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13
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Debate Score:27
Arguments:47
Total Votes:34
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xMathFanx(673) pic



What Would You Do?: Mother Uses Harsh Punishment On Son

Video:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RpiSeuSU8EE

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Side Score: 14
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Side Score: 13
2 points

Admittedly I could only watch a few minutes, I was getting ready to smack the lady after she got so pissed at the bacon.

Kids are kids, they are going to make mistakes, get messy, and not always listen. They aren't little adults.

Pouring hot sauce down a kids throat is absolutely wrong. For tiny tummies it can hurt, some can cause blisters, others can choke on it causing severe pain down the throat. To subject your child to that makes you a tormentor, not a parent.

Side: Intervene
1 point

@Mint_tea

Kids are kids, they are going to make mistakes, get messy, and not always listen. They aren't little adults.

Exactly. If a person wasn't prepared to handle this then they never truly wanted the responsibility of being a parent (and are therefore unfit to be a guardian)

Pouring hot sauce down a kids throat is absolutely wrong. For tiny tummies it can hurt, some can cause blisters, others can choke on it causing severe pain down the throat. To subject your child to that makes you a tormentor, not a parent

Agreed

Side: Intervene
marcusmoon(247) Clarified
1 point

Mint,

Do you have kids?

If you do, are they strong willed?

How old are they?

What is the worst discipline problem you have had?

Side: Intervene
Mint_tea(2531) Clarified
2 points

You bet.

Two and five years old, my eldest is limited-verbal autistic and both are stubborn to the core but kind and sharing.....sometimes.

That doesn't not mean I'm going to shove hot sauce down their throats or expect they need to act like little adults.

Side: Intervene
2 points

I would intervene though possibly not in the same manner as the example. This scene is happening in an establishment and I would first go comment to the management that something controversial may be going down on their premises. They may do nothing, but more likely than not they'd start observing to see if my tip was on point and then they'd decide their next step. I could imagine them either:

a) Asking that family to leave the premises until they've sorted out their behavior/punishment, or

b) taking the hot sauce back saying it's theirs and it's not provided for the sake of torturing kids, or

c) calling police or some other authority to come deal with it.

But note, I'm hesitant to directly intervene if it's not a case of lasting physical harm happening. There are many many variations on parenting and although some parents really do need to be put in their place it is sometimes just a difference of philosophy. For example, there are people who call any type of verbal escalation abuse, and there are others who see the verbal escalation as so much more preferable to if it turned physical, and there are others who agree they don't want to verbally escalate but in that one particular case they ended up at wit's end and it went there.

Another example. My wife and I generally see eye to eye on how to raise our kids. Once in a while they'll have an extended period with just one parent watching them (like my wife may be booked for something work related a couple days and I've been immersed with the kids the whole time she was gone). Then after she is back a kid may do something and I may react very strongly with whatever action, and she may be stunned, even a little angry to see me react. BUT, and here's the big but, if after being stunned I explain to her all the things that happened through the two days she wasn't around then pretty much suddenly "oh yeah, I get it, I'd have blown my stack, too" is the response. Anyway, when strangers watch another parent/child interaction they have zero of that context of whatever preceded in the longer term.

Let me ask you this, if you knew that before the hot sauce strategy the mom used to spank that child with a stick, and now she has stopped doing that in favor of the hot sauce approach, are you a little less mad at her? And what if it didn't start with hot sauce. What if it originally was just eat your vegetables. And he flat refused, pretty much forever. And that finally escalated to well if you won't eat your vegetables then I'll give you the vegetables THIS way. (And I don't like that last scenario. It's absurd. But again, it makes you hate the fact she went for the hot sauce just a little bit less).

And now here's a final thought. I don't want to see any parent impose a ridiculously harsh punishment. But ALSO, I don't want to see a parent totally ignore that their kids is acting like a monster. I'm actually equally horrified to see someone being turned into a spoiled brat bully as I am to seeing them sternly punished.

