Virtual Church Debate (EM230/Fa16)
Point (in favor): Virtual technology allows the church to creatively reach those unable to engage a
physical church setting due to a variety of reasons. To provide a solely virtual church experience is a
modern way to fulfill the Great Commission of Mathew 28. God gave us the ability to reflect him by
creating amazing technologies, let’s use it!
Point (not favorable): Virtual technology poses a great threat to the mission and function of the Church.
Attending church from the safety of personal privacy encourages individualism and independence from
God and his divine structure. A computer generated person isn’t real and can’t replace the Acts 2:42
experience. Virtual technology will do more harm than good!
Virtual Church (for)
Side Score: 17
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Virtual Church (against)
Side Score: 18
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2
points
Going to Church in shiny, squeaky shoes and a new 'Sunday go to church suit'' doesn't make you a Christian any more than standing in a garage makes you an auto mechanic. Where two or three gather in my name I am there amongst them. Receiving Jesus Christ into your heart is a person experience between you and your creator. Side: Virtual Church (for)
Ephesians 5:25-27 .. husbands .. love your wives .. just as Christ also loved the church and gave himself up for her so that he might sanctify her .. having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word that he might present to himself the church in all her glory .. having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing .. but that she would be holy and blameless ---------------------------------------- We are saved by the washing of the water with the word .... http://dadmansabode.com/forum/ regardless of who delivers it ... God's word will not return void Side: Virtual Church (for)
if your "face to face communication" contradicts the incarnate word ... then your "face to face communication" is in error ... the presentation of the facts and the face to face communication indeed go hand in hand ... one should indeed lead to the other ... stick to The Bible-Driven Church ... God gave us his word for a reason Side: Virtual Church (for)
The argument a virtual church allows too much independence smacks horrendously of the old Roman Catholic monopoly on Christianity making everyone come to it and trying to squash Protestants or anyone who acted independently of the church's power. Hey, you believe the Bible is the word of God, and you encourage everyone to read it for themselves. They can do that from anywhere. Also you believe God is omnipotent and omnipresent. That means he is in their home during a videolink just the same as he would be in a church. Side: Virtual Church (for)
God is indeed present no matter where we are, and our access to God's word is endless in this day and age; however, our faith is greatly hampered when we live it out in a fashion of solitude. In addition The Monastic lifestyle, and celibacy were not promoted by the reformers. Side: Virtual Church (against)
OK so I have been asked to give an argument against, and FOR the virtual church...so here goes my argument FOR the virtual church... I hate crowds. I hate being in a crowd (more then 20 people) especially when everyone is talking at the same time. I can not focus on one conversation, I hear them all. I don't like my "personal space" invaded (imagine a space roughly 2 feet in diameter around me). I hate sitting next to anyone but my wife. From the land of laptopia I can access a multitude of information without every having to talk to someone. My smart phone doubles as a lectern for a vast array of preachers (Begg, MacArthur, Sproul, McGee and others). I can be convicted in the comfort of my prayer closet, and no one will have to hear my laments and shake their heads. Confession of, and prayer for, my sins are just a click away. It is truly the best possible solution for me.... Side: Virtual Church (for)
To your first section statement, does that kind of behavior or encouragement not reinforce a habit of avoiding fellowship? {I believe that we are called to be together as a church and serve each other. i believe that there is far more limitation to service via the internet. You can be at opposite ends of the globe and make statements that are non constructive and dangerous with no repercussion other than a bad review. understanding that there are people who dislike going out i do understand the tempting nature of this kind of church but i have a hard time getting past the fact that is is not vulnerable or service minded. Side: Virtual Church (against)
God calls us to reach out to people wherever they are, and to understand their contexts better as a way to reach them. Paul said in 1 Corinthians 9 that he became like a Jew to reach the Jewish people, like a Greek to reach them, and so on. Why should we not also meet the virtual community on their own ground and share the love of Christ with them in that context? Side: Virtual Church (for)
so if we are supposed to do as Paul did and act like a group of people to minister to them then if we want to minister to drug addicts or the homeless does that mean we should try to be like them in their context of life? I guess I'm asking where do you draw the line with who you should and shouldn't act like to gain their trust and attention? Jesus didn't act like the people that he ministered to, he interacted with them in their setting but he never acted like a prostitute or adulterer or a tax collector. Side: Virtual Church (against)
First of all think of how fortunate we are to be able to have technology that can spread like wildfire. Praise God that I can talk to a man overseas about Jesus Christ and what he did for him! Of course this can be dangerous if it is not handled correctly but it is not different than the churches that we experience on a typical Sunday morning because you can experience someone misinterpreting what is said in a face to face church meeting. Matthew 28:16-20 - 16 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.” I highlight the fact that it says teach them to obey everything that I have commanded to you. Why can't we do that with having church virtually, especially for the fact that some people are not comfortable going in a big group setting because of some sort of disability? I know many people who cannot get rides to a church on Sundays because of the group home they live in and one opportunity that they all have access too is the internet. It is incredible that they can offer a message from across the world. Even though these are "fake" pixel-ed characters on a screen, there still remains the person behind them showing that they are present wanting to learn how to be obedient, learn how to live the christian life, and learning about God's word. Side: Virtual Church (for)
