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He was very much a real person, and by all accounts a pretty cool guy. However, his divinity is in doubt! Although, if he were divine, would he be a "real" person?
Good point. Actually, early Christians never even spoke of the divinity of Christ, they only followed his teachings. His divinity was declared centuries after the crucifixion when Rome, basically, became the center of Christianity. That one detail, alone, should make people stop and think.
I identify myself as a Christian, though I have struggled with the divinity of Christ for that very reason. Why wasn't he considered to be divine by those who followed him while he walked the Earth? I still consider myself a Christian because I follow his teachings and believe he was sent here for a special purpose.
I too, am a Christian and we should doubt most doctrine and things man made. The early church and church today has done much to harm its own image and the concept of a Triune God is a difficult one. The teachings of Jesus are important regardless of a belief in a divinity and are a "best practices" manual. The mission is God passionately seeking a relationship with his children, the church exist because of "missio dei" God's mission. God's existence is not found in a church, it is found in a relationship with the Lord, a relationship that I am sure of and I treasure. Agnostics and atheists would argue that I am dilusional, unless they invite Jesus in to their own hearts they will never know.
First of all, I wanted to say that you brought up good questions and it is very critical to know Jesus' self-understanding of who He is as well as His followers understanding of who He is.
I. Defining terms:
1. "Early Christian": Is commonly known as the Christianity of the roughly three centuries (1st, 2nd, 3rd, early 4th) between the Crucifixion of Jesus (30-33) and the First Council of Nicaea in 325.
2. A. Jesus' Titles of Deity:
a. YHWH (Yahweh): (Exodus 3:14) Basically means "He who is," or "I am who I
am," and declares the divine self-existence" (Unger's Bible
Dictionary 409).
b. Son of God: A term used exclusively and absolute sense.
1. "His disciples and His enemies understand from their Jewish background that the real
import of the term "Son of God" was Deity. One hundred
and four times, Christ refers Himself to God as "Father"
or "the Father" (Evidence that Demands A Verdict Vol. 1,
101).
c. Son of Man: Jesus used this title in three distinctive ways:
1. Concerning His earthly ministry.
2. When foretelling His passion.
3. In His teaching regarding His coming again.
Jesus clearly believed Himself to be the fulfillment of the Old
Testament prophecies of the Messiah. In referring to
Himself He continually used the title "The Son of Man" from
Daniel's vision" (Daniel 7:13, 14).
(Evidence that Demands A Verdict Vol. 1, 102)
d. Abba, Father: "Nobody before Him in all history of Israel had addressed
God by this word...to be sure, Jews were accustomed to
praying to God as Father: but the word they used was
Abhinu, a form of address which was essentially an appeal
to God for Mercy and forgiveness. There is no appeal to God
for mercy in Jesus' mode of address, Abba. It is the familiar
word of closest intimacy. That is why He differentiated
between His own relationship with God as Father that of
other people" (Evidence that Demands A Verdict Vol.1, 102)
A. Questions/Points:
1. "Actually, early Christians never even spoke of the divinity of Christ, they
only followed his teachings"
2. "Why wasn't he considered to be divine by those who followed him while he
walked the Earth?"
3. "His divinity was declared centuries after the crucifixion when Rome,
basically, became the center of Christianity"
Introduction
Because you used the term "Early Christians" I can only assume you are referring to said definition of the term provided. In point 1, (based on said definition of term), you made the claim that in all periods (1st, 2nd, 3rd, early 4th) Christ's dual nature was not acknowledged, specifically His Divine Nature. In point 2, you made a question in regards to why His disciples (since you clearly stated that it was in reference to those who were "while He walked on earth"), considered Him to be divine. Finally, point 3, you made the claim that when Rome became "the center of Christianity", it was than that Christ's Divine Nature was acknowledged.
Rebuttals
1. Jesus' followers (in reference to point 2: "...those who followed Him while He
walked on earth ") did indeed believed His claim to Deity. Thomas, one of the
twelve apostles acknowledged Him as "My Lord and my God" in John 20:28.
Notice, that those who were with Thomas heard him say that directly to
Jesus (the rest of the apostles, and the rest of the disciples). None of them
rebuked him and most of all, neither did Jesus. Jesus received Thomas'
worship which can only be given to God. Secondly, the apostle John, the
writer of the this Gospel, states his purpose for writing, "But these were written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that by believing ye might have life through His name" (John 20:31). Thirdly, the writer of Acts states that the community of believers (first century/apostolic period) "...continued steadfastly in the apostle's doctrine" which would include Jesus' dual nature (fully God and fully human).
2. Since the term "Early Christian" covers 1st, 2nd, 3rd, early 4th between the Crucifixion of Jesus (30-33) and the First Council of Nicaea in 325, than we need to read what the representatives said from each period right?
I. Anti-Nicene Fathers:
a. Apostolic Fathers: Traditionally used to designate the collection of the
earliest extant Christian writings outside the New Testament ( The
Apostolic Fathers 2nd ed. pg. 1)
-These were people that either were disciples of the twelve
apostles or disciples of those who had direct contact with the
apostles. These documents are primary resource for the study
of early Christianity. It is evidence that the early church
indeed "...steadfastly continued in the apostle's doctrines"
which includes the Deity of Christ.
a. Clement: "The majestic scepter of God, our Lord
Christ Jesus"
"Let us fear the Lord Jesus Christ"
"Jesus Christ, whom be the glory and majesty,
might and honor to Him, both now and forever and
ever"
b. Ignatius: "Jesus Christ our God"
"There is only one physician, who is both
flesh and spirit , born and unborn, God in
man, first subject to suffering and then
beyond it, Jesus Christ our Lord"
c. Polycarp: "Our Lord Jesus Christ from the dead and
gave him glory and a throne at his right
hand to whom all things in heaven and on
earth were subjected, whom every
breathing creature serves, who is coming
as Judge of the living and the dead"
b. Fathers of the Second Century.
1. Irenaeus: explained in Against Heresies (4.10) how Christ was often seen by Moses and that it was Christ who spoke from the burning bush. lrenaeus continued elaborating on Christ's relationship to God the Father: "For with Him were always present the Word and Wisdom the Son and the Spirit, by whom and in whom freely and spontaneously, He mode all things, to whom also He speaks, saying, 'Let us make man after our image and likeness.
2. Tertullian: Adv. Praxean 27 states that there are two natures, one human and one divine, which are joined in the one person Jesus Christ.
3. Clement of Alexandria: Exhortation to the Heathen, 1: “This Word, then, the Christ, the cause of both our being at first (for He was in God) ad of our well-being, this very Word has now appeared as man, He alone being both, both God and man--that Author of all blessings to us. . . . This is the New Song, the manifestation of the Word that was in the beginning, and before the beginning.”
4. Novatian:
"The rule of truth demands that, first of all, we believe in God the Father and Almighty Lord, that is, the most perfect Maker of all things. . .' The same rule of truth teaches us to believe, after the Father, also in the Son of God, CHRIST JESUS, our Lord God, but the Son of God.... Moreover, the order of reason and the authority of faith, in due consideration of the words and Scriptures of the Lord ', admonishes us, after this, to believe also in the Holy Ghost, promised of old to the Church, but granted in the appointed and fitting time.”
This was written in 235 AD and this was just 100 yrs. before the council of Nicaea!
5. Hippolytus: “1. Do you believe in God, the Father Almighty? 2. Do you believe in Christ Jesus, the Son of God, who was born by the Holy Spirit of the Virgin Mary, and was crucified under Pontius Pilate, and was dead and buried, and rose again the third day, alive from the dead, and ascended into heaven, and sat at the right hand of the Father, and will come to judge the living and the dead? 3. Do you believe in the Holy Spirit, in the holy church, and in the resurrection of the flesh?”
c. Fathers of the Third and Early Fourth Century:
1. Athanasius: "He always was and is God and Son"
"He who is eternally God,...also became man for our
sake"
2. Alexander of Alexandria: In reference to Jesus he said this, "His
highest and essential divinity" and that He was, "an exact and
identical image of the Father"
3. Eusebius of Caesarea: "The Son of God bears no resemblence to
originated creatures but...is alike in every way only to the Father
who has begotten Him and that He is not from any other hypostasis
and substance but from the Father"
Hence, from the very first Church leaders directly after the time of the Apostles up to the Council of Nicaea (and it was not in Rome, it was in Constantinople) in the 4th century and beyond, had consistently believed and taught that Jesus is God.
Conclusion
It is only logical with given so many evidences and testimonies, Church leaders were only declaring what was already declared by Jesus Christ and the apostles in Scripture, that Jesus was God. Therefore, it is theologically and historically inaccurate to believe that Christians never spoke of the divinity of Christ and that it was declared in Rome after somany centuries.
Mishnah: A collection of oral Jewish law and traditions that forms a basic part of
the Talmud.
The use of the Title: Son of Man
"Jesus clearly believed Himself to be the fulfillment of the Old Testament prophecies of the Messiah. In referring to Himself He continually used the title "The Son of Man" from Daniel's vision" (Daniel 7:13, 14).