Side: Intervene
xMathFanx(673) Clarified
1 point

@Grenache.

Let me ask you this, if you knew that before the hot sauce strategy the mom used to spank that child with a stick, and now she has stopped doing that in favor of the hot sauce approach, are you a little less mad at her?

No, I think someone who is aware of this treatment (if it is frequent/habitual) would have a responsibility to call Child Protective Services/Police

And what if it didn't start with hot sauce. What if it originally was just eat your vegetables. And he flat refused, pretty much forever. And that finally escalated to well if you won't eat your vegetables then I'll give you the vegetables THIS way. (And I don't like that last scenario. It's absurd. But again, it makes you hate the fact she went for the hot sauce just a little bit less).

No. As Mint-tea pointed out, it is expected that children are going to behave in this way at times because they are not even close to being fully developed yet. If one was not prepared for this responsibility without resorting to abusive measures, than they never wanted to truly be a parent and are not fit to be guardians. I have no sympathy for Adults that physically abuse children (particularly very little children) simply because they are "out of patience". If that is an Adult parents "excuse", than they should forfeit their membership to Homo Sapiens and join the other Primates/Mammals in the wild..

And now here's a final thought. I don't want to see any parent impose a ridiculously harsh punishment. But ALSO, I don't want to see a parent totally ignore that their kids is acting like a monster. I'm actually equally horrified to see someone being turned into a spoiled brat bully as I am to seeing them sternly punished.

Agreed. But how is bulling one's children through physical/verbal abuse going to teach children not to be bullies themselves? Just because one doesn't "Hot Sauce" or spank their kids doesn't mean that they are "negligent". Is there not a more optimal from of parenting between these two relative extremes?

Side: Intervene
marcusmoon(247) Clarified
1 point

I'm actually equally horrified to see someone being turned into a spoiled brat bully as I am to seeing them sternly punished.

Yep. Entitled assholes do not just magically appear in our society.

My dad was not about to inflict rude or selfish brats on the world. As a result, my parents were very strict, and we were no strangers to spankings, slapped faces, mouths washed out with soap, and hot sauce on the tongue.

But even as children, we were well-behaved enough that our family was welcome anywhere.

Anyway, when strangers watch another parent/child interaction they have zero of that context of whatever preceded in the longer term.

TRUE!

What I learned as both a teacher and a CPS Investigator, and experienced as a parent include the following lessons.

- 1 - Kids have free will, and will often use it destructively if left to their own devices. As much to the point, they often struggle against attempts to bend their behavior into habits and attitudes that enable them to be successful and productive adults.

- 2- Shaping kids into decent, careful people has no one-size-fits-all solutions. What works on some kids is ineffective with others. Parents often have to try multiple different methods before finding something that works with one kid, and find something else that works with a different kid.

- 3 - Kids are far more likely to be damaged by inadequate/ineffective discipline or by parental inattention than by harsher (but safe) punishment and extremely strict parenting. Neglect and accidents when the kid is unsupervised, account for far more deaths and injuries than abuse and "accidents" at the hands of parents/caretakers.

- 4 - Although the ideal is that the parent is calm when delivering discipline, reality makes this unlikely. In order for operant conditioning to be effective at discouragement of bad behaviors, the consequence has to be almost immediate. This is precisely during the time frame when the parent is most likely to be angry.

- 5 - Being a parent is infinitely harder and more frustrating than it looks. Everything I thought was so obvious when I was just a teacher dealing with other people's kids turned out to be totally wrong and unrealistic when I had a kid of my own.

Side: Intervene
Grenache(5564) Clarified
1 point

You shared great lessons. .....................................................................

Side: Intervene
1 point

I'm very hesitant - but that was abuse.plain and simple. The idea of pouring hot sauce on a kid's tongue, I find damn repugnant. She needs to experience that - anybody doing it to a child needs to experience that, or worse, before they do it to a child.

I have sat by when children were disciplined harshly - but that's beyond disciplining.

