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Debate Score:42
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US Falls if Christian values fall

I heard Preger say that “if Judeao-Christian values fall apart - then America soon will fall”. Look, there are non- Judeao/Christian society that have existed just fine for thousands of years!  It’s a very naive and narrow vision mindset- primitive thought.
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4 points

America is going to fall and the only people who don't understand this are Americans. It is quite honestly a disgusting country founded on bullshit, hypocrisy, self-interest and lies. In the far flung future, if we ever reach that far, I absolutely guarantee you that people will look at the US with shame. They will wonder how humanity was ever so wide-eyed and gullible.

1 point

America is going to fall and the only people who don't understand this are Americans. It is quite honestly a disgusting country founded on bullshit, hypocrisy, self-interest and lies

1)You've probably never been here and have no clue what you are even talking about.

2)Great Britain is the king of imperialism and keeping minorities out.

NicolasCage(506) Disputed
1 point

I don't think America is going to "fall", but it's definitely going to receive a slap in the face eventually, as all countries do. America hasn't been around long enough to develop fully; it still has centuries of growth to go before realising it's not the centre of the universe.

I absolutely guarantee you that people will look at the US with shame.

"Will" look at the US with shame? We already do!

NowASaint(1388) Clarified
1 point

If your attitude remains the same, you may live long enough to see the world dictator take power, the Anti-Christ, before you end up in the fire of Hell.

xMathFanx(1749) Disputed
1 point

@Nomenclature

Would you stop using all of these alternative accounts or at least have the decency to identify yourself?

If you simply used alternative names for "fun" & acknowledged your roots (e.g. main account(s)) then this wouldn't be a problem

xMathFanx(1749) Clarified
1 point

@Nomenclature

It is quite honestly a disgusting country founded on bullshit, hypocrisy, self-interest and lies.

There is certainly a lot of truth to this--However, as compared to what?

Britain is not exactly the "White Knights" they have imagined themselves to be. Simply look at European history--it is largely appalling though with some saving graces (which is important). Where do you think America/American's roots of behavior/ideology comes from?

Also, need not look further than elsewhere in the World to see how "backward" other societies are as well (in many respects). Humanity, as a whole, has very long way to go indeed before issues such as you listed are all but obsolete

3 points

While I don't think it will fall, I do think things will change. America isn't based solely on Christian values.

mrcatsam(544) Clarified
1 point

Yes. Whatever happened to your First Amendment? Review the Establishment Clause, I believe it's called?

2 points

Ahem, for half a century we've been told pretty much every year we're going to hell in a handbasket because we're all such sinners in the US. Yet we're still here. Ironically, our biggest F-ups have come in the last year when Pence and the faux-Christian Trump came into power. So apparently the US falls if Christian values entrench.

marcusmoon(578) Disputed
2 points

Ahem, for half a century we've been told pretty much every year we're going to hell in a handbasket because we're all such sinners in the US. Yet we're still here.

I think you are conflating morals with values, and both with a particular religion.

That is like conflating the Rocky movies with the values of courage and perseverance. Myriad stories purvey courage and perseverance (e.g., Hercules, the Arthurian quest for the Holy Grail, the Mahabharata, etc., ad infinitum.)

Religion is not a necessary condition to value honesty, love, or forgiveness. There are lots of us agnostics and atheists who value the exact same things Christians value.

The prompt is not phrased to require Christian belief, but rather the values that underlie Christianity.

I have a hard time envisioning ANY society that can long continue without honesty, forgiveness, and respect for parents, to pick a few. These are Christian values, but they are not only transmitted through Christianity.

1 point

Ahem, for half a century we've been told pretty much every year we're going to hell in a handbasket

We are. Since 9/11 have you looked around? Guess not.

1 point

because we're all such sinners in the US.

Are we not? What superhuman people are you hanging out with?

1 point

Yet we're still here.

Yep, we're still here post 9/11, claiming everyone is a Nazi or a Communist.

1 point

Ironically, our biggest F-ups have come in the last year when Pence and the faux-Christian Trump came into power.

