The ultimate 9/11 conspiracy theory debate!
Over the last several weeks I have had a number of people describe their belief that the 9/11 World Trade Center attacks and subsequent destruction was really a conspiracy, not a terrorist action.
I have not formed an opinion yet, but some of what I have heard makes me want to dig into this more.
Would you please help by posting all of the content you can find for conspiracy theory vs. terrorist action? Don’t forget to support your arguments with links to your references.
Please help me compile the ultimate fact based debate on this theory!
Side Score: 28
Side Score: 53
The way I see it, is that there are FACTS about the events on that day; also, leading up to, and after the events of the tragedy that HAVE NOT been exposed and pressed to the public.
For example, there are eyewitness accounts of "men in black suits with black sunglasses, driving in black SUVs with black tinted windows, driving to and from various world trade centers before and after the events took place.
In one instance, an employee from one of the world trade centers ("3" I believe) said right before (about 10 to 20 minutes) the building went down, a man he didn't recognize told him to evacuate immediately because the world trade center was going to collapse. And this is the building that was said to have been hit by "debris" from the 2 twin towers; their cause of why that building collapsed. STRANGE much?
Another example, in both of the 2 twin towers, there are giant "rod beams" (as I call them) that are about 2 feet wide by like the whole twin tower long. Apparently, several of these rod beams that were still standing seemed to be sliced at an angle; this "indicates controlled demolition". Apparently, several scientists claim that there was thermite evidence present throughout their findings on rubble and debris. STRANGE much?
Continuing on with the "controlled demolition".. apparently objects fall at a certain rate in free fall. At the top of my head I cannot think of the forumla, however, after several scientists have done their thing, they've realized that the two twin towers collapsed at "nearly free fall" speed, which "indicated controlled demolition."
Another example, several people that survived and were the last ones out the buildings (twin towers) literally minutes before it collapsed said they had heard "booms and the building shook", before they made their way out of the building. Moments later the building comes crashing down, luckily for them they survived these horrible events.
Also, apparently authorities "knew" it was "terrorists" because they found several passports like miles away from the "zero zone" completely intact, or the twin towers proximity. There are surveillance videos of the "terrorists" in the airport, apparently providing sufficient proof that these people were in fact on the planes and perhaps piloting the planes and taking them over.
This "indicates" that perhaps, these "terrorists" were "allowed" to carry out such a horrible action.
Apparently, there is a "manual and training exercise manual" to "what we would train for IF the twin towers were to be attacked", if i remember correctly it was made in 1995 or 1998, something around there. So this "indicates" that the United States already had a "plan of action" to "just in case situations".
Also, apparently on the days before and after 9/11, there were "war games and training exercises for terrorism" of the air force; so when the airport towers and what not called in to the airlines and these airlines would say "we've got taken over", there apparently were moments of "Exercise or real-life?", delaying the time of when "they - the government" could send help from nearby aircrafts. This all causing many problems that day.
These are basically the main points hit, however there are several more that right now I care not to indulge into. I've got sources (google) from online documentaries, various documents, various photos, the whole shibang. It's all there, just gotta look for it, but it's everywhere.
So in short, I think there are a lot of facts that went down before, during, and after that horrible day that the government has tried to "hide", or also have not fully come clean with everything they've got and various independent resources have found, ect. It's very bizarre. Basically, even with certain scientists and people saying "Mmm, we're not so sure it went down exactly like you say it did." The government will say "It was the terrorists and that's it!"
There is more than what meets the eye, right?
The thing is, every one of these things has dozens of possible explanations and if you (the investigator) steer each one towards a conspiracy theory, your not being "fair" to the big picture and real answer. Lets take the "men in black suits case". Possible explanations:
- They were just the regular security guys that are there every day but you never pay attention to their presence normally
- A politician was in the area
- A pop star was in the area
- There was a security convention going on
- They were part of a flash mob
- They new about the planes because the FAA said "we have a problem" not because of a conspiracy
Any one of these options are just as likely as the conspiracy theory, and many of them seem more likely to me. Go through each item in your list and come up with all the possible options (keep in mind that the conspiracy option is "out there" so the bar is low). When you do this it becomes clear that in fact the conspiracy theory does not rank very high on the "likely reason" list for any of these sub-events. When taken all together the conspiracy theory option is probably last on the list of explanations for 9/11.