(Evidence that Demands A Verdict Vol. 1, 102)
The use of the Title: Christ
"...is derived from the Greek word for Messiah (or the Hebrew Mashiach, see Daniel 9:26) and means "anointed one". Two offices, king and priest, are indicated in the use of the title Christ. The title affirms Jesus as the promised priest and king of Old Testament prophecies" (McDowell, More Than A Carpenter, 10).
A. Son of Man: Jesus used this title in three distinctive ways:
1. Concerning His earthly ministry.
2. When foretelling His passion.
3. In His teaching regarding His coming again.
In other words, Jesus claimed Messiahship by the way He used the title. That is, in such a way that His disciples and His hostile witnessses can not misunderstand. The Jews were expecting a Messiah according to the Old Testament prophecies. He claimed that He literally is the fulfillment of Old Testament Messianic prophecies. Not only that, but He also claimed Deity. Let me explain. When Jesus was on trial by the Sanhedrin (the religious ruling body), He was placed under oath by the high priest to give him an answer in regards to His claims. Morison explains about that oath, "If [Mishna] one shall say, I adjure you by the Almighty, by Sabaoth, by the Gracious and Merciful, by the Long-suffering, by the Compassionate, or by any of the Divine titles, behold they are bound to answer" (Morison, Who Moved the Stone?, 26). So, according to Jewish law, He had to answer. Here are the verses:
"But He kept silent and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked Him,
saying to Him, “Are You the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?” (Mark 14:61)
"Jesus said, “I am. And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven.” (Mark 14:62)
"I was watching in the night visions, and behold, One like the Son of Man, coming with the clouds of heaven! He came to the Ancient of Days, and they brought Him near before Him. Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom,
That all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion, Which shall not pass away, and His kingdom the one
which shall not be destroyed" Daniel 7:13-14
According to Jesus' testimony He said yes to:
1.The Son of the blessed God.
2. One who would sit at the right hand of power.
3. The Son of Man, who would come on the clouds of heaven.
to which the high priest reacted, "Then the high priest tore his clothes and said, “What further need do we have of witnesses? You have heard the blasphemy! What do you think?” And they all condemned Him to be deserving of death" (Mark 14:63-64). According to Jewish law, "...when acting as a judge, he was required by custom to express in this way his horror of any blasphemy uttered in his presence" (McDowell, More Than A Carpenter, 20). He was on trial for His claims. He is God who entered into human history by taking on Himself a human body and with a human name: Jesus. He has a dual-nature (Divine and Human). He is not a man who became God.
DECAY?hmm while you cut and paste from your bible in order to justify your belief(blasphemy in itself), i am sorry but my head has not begun to spin, nor am i spewing up green slime or calling "god" or Jesus(the dude), profanities,so im sorry if i offend you, but your attempt of exocism has not worked.....have a nice life Flame :)
There is a major differance between what you want to believe versus what Jesus claimed. I am justifying not simply what I want to believe, but what is based on eyewitness account which is a primary source in knowing what Jesus said and did. "Blasphemy"? Actually, going against reason and truth is what to many easily do. Faith and sight oppose each other, but not faith and reason. To dismiss Jesus as just another "good teacher" is against reason and truth. It's either He is lying or telling the truth. There are really three options: Liar, Lunatic, or Lord. In the words of C.S Lewis:
"He would either be a lunatic--on a level with the man who says he is a poached egg--or else he would be the devil of hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else a madman or something worse., You can shut Him up for a fool, you can spit at Him and kill Him as a demon; or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come with patronising nonesense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to s. He di not intend to"
How dare you tell me i must make an A/B choice on my position with Jesus/just because i dont paticipate in that old game of "chinese whispers" does not give you any right whatsoever, EVER, to dictate what i personally believe about JESUS,my relationship with that beautiful human being is none of your business.. now why dont you go venture into my debate about self-reflection.....................:(
"How dare you tell me i must make an A/B choice on my position with Jesus/just
because i dont paticipate in that old game of "chinese whispers" does not give you any right whatsoever,"
First of all, this is a debate where people are open-minded to other possibilities, even when they are holding strong to their beliefs, to be at least open-minded to other possibilities rather than just challenge them and than get upset when they are being challenged themselves. Because we do not have all the answers right?
Secondly, I do not throw rocks when I debate. If I do not know the answers I'll admit and research into it. I do not pretend I know the answers when I do not. But, when debating, I am challenging statements, not just simply "belief" and cross-examine those statements to see if it matches up with reality. Because you may be right, but probably wrong.
Third, If it is none of my business, neither is it yours with my relationship with Him either. You challenged me first.
btw-logical thinking would allow for me to believe that hallucigens such as various plants and human nature etc existed in such un-advanced times as back then.btw I have had an amazing time with Jesus.Also witnessed by quite a handful of people in the woywoy region of the central coast of Australia(yeh fancy that hey), my actual account with an angelic appearrance. Actual people witnessed this take place,I was sitting at a "popular" "friends" house, which was open to All mankind,on this paticular day IT WAS RAINING quite a lot of the regular hangers were there.I myself, was just a random drop in however on every occassion that i would visit there it would be a happy friendly enviroment to be.everyone would be getting along and having a pleasant time.But on this day i was shocked to find everybody was amid dispute,it broke my heart and (shock)silenced me.For once in my life i could not speak.AT that moment the rain stopped, and a Rainbow appeared,it made me smile and i went into the laneway to take a better photo to add to my "wallpapers"...what happenened next befelled that same silence amongst all that witnessed it.................IN this picture There was no color, in the obvious bands of the rainbow that i took BUT there was however a most beatiful angelic/god like appearrance formed from cloud which,to look at, could not be seen in the sky due to the over cast conditons that day.it was so amazing how clear the features showed up on the picture tho.The image appeared in the middle of the rainbow,it was in robe,its halo atop,and was indeed an image of a man with a long beard.And people witnessed me take that photo themselves....however you can dispute MY personal account on my experience with religion/Jesus or you can go to woy woy nsw Australia ,while you are there why dont you beat around the bush and see if you can find some of those people who witnessed it.,i was so keen to share this amazing sight and was quickly back to my chatty self.... if you want to see the pic go and find K. tempest, he may still have it somewhere, since he denied and kept the return of my things.Other than that, you can make what you like out of what i am saying to be a fact.Either way i still do not have to justify my personal experience with Jesus to you.
There is historical evidence that supports the existence of Jesus Christ. The only thing that can't be proven is whether or not he was divine. That all depends on faith.
That site is almost completely worthless and devoid of any archeological evidence for the existence of Jesus--much less evidence at all. I can find just as much evidence that The Queen of Cards existed in Alice's Adventures in Wonderland.
Ever heard of the Shroud of Turin or the Dead Sea Scrolls.
Yep. How is the Shroud of Turin evidence of the existence of a divine avatar, and not just a picture of some dudes face that by all reason is probably just a fabrication (that has been recently duplicated)? And what of the Dead Sea Scrolls? Do you even know what they are?
There is an entire vault of ancient artifacts.
There's also artifacts relating to Gilgamesh, it doesn't mean that there was a Mesopotamian ruler who fought divine bulls, had a best friend named Enkidu that was slain by the gods, and whose story led to a global flood in which he had to save pairs of animals on an ark.
The only Jesus Christ that exist is the one that we create in our minds. That is why one of the reasons that there are so many religions because they are all confused.
While getting fealty rich and the poor gets poorer
2This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.
but now i am confused. because you are saying that because i belieave that jesus did exist in the flesh that i am a spirit of god.but i dont belaive that "god" exists, so where does that put me?
to tell me that i cant believe in jesus without believing in "god" tells me i should not believe in the existence of mankind. i can not see "god" yet i can see man in the flesh.so knowing the existence of mankind to be fact why should one doubt the existence of another human being.
Ah, and what does the bible say about those bearing false witness? The truth is, you only have that book written by men to back you up. I'll see you in hell.
we have evidence for him being hisoriclly exist, and i saying this as an israeli living in "jesus`s holyland".
he was born jewish,and died jewish.
he saw his followers as a cult within judiasm, jewis-christans.
the stories about himbeing divine and the son of god are propaganda made for more people to join this new religion filled with paganism, for, you know it, making it easier for more people to join.
the seperation of christianity from judiasm would probably turn him over in his grave, which is already found, together with his family.
real person?yes, and a very good talker and leader.
tho i believe he was NOT the "son" of some kind of "god" i do believe that ONCE a really cool dude named Jesus did exist. He was just a really nice soul with an open mind and universal love.
Jesus is real person. He is always besides us, and He protects us from minor things, but cannot protect us from physical things. Heaven is real, but it is not on Earth, created by God. thank you. (actualy, what's really funny about this debate is that i am saying no AND yes. What's also funny is that i also debate about it with my friends. I seem to hear people talk about it wherever i go. strange.odd.)