Of course you can't name these f-ups, and must have missed the housing crisis of Bush, the weapons of mass destruction debacle, the tanking of Obamacare, $20 trillion in debt, premiums through the roof, penalties for not having insurance, the big banks bailout, Chinagate, Whitewater, Fast and Furious, Benghazi, the manifestation of ISIS, 9/11, the ousting of Sadaam, Mobarek and Gaddafi, allowing Russia to take over Syria and bomb it into oblivion, the European refugee crisis, the invasion of crimea, the leaving behind of thousands of military grade weapons and vehicles later used by ISIS, the Clinton Foundation crime sindicate, the Hillary email scandal....and on and on and on...

Are you on a whole different planet Grenache? Imagine if any of that was on Trump's resume...he'd have been impeached months ago...

So apparently the US falls if Christian values entrench

Aah...selective non-moderate and seemingly partisan leftist memory loss. You must have forgotten that every previous President claimed to be a Christian, including the last 3 Democrat Presidents, including Jimmy Carter, Bill Clinton, and Barack Obama. So that's how that works...

FromWithin(7144) Disputed
-1 points

The ultra Liberal once again spews lies.

I guess record numbers of people on food stamps is a great sign for America.

I guess record numbers of broken families with children not being raised by their parents is a great sign for Amerca.

I guess No Restriction abortions of viable babies, as well as testing and killing viable Special Need's babies for merely being diverse, is not another example of America's Progressive debauchery.

I guess record numbers of parents abandoning their children for tax payers to support, is not a sign of America's fall.

Record numbers of people living together rather than marriage.

As goes our family unit, there goes America.

2 points

Christian values does not necessarily mean Christianity. Christian values include honesty, accountability, self-control, kindness, forgiveness, in general,and the Ten Commandments. With the exception of the first three commandments, these are compatible with the vast majority of people's value systems.

Basically, if all these values are gone, most of what holds any society together are gone.

NicolasCage(506) Disputed
1 point

Those are also Buddhist values. Does that mean the US falls if Buddhist values fall, too?

Things such as honesty, kindness, and not murdering people are not strictly Christian values, they're values which Christianity adopted when it was written that existed long before any Abrahamic religion.

So, you are correct by saying society falls if Christian values fall, but it's silly to equate those values solely with Christianity (which I'm not saying you specifically are doing, just making a broad point) and is as baseless an argument/claim as saying "the US falls if Hindu/Buddhist/Muslim/Jewish/LaVeyan Satanist values fall".

marcusmoon(578) Clarified
1 point

Those are also Buddhist values. Does that mean the US falls if Buddhist values fall, too?

Yep

...So, you are correct by saying society falls if Christian values fall, but it's silly to equate those values solely with Christianity (which I'm not saying you specifically are doing, just making a broad point)

Yep.

That was my point. The designation of these particular values as Christian is a red herring.

...and is as baseless an argument/claim as saying "the US falls if Hindu/ Buddhist/ Muslim/ Jewish/ LaVeyan Satanist values fall".

The values being discussed under the name Christian values could be discussed under many names, and it would be the case, regardless of the moniker, that no society can stand without them.

Doubtless, that is why they are the values common to all the surviving religions. No society that did not include these basic values could survive for long.

2 points

If Christian values fall, the United States won't fall. For one, not everyone is Christian. Also, many of the values held by Christians are values held by everyone - or at least they should be. So yeah, America wouldn't fall, not by a long shot.

1 point

America's values will still be here to fall back on. Most "Christian values" are based on common sense, so as long as we don't lose that we'll be fine. As John Adams said: "The American government is, in NO sense, based on the Christian religion." We'll do fine. If we stick to "the American way" we can stand to lose a few of those outdated, out-science "Christian values" ... the ancient ones that Christians , like Muslims, wont throw out when they're proven wrong.

1 point

As John Adams said: "The American government is, in NO sense, based on the Christian religion.

And then every President and court witness in American history thereafter, swore on a Bible...

And when they put "In God we trust" on all of our currency, they must have meant the God of Spinoza...

