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I don't think so. You are the actual definition of the modern fascist. You're a hard right wing Zionist Israeli who supports aggressive territorial occupation and who lies constantly about anything and everything.
Antifa Is fascist
Antifa actually stands for "anti-fascist", so you're retarded. The anti-fascists are fascists are they? Good one, you fucking dickhead. If you genuinely believe the anti-fascists are fascists then it can only be because you yourself are a fascist.
ISIS does stand for Islamic State you bloody fool. They are a fundamentalist Muslim army.
No shit. That was her point. Liberals are known for saying ISIS isn't Islamic. That was obviously the entire point. The libtard is strong in this one...
You are correct that ANTIFA is not Fascist. Actually, ANTIFA is fascistIC.
(The lower case f and the suffix actually ARE important.)
ANTIFA's attitudes and methods resemble those of the Fascisti, who also used violence to shut down expression of ideas they disliked, and who used armed gangs to squash civil liberties, nullify rule of law, and to beat and terrorize political and ideological opposition.
The ANTIFA credo is that "hate speech" (a moniker they apply to any idea they personally disagree with) is not protected by the First Amendment, and that violence is an appropriate way to counter "hate speech". This means that ANTIFA is against the free exercise of the rights guaranteed by the First Amendment of the US Constitution.
Moreover, ANTIFA insists that it is justified to beat "fascists". They (mistakenly) call anyone right of center a Fascist, which demonstrates the same misunderstanding you demonstrated when you upbraided Amarel.
ANTIFA members have attacked people they identify as Trump supporters at pro-Trump rallies and marches (in Washington, DC; in San Francisco, CA; in Berkeley, CA; in Sacramento, CA; in Portland, OR; in Seattle, WA, etc.) which means they do not even accept the results of a Constitutionally valid election. This means that ANTIFA is an enemy of both the republic and the Constitution that defines and protects it. This use of violence and negation of the rule of law that protects civil liberties also closely aligns with the ideals and methods of the Fascisti.
At least they have not force-fed castor oil to some Republican they chained to a corner lamp post.
You are correct that ANTIFA is not Fascist. Actually, ANTIFA is fascistIC.
Antifa is neither fascist nor fascistic. They are ANTI-FASCISTS. Anti-fascism is the opposite of fascism. I can't believe I am actually having this conversation.
ANTIFA's attitudes and methods resemble those of the Fascisti, who also used violence to shut down expression of ideas they disliked
Fascism is a political ideology, not a synonym for violence. By your same batshit, topsy turvy logic, the allies were fascists for attacking Hitler.
Fascists prefer lies to violence because lies give them cleaner results. A fascist will quite happily tell you that his political opposition are the fascists.
Just because people call themselves something does not indicate that is what they actually are. (For example, do you think any of our congressional "representatives" actually represent us or our interests?)
Fascism is a political ideology, not a synonym for violence.
I was not discussing Fascism at all, but rather the behavior that was typical of the Fascisti and is likewise typical of ANTIFA.
The actual behavior of ANTIFA is right in line with the behavior of the Italian Fascisti:
-Shutting down free speech.
-Meeting expressions they dislike with violence.
-Using brute force to subvert the rule of law and shut down dialog in order to gain power, and disempower their opposition.
Hence describing their behavior and tactics (not their ideology) with the general adjective fascistic, which means "characteristic of fascism or fascists."
If it helps, when I say someone's voice is "angelic", I am in no way implying that person is an angel, or believes anything an angel might conceivably believe. (I can't believe I am actually having this conversation, either.) I am merely saying the person shares particular behavior characteristics with an angel.
If you like, we can agree that the FA stands for First Amendment in ANTIFA. That would be an accurate characterization, also. Their behavior demonstrates that they are clearly against the First Amendment, or at least the free exercise thereof.
Just because people call themselves something does not indicate that is what they actually are.
They have no reason to lie about their political orientation, Marcus. Stop being rhetorical and stupid.