Side: Intervene
marcusmoon(247) Disputed
1 point

How is using hot sauce as a discipline tool abuse?

It is more intimate than spanking, and uses the same set of punishment triggers, but precludes the possibility of damaging the child.

True, the reasons for the "discipline" were badly chosen in the video, but that was a problem with bad acting/directing for fictional situations, not an issue with the punishment itself.

Were the same punishment used for actual and intentional misbehavior, it would be in line with any version of punishment/discipline that has a chance at success.

The biggest problem with hot sauce as a discipline tool is that its impact is inversely proportional to the frequency with which it is used. When it is used too often, kids get used to it, and ultimately become "pepper bellies" who enjoy spicy foods.

A punishment that the subject enjoys is generally called a reward, and as such reinforces the behavior rather than discouraging it.

Side: Ignore
EldonG(545) Clarified
1 point

You know, it's difficult for me to be clear on this - not that it's emotional - I actually support spankings (NOT beatings) when not in public - this feels sadistic, and also it's a public disciplining. Disciplining in public can quickly become a matter of humiliating, and that I find very sick. That damages the psyche of a child a bit too recklessly.

Side: Intervene
0 points

How is using hot sauce as a discipline tool abuse?

What do you think would happen if you used hot sauce as a "discipline tool" for an adult? You'd get punched in the face, right? Hence, any adult would call it abuse. How is doing the same thing to someone too small to fight back not abuse?

Side: Intervene
1 point

Why pick on mother? I had a "harsh" step father. He didn't use hot sauce (didn't like it so had none in the house). HIS favorite was a razor strop, but anything handy would do, a switch, Ping Pong Paddle, 2x4, hammer handle etc. I DO agree that some kids I've seen really NEED some strong discipline ... not just a stern talking to! But it has to be (dare I say it??), "conservative" rather than "liberal"! (Never thought I'd say such a thing!), but, sometimes it's better to bite the bullet, rather than the kid. :<)

Side: Intervene
xMathFanx(673) Clarified
1 point

@AlofRi.

I DO agree that some kids I've seen really NEED some strong discipline ... not just a stern talking to!

Do you think this applies to adults as well? If not, why?

Side: Intervene
AlofRI(1839) Clarified
1 point

OH, DEFINATELY! One happens to be living in the White House at this time! Another is in Alabama running for the Senate.

Side: Intervene
marcusmoon(247) Clarified
1 point

MathFan,

In response to I DO agree that some kids I've seen really NEED some strong discipline ... not just a stern talking to! you wrote

Do you think this applies to adults as well?

Look at all the bastards in the news for sexual harassment and assault (Weinstein, Franken, Conyers, Clinton, O'Reily, Cosby, etc., ad nauseum) and ask yourself if a stern talking to would change their behavior.

We all know damned well they need to be the subjects of pointed and public physical discipline.

Side: Intervene
2 points

lmao. Hot saucing builds character!

The funny thing to me is, when I was a kid I probably would have messed up on purpose to get hot sauced. What if the kid likes hot sauce? Now you've got positive reinforcement for bad behavior.

Sometimes things go on for reasons we can't understand. Like for instance, a camera crew waiting to ambush you when you respond to what is going on.

Or a million excuses to ignore what was happening and try not to laugh. Seriously? Pour hot sauce down a kids throat? Hell, I've won beers for drinking hot sauce.

All of a sudden I feel hardcore. Hot sauce builds character! Quit complaining little Jimmy, it puts hair on your chest!

Bwahahaha!

Side: Ignore
xMathFanx(673) Clarified
1 point

@TzarPepe.

Hot sauce builds character! Quit complaining little Jimmy, it puts hair on your chest!

Bwahahaha!

Are you being serious here or no?

Side: Intervene
TzarPepe(334) Clarified
1 point

I'm not really certain whether or not hot sauce makes an effective hair tonic.

Side: Intervene
1 point

I worked as a Child Protective Services (CPS) investigator in Texas, so my reaction to the video is in the context of how law tends to interact with a broad range of discipline/parenting styles and methods, and what that means in terms of real life family dynamics.

