get weekends off....holidays.....many get summers.....and they get benefits, medical and dental. Should they make what doctors make? Lawyers?
Until we value education as a society...until parents start to get involved....sacrificing extra curricular activites both for themselves and their kids.....nothing will change.
Teachers do not need to be put on a pedestal. And no amount of money will make people value education. The solution to this does not come from a bank account.
It comes from the home...parents putting education at the top. Wanting children not to just pass...but succeed and excel.....not in sports, but in education. Limiting extracurricular activities...and making them focus primarily on what they are learning by putting homework first.
Asians do twice as much studying as anyone else. They don't want to just pass, they want and strive to excell in what they do. This is what is lacking in our education. The want to do better....to go beyond...to value and believe in what they are learning.
Why can't the youth of today teach themselves?? We have a communal intelligence these days, thanks to the Internet. Those that burn to understand the mysteries of life can and will enlighten themselves!