I was not discussing Fascism at all
You called them "Fascistic" you irrational nincompoop.
but rather the behavior that was typical of the Fascisti
Like I told you last time, fascism is not a behaviour. Fascism is a political ideology. It is a political ideology which Antifa was specifically established to oppose.
The actual behavior of ANTIFA is right in line with the behavior of the Italian Fascisti
Bullshit. If they are attacking fascists then their behaviour is "right in line" with the WW2 allies. Everything you have listed describes what the allies did to the Nazis (and the "Italian Fascisti").
You are being a fucking idiot. I thought you better than the typical Conservative buffoon with their up is down, left is right, backwards is forwards bullshit.
Insults? Really? How does a disagreement about diction devolve to insults? You are just insisting on a more specific use of a word that can be used in multiple ways. There is no need to back up quibbling with ad hominem attacks.
Did you miss the following statement in my post? "If it helps, when I say someone's voice is "angelic", I am in no way implying that person is an angel, or believes anything an angel might conceivably believe. I am merely saying the person shares a particular behavior characteristics with an angel."
The suffix -IC makes the word into an adjective which is no longer necessarily comprehensive of all characteristics of the root. One of the most notable aspects of the Fascisti was their ruthless use of violence to prevent criticism or expression of any ideas they did not like. This is the characteristic we are discussing as being common ground between the Fascisti (meaning the individuals in the organization, not their philosophy) and ANTIFA.
In terms of the use of violence to limit expression of ideas they dislike, ANTIFA is like the Fascisti. I am not comparing political philosophies, and I have not discussed the political philosophy of Fascism, only the people/organization Fascisti.
It is like calling someone a vandal. We are not saying the person is a member of a Germanic tribe, that they participated in invading Poland or Spain, or that they hold any socio-political beliefs of any of the members of that particular 2nd century Germanic tribe. We are saying the individual participates in one particular behavior for which the Vandals were known, the wanton destruction and defacement of people's property.
If they are attacking fascists then their behaviour is "right in line" with the WW2 allies.
First, ANTIFA does not primarily attack fascists, but also attacks people who believe in and promote Jeffersonian democratic republics and universal civil liberties. On multiple occasions in multiple cities they prevented from speaking or physically attacked vocal proponents of individual freedom.
Second, the WWII reference is not apt because ANTIFA is not fighting any totalitarian regime, but rather a bunch of other Americans with whom they disagree. We Americans are not at war with each other, nor should we be. We merely disagree, and the First Amendment is there to enable us all to disagree peacefully and productively, and most of all, to do so without oppressing each other.
My primary concern about any violent political group, and ANTIFA in particular (for the purposes of this forum topic) is that they use violence, as did the Fascisti, to prevent criticism, recommendations, discussion, disagreement, and peaceful public venting of frustration and disapproval.
Our First Amendment helps to guide our society and our government away from being oppressive of individual rights, even when people squander them by spouting hatred. These freedoms guide us away from actual Fascism or any other totalitarian philosophy, by encouraging debate and disagreement and diversity of opinion. The general consensus that arises from this process seems to be that we all want freedom; that particular consensus is intrinsically Anti-Fascist, yet ANTIFA regularly and predictably interferes with it in public spaces.
Surely you must see that it is ironic (and sad) that ANTIFA tries to squelch the very activity that effectively discourages actual Fascism in America.
Surely you must see that it is ironic (and sad) that ANTIFA tries to squelch the very activity that effectively discourages actual Fascism in America.
Hello m:
It's true. Nazis have a legal right to march. Yet....
I've heard my right wing friends say that the Constitution ISN'T a suicide pact, and this is one time when I concur.
IF Nazis, white supremacists, and the KKK WIN the race war they're trying to start, surely they'll KILL me and my family.. But, I'm not afraid of ANTIFA.
So, while I might decry ANTIFAS strategy, I HOPE they kick a lot of Nazi ass..
