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 Veganism is the only morally defensible position. Change my mind. (59)

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Csea(18) pic



Veganism is the only morally defensible position. Change my mind.

Today, we live in a society in which eating animal products is completely unnecessary,”. Meat and dairy farming is cruel and barbaric, endangers our wildlife and polluted our air. I strongly believe that everyone should be vegan.

I’m interested, are there any convincing moral arguments against this? 
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2 points

I'm going to focus on this " endangers our wildlife and polluted our air." part right now. Even vegetable/fruit farming isn't immune to this danger. I'm just going to toss up some links to prove it:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4947579/

https://www.nature.com/scitable/blog/green-science/the dangersofpesticides

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2984095/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3108117/

The over-use or even use of pesticides can leak into the water source and cause birth defects, health concerns including cancer, and other various diseases. It also caused a decline in beneficial pollinators such as the bee's and butterflies. A fact that apple farmers in China found out because they have to hand pollinate their tree's to produce the fruit they so depend on when they used pesticides and killed off all their natural pollinators.

When pesticides are sprayed by using airplanes to cover more of their fields it contributes to air pollution as well. Even washing produce isn't a guarantee that you can remove all of the pesticides that have been used, many of them leech into the flesh of the fruit.

There are some dairy/cattle/pig farms that are sorely lacking in the humane aspect of it but more and more are going towards grass fed, less chemical, better grazing practices and the like. Whether or not you eat meat, we can't really say that veganism is safer and less harmful to the planet.

Csea(18) Disputed
1 point

First of all thank you for the further reading and sharing some new views. Just on a quick look at your argument, my rebuttal would be that, while it is absolutely true that non-vegan food and practices add to pollution and a deteriorating environment, these are far more difficult to control from the grassroots. I can’t stop eating vegetables, for example, and living in inner London means I would struggle to grow my own. Going vegan, however, is a really easy way I can contribute a small amount towards the environment. Since this is something in our direct control, why can’t it be a step in the right direction rather than completely futile because we can’t solve pollution completely? An analogy might be that just because I can’t feed every starving person doesn’t mean it’s pointless to feed one.

Mint_tea(3650) Disputed
2 points

I can’t stop eating vegetables, for example, and living in inner London means I would struggle to grow my own

This may not be entirely true. Not the 'stop eating veggies' part, I would never suggest that as a veggie lover myself, but many cities are actually starting to move towards roof top gardens. Those who live in a building that can't can actually grow a vertical garden in their room using recycled soda bottles, various containers and the like, as well as starting a hydroponics/aquaponics system. Sure you may not be able to grow root vegetables like carrots but you can grow potato's in surprisingly small containers. All of which allow you to control the chemicals placed on your crops. If you have a balcony it's amazing what, with a little ingenuity, you can grow, especially if you are willing to sacrifice some space for it.

Csea(18) Disputed
1 point

Some interesting points here, but the article itself clarifies that this is absolutely not corroborated by comprehensive studies. It’s more like guesswork. What about the pain and suffering animal products cause?

2 points

Well, I eat a variety of different meats primarily because I enjoy the gastronomic experience which is enhanced in the knowledge that the poor dumb animals probably had to suffer quite a lot so I could relish the taste of their flesh.

Whether or not I've shone some light into the dark recesses of your diseased mind is of no importance to me.

What are your shoes, wallet, watch strap and the kinky gear you wear in the spanking room* made of?

Tell you what, you work your side of the street and I'll work mine.

Csea(18) Disputed
1 point

I don’t wear leather. Sorry I’m not a walking hypocrite as I know they’re a lot easier to argue with.

As for your own moral compass, I think you know your position is wrong. I’ll leave it there- there’s little I can do with such silly remarks.

Antrim(1306) Clarified
4 points

Man, man oh man, aren't you the grown up little blue nosed puritan trying to grab the moral high ground so you can smugly talk down to all those who don't share your freakish dietary choices.

There are always those sanctimonious zealots who will use their warped sense of moral blackmail to try to intimidate others to adopt their dogma.

For years it was, and still is the religious fanatics, then the gay pride brigade, the hippies, the P.C., idiots, the feminists and now the vagans.

Why can't you obsessed lifestyle fanatics live your lives and follow your chosen agenda quietly and let others do the same?

outlaw60(13188) Disputed
2 points

Meat and dairy farming is cruel and barbaric, endangers our wildlife and polluted our air.

Then explain yourself Stupid

woodtn(1) Disputed
1 point

This was posted in the wrong section. Sorry for the inconvenience. It did post it down lower in the debate.

2 points

That’s merely your opinion and nothing else as to me it’s morally indefensible to be a vegan for a number of reasons , I will start with my main one .