I belive in him because.................. if he was not on earth we would all be dead.People belive that Jesus was god that came back as Jesus.People that dont think that hes not real,but I belive in Jesus people who dont think hes real doesnt know what it is like to be loved by him.So when they dont belive in him dont get loved by him and the more they dont get loved by him the more they dont belive in him.Every one should belive in him because he is our lord the is our savyor.He will love us no matter what,and the people who doesnt belive in him will not be loved by him!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
There is proof that Jesus exists in historical texts other than the bible -- Whenever we date a paper, we pay homage to Christainity with Before Christ and Ano Domini (I know it's spelled wrong)
... except they didn't start using AD and BC until around 500 years after this god decided to immaculately impregnate a magically holy virgin for the purpose of a human sacrifice some 30 years down the line...
and that it was the Catholic church that decided we should begin calling it AD and BC...
But sure, I suppose that's as good a justification for insanity as any other.
btw, who's we? Only Christians do that, and all scientific and non-denominational papers are dated Common Era or Before Common Era (CE, BCE)
Where? And was it Jesus Christos or Julius Caesar? What books could you site some other "proofs?" I think most anthropologists, archaeologists, historians and even theologans would love your insight.
I DO BELIEVE JESUS did EXIST and was a REAL PERSON I ALSO BELIEVE NOBODY has the right, to SPEAK FOR THE DEAD. But,b b but You say," they say, he say, what they, said he said" are so many accounts YES according to yourself and the like . im just hoping the truth be revealed and we humbly face the mysteries that yet remain concealed.Then oh what joy ,to know the truth .but til i see for myself ..the proof of proof of the truth.til then i wll not preach i will not boast the written word of another host. FOR shallow is man ,on there own head, to try to talk for the dead.DACEY NOV 2009.
Yes, at least two contemporary "Roman" historians wrote about him: Josephus and Tacitus. Although there may be evidence that Josephus' writings were tampered with by the early Church, Tacitus also mentions him. Unlike Josephus' writings, Tacitus was very critical of Christ and the Christians (much unlike Josephus' references), leading most scholars to believe Tacitus. Moreover, although not the most accurate Roman historian, Tacitus is seen as one of the most trustworthy.
to have a valid opinion it must be based on some kind of an authority or fact. most ancient religious books ( bible,quar'an),mention Jesus,so hes existence could be easily prov en for religious people,but people who do not share that religion might disagree,so they should be asked on what they're arguments are based?(which authority?).the existence of Jesus is certainly not the problem,the issue is our concept of Jesus, is he that supernatural person? if so that would invalid his existence as a real person. thus the definition of person is a socially active human being ,which indeed he was based on the ancient texts. Jesus Christ was indeed a real person but the concept that we now share about him might the source of our disagreement.does he have a human essence or a divine one? both questions wouldn't invalid hes existence as a real person, but would create a new problematic.
Of course he was a real person. To compromise for other religions, i will be broad so dont get too mad. He was a real person, whether or not he rose from the dead, i dont know. But there r records of him being there and dying.
Yes! Jesus Christ is a real person. There are records other then the Bible that record Jesus Christ the Jesus Christ that made miracles and died on the cross for our sins.
Duh, even the most Christian hating atheists know that he was a real person. This is a question of historical ignorance. No offense, i'm no history buff, but if you answered 'No' you don't know the first thing about historical investigation
There are several historical accounts of Jesus, none of them written when he was alive. Certainly there are some grounds to doubt his historicity. While I personally believe that Jesus was a real person, I don't deny there is good reason to doubt this.
Yes there are scholors that will dispute this but i'm not a fan of their inconsistancy when they do so. A lot of scholars will support the existance of people from the past who are way less documented then Jesus' existance. I think with Christianity people can't help but be all or nothing for or against it. If they hate religion they won't even give historical credit where credit is due. For instance you might as well trust absolutely NOTHING from the ancient world if you doubt the Romans crucified Jesus. But yet you'll have scholars who deny the crucifixion, then turn around and defend the validity of events in the Trojan War when it was only documented by Homer hundreds of years after the war (as an example). As for me I grew tired of denying that i'm pretty much half a christian, i see good arguements on both sides of the fence. I often find myself saying "That athiest does make a damn good point on that one" or "I can't grasp the inconsistancy in that biblical passage" etc. I wish everyone was fair and consistant
Yes there was Matthew Mark Luke and John all wrote what they saw and what he did on this earth. Luke was the most descriptive because he was a doctor and doctors are really discriptive.
It became somewhat fashionable to deny the historical existence of Jesus Christ starting in the mid to late 1960s. Little did the buying public realize, but this was nothing new. In fact, during the revolutionary period including the French Revolution of 1789, more than a few books in the exact same genre started to circulate underground due to censors. What I find fascinating are those deluded fools who actually contemplate the possibility that, except for themselves (the genius skeptic and doubter) everyone for the past 2,000 years has been wrong and Jesus never existed. Give me a break and, by the way, whatever you're smoking I'll have some too.
this topic is too vague we have believers and non believers is anybody really going to win this topic. Lets talk about Barney being a real dinosaur. This is not a win debate
Yes he was because he died on the cross for our sins and rose from the dead. Also Matthew,Mark,Luke,and John from four different people who saw and described on what Jesus did on this earth.
no one should doubt his existence because multiple NON religious historical texts have said he is real. it is wether he is divine which people may doubt. just out of curiosity is there any reason to doubt his existence? why would someone make him up and how could they pull off turning it into what is currently the largest religion on the planet.
YES he was real how dare even think of that ? how did the heavens and the earths rise ? something created us if you don't believe in him get your trunks on cause you will be swimming in the lake of fire!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
YES, SOMETHING DID CREATE US. THAT IS NOT THE QUESTION. I AM ASKING IF JESUS CHRIST WAS A REAL PERSON. STRANGE, I NEVER KNEW CHRISTIANITY WAS ABOUT THREATNING TO BURN SOMEONE IN A "lake of fire" WHENEVER THEY ASK A QUESTION.
Though I do not know that person and I have no reason to do this, I would like to apologize on his/her behalf. Jesus Christ was about loving thy neighbor and turning the other cheek. He didn't scream at the Pharisees that they would burn in a lake of fire whenever they questioned him or his teachings. He spoke with wisdom and eloquence.
"I dare you to think"! That was a good one.
For those on here wanting to judge or condemn people for questioning the existence or the divinity of Christ, you should be ashamed of yourselves. Even Mother Theresa struggled with her faith, she admitted that in an interview before her death. If you have never questioned your faith, then you really don't have faith. What you have is called brainwashing.
THANK YOU FOR YOUR CONTRIBUTION. I BELIEVE THAT IT WAS ANTHONY LUDOVICI THAT SAID IN FAIRNESS TO THE INFIDEL, HE AT LEAST HAS QUESTIONED HIS FAITH AND WILL HAVE MORE RELIGIOUS OBSERVATION THAN SOMEONE WHO BLINDLY SWALLOWS THE FAITH THEY WERE BORN INTO.
I AM NOT HERE TO OFFEND CHRISTIANS. I JUST SEEK THE OPINION OF OTHERS AND ASK QUESTIONS TO TRY FIND THE TRUTH...... THAT MAY SCARE SOME PEOPLE. ONCE AGAIN, THANK YOU.
You are most welcome. I hope that horrible reaction to your comment will not leave you with a bad opinion of Christians. We are not all like that.
Thank you for the reference to Ludovici, I like that. When you struggle with your faith and question the things you were raised to believe, it can be very difficult, to say the least. I have been on my journey to knowledge and understanding for a long time. Answers are not easy to come by.
how blasphermous are you? you sound like you wrote the law itself. i believe that there was a really cool dude by the name of jesus who was somewhat of an ecentric for his time and who was not afraid to stand up for his moral beliefs and someone who was also accepting of diversity of free will .but i never imagined that he was so condemnig as you. typical christian - anything but like like the jesus you all portray.