It is awful to hear racists spout their illogical vituperation, and it is depressing to listen to fools spout senseless hate, and thereby squander a right so staggeringly valuable and full of promise, and certainly there are some assholes out there who would love to shovel the two of us into ovens.
However, I think you are ignoring the main functions of extending (and enforcing) First Amendment protections to all.
1 - If we start to limit some rights for some groups, then the whole constitution falls apart because then it ceases to be a binding document. At that point there is no reason for you to assume that the rights of you and your family would not be summarily taken, and you then be imprisoned and killed, all without the trouble of a race war.
2 - Free speech is the mechanism Americans use to avoid (or at least radically reduce) violent civil unrest like the race wars and civil wars that you are concerned about.
Throughout my lifetime, racism went from "just how some people are" to an intellectual and educational failing, to its current status as an unacceptable moral evil. That happened because people were allowed to talk about it and say what they thought, and disagree, etc., so long as it was non-violent.
If the rules had not been applied equally to EVERYONE, then those people who started by saying that racism is a stupid way to sort people would never have gotten a foothold. Moreover, had one side or the other been forcibly silenced, their only recourse would have been violence.
I am the converse of you: I don't fear the Nazi's and the KKK or Black Lives Matter, or any of the similarly racist organizations, even though I would be a target of some of them. That is because they all extend the opportunity to speak disagreement. Not one of these racist groups says the first amendment does not count.
By contrast, ANTIFA seeks to silence everyone who disagrees with them, and they actually say some speech is not protected by the First Amendment. As they eliminate opposition, they would expand the sets of ideas they name as "fascist" and keep whittling away at peoples civil liberties, until there would be no acceptable ideas left but theirs, even if they had to shovel people into ovens to make it happen.
As I said earlier, at such point as we cannot express our disagreements peacefully, only violence remains.
fascist will quite happily tell you that his political opposition are the fascists.
You're finally getting it. Not only will the fascist tell you that his political opposition are the fascists, but he will tell you that he is against them, or "anti" if you will.
Basically Anti-Fascist are basically Communist, I am against both Communism and Fascism because I believe in Capitalism. Anyone whom believes in either ideology is an idiot because either forms of government are destine to fail. Anyone who believes in the new Anti-Fascists ideology that is popped up in the United States in the past 2 years is just a tool being used by the Democrat party to shut down free speech. Basically trying to establish a socialist state rather than the Republic that we have today, take away the other's right to speak freely and protest, control the media and the storyline and pushing for people to call for Revolution in the streets to free them yet as George Orwell once Said "One does not establish a dictatorship in order to safeguard a revolution; one makes the revolution in order to establish the dictatorship" This is the liberal end game. Obama tried and failed their next leader may not, do you think all the chaos Obama sparked all the civil unrest wasn't deliberate?
Well, I believe in freedom and civil rights and as such I'm against fascism. That doesn't mean ANTIFA represents me. I don't like the acronym and I'm not personally signing on to support a group unless I know fully whether I should or not.
I'm not an ANTIFA supporter, but I also don't want my argument on the 'Seig heil!' side. ANTIFA is a big disgrace to the Left. I myself am not a socialist but I'm not a white supremacist either, I'm more centre-left than anything. Back on topic, no one has the moral right to bash someone for having a different opinion. That is exactly what the Brownshirts did, which is both ironic and comedic.
Basically: I hate ANTIFA in every known way. They start needless violence and do nothing but make the far-right look more appealing. "Come join the left, we have gender quotas, diversity quotas, socialism and 101 reasons why you're a terrible person for being in a majority group. Want private property? Too bad, it's everyone's property now. Have a different opinion? Here, have a free holiday to Siberia.
As a previous user said, George Orwell has a famous quote "Power is not a means, it is an end. One does not establish a dictatorship in order to safeguard a revolution, one makes the revolution in order to establish the dictatorship."
