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Debate Info

3
7
Religious VS Not Religious Variant Religious Beliefs
Debate Score:10
Arguments:16
Total Votes:10
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 Religious VS Not Religious (2)
 
 Variant Religious Beliefs (7)

Debate Creator

atypican(4877) pic



The more intelligent position concerning religion

I think the smarter view is that everyone is religious in variant ways, rather than thinking some people are religious and others aren't.

Religious VS Not Religious

Side Score: 3
VS.

Variant Religious Beliefs

Side Score: 7
2 points

A realistic person is not religious. If you are lost and on your way to Hell, and you know it, you are being realistic. If your sins are forgiven, having been paid for by God's own blood in Jesus Christ who conquered death offering forgiveness to all who believe on Him and ask God in Jesus' name to forgive them, and you have received the Lord Jesus Christ as your Savior in reality, you are being realistic having admitted that you deserve to die and burn in Hell and now knowing God's mercy.

Religious people do, say, or think whatever they can to make themselves feel like they have the right to exist outside of Hell, like atheists. Religion is attempting to justify one's existence outside of Hell. Reality is admitting we deserve to die and burn in Hell.

Side: Religious VS Not Religious
Nathanduclos(43) Disputed
1 point

Let’s examine your claim.

p1, you claim - A realistic person is not religious. If you are lost and on your way to Hell, and you know it, you are being realistic.

p1.1 - If god can see the future and laid out which universe to create, then god is sending me to hell. HE choose which universe would find me here and exercise reason and logic to come to a conclusion that is obviously not in his favor.

p1.2 - Sending people to hell for lack of a belief is not reasonable or justice. Eternal punishment for a finite crime is morally bankrupt.

p1.3 - A mobster saying 'it would be extremely sad if something happened to your shop, just donate some time and effort, do what i say and if anyone asks tell them I’m great and awesome and innocent." is a bully at best, a criminal at worst. However if god says 'it would be externally sad if you spend eternity in hell, just donate some time and effort, do what i say and if anyone asks tell them im great and awesome and innocent." is somehow different.

p1.4 - If your lost and on you way to hell and you know it, your are being realistic. However can you demonstrate you are lost? Can you demonstrate hell? Can you show that your god is the right god to avoid hell? If you can not, are you not being irrational? And can you do so without name calling, or making silly statement about straw man arguments?

p2 - you claim - If your sins are forgiven, having been paid for by God's own blood in Jesus Christ who conquered death offering forgiveness to all who believe on Him and ask God in Jesus' name to forgive them, and you have received the Lord Jesus Christ as your Savior in reality, you are being realistic having admitted that you deserve to die and burn in Hell and now knowing God's mercy.

p2.1 - I love run on sentence. I’m not the only one.

p2.2 - Please define sin.

p2.3 - It morally bankrupt to pay for someone else’s sin, it’s called sin substitution and a horrible thing to practice or believe in.

Example - I assault someone. While someone could go to jail for my crime, the responsibility is mine. No one can take that from me, and only the victim can forgive me.

Example from you. I assault someone. While someone could go to jail for my crime, the responsibility is not mine. My sins are forgiven, paid for Jesus dying.

Your system of morals is not

p2.4 - Again Eternal punishment for a finite crime is not only not mercy, its the opposite as stated before. Also it’s petty, as the reason for punishment is based on not believing something without rational evidence.

p2.5 - The bible supports slavery (Exodus 21:2-6, Exodus 21:7-11, Ephesians 6:5 NLT), Even though it never repudiates those actions, it never says slavery is a sin. So is it a sin now? If not, was it a sin when it was biblically endorsed? The problem with sin, unless you’re in the position of being pro slavery, how do you reconcile a book that advocates slavery?

p3 - you claim - Religious people do, say, or think whatever they can to make themselves feel like they have the right to exist outside of Hell, like atheists.

p3.1 - I don’t believe in hell. You do. Most atheist do not believe hell. Your statement is non-sensicle. I do good for the sake of good, not because of an external reward. If there was a reward, im not doing ti for the sake of good.

P3.2 – You don’t belief in Muslim version of hell, you don’t do things to avoid it? So why are you accusing me of something you yourself don’t believe about other religions.

P3.3 – you can no do good if you believe in heaven.

Example: you and I see a child to get run over. If I run out and save the child, I risk everything for saving the child with no reward. A good act. If you run out to save the child, you risk only a few years on a planet and go to your eternal reward early. You risked nothing and get paid for it, that’s not good, its negotiation for a reward.

You cannot be religious and believe in heaven and do good deeds. The moment you concede you can do something good with no reward, you concede there is no heaven.

P4 - you claim - Religion is attempting to justify one's existence outside of Hell. Reality is admitting we deserve to die and burn in Hell.

p4.1 - Are you worried about Muslim Hell, or Bahi Hell, or Flying speagetti hell? IF you think one hell exist's and the others are wrong you, can you demonstrate in a meaningful, rational way your hell exists?

p4.2 - Truth is that which conforms to reality. Reality is the shared existed we experience. Can you show me that your perception of reality is true?

p4.3 - My neighbor believes he was captured by aliens. HE is convinced of this. Is it reasonable to believe him with not ability to show the null hypothesis or evidence or rational reasons. IF it’s not accept to believe that on faith, why should i believe you?

The only reasonable response when someone says,

do you believe in god?