It's like a Bigfoot video. Is it more likely that it's Bigfoot or a hoax? Anyone that starts off with "It's Bigfoot, prove me wrong" is not being intellectually honest given what we know about our environment and the animals in it. You must start with "It's a hoax, a man, a bear, prove it's Bigfoot".
Side: Terrorist Action
You've used the "men in black suits" example... and really, it's the weakest example for "conspiracy theorists"... I'm just putting out there information that is believe by many people. And they're not "conspiracy theorists" because of the "men in black suites".... What about the other examples? The "rod beams", the "thermite" they found, the "cut in a upper left to lower right fashion", the "survivors in the towers that heard explosions from the basement moments before the towers collapsed"?
Again, I don't discount any of your "theories on the men in black suites, however, like I said, you've used one of the weakest, if not the weakest, claims of a conspiracy theorist...
The whole thing about advancing government agenda is a reasonable argument, yet if the goal was to regress individual liberty and lower the population, why go through such trouble? The government is the only entity with legal use of force, so there is nothing deferring them from doing as what officials want to do.
They could simply send the Army in on its own people.
Side: Terrorist Action
Yes but that would be clear and obvious. They have America believing terrorist attacked the towers, so they keep telling that to their citizens, sending a army to commit mass-genocide would be a clear approach, blaming the al-qaeda is their strategy, (my belief).
Side: Terrorist Action
First of all it seems that nobody has the open mind and humility to just flat out say "I don't know!"
I don't know what happened but I do know that a commercial airplane didn't make that tiny hole in the pentagon with no plane wreckage. And I do NOT know how building seven came down.. or why it came down. I don't know why people don't talk about how a fireman found a dead body in a closet in the WTC, I don't know why nobody cares about scientific proof that there was a substance only found in bomb material found in the wreckage.
What I do know is that a conspiracy wouldn't be hard to pull off because whenever people hear the word "conspiracy" a logical part of their brain seems to shutdown because it's simply unthinkable. It's been psychologically proven that logic doesn't happen much when people here things they don't want to hear, such as hearing things about the political candidates they support.
It's the boy who cried wolf. The word conspiracy has this sort of culture surrounding it. Only crazy people believe in them right? So what if a conspiracy really did happen?? It would just be another "conspiracy."
A= conspiracy, therefore A= crazy talk
This is the norm that has been established.
Let's say it is some kind of conspiracy, whoever did it knew that there would be a couple of documentaries made and a few websites devoted to "uncovering the truth." They know. They don't care because there's always a documentary, there's always a website. They know that most people wont wanna talk about it.
Seriously, how could anyone actually believe that the UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT destroyed the Twin Towers.
If you believe the government was behind 9/11, it is time for you to get your head checked because the government hasn't never ever successfully completed any operation without messing it up.
If the federal government can't accurately know whether someone is dead or not, then the 9/11 government conspiracy is hogwash. Dead
When the government wrongly declares 14,000 people dead, there is something really bad about your effectiveness and efficiency. Dead
The government is stupid enough not able to pay social security checks or know who is living or dead, so the idea that the federal government could put something together elaborate as an 9/11 conspiracy is laughable.
Side: Terrorist Action
"the conspiracy would spread like wild fire"
No matter what side you're on you have to admit this is kind of ironic. It wouldn't spread like wildfire because of the whole "there's no way" argument that people like yourself support by default. Because of what you are doing right now it wouldn't spread.
You're pouring water on a fire and saying that if it was a real fire it would spread.
Like I said there's always going to be a "conspiracy theory" about every major event in history so if one were to ever happen it would just go un noticed would it not?? Sure there'd be a few websites and documentaries but it doesn't matter.
I'm not one who is saying anything for certain. But there's lots of things that are weird and that don't add up. Why does this have to be black and white. People are either saying the government did it or no way the government did it. Why can't we just take a step back and look at this stuff??
first off I want to say your argument is really funny, and not in a "im laughing at you way" but just you're right our government is just shit basically! However i disagree because of a few facts.