There is nothing like the KKK and NeoNazis and vile and violent hate-mongers like ANTIFA to bring everyone else together...
We aren't living in a neutral society, but rather one which is indefatigably dominated by the right wing. Ever since industrialisation began to force radical media out of the British communications business in the 18th century (where it had previously been dominant), the western political centre has creeped further and further to the right. Groups like Antifa represent the most extreme form of resistance to fascism as an evolving cultural model.
Predictably, I disagree that the right wing is dominant.
Some of that depends on exactly how you define terms and what you use as your markers.
If you want to se a real right wing society, go to Saudi Arabia or Afghanistan, or Pakistan. Monarchies and Tribal Oligarchies, especially ones with an overlay of Sharia show you what a truly right wing society is.
The fact is that in the larger, more general political spectrum, (totalitarianism on the right and pure democracy on the left) almost all American politicians and voters are actually center left. Jeffersonian Republics kind fit in that sweet spot between the 1st and 2nd quartile on the left side of the spectrum.
When you throw in the economic dimension, we cover almost the whole economic spectrum of pure free-market capitalists to socialists, but most cluster at the center with the welfare state. I know of no politicians pushing to end social security and welfare, although many would either expand or contract the scope of welfare (which indicates how big that spread in the center is.)
The two dimensions combine to put most politicians, and I think most voters left of the center.
The socio-religious-cultural dimension is impossible to tell. Religion (and the craziness it brings) is at an all time low in the US, which tends to reduce conservatism. Drug use and legalization are on the rise, which indicates a movement left. Sexual orientation is primarily irrelevant to any but the religious crazies, so that is quite a move left.
The Television and print media seem to have moved very far left, but it is difficult to know if that means anything about how far left anyone but the media are.
If YouTube videos are any indication (and I would not vouch for whether they are), it looks like the folks on the fringes on both sides have just moved further out. Some of those people are real freaks.
Regarding how the specifically American political spectrum is spreading in the last half century, and how it is moving, I would tend to say the difference between Republicans and Democrats is getting wider. Consider that Goldwater's 1964 platform and Kennedy's 1960 platform are remarkably similar.
It seems to me that the Republican party has moved to the left since 1960, especially in terms of supporting social welfare programs, and acceptance of looser social mores.
The Democratic party has moved very far left since 1960. Consider that JFK's platform and that of Ronald Reagan were very similar, but Obama's platform was vastly further left than JFK's, and Kennedy would have denounced Bernie Sanders platform as unacceptably (possibly treasonously) leftist.
This general shift left means that our government has moved even further left from a left of center starting point (as a welfare state-Democratic Republic).
If we accept that racism is a right wing thing (although I don't think it actually correlates that way) then racism is generally down (less popular?) from almost any time before Obama. The rise of racist groups like Black Lives Matter, and the counter-reaction of increased White racism on the fringe as a response to BLM booing every time someone said that all lives matter, or that brown and white lives matter, too.
However, I do not tend to think people being assholes is actually a function of their politics. Besides, I can never decide where on the political spectrum to put Nazis. They are socialists, so that puts them on the economic left, but they tend to favor weirdly strict laws which puts them politically right of center. I have never heard a (neo) Nazi that favored totalitarian government--they all say they want representative government, but they would never get any votes because everybody hates them.
Regardless,
We are definitely not in a society indefatigably dominated by the right wing.
This is a government page from Germany where they are officially categorised as a terrorist: a threat to the freedoms guaranteed by the German constitution.
Does that mean that if two of your enemies are enemies of each other, then they are both your friends?
What happened in Charlottesville this past weekend illustrates the problem. There were 2 racist groups (the KKK & Co and Black Lives Matter) and the fascistic group (ANTIFA), none of whom seem to value equal treatment under the law, freedom of speech, or tolerance.
All these people showed up armed and ready to damage each other, and that is what they did. I am against violence, even violence against violent, intolerant, & destructive racists and fascists, but I have to say that part of me was happy that the cops did not intervene, but rather let them all beat the crap out of each other.