"Rights endowed by our creator" must have meant... ---insert some liberal bs lie here---

1 point

I went to court several times to testify- I don’t swear on that Joo book and never have! They can’t make u

AlofRI(2650) Disputed
1 point

You are wrong. Teddy Roosevelt, a Republican, swore on The Constitution, not the Bible (just one example). In court ANYONE can do the same. I'm sure that some would rather, but, possibly having a pious Judge, they would give themselves a disadvantage.

"In God We Trust" wasn't on our money until sometime in the 30's, I believe .. maybe 20's. We did well and survived long before that. Taking it back off would still be a contentious undertaking even though many, like myself, feel it is un-Constitutional.

"endowed by our creator" leaves open whatever one considers as THEIR creator, whether it be a god (ANY god) OR their parents. That IS Constitutional. I am appalled that one like yourself feels HE knows more about the Constitution and the original aim of it, than John Adams. You have an ego the size of Donald Trump.

1 point

we can stand to lose a few of those outdated, out-science "Christian values"

Such as?

NicolasCage(506) Disputed
1 point

Never thought I'd agree with bronto (though I think we agree for different reasons), but to say that America and its government has no basis on the Christian religion is ludicrous.

America attempts to push this narrative of being a "secular country, with a complete separation of Church and State", yet you literally have "IN GOD WE TRUST" plastered all over your currency, and still ask people to swear on the Bible in court? (I realise there's no obligation to, but the fact that you have to ask the court to not swear on the Bible, rather than having to ask to swear on the Bible is implication enough.)

That said, I don't think America will fall if Christian values are suddenly abolished, because as you've stated, they've largely merged with American values, Western values and just plain common sense.

I don't even think your people follow Christian values that closely anyway, considering the buffoon that's been elected president. Baffles me how someone can claim to be a selfless follower of Jesus, love your neighbour and the Golden Rule yet also want to kick out all the foreigners and elect gropers as head of state.

AlofRI(2650) Clarified
1 point

I'm trying to figure out your last paragraph. What do you consider MY people? I DO follow values that "resemble" Christian values, probably closer than MANY so-called Christians (like Trump). Maybe this statement was aimed at Bronto?

I don't believe you would (Constitutionally), have to ASK to not swear on a Bible, you should be able to demand to swear on The Constitution, instead.

So, you think John Adams remark was "baseless" and "ludicrous"? I agree with much of what you stated, but, John Adams, "ludicrous"?? HE was there at the time, HE knows what the conversation was, HE knew the feelings of those who were involved, I think he was anything BUT ludicrous.

FromWithin(7144) Disputed
1 point

You have NO CLUE of what you are sayng. Those common sense values from our Christian heritage are being thrown out one by one by the Progressive Left.

Those common sense moral values such as the right to life, freedom of religious expression, shaming sexual promiscuity, shaming the andandoning of our children, speaking out on the value of morality, shaming of laziness, IS NOWHERE TO BE FOUND IN THIS ANTI CHRISTIAN LEFTWING CULTURE.

Man without God is proving how quickly he runs headlong into the gutter.

Thank all of you for this valuable discussion. It’s one of the most important topics of today. Though I’m Pagan and believe white people have been “duped “ by the Joo book - white people were Goddess earth religions. feel so relieved that I was not born in a Muslim country! Dang!

1 point

Which societies are you talking about? The Chi-Coms? The Ruskie Communists? The Muslims? The African or Arab tribal nations who are constantly warring among themselves? Maybe you are referring to the Western societies like Sweden which managed to be neutral during WWII and would have been subjects of Hitler had the USA not stopped him?

Righteousness exalts a nation, but sin is a reproach to any people. The USA is heading for a fall with it's dollar being impossible to uphold with out of control spending and deficits....God's judgement against America's ungodly ways is sure to come and whatever replaces it's corrupt polities will be much worse that what it is now; at least until Christ returns and overturns all corruption in all governments.

1 point

See, Christian values to me means doing the right thing. If a society stops doing the right thing, that society will fall quite naturally.

What do you think Christian values are?

1 point

I heard Preger say that “if Judeao-Christian values fall apart - then America soon will fall”

Prager is an extreme adherent to Judaism. It is not all surprising that he views the World through the lens submitted in the excerpted statement above

Given the fact that america's a secular country, it shouldn't fall....