I was lost in the Darkest parts of my own wicked ways, spiraling down a path of destruction leading me away from His Almighty ways, and all the while im going down ONLY ONE, He could save me. No matter how far i looked on this lowly planet, i never once found a soul who could manage, to show me the love that i truly needed, because on this planet aint nothing but hate and contempt have been breeded. the lowly snake slithering as he goes through the towns of man looking for lowly lowly souls, to feed on so that it could plant it's evil seeds, and so that throughout the generations nothing but evil and hate we could recieve, but those where the ways of the past, my brothers and sisters. the devil had a hold of us and he managed through our parents, down through the generations His ways have been lost, and because of the us, the devil has turned and tossed, We can All be saved, all we need is Thanksgiving, to the One who Above, for All of His Givings. The devils trying to stop me right now as i speak, but Faithful to the Lord and willit He, that i may be meek. Because it is He not i that gives you this message but it is The One that we All should seek. i know that it is hard to find Rest, as we all go through this test some call a game, every single last one of us, probably, training to gain and retain our fame. But That is not what this life is about, i have a Strong feeling that we are All getting our Water from the wrong wrong spout. because thats all the devil has for us is a little bit, of pleasure, then comes the pain. steady feeding our bodies what i see now Is Insane. because ya'll hafto see that we are all carnally minded, and This is the reason The LORD, us he has blinded, binding, ourselves to our own flesh, so that eventually we would All fail this Test. but know that The Lord, He loves us, and wishes nothing but the best, and all He wants is for us to Love Him all the while through this Test. some wonder why we see nadoes and quakes, He needs ya'll to know that its Ya'lls souls that He is trying to shake. and bake if you will, so the devil may not have his fill, to letchya'll know that there is NONE like that ALMIGHTY AND ALL POWERFULL ONE. i say full because Hes filled with Love, like None that we have seen on this lowly earth, but now that i have SEEN, my Eyes have been UnBlinded, and now it is He, He who signs this, letter so maybe that some of Ya'll could listen, and Maybe get the Message that He is trying to dish, out of His spout, so that ya'll might be fed, with all of His Love, His Water, And His Bread. Don't for a second think any of Ya'll are living, All of ya'll are dead and for the devil are you "living" as i sit here and do this all of the "dome" just know that it is Not me and that this is His tomb. He is singing through me in these words and this song, so that maybe one day we All can be free all the day long, and ya'll can say its cheesy if ya'll want, but just know the devil in you he does flaunt x) i had to stop and show ya'll how i felt about that one, cuz its the truth, and right now i have a Strong feeling He is swinging harder than that brother Babe Ruth, or ballin harder than micheal jordan, and in this song he Is Playing His Accordian. Ya'll just need to know that He is our Guardian, and right now im flying Higher than any single air jordan, because my love i gave to Him more than any of Ya'll so i guess i can say more than them. But dont getit twizted like boi's if ya'll know, that me and moreover Him, have a lot to show. we are all brothers and sisters, but i should call us the missers, because we all fail to see the smaller things in this world, without even thinking twice, what truly brings a man alot of happiness or to see the pain that ALOT of us have in us. i know that we are all hurting on the inside, and for ya'll who say we dont, Boi, you know that is a lie, because only with Him and not that evil leech from down south, can we truly fly. higher than the highest of trees or the tallest of mountains, But in Him we Have to trust, so that We may Drink From The One and Only True fountain, only because of Him can i do this for days, and its Because i gave Him my love, thanksgiving, and praise. so now that i have seen what it is truly to be Man, Men of God, all these hater out there who bout to say something aint nuthing more than sod. sorry if it dont make sense, just know that me and Him the latter first, We are just trying to give His children, ya'll some mother lovin cents. forgive me if i pause for no longer am i a vulgar man life is just a beach, and Now, He is playing in the sand, hopefully in the minds of the young, the daughters and sons, i have my holster, and now the Lord is my Gun, Shining Brighter, than a million suns, times two, because His love is True, actually make that twenty twenty, because He is aplenty, in me in you and All, i just hope that ya'll can hear His call, so that maybe that ya'll may not fall, into the Pit, but right now i can say the devil is probably having a fit, of anxiety cuz he is losing his "children" just know that we are God's and with me He has been pilfering, in my mind day and night, as i have been in my room trying to stay out of sight, of ya'll because all it seems like to me, that nothing to ya'll it would please, more, than to see one of your own fellow brother get shot and fall. when i look around me i dont see any real love, this evil surrounds me, but Now i DO NOT CARE, because the Lord, THE LORD, HE has found me. so now ya'll cannot touch, because with His love, im about to bust. with loving Faith and Trust, i put in Him, so that i can be led away from this life of sin, and Now that i have His Trust, my brotha's and sista's, not just the black ones, comeon now, that just is not a must, there is no such thing man, all that is, is nothing more than an evil thought, brought up in vain, so that maybe a man's soul, that leech, can be bought. Quit being evil, for it is Love, that should be sought, out so once again we may be fed from His Spout, for only He can give us what we need so that in the end we may succeed. my brothers and sisters all we need to do is Believe, and then, Anything, together, WE CAN ACHIEVE. this is an ode to ya'll so in hopes once again that ya'll may hear The Call, and will not fall, so one day me, ya'll, and The Almighty,Perfect, like a prefect without the er, Omnipotent, and Patient ONE, that together we May All Ball. and they keep telling me to stop, but i just cant my brothers me and Him are headed to the top, and right now i got The Heart Of A Lion, King, and pray tell me my brothers and sisters who are reading, what single Beast can stop that king? of the jungle we are running but with Him we can be free. out into the open pasture we all can roam, just know this is not me, and that this is His Tomb. its wierd how they're spelled alike but do not rhyme, im talking bout bomb my brothers, and its One of a Kind. in the Hopes that this petty rhyme, can help lead the black sheep, away from the Blind, being themselves, for who? tell me can save them from that? if you dont answer right then your a part of this blight that runs rampant through the streets, evil im talking about and all it wants to do is eat, your souls because it is angry at the Living God, hahahaha for it is nothing more than a sod, on His Cleat as He is Running, Hoping that some of these Words, hit you right in the stomach, and make you sick, but not you, im talking about the evil you, for we are all children of God, but we have made ourselves nothing more than a sod =( i say with a heavy heart, because all this time we have been playing the devil, his part, but with Him it is nothing but a fart, because He Forgives, and Only Through Him may we EVER, get the chance to Live, and im not talking about on the earth, im talking about another, and maybe one day you can see and i can Truly call you my Brother, for there is Life in Death, but it is only gained through this life which is a test, just know that when we die, if you have lived righteously, on that day you will Fly, for the Lord will Breathe His Breath in you when you die and like i said before You Will Fly, but not if you keep eating from the devil's table, for you can only eat from one, and i hope its Not the devil's table. for if we Eat from Him, we can All go back into His Stable, and only in doing that can we Ever truly be stable, only only if, we are eating from, The Living God's Table. and for ya'll who are sitting at your computers steadily dissin Him, i pray for you, because it you are missin, Him and the bigger picture, just know right now im taking a Big Gulp From His Ultimate Pitcher, not one from the MLB, and if you are listening then i pray that you sea, i mean see, but with Him we can fly over the one before, and higher than mike, dunk it in, right for a score, but not for 2 for it is for 3, because He is Holy in me, but atm holy in you, because you missing some parts, we all need to change, so that we may play His Part, that He intended from the Beginning, because only With Him can we ever be winning, but hahahaha not as long as we are sinning. for that is not the way that we was meant to walk, With Him we was mean to Walk and Talk. once again i say this way i, used to, but we choose to live, is insane in the membrane, but He is using me as His Template, lol or templar whichever you prefer, just know that He is Prefect, ha just without the errrr. as i sit here steadily dissin em i mean the demons in the minds of the children of the One and Only, God Who Is Kind, i hope that they depart, so we can All gaze upon The Divine, not like wine or watch, i aint lil wayne, just know that i feel like im the only one who is sane. because i AM NOT PERFECT, do not get the wrong message for that would hurt me, only He is, and He just wants some love from His Kids, but for some odd reason... we still choose to do the evil leeches bids, for i feel he has sucked to much from us, all of our blood, i mean soul, it has tucked from us, and right now He is aiming at it with a Big Ol' Blunderbuss. to shoot it and unleech it, from His Children's Soul's so one day maybe we can gaze upon, That Wonderful City Of Gold, and dont letit peak your in ter ests, for if you do your not getting whats bests, from this test that He has beset, for our minds to ponder and think on, maybe in some of the hearts out there this message is shining, for He is a Beacon of Light, to shine out all the evils, and end this ugly, hateful blight, that courses through our vains, that nasty garbage that makes us feel insane, because no one is living right, and for That NONE is sane. you can talk and sit there and chatter, but i pray and hope that none get fatter, and im not talking because of mcdonalds, im talking about your ego and pride, because We Alll NEED to push that aside, all we seem to do is breed hate and contempt, sitting there looking for another hurt sould to feed on, thinking it makes us content, but just know NOW people, lolol all your doing is letting the devil be your PIMP! ha ha ha i think that really funny, because in the words of man that just makes ya'll some ho's, and please forgive my trespasses my sisters and brothers, for my vulgar words, because i Did Not mean to hurt, He's just trying to keep our faces from being rubbed in the dirt. but it really shouldnt matter because we are mud, and from One we all came, so can i not call ya'll blood??? nah im not talking about them two glock shotta's, im talking bout from The One Who Has Always Got Us, not us as in the navy, i mean us as in the ones who might sit on that bus, the one going to school and to the ones who drool in class, and all of us who needs a kick in the, pause, ya'll know what i mean, im just sitting here trying not be obscene, all