I believe that it is important to reach people where they are at. I think the concept of online church for me is odd but for others it may be the only place that they are willing to open up and listen to what is being said. The circumstances of why someone would be willing to only attend something online are extremely variable but at the end of the day we have to know that people will only receive the message being given if they are comfortable and safe doing so. If someone doesn't feel safe exposing their real self to a church or leaving their house or any number of other things then they will not receive or listen to anyone. Mark 16:15, Go into all the world and preach... I believe that in a modern technological society we have to be willing to consider that "all the world" where some people live is the virtual world. Side: Virtual Church (for)
My argument is that the Bible tells us that wherever you gather with people in the name of Jesus, he is there. Matthew 18:20 says, 18 Truly I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.19 Again I say to you, that if two of you agree on earth about anything that they may ask, it shall be done for them by My Father who is in heaven. 20 For where two or three have gathered together in My name, I am there in their midst. So if God calls us to be in fellowship with him and fellow believers and we are all meeting on a virtual church watching the same sermon, Christ is in our midst and we are glorifying him together even thought it is not in a physical environment. Side: Virtual Church (for)
If you reread the passage that you posed to us, it entails that when we are dealing with problems and conflicts of the church, that we should go to them and confront them in private and if need be, reach out to others in the church to confront them if it does not work. Matthew18:15-17 - 15 “If your brother or sister[a] sins,[b] go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over. 16 But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’[c] 17 If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector. To simplify everything here, how can we confront anyone if there are issues? Are they really going to want to change without a physical presence? How can we gather with more than one brother to confront issues in the church if it is all virtual. This is why I think it needs to go further than the online community because any spiritual growth is going to be pretty minimal. Side: Virtual Church (against)
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Christian faith is forged in the crucible of face to face community. Go and make disciples, love your neighbors, love your enemies, If someone is hungry and thirsty feed them and give them drink. If someone has need of clothing give them clothing. If you have a problem with your brother, go to them and work it out. The Gospel is a call to action, not just mere participation. Faith without works is dead. We can see 2 examples from the life of Jesus concerning virtual versus reality: Jesus touched those He prayed for. Matt: 8:3,15; 9:29; 17:7; 20:34 Jesus spent time with the disciples teaching, and training them, in real life situations (on the job training) We can see this example of virtual versus reality in the life of the Apostle Paul: Paul had virtual issues with the church in Corinth. Paul's letters were impressive; however Paul's appearance was less then desirable. 2 Corinthians 10 For they say, “His letters are weighty and strong, but his personal presence is unimpressive and his speech contemptible.” Let such a person consider this, that what we are in word by letters when absent, such persons we are also in deed when present. The Corinthians could accept the virtual Paul, but they couldn’t accept the real Paul. Paul made the point that the real Paul gave substance to the virtual Paul, and not the other way around. Side: Virtual Church (against)
I am not saying that the virtual church is never the right place for ministry, but I would say it is surely not the best or even beneficial in most cases. Large amounts of time spent in digital worlds are often connected with two things: (1) isolation from people in real contexts, and an increased inability to interact with people in a socially healthy way, and (2) an unstable identity based on a false or at least very limited expression of them as a person (such as an avatar and text-based or recorded dialogue separated from things like body language, facial expressions and physical proximity). Wherever the people are who live in these virtual worlds, I feel it would be far better if Christians took it upon themselves to meet the real people behind these avatars and engage with them, not allowing the possible awkwardness of this this to deter them. Could a virtual church be a starting point for real-world interactions? Yes, but things surely shouldn't stay there. What do y'all think? Side: Virtual Church (against)
I would like to argue against the Virtual Church on the subject of human connection. We simply are becoming a more technological world which makes us more advanced as a secular world but we lose human interaction. Now, if we add a new piece to the mix A.K.A. the virtual church, that is just another branch of being disconnected from one another. If we are honest with ourselves, we never try to help and push people to be the best that they can be. We just make accommodations to help with the problems that they are having. The virtual church is just another example that we are using to help people feel connected in some way but lose many things. One of those things is accountability. You can listen and learn about it all you want but if you are not exercising what you are hearing then why even listen to the broadcast? From the beginning, God created us to be in relationship with one another. All throughout the Bible we lived and learned through living life TOGETHER. We walk with each other, struggle together, laugh together, among many other occurrences that we come in contact with. I am trying to think how we can use this as a tool to help find connection and interaction outside from the internet, and we have to work as Christians to meet them to try and build a relationship to provide with them on how God can use us together. Side: Virtual Church (against)