Texas Law (Title 5 section 261.001), like that of at least 27 states (to my knowledge) regarding child abuse sets the bar for abuse at damage, actual or potential, to the child.

Reality 1: To qualify as mental/emotional abuse, it has to result in “observable and material impairment in the child's growth, development, or psychological functioning.”

Observation 1: The video shows nothing to indicate that any of what the “Mom” does is observably impairing the kid’s ability to develop or function. Sure, “mom” is impatient, intolerant of error, and a total bitch, but that does not make this abuse, just unpleasant and unhappy. Being unhappy (distinct from diagnosed depression) or even being afraid is not an impairment.

Reality 2: To qualify as physical abuse, it has to be “physical injury that results in substantial harm to the child, or the genuine threat of substantial harm from physical injury to the child.” Pain and unpleasantness is not a factor. This is largely because pain and discomfort (whether emotional or physical) is a definitional requirement for punishment.

Observation 2: The “mom” does nothing in the video that can physically harm the child. Hot sauce is a food, and as such is being used appropriately. (She is not putting it in the kid’s eyes.) The kid is clearly old enough to swallow the stuff safely. Under age 4 or 5 would approach a grey area. In a toddler or baby it would be abuse.

In fact, the hot sauce poses significantly less danger to the kid than were “mom” to slap his face or spank him. (Spanking the butt or backs of the legs also fails to qualify as abuse, even if done with a belt or rope, so long as there is no bruising or breaking the skin.)

Reality 3: Parents and legal guardians are the people who have the legal responsibility for training and discipline. When parents neglect this responsibility, society suffers under the weight of the resulting useless and entitled weaklings, unethical and selfish bastards, and criminals. Likewise parents are the ones who have to figure out how to train their kids not to be irresponsible, useless, or hazards as adults.

Observation 3: The fact that we and the bystanders/interveners in the video dislike the mother’s method of discipline, or that we are emotionally impacted has nothing to do with whether “mom’s” behavior is abusive or in any way inappropriate (except that she makes the other customers deal with it. Polite parents are more discreet in public.)

The fact that her “son” totally hates it is a requirement for it to qualify as discipline. She is using the basics of operant conditioning (clumsily and emotionally) in a totally safe way. The fact that we want her to cut the kid some slack because “he is just a kid” ignores the requirement that parents are the ones who must set and enforce the standards for their kid’s behavior.

Well-meaning and soft-hearted strangers undermining that is not helping to ensure the "parent" produces a person who contributes to the good of society.

Side: Ignore
0 points

Hello again, x:

I did NOT watch your video.. If I wanted to do that, I'd go to youtube.. I'm here to debate REAL LIVE humans. Toward that end, if I saw a person abusing a child, I'd INTERVENE, and I'd intervene LOUDLY..

excon

Side: Ignore
xMathFanx(673) Disputed
0 points

@excon.

Hello again, x:

I did NOT watch your video.. If I wanted to do that, I'd go to youtube.. I'm here to debate REAL LIVE humans. Toward that end, if I saw a person abusing a child, I'd INTERVENE, and I'd intervene LOUDLY

The point is that these are common social issues encountered in "daily" life that people have varying perspectives on..

If you didn't want to get the proper context to discuss the issue, then why post here (this debate) at all? You already made a trivially glaring error on a previous debate because you didn't watch the short video and therefore made the unfounded accusation that I am against gay adoption (which you just pulled out of the ether) based on your (mis)interpretation of the Debate Title..

Side: Intervene
excon(4402) Disputed
2 points

Hello again, x:

I don't think I said ANYTHING about you.. I posed the question, "what NOT to like".. I can't help it if you think that's some sort of diss on you.

excon

Side: Ignore
0 points

If you didn't want to get the proper context to discuss the issue, then why post here (this debate) at all?

Lol. You insane fascist hypocrite. If you can't remain honest when you debate people then why post here at all?

Side: Ignore