im trying to do is get the bigger picture, through ya'll minds so that maybe one day, we can All WALK IN THE LORDS WAY. forgive me if i make any of ya'll mad, if i do know that i Am sad, but how about ya'll just go to the store and go and grab on of them happy hefty bags, you know i meant glad if you didnt you are simple, and forgive me as i sit here and bust this pimple, lol sorry that was nasty just know that i didnt, and know that we are all fake, and its time for some rhino plasty, or however its spelled im just hoping some hearts will melt, like the plastic we are, and become melded into flesh, as i sit here and type in this Soul Food test, for if ya'll can't hear me then your hearts are so cold, forgive me as i trespass, because, uhm, i Am not trying to be bold, im just tryna through some fia atcha hearts, in the hopes that you may leave the Dark, ness not loch just in case thats watchu thought, all you gotta do is leave your flesh behind, and know that He is the one who Should Be Sought, out so we can drank From His Spout, cuz the Lord Knows, man it has been a drought. we are all so thirsty, but in order to be filled its The Lord who must come firsty x) just know that me and Him are going Stooopid, and for those who are real maaan i thoughtchu knew it. and if you dont i pray you haven't already blew it, up i mean your ego, like a balloon, just know right now i feel like taz boi, yup them looney toones, or tunes whichever you prefer, just know that He is Prefect, just without the err. and i say pre because He was always here, yes before you and me, but with Him i wanna letchu know that we can all be as pure, and as white as the snow, just like powder we can all be melted, i mean melded into the beings we were meant to be, so one day we may fly free as a dove, Right over the sea, so that we all can reach New Jerusalem, yup just right where we was all meant to be, that is the Golden City for those who did not, know, im just hoping that one day we can All be as pure as the snow, because the evil has taunted and flaunted and given us a show, to peak i mean perk up our ears and it, that leech i mean, gave us nothing but fears, fears of ourselves and one another, fears from our sisters and daughter, Father, and brothers, but we have a right to Fear the Living God, because to Him we have all become a sod, He is sorrowful and cries as we follow, the evil being, who was never meant to be followed, and i felt His pain at one point in time, yes i Am talking About the Divine, we both cried together, in my room, because of the little things we miss, something just as small as, a heartfelt kiss... for it is the little things that bring us the greatest joy, not some diamond chain, or a, wind up toy, the biggest thing of all that should, is His Love, should bring us the Greatest joy, in the world, for thats all it is man just cars and noise, all the long going our way, Missing the sweetest noise, zes ya'll know what i mean, im talking about the One who is Never obscene, for He is Just And Right, in each and every single way, and for our sins my borhters and sisters, we have to pay, but do not fret for it is never to late, I think we all need to call upon The Divine, and we should All go on a date, do not worry for on this date there is no rape, or murder, or hate, for that is of the devil, and Your Soul it will take, there is no worries once you follow Him, we should all be hand in hand as we walk down this path, called, life Never having to worry about no pain or strife, or for a bigger picture His Wrath, but ONLY IF WE DRINK FROM HIS PITCHER. for The All Powerful and Righteous Wrath, only comes when you stray from His Path, it is there to show us our wrongs...can you feel His Soul as i sit here and Sing His song? and with Him i will NEVER fall, because with my Brother, I will always Hear His Call. i say we but it is Him, who say these words to in the hopes, that those who have an Ear to listen may never Fall, into the Pit, all you have to do is have Faith, Follow The Ten, Believe, and never EVER Quit, for in order to gain His All Perfect and Good Graces, we have to eliminate ALL the Hate and evil, in all sorts of places, i have a feeling this song was wrote long before, just in His mind and now in mine, and i sing His song in the Hopes, that you follow Him and not any of these "popes" for no hope lies in them, lol and if you truly think aboutit that actually rhymed, just know that im thinking of Him, foremost, but ya'll too as i steadily write This Rhyme, it comes from above yup, Straight From the Divine, in the Hopes that one day ya'll can SEE, exactly it was that we was missing, so we can All fly over the sea. Man this thing is long but i should Say God, because this is His Rhyme, and not from a sod, like me or you, if you real you can feel its True, as His Sword aims at the hearts of His good, flying Straight and Through, lol i mean True, but them if you can follow my friend, all we gotta do is sing Praises and Thanksgiving to Him, until the very end, and give Him all of our love, Because WITHOUT HIM, ha There WOULD BE NO LOVE, all there would be is pain and suffering, and i hope that the ones who are, suffer, i mean acating, Might actually stop and take the time to sit there and be debating, against the devil of course, cuz all it wants to do is, lead us, right, or left, but straight off our course. Lord Please Forgive me, if i am being coarse just know that i am your back, and You Are My Horse, lol ya'll might think He's heavy but He's really not, and i Love Him till Death, i mean Life, cuz i have found It, but back to the point, because i HE HAS TAUGHT, never went to church or none of that, maybe when i was younger but none of that, for our minds our are churches, ha gotit backwards but i feel as tall as the burches, talking bout them trees man im over the seas man, just know i cant, wait, My Father, until You Kick Over My Can Man x) aw man i thoughit was funny, because he's One Cool Dude, and i am His, Bunny, i mean Collie, and know that as i, i mean He, but as i bark, that i have a Strong feeling, that i am playing my Part, or His i prefer the latter but the choice is yurs, because it is His Puzzle, and i am the last part, i cant be for certain because the Knowledge is His, but im just trying to bring His Black Sheep back, you know i mean His KIDS, He thoughtit was funny, But ya'll best Believe that He NOR i the first comes first, but neither one of us is No, pause, Dummy, lol but if you choose you can beat and bite, whatever you do just know it is out of spite, and i dont capitilize because its an evil word, just know me and HIM, are trying to end this wrongful blight, and saying these words i Hope that maybe, just maybe some can be given the Sight, that HE intended us to have, right, from Go, talking bout monopoly,lol but no no more, from the start maaaan all HE ever wanted was us to give our heart, which is HIS, because He gave to us, All that is HIS, HE just Wanted someone to talk to man, thats why HE made HIS Kids, HE was all alone, and then HE built, a Beautiful place for us, and HIM, to walk and talk all the while, just laughing and talking, seeing eachother smile =) because HE is our FATHER, He's not as mean ha as ya'll would believe, just know that HE TRULY IS ONE BENEVOLENT KING. lol ha ha i think this is funny, He knows what im talking about, cuz this is all of the top of the dome with barely a second to pause, Just Know the THE LION KING, Has Opened HIS Claws, Blessed be the children who took the time to listen, to the message that a, and The King is steadily dishin, i say a because i am one too, but know that im a servant, and from a Seed i did Grew, i dont care if it makes no sense to ya'll because i have heard the Lords Call, and they, they know who they are, are always listening, and as He types, through, me i have a feeling they are about to call, Prayer is the Best Wireless Connection X) aint no service down here got that type of Connection, i just hope that i get to see some of ya'll at that intersection, i mean Crossroads, bone thugz n harmony, they said it first, man thats the song man and if you feel their soul, then maybe you should hurt, because those bois on the streets back in the day, all they was doing was searching for some Peace, but in the streets, the oppressors, following the devil, have no love for us in the slums, just know that we All have a Holster and God Is our Gun, we dont need no metal, for The Lord our issues HE will settle, all you gotta do is Have some Faith, saying this in hope that some dont see any wraiths, talking demons people come now and please listen, as the Lord spits his song and these Words HE is dishin, out yup you getting it word of mouf, lol or mouth whichever you prefer just DONT follow that lowly snake, yup the one down south, it might try and offer pleasure and happiness butits all fake, HA what do ya'll expect from a lowly snake? remeber eve as she sat under that tree? sitting there thinking and feeling the breeze? the snake spoke in her Ear temptation it did bring, and after teel me WHO did she fear? she had a split second of happiness and thats all it can give, and after that she felt the WRATH which is ONLY HIS, lol i hope that ya'll see, the way we live people, it just wasn't meant to be, i have a feeling that there all up there laughing, with, not at me as i type out His message, and i pray ALMIGHTY FATHER, THE ONES WHO HAVE AN EAR TO LISTEN PLEASE FATHER PLEASE LET THE HEAR. and the ones who dont i pray you dont hit him hard, maybe just a little tap, just like Babe Ruth, on that baseball card x) Peace be with you my sisters and brothers, just know that HIS LOVE IS LIKE NO OTHER, GOD BLESS ALL WHO FINISHED, AND I PRAY YOUR SOULS NEVER, DIMINISH. ONE HEART IS ALL, AND WITH THAT HEART WE CAN NEVER FALL, lol i said i was finished, but i dont think HE is as you can tell this words are not mine, THEY COME FROM THE UPPER BEING, yup THE DIVINE!!! i think im going to cut Him short and please Forgive me, because i know HE could go all day, BECAUSE I CAN FEEL HIM IN ME.
Was there some guy named "Jesus"? Perhaps. There were probably many. There may have even been a number of miraculous "saviors" during that time.
Was the "Jesus" from the Bible a real person? Almost certainly not. The Bible's writers and compilers probably took a large number of stories about a number of people and shoved them together into one person. Not only do the Bible's accounts of what Jesus was and did contradictory at times, but there are large gaps spread throughout the text.
Non-Biblical sources mention people named "Jesus" from the area, but do not back up any of the Bible's claims of who Jesus was and did.
Alot of myths centered on a single person are usually condensed versions of deeds, hearsay, myths, and legends spread throughout communities and folklore. The pagan cultures did this constantly: the Greek gods (such as Zeus, Hera, or Athena) had many contradictory tales told about them, and it has been found that many are the combination of many gods and goddesses. In some cases this was a result of conquest (assimilating local populations into the empire's religion), and in others it was just a way to keep religion under control, concise, and understandable.
The Bible's god "Yahwey" is actually an amalgamation of many ancient Hebrew gods from the various tribes. This is, of course, true of almost all current popular gods from Islam's Allah to Buddha and Vishnu.
1. History: By its most common definition, the word history now means "the past of mankind." Compare the German word for history -- Geschichte, which is derived from geschehen, meaning to happen. Geschichte is that which has happened (Gottschalk, Understanding History: A Primer of Historical Method, 41).