The economic costs on society would be dreadful and lead to a catastrophic cost on employment rates worldwide as so many societies rely on animals for a livehood , some areas of the world have no other option but reliance on animals such as cows , sheep goats etc , etc

Csea(18) Disputed
1 point

Why do you value employment over the pain and suffering of animals? If we all went vegan, a lot more work would be created in cultivating plants and producing vegan alternatives.

Dermot(5461) Disputed
2 points

Why do you value employment over the pain and suffering of animals?

Why do you value mass unemployment and suffering of humans worldwide over animals ?

If we all went vegan, a lot more work would be created in cultivating plants and producing vegan alternatives.

Absolute nonsense

1 point

1: All animals eat other animals, even herbivores.

2: Plants are sentient.

Csea(18) Disputed
1 point

1. They absolutely don’t. Unless you mean bugs- by accident! How does this link to my question? We don’t need to eat animal products.

2. Perhaps, but I’ll die if I don’t eat plants.

AntEaterMan Disputed
1 point

@Csea

Watch this if you think there is such thing as a herbivore.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TdTXaFtDqZE

You say we don't need animal products? So you are saying you don't need yourself? You are a walking animal product. Saying humans don't need animal flesh is like saying a wooden table can be made out of plastic.

I’ll die if I don’t eat plants.

That's what you have been brainwashed with all your life, how do you think humans survived in the ice age on 99% animal meat?

1 point

Today, we live in a society in which eating animal products is completely unnecessary

This is incorrect. Today you live in a society where veganism is possible. The ability to be vegan is a luxury of modern western civilization and is not an option for many in the world even today. Anything that is a luxury cannot be morally superior to necessity.

VeganHippo(7) Disputed
1 point

Anything that is a luxury cannot be morally superior to necessity.

You're looking at this all wrong. If you are in a situation where you have to kill someone else to survive you don't have the luxury of not killing them, but if you don't have to kill them you are obligated not to. And you shouldn't really want to even if it is necessary and you must do it. Vegans are not asking people in 3rd world countries to starve, we are asking people who have the means to be healthy on a vegan diet to refrain from murdering sentient beings as it is not necessary for their survival. If you don't have the luxury of not killing for your own survival that's one thing, but if you are not starving and have access to whatever you want at the grocery store then it is morally superior to choose things that don't hurt anyone. See how this works? There is no justification for needlessly murdering sentient beings. Your situation does not necessitate the consumption of animal products, therefor it is morally superior not to, if you where one of those people who DIDN't have the luxury then it's entirely different.

Amarel(4071) Disputed
1 point

Even where eating meat is not necessary, being vegan is still a luxury. Foregoing luxury is not immoral. Being a passivist is another modern luxury that practitioners like to pass off as morally superior. But society is always only one generation away from chaos (its here depending on where you live). Failing to know how to fight for yourself or maintain a stomach for meat makes you a liability in the event that your chosen luxury is no longer an option. The subjects of moral condemnation today would often be relied on in moments of crisis.

In the case of veganism, the evolved trait for in-group empathy, which used to be localized to ones own tribe of humans, has expanded as far as naturally possible beyond even humanity. You have a group preference for sentient beings and value the life of plants well below life forms that are more like you. That’s all well and good, but it’s not morally superior. The living kill to keep on living. You are no different. When I harvest plants, I try to do it as quickly and cleanly as possible. Same goes for killing animals. And I will happily keep eating meat without any qualms, you never know what tomorrow may bring.

Csea(18) Disputed
1 point

Many tribes eat mostly vegan as plants are easier to come by, so it is not a privilege thing. Also, I would expect that someone who has the free time and internet to debate on here probably has the capacity to become vegan. So where it is possible, we should become vegan. Would you agree with that?

Amarel(4071) Disputed
1 point

Many tribes eat mostly vegan as plants are easier to come by, so it is not a privilege thing.

I never said it was a privilege thing, it’s a luxury. When tribes eat mostly plants it’s not a luxury. They eat what they can to survive. There were no vegetarians pre-agriculture. Hunter/gatherers do more than gather.

Also, I would expect that someone who has the free time and internet to debate on here probably has the capacity to become vegan

Probably, but it’s not a luxury that I am particularly drawn to.

So where it is possible, we should become vegan. Would you agree with that?

Absolutely not. Your ability to be vegan does not morally necessitate it. You live in a highly advanced society where certain crucial needs, such as physical protection and food procurement, are taken care of for you. You can be a vegan or a passivist or whatever soft and gentle thing you prefer only because of societal circumstance. You can, but it’s not morally superior.

Why is it that PETA groups never speak out against abortion? I would actually have respect for people against cruelty to animals if they also were against cruelty to humans during abortions.

PETA groups are outraged if some hunter kills a pregnant deer, because the baby deer inside the mother deer will also die.