1) Several Countries for months sent warning saying Al Queda was planning an attack
2) With the hit on the Pentagon they said "bodies were found" but not airplane parts. their reasoning: the jet fuel melted the metal
3) The largest piece of anything not from the building was a half of a dialing pad from a phone everything else was melted EXCEPT luckily a terrorist's passport
4)the buildings were made PURPOSELY to withstand a hit from a 747 with out falling. they made it that way because of its height
5)bombs went off before the plane hit
6) the building fell in a pancake fashion which is known by anyone who deals with construction is how most construction workers deal with demolition.
7) Tower 3 was never hit but 3 hours later fell
8) the plane that hit in the field is the only plane crash that has ever made an imprint like that
9) luggage and debris from the Penn Plane crash was found 6 miles away from the crash
10) scientifically, for the towers to fall for the reason the government said the beams holding up the building would still be standing even after
11) the only way for the towers to free fall the way they did were for the beams to be cut at an angle which ruble shows what was left they were
12) the only way to cut through those beams is with a certain temp. not even jet fuel could reach.
13) after the plane hit the pentagon officials ran to pick up pieces and they covered the lawn with gravel seizes all forensic investigations
14) all cameras showing when the plane hit were confiscated
15) no one will release a final report on any of the attacks
16)the Bush administration was having breakfast with Bin laden's brother the morning of 9/11
nothing adds up
All of the conspiracy arguments are kinda weak, to be honest. A lot of them contradict basic physics. I have no reason to believe it was a conspiracy, so I'll side with "raging incompetence on behalf of the federal government allowing terrorists to strike".
Viz, terrorist action.
Side: Terrorist Action
One of the main problems I have with the conspiracy theory crowed in general is the amount of time and energy they will expend trying to expose the conspiracy vs any other possible explanation. If you applied that same time and energy to the non conspiracy theory you would have much more evidence that it was not a conspiracy. Conspiracy theorists (in these extreme cases) want there to be a conspiracy because it validates their belief system. Because of this bias, every twist and turn in the "investigative process", turns in favor of the conspiracy instead of the myriad of other options that are often more likely, easier to prove, etc. Instead of saying "Whats the most likely explanation for X?" (where X is some small detail in a larger events) they say "How could X be explained by a conspiracy?". Once your mind has done this enough times, it starts to become sub conscious. If a hammer is your favorite tool, everything problem starts to look like a nail!
Side: Terrorist Action
WHY WOULD ANYONE EVER BELIEVE THAT IT WAS SOMETHING THE UNITED STATES DID!!!! THIS WAS A NATIONAL DISASTER!!!! SO MANY PEOPLE DIED FROM 9/11!!!!!! THE WORLD TRADE CENTER WAS ONE OF THE MOST POWERFUL BUILDINGS IN THIS NATION!!!!!! WHY WOULD THEIR EVER BE A CONSPIRACY TO DESTROY THE WORLD TRADE CENTERS, NOT MENTION TRY TO DESTROY THE WHITE HOUSE, AND THEN STILL DO SOME DAMAGE TO THE PENTAGON?!?!?!?!? AND THEN WHAT ABOUT ALL OF THE PEOPLE THAT DIED IN THOSE PLANES THAT WERE BEING USED AS GIANT BOMBS!!!!! WHY WOULD ANYONE EVER THINK ANYTHING LIKE THIS?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?
Side: Terrorist Action
Ah, you must be the culprit to whom "down voted" all of the left side, eh?
Nice one, even if it wasn't you, you've got CAPS LOCK on an it's noisy and noticeable.
Not everything that our government tells us is truth. How's that for starters? Perhaps you're blinded by the governmental ideals that you're so leaning towards "nah, the government can't do that, or that, or that." Let's just say that 9/11 is one huge tragedy that not all information leading to, on, and after those unfortunate and horrible events, has been disclosed to the public. In fact, any time any independent observer tries to ask questions or research they basically get told the same things you just CAPS LOCKED about. Go figure.
Well first off, no I did not down vote the entire side, that is just plain bitchy.
I'm not saying that everything the government is saying is the truth, that is just plain obvious, and I'm saying that all of the details of 9/11 were given to the public. No, in fact, I believe that this government has gone to shit, and is full of stupid, arrogant capitalists. Which is exactly why I believe that they couldn't have done something so tragic. All they really care about is the money, so when it comes to crashing into the World Trade Center, that can only be millions of dollars lost.
And I am sorry about the caps lock..
Side: Terrorist Action