2. Historical Method: The process of critically examining and analyzing the records and survivals of the past is here called historical method. The imaginative reconstruction of the past from the data derived by that process is called historiography (the writing of history). By means of historical method and historiography (both of which are frequently grouped together simply as historical method) the historian endeavors to reconstruct as much of the past of mankind as he can (Gottschalk, Understanding History: A Primer of Historical Method, 48-49).
3. Scientific Method: ...related to measurement of phenomena and experimentation or repeated observation (McDowell, More Than A Carpenter, 33)
II. Your Points:
1. "Was there some guy named "Jesus"? Perhaps.
a. "There were probably many. There may have even been a number of
miraculous "saviors" during that time"
1a. "Was the "Jesus" from the Bible a real person? Almost certainly not".
a. "The Bible's writers and compilers probably took a large number of stories
about a number of people and shoved them together into one person".
b. "Not only do the Bible's accounts of what Jesus was and did contradictory
at times, but there are large gaps spread throughout the text".
c. "Non-Biblical sources mention people named "Jesus" from the area, but do
not back up any of the Bible's claims of who Jesus was and did."
d. "Alot of myths centered on a single person are usually condensed versions
of deeds, hearsay, myths, and legends spread throughout communities
and folklore".
1. "The pagan cultures did this constantly: the Greek gods (such as
Zeus, Hera, or Athena) had many contradictory tales told about
them, and it has been found that many are the combination of many
gods and goddesses. In some cases this was a result of conquest
(assimilating local populations into the empire's religion), and in
others it was just a way to keep religion under control, concise, and
understandable.
2. "The Bible's god "Yahwey" is actually an amalgamation of many ancient Hebrew gods from the various tribes. This is, of course, true of almost all current popular gods from Islam's Allah to Buddha and Vishnu".
III. Introduction:
First of all, I want to say that I appreciate how you pointed out some factors that must be considered which really are part of the historical method. These are some of the factors that you alluded to:
1. Non-Biblical sources that would corroborate with the New Testament
Documents.
2. The development of myths, legends and folklore.
3. Credibility of the eyewitness account (truthfulness)
4. Looking for contradictions of the documents.
Since we are dealing with the question concerning Jesus' historical existence, "we must apply the same standard whether the literature under investigation is secular or religious" (McDowell, More Than a Carpenter, 33). That is, let's not apply one standard for the secular and a different one for the Bible. Otherwise, that would be considered being "irrational bias".
III. Rebuttal:
1.By your own admission, there are possibilities of said name (Jesus) and
being "...a number of miraculous "saviors" during that time".
1a. Rebuttal: "Was the "Jesus" from the Bible a real person? Almost certainly not”
a. "The Bible's writers and compilers probably took a large number of stories
about a number of people and shoved them together into one person".
a. Craig A. Evans, a Paizant distinguished professor of New Testament and director of the graduate program at Acadia Divinity College made this statement, "No serious historian of any religious or nonreligious stripe doubts that Jesus of Nazareth really lived in the first century and was executed under the authority of Pontius Pilate, the governor of Judea and Samaria. Though this may be common knowledge among scholars, the public may well not be aware of this" (Craig A. Evans, N.T. Wright, Jesus, the Final Days, 3). With that being said, it is important to understand what the genre, that is, what type of literature are the Gospels. It is narrative/biography. The writers focused mainly on the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus. They were eyewitnesses themselves of the life and teaching of Jesus or who related the account of the eyewitnesses of the actual events or teachings. Louis Gottschalk, former professor of history at the University of Chicago, made this statement in regards to the value of eyewitness, “A primary source is the testimony of an eyewitness, or of a witness by any other of the senses, or of a mechanical device like the dictaphone -- that is, of one who or that which was present at the events of which he or it tells (hereafter called simply eyewitness)” (Gottschalk, Understanding History: A Primer of Historical Method, 53).
b. "Not only do the Bible's accounts of what Jesus was and did contradictory at times, but there are large gaps spread throughout the text".
b. As previously mentioned, it is important to understand what genre or type of literature are the Gospels. It is narrative/biographical. It was pointed out that the writers’ main focus was on the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus. They were not intending to record every detail of Jesus’ life. It is equally important (in understanding the genre) that if you were going to do a comparative study of all four Gospels, “the Gospels falls naturally into two groups, the first three on one side, and the fourth Gospel by itself on the other “ (Bruce, The New Testament Documents, 27). Yet, “whatever difficulties some scholars have felt, most readers of the Gospels in all ages have been unaware of any fundamental discrepancy between the Christ who speaks and acts in the fourth Gospel and Him who speaks and acts in the Synoptics” (Bruce, The New Testament Documents, 59). Notice the word fundamental. That is, all four Gospels agree that Jesus died, buried, and resurrected; concerning His dual nature (deity and humanity), etc. Would it be possible to give examples concerning any “discrepancies” in what Jesus said and did as you allegedly claim?
c. "Non-Biblical sources mention people named "Jesus" from the area, but do not back up any of the Bible's claims of who Jesus was and did."
c. By your own admission, you stated, “"Non-Biblical sources mention people named "Jesus" from the area…”. However, the other part, “but do not back up any of the Bible's claims of who Jesus was and did” needs to cross-examined. There are early Rabbinical writings and others that confirm that it was not just any man named Jesus, but the same Jesus of the Bible:
Early Jewish Source
1. The Mishnah: A collection of oral Jewish commentaries and traditions that forms the basic part of Talmud, compiled ca. A.D. 200 (Kaiser, The Old Testament Documents, 228).
“Jesus of Nazareth was a transgressor in Israel, who practiced magic, scorned the words of the wise, led the people astray, and said he had not come to destroy the law but to add to it. He was hanged on Passover Eve for heresy and misleading the people. His disciples, of whom five are named, healed the sick in his name” (Bruce, The New Testament Documents, 103). The Mishnah confirms the reliability of the writers of the Gospels eyewitness account concerning Jesus of Nazareth:
a. The identity of Jesus of Nazareth.
b. Accused as a transgressor.
c. In a negative way acknowledged the miracles, healings, etc.
d. Jesus’ statement of fulfilling the law and the prophet.
e. His confrontations with the religious leaders.
g. His crucifixion.
f. Five of Jesus’ disciples were named.
Keep in mind that in the Gospel account, the religious leaders were also (hostile) eyewitnesses and they both heard and seen Him. Gottschalk argues, that, “conformity or agreement with other known historical or scientific facts is often the decisive test of evidence, whether of one or more witnesses” (Gottschalk, Understanding History: A Primer of Historical Method, 168).
d. "Alot of myths centered on a single person are usually condensed versions
of deeds, hearsay, myths, and legends spread throughout communities
and folklore"
1. "The pagan cultures did this constantly: the Greek gods (such as
Zeus, Hera, or Athena) had many contradictory tales told about
them, and it has been found that many are the combination of many
gods and goddesses. In some cases this was a result of conquest
(assimilating local populations into the empire's religion), and in
others it was just a way to keep religion under control, concise, and
understandable"
2. "The Bible's god "Yahwey" is actually an amalgamation of many ancient
Hebrew gods from the various tribes. This is, of course, true of almost all
current popular gods from Islam's Allah to Buddha and Vishnu".
d 1) Martin Hengel, a German New Testament scholar and Emeritus Professor of New Testament and Early Judaism at the University of Tübingen, argues that, "The heart of the Christian message, which Paul described as 'word of the cross', ran counter not only to the Roman political thinking, but to the whole ethos of religion in ancient times..." (Hengel, Crucifixion: In the ancient world and the folly of the cross, 5). That is, pagan religions in ancient times would not even associate their heroes, sons of god, and definitely no saviors died in the cross. So to compare pagan religions and their myths with the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus is completely ignoring the differences in religious beliefs and culture.
d 2) "The Bible's god "Yahwey" is actually an amalgamation of many ancient Hebrew gods from the various tribes. This is, of course, true of almost all current popular gods from Islam's Allah to Buddha and Vishnu".
d2) YHWH (Yahweh): (Exodus 3:14) Basically means "He who is," or "I am who I
am," and declares the divine self-existence" (Unger's Bible Dictionary 409).
"The Jewish Encyclopedia (ed., Isidore Singer, Funk and Wagnalls, Vol. 1, 1904) indicates that the translation of YHWH by the word "Lord" can be traced to the Septuagint." About the pronounciation of the Shem ha Metorash, 'the distictive name' YHWH, there is no authentic information." Beginning from the Hellenestic period, the name was reserved for us in the Temple" (McDowell, Evidence That Demand A Verdict, 99). That would be completely inaccurate against Judaism and Jewish history. Granted that they have in their history turned from the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob for other gods, but those gods were from their neighboring countries and not their own invention. There is no evidence for such an alleged statement.
Secondly, as far as favorable credibility for the eyewitness account of the Gospels, Gottschalk argues that there are five, "certain conditions especially favorable to truthfulness, and students of evidence easily recognize them" (Gottschalk, Understanding History: A Primer of Historical Method, 161). Here are the five:
A. Conditions Favorable to Credibility:
1. When the purport of a statement is a matter of indifference to the witness,
he is likely to be unbiased.