My schadenfreude at their violent conflict and pain are a pretty good indicator that deep in my psyche, none of these dillholes were being my friend by hurting my enemies.
The problem with your logic is they attack everyone else too, and in America have used violence to try and shut down the speeches of women, foreigners, immigrants and gay people.
I feel schadenfreude upon hearing of people beating racists like the KKK and Black Lives Matter, and fascistic a$$holes like ANTIFA.
By the same token, we need to protect people's ability to peacefully express their ideas no matter how repugnant those ideas may be. Otherwise the republic is doomed.
I think this internal conflict explains why the Charlottesville police did not stop the violence. They probably figured that ALL those dickheads deserved a beating, and that it was expedient to let them beat each other.
If they are violently attacking right wing white supremists or militia groups, then I'm all for 'em..
Look.. I see some troubled times ahead. The last time my people sat around, 6 million of 'em were murdered... This time, I'm gonna be ahead of the game..
You do know, doncha, that with the advent of social media, the white supremacists who showed their faces in Charlottsville are being TRACKED DOWN?? What makes you think the bongos won't find you??? Now, who's the silly one?
Plus, a rape gang going after white supremacists is more delicious than you can imagine..
You show such a callous, disgusting disregard for human life that I have noted in people before: The Schutzstaffel. That's right. You're just about as hateful and immoral as the black coats themselves. I hope your moral compass shifts eventually.
So you support a group that has targeted gays and Jews simply because in their mass hate for all of humanity, they just so happen to hate white supremacists too...
White supremacists are few in numbers and rarely manifest violence or even pop their nasty heads out. ANTIFA has vast membership and manifests violence all the time, and sometimes targeted people who were Jews.
Then who's truly in the wrong, them or you? After all, you would be the one who incited the violence in the first place. You would be the one who provoked them, so, in any case, they would be in the right (in more than one way).
When a violent, fascist or racist or anti-Semitic group comes into your peaceful town, walks down your streets carrying torches shouting vile epithets about the people who live there ... peacefully, .... and say you must give up YOUR streets for THEIR kind because they hate you or your friends or neighbors, because they are the wrong race or creed, what do you expect? People to put their hands in their pockets and say "You're just wrong" and let it go at that??
THAT would certainly embolden them (like Trumps words), and they would go town after town until they took over the country! They HAVE to be stopped!
Freedom of speech is NOT freedom of hate!
Apparently, WinstonC, you "hold a different point of view", and sympathize with those who want Fascism!? Freedom of hate is NOT in the Constitution, and if you side with their right to spread their hate you are not anti-fascist! What THEY were doing is NOT freedom of speech, and what you are defending IS anti-American.
When a violent, fascist or racist or anti-Semitic group comes into your peaceful town, walks down your streets carrying torches shouting vile epithets about the people who live there ... peacefully, .... and say you must give up YOUR streets for THEIR kind because they hate you or your friends or neighbors, because they are the wrong race or creed, what do you expect? People to put their hands in their pockets and say "You're just wrong" and let it go at that??
Well, they ignored their idiotic marches for a century without doing anything about it, so what changed? Oh yeah, the tolerant left decided that anyone they disagree with must be killed, shouted down, or met in the streets like animals. The KKK are vile. ANTIFA makes the KKK look like alter boys. The left will justify anything as long as they win in the end.
Racism in all its incarnations is illogical, vile and destructive, but for the last half century the racists have not done anything to try to silence those who say that racism is illogical, vile, and destructive. In fact, very few racists ever admit to being racist; hell, some don't even recognize that they are.
By contrast, ANTIFA, whose so-called "philosophy" is also illogical, vile, and destructive uses violence to try to silence everyone whose ideas they dislike. They are not just against Fascism. They are against free expression. They are not just against tolerant and peaceful coexistence with people who disagree with them; they are against the existence anywhere of people who disagree with them.