So, I have a question, if you are saying that as a society technology is making us more disconnected, then why do we still text and call every day? or why do we video chat or snapchat? I guess my question is where do you draw the line with technology disconnecting us? because Is it wrong to say 'lets talk on the phone later and I'll Skype you tonight' but when the subject of church online with video chat comes up then it is a bad thing all of a sudden? We want to connect with people we can't see every single day. The virtual Church accomplishes this, you are connecting and seeing a sermon live so you are getting the word of God in, and the secular world gave us technology so why not use it for the good of the Church? Side: Virtual Church (for)
I'm not saying that technology is a bad thing, and in fact technology helps us further "quick" information and more convenient depending on our circumstances. My argument is based on the virtual church and how it "secludes and keeps people where they are at." I believe that the virtual church accepts them where they are at BUT where do you go from there? There is no accountability physically around, there is no "trying to grow from identity issues someone might be dealing with, you make an appearance with your avatar to model worship, dance, pray, among other church functions. My issue is that the reality of the person on the other side of the computer screen. Most can put on a show on the computer screen but really have no desire on the other side, which is why accountability comes in by other believers if they were trying to participate in a physical community Side: Virtual Church (against)
The church is a place of fellowship and growing. I believe that this aspect of church would be extremely difficult online. There would be very little accountability as like most things conducted online and the freedom to hide form people is the click of a button. Online church is dangerous in that there is no way for it to function in every capacity as a real church. yes there might be sound teaching and doctrine but the fellowship would be lacking and the accountability to leadership is non existent. There is no face to face interaction or vulnerability for pastoral guidance. There also exists the issue of interference. In a real church a false teacher or disruptive person can be removed. In an online setting a disruptive person is much more difficult to get rid of for the sake of the rest of the people who have genuine interest in the activities of the online church. In all i believe that it is perhaps dangerous to assume that the online church is capable of functioning as a church should, it leaves room for dangerous teaching and shallow listening from the comfort of your own home. Side: Virtual Church (against)
Whadup J-dawg I have only a couple points that I would like to question. First, I can only think of how great it would be if people felt comfortable saying what was on their mind. I understand that they are hiding behind a click of a button but we typically do not ask the questions that we find difficult in person. If we are online and in a "virtual church community," people tend to say what is on their hearts without it offending anybody. I can totally visualize how dangerous it can be, but I can think of how powerful it can be at the same time! Also, I just think about how EASY it would be to mute or kick people out of your group if they are really causing a disturbance. Click on their profile and mute or boot out are options. Side: Virtual Church (for)
My argument is that the virtural church does not reach those who cannot attend, one of my arguments is that you cannot participate in some church traditional activities that God's word says about how Church should run. 1. God calls for us to meet and break bread together. - 1 Corinthians 11:23-26 - If you go to church online and watch a sermon or listen to one, there isn't a qualified way that you can break bread in remembrance with fellow believers. 2. A church maintains corporate holiness in the Church.- Matthew 18:17 -This verse says calls us to keeps brothers and sisters in the church accountable for each other and if you go on a virtual church you don't know or can't see and build a relationship to keep them accountable with the church. 3. The church is a place where we are to use our spiritual gifts for the good of the Church. 1 Corinthians 14:26 - Everyone has spiritual gifts that the Lord has blessed us with and if you go to a virtual church I feel like you can't really use your spiritual gifts for the church or others in the 'congregation' Side: Virtual Church (against)
To your main statement, in what way does it not reach them? is communication with the people who "attend" the virtual church not reaching them? God does call us to meet and break bread together, i agree with that point however i would question the fact that it does not qualify as being a community when interfacing online. I also agree that people do not not have an outlet for displaying gifts and serving, but i also believe that there is a way to serve and fellowship without being in the same room as someone. You serve less of the physical need but are capable of serving an emotional, spiritual or relational need if done tactfully and skillfully online. Side: Virtual Church (for)
Sorry I did not write what I meant to say for my main statement It does reach them sorry that the wording was incorrect on my part. On the subject of serving emotional, spiritual or relational needs, how can this tactfully and siillfully done? I feel like if it can be done that way wouldn't more people just do church online instead of going in person? Side: Virtual Church (for)
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