2. More dependably, when a statement is prejudicial to a witness, his dear
ones, or his causes, it is likely to be truthful.
3. Often, too, facts are so well-known, so much matters of common
knowledge, that the witness would be unlikely to be mistaken or to lie about
them.
4. Even when the fact in question may not be well-known, certain kinds of
statements are both incidental and probable to such a degree that error or
falsehood seems unlikely.
5. When the thought patterns and preconceptions of a witness are known and
yet he states something out of keeping with them -- in other words, if
statements are contrary to the witness's expectations or anticipations, they
have a high degree of credibility.
So far, the eyewitness account of the Gospels meets points 2-3, and 5 which is very excellent. Here are the following evidences for the eyewitness accounts credibility (truthfulness):
2nd: Favorable Condition: Martyrdom of the Eyewitnesses (12 Apostles).
"Eleven of those men died martyrs' death because they stood solid for two
truths: Christ's deity and His resurrection. These men were tortured and
flogged, and they finally suffered death by some of the cruelest methods then
known":
1. Peter, originally called Simon, was crucified.
2. Andrew was crucified.
3. James, son of Zebedee, was killed by the sword.
4. John, son of Zebedee, died a natural death.
5. Philip was crucified.
6. Bartholomew was crucified.
7. Thomas was killed by a spear.
8. Matthew was killed by the sword.
9. James, son of Alphaeus, was crucified.
10. Thaddaeus was killed by arrows.
11. Simon, the zealot, was crucified. (McDowell, More Than a Carpenter
, 57)
3rd. Favorable Condition: Common Knowledge of the Death, Burial, and
Resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth.
"The New Testament accounts of Christ were being circulated within the
lifetimes of His contemporaries. These people whose lives overlapped His
could certainly confirm or deny the accuracy of the accounts. In advocating
their case for the Gospel, the apostles had appealed (even when confronting
their most severe opponents) to common knowledge concerning Jesus"
(McDowell, More Than a Carpenter, 49-50). Here are some of the examples of
that:
a. Acts 2:22
"Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested
by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did
through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know"
b. Acts 26:24-26
"Now as he thus made his defense, Festus said with a loud
voice, “Paul, you are beside yourself! Much learning is driving you
mad!”But he said, “I am not mad, most noble Festus, but speak the
words of truth and reason. For the king, before whom I also speak
freely, knows these things; for I am convinced that none of these
things escapes his attention, since this thing was not done in a
corner.
c. 1 Corinthians 15:1-8
"Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to
you, which also you received and in which you stand, by which also
you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—
unless you believed in vain. For I delivered to you first of all that
which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the
Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He rose again the
third day according to the Scriptures, and that He was seen by
Cephas, then by the twelve. After that He was seen by over five
hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain to the
present, but some have fallen asleep. After that He was seen by
James, then by all the apostles. Then last of all He was seen by me
also, as by one born out of due time"
So, if what they were saying about Jesus' death, burial and resurrection including His teachings and actions were inaccurate in details (if there was no common knowledge or agreement), there would have been a correction from both their hostile eyewitnesses and the disciples. Josh McDowell quotes Lawrence J. McGinley of Saint Peter's College on his "comments on the value of hostile witnesses in relationship to recorded events", in his book, More Than a Carpenter: "First of all, eyewitnesses of the events in question were still alive when the tradition had been completely formed; and among those eyewitnesses were bitter enemies of the new religious movement. Yet the tradition claimed to narrate a series of well-known deeds publicly taught doctrines at a time when false statements could, and would, be challenged" (McDowell, More Than a Carpenter, 51).
5th Favorable Condition: Statements are contrary to the witness's expectations
or anticipations.
The twelve apostles were Jewish men who had expectations and anticipations that were typical of the Jews in the first century concerning the Messiah among other important things. Here are some evidences:
1. Crucifixion among the Jews
Hengel writes, "...the cross never became the symbol of Jewish suffering; the influence of Deutoronomy 21:23 made that impossible. So a crucified messiah could not be accepted either" (Hengel, Crucifixion: In the ancient world and the folly of the cross, 84).
a. Peter Rebuking Jesus' Prediction: Mark 8:31-33
"And He began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many
things, and be rejected by the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be
killed, and after three days rise again. He spoke this word openly. Then
Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him. But when He had turned
around and looked at His disciples, He rebuked Peter, saying, “Get behind
Me, Satan! For you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men"
Peter spoke in behalf of the disciples which clearly demonstrates that it was not expected. Evans explains what the apostles expected, "What then did they expect? They expected to sit at Jesus' right and left, that is, to form Israel's new government (Matt. 19:28; Mark 10:35-40; Luke 22:28-
2. The Resurrection among the Jews.
N.T. Wright, the Bishop of Durham in the Church of England, explains the Jewish belief in the resurrection, "The Jewish world...did hold out the possibility of resurrection, which can be observed in some of later Old Testament writings, especially in a passage like Daniel 12" and "Jews who believed in resurrection believed that it would occur on the last day when God made the new heavens and new earth. It would happen altogether. Nobody ever imagined that this final event would be anticipated in the case of one person in the present. No first-century Jew, prior to Easter, expected it to be anything other than that large scale, last minute, all people event. That is why when Jesus tells the disciples not to tell anyone about the transfiguration until the Son of Man is raised from the dead (Mark 9:9), they are very puzzled, because for them "this rising from the dead" (9:10) was not something that was going to happen to one person..."the resurrection" as far as they were concerned, ought to have been something happening to everybody, at the end" (Craig A. Evans, N.T. Wright, Jesus, the Final Days, 90). An example of that would be Martha's response to Jesus' statement about raising Lazarus from the dead, "I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day" (John 11:24).
IV. Conclusion
Jesus of Nazareth was indeed a real person and His death, burial, and resurrection are historical events that meet the criteria and therefore its a historical fact.
1. "Christ" implies divinity, and most certainly was not his real last name even if that person did walk and breath and all that. And since there's no such thing as a god, and since if there were he most certainly would not impregnate a virgin and demand that person be tortured to death for our sins later, Jesus Christ certainly never did exist.
2. I hate to break it to the DaVinci Code Christians who love to mix their history and faith into some pseudo logic insanity, but there is 0 evidence anywhere in the world about this person outside of the Bible... and please believe you Christians are looking all the time, you could have cured cancer with the effort put forth to find this elusive evidence.
3. There was never anyone named Jesus from that period. It was some other word that meant salvation or the way of something along those lines which was later mistranslated to Jesus. At any rate, that name was about as common as Michael, or David, every down and out woman wanted to believe their son was divine.
4. The entire story of Jesus is plagiarized from one of the Egyptian gods, from being born of a virgin, to being a carpenter, right down to being sacrificed for other people's sins. They are equally believable. Though if I were to believe one insanity or the other, the Egyptian gods were way cooler. Maybe I should start a church.
you can see dog shit too, but you dont neccecarily want to see it smell it or walk on it or eat off it and if god did exist i bet hed ,like most ,would be the first to say " I didnt do it"
You believe a magical daddy in the sky created everthing, but there is no proof of that.
I mean, what you say makes no more sense than if I said a mystical giant unicorn created the earth. That theory is backed up by just as much evidence as yours is.
What I believe is irrelevant. If I did believe that, there is an equal amount of proof for both. One sounds more ridiculous than the other only because we're used to it.
Belief always comes from nowhere originally. Otherwise it is knowledge.
If stories of Unicorns creating the Universe had been passed down for two thousand years, and someone made up a bunch of cute anectotes, and put them in a book, and called that book holy,
then a whole bunch of people would believe it.
Kind of like what happened with the real religions.
The fact that the universe is expanding is evidence of the big bang as well as background radiation and the residual temperature of the vacuum of space. These are all evidence of the theory YOU claim there is no proof of. Now, besides the fact that a book written 2000+ years ago, what proof do YOU have?
1. Talk about having your fact wrong, Christ does not imply divinity. Jesus Christ is son of God, immaculately conceived by the virgin Mary (note immaculate means "not impregnated" and a pregnant virgin).
2. Is there an argument here, do you have proof you are withholding? I believe in gravity and the sun, I don't float away and the world is lighted and warmed every day. No one has every touched the sun or illustrated gravity, it just is.
3. Unsubstantiated claim, support your claim with evidence not speculation. Do you have evidence of Alexander the Great or Attila the Hun?
4. Hieroglyphics translated much later, how could it be plagiarized. Jesus and the people of the time spoke Aramaic and few could read the written word. To further complicate the first version was translated to Greek first. Prophecy predates the bible and all predictions came true.
Maybe you should start a church, do you have anything worthwhile believing in?
1. Yes it does. The son of god is supposed to be divine, the christian faith believes him to be divine, and it certainly was not that person's last name even if he did exist.
2. You have proof of gravity and the sun. There's no proof of Jesus Christ.
3. Yes, there is evidence. There are multiple historical documents recording their existence. On the other hand, the only place Jesus Christ is found is the new testament, meanwhile no other historical documents contain any such person. On top of that, there is something to be gained by the religious to pretend that that person existed and to continue to insist upon his existence, while there is nothing to be gained by simply making up those other people.