It's amazing how people can be so screwed up and care for an unborn animal, but say nothing for that unborn human life.

NeoNazi(36) Disputed
2 points

Why is it that pro life groups never speak out against animal cruelty? I would actually have respect for people against cruelty to fetuses if they also were against cruelty to animals and or any kind of cruelty whatsoever other than just that one issue.

You only care about abortion and they only care about animals, I don't see the bloody difference.

FromWithin(6669) Disputed
1 point

You just clearly showed us all how totally lost you are!

You just said you don't understand the difference between the value of a human life versus animal life.

THAT SAYS IT ALL!

You are so totally dead inside, that you lack the most basic of humanity. You have absolutely no caring or compassion for the lives of viable unborn babies whether they be Special Need's or others.

Hnn, beef jerky......................................................................................

Csea(18) Disputed
1 point

Probably the worst argument I’ve heard so far. Almost as bad as, BUT BACON!!!!

outlaw60(13188) Disputed
1 point

You mean to say Muslims like Bacon ?????????????????????????? LMMFAO

Is anyone complaining about animals eating other animals? No, so why are we complaining about humans eating animals? Humans are animals, and it's natural to eat meat.

Csea(18) Disputed
1 point

My favourite part of this is that I actually misread it and thought you said, ‘why are we complaining about humans eating humans. Humans are animals, and it’s natural to eat meat.’ This actually makes the same point you made.

Other animals eat animals in order to survive and because it is in their nature. They do not have the ability to think logically and to be ethical. We do, so just like we believe it is ethically wrong to eat other humans and generally avoid doing so, I think we should do the same for other animals, given that we have that ability.

1 point

Fair enough. However, I'm not going to become a vegan because currently, it's a choice. We can always breed more animals and, if it comes to it, we can genetically produce all the food we currently eat.

On top of that, plants are living, too. They make their own food, so it could be argued that they're better than us in that aspect. They don't kill anything and yet vegans take their lives away. So, I propose that we genetically engineer our food as well.

1 point

It's highly unlikely that you understand your nutritional needs and the accompanying micro and macro nutrient deficiencies that you already have. Making radical changes to your diet is incredibly likely to worsen your existing nutrient deficiencies which will negatively impact your health. For but one macro-nutrient example, if you are a physically active male, it will be incredibly difficult for you to get enough protein, unless you resort to hormone disrupting soy (which also isn't balanced in terms of amino acid profile). For a micro-nutrient example, the lack of heme-iron in the diet may make you anaemic. Heme-iron (from meat) is easy to absorb and even helps us to digest iron from plant sources. While many vegan foods are rich in iron, non-heme iron is incredibly difficult to digest unless accompanied by heme-iron.

If you are considering a vegan diet, you should either do extensive reading or employ a nutritionist, because it is difficult enough to meet your needs on a regular diet (and you doubtlessly already have nutritional deficiencies).

1 point

The morally defensive position is that life is to be respected. If you eat plants and not animals you are simply saying that only some life are worthy of respect ;)

1 point

I find that it is not an easily morally defensible position at all. The main problem our society currently runs into is the fact that a lot of options, especially organic, and healthy ones, tend to be more expensive than a hamburger at McDonalds, BK, or Wendy's, etc... Acquiring the proper amounts of iron, protein, and other nutrients provided in meat, can become far more expensive. The impoverished community might not be able to acquire these things.

Not to mention, there are people with allergies to particular meat substitutes. What are they to do? When looking from the standpoint of our body makeup, there is a strong physical aspect to the human body, in our canine teeth, that would promote the idea that humans are intended, or evolved to eat meat. It may be dwindling, but it is still there.

0 points

Let me guess, you are pro choice?

I always get such a laugh at hypocrites who supposedly have such compassion for even animals, while voting for a Democrat party that keeps NO RESTRICTION ABORTIONS OF VIABLE UNBORN BABIES LEGAL.

Try witnessing a late term abortion, and get back to me on cruelty. Are you people for real? How lost can you be?

Cuaroc(8822) Clarified
1 point

Impressive, it's truly impossible for you to stay on topic isn't it?

outlaw60(13188) Disputed
1 point

Meat and dairy farming is cruel and barbaric, endangers our wildlife and polluted our air.

Stay on topic SnowFlake and explain the absurdity of the above statement.

Csea(18) Disputed
0 points

Quite often, vegan ideologies align with the pro choice movement. This is because it is a general belief that we respect living things and avoid pain and suffering where possible. Restricting abortions creates pain and suffering among reluctant mothers, so naturally it does not appeal.

Also, this is not a thread about abortion!

FromWithin(6669) Disputed
1 point

LOL, whaat a hypocritical fool you are. If it were an unborn animal being killed, you would have a problem, but when it's a human baby being killed, you only think about the mother.