Is to ask ‘can you define you god’ for clarity and understanding. See if it’s logically consistent and rational as a definition. Then ask for demonstrable and reasonable proof. And until you can provide that, the only reasonable and rational answer is ‘I don’t know if your god exists or not, but at this time its irrational to believe in his existence at this time.” And further ‘with no reasonable evidence why do you believe something for irrational reasons.”

I would have responded in other threads, but you banned me from a discussion after demanding that I answer you (very uncool).

Side: Variant Religious Beliefs
NowASaint(1388) Clarified
1 point

Your stuff is pretty much a waste of time, don't expect me to read half of it...I did pick out this piece of your ramble as it has some truth in it which maybe you can build on; maybe enough truth to cause you to question the lies you have been told and are using in your effort to keep the truth away from you.

Example: you and I see a child to get run over. If I run out and save the child, I risk everything for saving the child with no reward. A good act. If you run out to save the child, you risk only a few years on a planet and go to your eternal reward early. You risked nothing and get paid for it, that’s not good, its negotiation for a reward.

"....you and I see a child to get run over. If I run out and save the child, I risk everything for saving the child with no reward. A good act. If you run out to save the child, you risk only a few years on a planet and go to your eternal reward early. You risked nothing and get paid for it, that’s not good, its negotiation for a reward.

You cannot be religious and believe in heaven and do good deeds. The moment you concede you can do something good with no reward, you concede there is no heaven.

Okay, to start with, you are saying that if I put my life on the line to try to rescue a child in danger, it is not a good thing, but if you put your life in danger to try to rescue a child, it is a good thing? Who do you care about, yourself of the child? Are you going to stand there and boo at me if I rescue a child? I assume you are not going to thank God that I was there to rescue the child, and I really don't care about your opinion. If I see a rescue needs to be done and I think I have a good chance of doing it myself I am going to do it. Are you jealous if I am rewarded for what I do? Boo hoo for you. If you rescue the child, good for you and good for the child. I do believe that your punishment in Hell will be less due to your act of mercy if your sins are not forgiven.

You can do something good with no reward other than a slightly lesser punishment in Hell......for you there is no Heaven, as you stand in defiance of God and He won't let you into Heaven. You would only be a defilement in Heaven and it's not going to happen. God Himself shed His blood to pay for your sins, to cover your sins, but you are saying no to Him and trying to cover yourself by smearing Him. All you are doing is heaping up His wrath against you and if you wont' stop He will pour it out on you and you will find yourself unable to get out of the fire of Hell, dying forever in your sin.

If you want your sins to be covered so you can be with God in Heaven, you have to believe on His Son, you have to receive His Son as your Savior, you have to concede that it is you who deserves to be crucified, you have to believe He took your place and paid your price so that by Him who conquered death and came out of the tomb alive, you can be forgiven if you will say sorry for all of your sins and sinning and in His name as God to forgive you and save you from Hell. You don't have to believe, you don't have to be saved, you can go your own way all the way to Hell if you want to, and if you don't want to go to Hell but you want to go your own way all the way, you are going to Hell if you like it or not and you are not going to like it if you won't let God save you.

Side: Religious VS Not Religious
NowASaint(1388) Clarified
1 point

God is not sending you to Hell, God is giving you time outside of Hell desiring that you come to Him humbly asking Him to save you and keep you forever in Heaven where you can enjoy your existence and honor your Creator. You are standing in defiance of God with a chip on your shoulder daring Him to end your time and leave you in Hell. That chip on your shoulder is going to stay on you forever because you want it there. You are sending yourself to Hell while you try to tell yourself it can't be that bad for you. Who are you trying to fool? You love your sin and want to keep on being what you are and doing what you do, you do not want God to be your Master, so you are getting what you have earned. That can and will change if you will repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, but you won't, will you? I don't think so and I'm not going to waste too much time with you.

Side: Religious VS Not Religious

I would agree with that. Buddhists are extremely religious, but don't claim any theistic god. Everyone is religious and has deep beliefs that they do not want challenged, including Atheists, Christians, etc.

Side: Variant Religious Beliefs
1 point

I think this post is clearer and doesn't lose any meaning if you rephrase it as "everyone has their own belief systems".

Side: Variant Religious Beliefs
Nathanduclos(43) Disputed
1 point

I lack a belief system. I have no positive claim about theism or religion, and i do not have a negative claim. I have no claim. So i can not have a system of beliefs in regards to religion beyond "i dont know' which is not a system of beliefs. . . ..

Side: Religious VS Not Religious
WinstonC(1117) Disputed
1 point

To Quote the OP "I think the smarter view is that everyone is religious in variant ways, rather than thinking some people are religious and others aren't."

Why do you assume I'm talking about atheism? I'm talking about the fact that everyone holds belief systems (which they do). Beliefs are defined as "Something one accepts as true or real; a firmly held opinion"(source 1). These beliefs can form systems: for instance one may believe that socialism is a better idea than capitalism. This is underpinned by other beliefs, such as the belief that control of the means of production by the workers or government will result in higher wages.

Sources:

(1) https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/belief

Side: Variant Religious Beliefs
1 point

Yes, I think that is a sound and reasonable position. To each their own. A certain belief may be right for one person and not followed by another, that doesn't make it less right or more right, just makes life interesting.

Side: Variant Religious Beliefs