4. All predictions only came true if you believe Jesus Christ was a messiah. Other than that exactly 0 predictions came true. And since even if that person ever existed, he certainly was not the son of god, then exactly 0 predictions came true. another thing to be noted, none, zero, zip, zilch of any of the new testament was written until at least 500 years after that person supposedly existed. And even these documents from 500 years after his existence, as you pointed out, have been translated and mistranslated and lost etc, many times. I mean, the religious are already trying to rewrite who the founders of this country were only a couple hundred years ago. What makes you think the religious would not have changed so much more about the guy from whom they derive their world influence?
I most certainly should not start a church. I'm against all religions, I think they do more harm than good, and they contribute significantly to the dumbing down of societies as a whole, as demonstrated by basically this entire debate.
i agree with so much of what you are saying.so very intelligent.although i have tagged yes in this debate it is only in regards to the existence of another human being.i was baptised a catholic and made my holy communion and at that young innocent and gullible age was romanced by it, believed and even preached the religion. I even wanted to be a nun when i grew up.Im so damn glad i didnt. now at the age of 37 after a whirlwind of a life full of hard factual experiences(theres been easy ones also)and after trying to find "god" through all the different religions, i have learnt there is no almighty powerful "god"as such. just a lot of frightened people hiding behind a cloak of faith.
Jesus was not a real person, but a ficticious character developed by the playwrite Aavid in ancient Rome. Aavid wrote this play to demonstrate the folly (with tounge in cheek) of the amassed power of then Octavian Augustus Cesar. The play was put on by slaves and was turned into a movement that swept accross the middle east being told from one slave to another. At one point, Jesus had in upwards of 6 different names, performed different miracles etc. The council came together for one reason to unify these different groups into one cohesive understanding. The original manuscripts where found and destroyed by the Vatican however one was found by Hypatia of Alexandria in the Library of Egypt (also known as the library of Alexadria) to which she was murdered in the street by an angry mob of christians at the behest of Biship Cyril who was then later named a saint. Another was believed to be held by the Knights Templar as leverage over the Vatican.
The "pagan" influence is real. The birth life and death of Jesus is a story of celestial events. For example, the Three Wise men following the brightest star in the east to the birth of the son of god is something that happens every year on december 24. The three stars that make up orions belt ( known as the "three wise men" line up directly with the brightest star in the eastern sky (sirius) to point to the sun as it ends its procession at its lowest point then beings its treck back up again. The days become longer and warmer. Hence, the three kings follow the brightest star in the east to the birth of the SUN. Jesus, from a pagan perspective, represents the age of Pisces and is symbolized as the fish. Moses, Aries (the ram) etc. You can consider him a solar messiah.
Nobody who wrote any of the gospels knew Jesus, these "stories" where all second and third hand knowledge and many of them where contradictory to one another. The idea of Jesus as a person and Christianity was a movement was also fostered and fed by the Roman Elite as it made it easier to keep the slaves under control as it brought into their world a concept they had never thought of before, Fate. Think of passages as "It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle, than a rich man to enter into the kingdom of heaven."
There are too many other messiah-like figures of other religions that predate Christianity that share Jesus's story down to the very last detail. His story is of the sun and the stars.
I read a chapter in the Qui'ran and there is mention of someone special was to come to earth and reveal to us of our Creator, and His love for us. I believe the Messiah was called Muhammad. The Jew didn't respect Him as a Deity. They just thought of Him as a prophet. But He was much more, whether His name was Jesus, that I struggle with, seeing that, that name is a Roman name. In case you all didn't know, Egyptian's are todays Spanish people(Mexico, Spain). The Jews mixed race with them, along with none african jews. which are todays Canaanites (Which consist of: Austria,Bulgaria, Hungary, Italy, Romania, Albania, Greece, Turkey, Slovenia Croatia, Bosnia, Cubans, and Latino nationalities (Which are also called Babylon). They do a lot of witchcraft because of their ancestors and they adopted a lot of rituals and beliefs. Such as, the day the Messiah was born. Along with other beliefs in the Christian faith that was made up and added from rituals celebrated around 600 BC that now we celebrate, that has no relevance whatsoever but to keep there pockets full and us filling them. In actuality, Muhammad was said to have risen over 4000 years ago, 2000 years before Christ. Why won't the Christians allow the Muslims to visit the place the Messiah has risen, and why are they fighting for the same person, yet a different name? Does that make any sense to you? In Revelations chapter 11, verse 8. Is where Our LORD was crucified.
Sorry to correct, but Islam views Muhammed as a prophet.
Jews, Muslims and Christians all have the same Abrahamic roots. All believe that Jesus was a person not a diety, not a God. To Jews a man and perhaps a false messiah, to Muslims a lesser prophet, to Christians God's son (God in flesh), a messiah (saviour of Jews and Gentiles). The Triune God is a difficult concept to understand three in one, one God in three forms, but still a person.
You're right is doesn't make sense Jesus should be the unifying thread that connects all of these religions under one God. In one way or another we are connected, created by the same God or share the same blood as a mixed race.
How can one know whether or not he existed? The only documents that claim his existence are typically not accepted as reliable/credible. I do not believe there is sufficient credible evidence to support the claim "Jesus did exist" nor the claim "Jesus did not exist".
Jesus a real person? Possibly. It's highly likely these stories are exaggerated claims about a really cool person who was pretty good at tricks or was simply a great, caring person.
If jesus was a real person, Philo of Alexandria would also written about him [jesus] in his Early Jewish Writtings such as the "On the Embassy to Gaius". There is NON not even a single mention of jesus in this Writting, so jesus was never a real person, NO
jesus was never, never, never a real person, NO, because if jesus was a real person the son of god and the Biblical accounts are accurate, then why is he so glaringly absent from the other historical accounts of the jesus time? WHY?
and / or
If jesus was a real person but wasn't the son of god but rather just an ordinary person, then how did nothing more than a "marginal Jew" become elevated to the status of god so shortly after his death and earthly burial? just HOW, can someone tell me?
jesus was never, never, never a real person, NO, because if jesus was a real person the son of god and the Biblical accounts are accurate, then why is he so glaringly absent from the other historical accounts of the jesus time? WHY?
and / or
If jesus was a real person but wasn't the son of god but rather just an ordinary person, then how did nothing more than a "marginal Jew" become elevated to the status of god so shortly after his death and earthly burial? just HOW, can someone tell me?
jesus was not a real person because the only source of his story is only the gospels nothing other than the gospels, how is this possible? why did other historians not write about jesus if he was a real person?
i think if this topic is at all unclear to anyone you should go to anywhere books are sold, buy an NIV bible (easier to understand) read it, and find a good bible church to regularly attend.
TO FLAME---Where did you go , just after you chose not to forgive , but instead cast me out as an enemy ? I just happened upon a very good argument posted by a debator named "caged" in your debate about Jesus being a real person.Caged posted this 24 days ago. Why did you not bash this person with sections from your bible , considering his argument is so controversal to your damned beliefs ? What frightens you from taking on the truth ?..ENLIGHTMENT ...........(YES i know i called it Flames debate , thats because you took it on board like as though you was this "GOD" himself ! ) Blasphomy in the highest form!
And now instead of any reply , you just act like a terrorist and point bomb me . Well i know you didnt forgive me for not having the same oppinion as you , so why should i be suprised.
If Jesus Christ was a real person where did all those magical powers came from that's talk about in the bible and why we humans today don't have that power?
1. History: By its most common definition, the word history now means "the past of mankind." Compare the German word for history -- Geschichte, which is derived from geschehen, meaning to happen. Geschichte is that which has happened (Gottschalk, Understanding History: A Primer of Historical Method, 41).
2. Historical Method: The process of critically examining and analyzing the records and survivals of the past is here called historical method. The imaginative reconstruction of the past from the data derived by that process is called historiography (the writing of history). By means of historical method and historiography (both of which are frequently grouped together simply as historical method) the historian endeavors to reconstruct as much of the past of mankind as he can (Gottschalk, Understanding History: A Primer of Historical Method, 48-49).
3. Scientific Method: ...related to measurement of phenomena and experimentation or repeated observation (McDowell, More Than A Carpenter, 33)
II. Your points:
1. "If Jesus Christ was a real person where did all those magical powers came from that's talk about in the bible...?"
2. "..why we humans today don't have that power?"
III. Refuttal:
I believe that you misunderstood that the debate deals with the question of "Was Jesus Christ a real Person?". That is, it is a question of the past, hence history. In order to know if Jesus of Nazareth from the Bible was indeed a real person, than you have to do it by "examining and analyzing the records and survivals of the past" (Gottschalk 41). You can not measure an historical event because it is the "past" and therefore not repeatable. Thus, you can not prove that a person existed in the past by using the scientific method. For example, you can not even prove to me that somebody attacked you physically with the scientific method. You would have to prove that historical event by historical method. That is you have to gather evidences such as, fingerprints, blood samples, eye witness, etc.
IV. Conclusion
Therefore, your argument is self-refutting and makes no sense at all.
There are no other humans that had God for a father. Maybe the world would be a better place if God fathered more sons and daughters, too. Jesus was sacrificed so that you and I could talk about these things.
