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1. Everything that exists, has always existed and will always exist. I am unable to wrap my brain around infinity. But, if it will always exist (and if information is not lost as theorized by science), then maybe that thing we call "self" will exist forever and death is just a transition of consciousness.
2. Everything that exists spontaneously materialized. I am unable to wrap my brain around the concept of something arising out of nothing. But, if it's possible, we may someday be able to create entire universes. On that day, we would become Gods.
You are incapable of imagining without yourself in the image?
I think there's a visine for that. It's called "ego destruction". Through ego destruction, cognitive obstructions such as self absorption, will be destroyed along with it, therefore allowing anything to be observed through the third eye.
Also darkness is 'something'. Infinity would be beyond the concept of darkness also. We are trapped within concepts. Concepts have form (a beginning and end) so it is impossible for our minds to comprehend that which has no beginning or end.
Technically you could be correct, however as Stephen Hawking believed before the Big Bang, the universe was basidially just a infinite void. But when the Big Bang happened is the planets formed how, is unknown to my knowledge. But if someone knows I would love it if they told me because I'm only twelve but I love debate!
It is not that the universe was an infinite void, it is that everything that exists today was compressed into a microscopic ball and then it blew up/expanded.
this is silliness you could just as easy imagine unicorns and rainbows and as for your sleep trance I think you are having a flash back of star trek and star wars mind chokes and other silly kid stuff....infinity ...is best described in a shape and this shape is a circle it has no beginning and no end you see young man time is a 2dimensional illusion cast in a third dimensional pseudo reality I can prove this in superstring theory and basic math so anything your doing is just highschool foolishness designed to make you feel mysterious.....although I must say it makes you seem juvenile and silly ...not to mention an empty vessel still holds air....and if you are using fluoride in your diet in toothpaste or your water then there is no way you can use your third eye because this is your pineal gland and fluoride decays this gland causing it to turn to brain sand.....Archimedes was killed while studying the importance of circles ......I hope you can grasp that something that has no beginning and no end is not a reference to its size.....a small circle contains this property as well.....I will tell you this I don't want to encourage you in this stupid trance like state but if you push your conscience reality out making your body void of your mind you open your body to an invader.....looking for a material vessel to navigate this dimension....so nock it off ...
im very sorry if I was in any way harmful to you and your feelings...sometimes I need to have better bed side manner ...I just want to say thank you for speaking with me and I value your thoughts ..that being said ..sir those voices you hear they do not mean you well.....it is a matter of fact that there are alternate dimesions ....and in a perfect world I would have the means to transfer my thoughts to you and you would know what I know but I cant ....and as far as talking to some one ...I grew up an unwanted step kid my whole life....and I have learned no father is better than a bad father.......so if you must reach out reach for something that wont hurt you in the end ....please know my heart breaks for you ..emotional pain is just the worst and im really sorry you feel alone but if you will just trust me for just this one thing ...I want you to take every thing you ever heard about Jesus and throw it away...first off most by most I mean 99% of churches actually perpetuate baal worship...I can prove this if you want or you can just trust me .....Christians don't know a real thing about GOD they just believe he blindly loves them and excepts theyre two faced idol worship.....this is NOT the case so let me speak a kind truth to you .....you have been lied to your whole life the world you think you know is a side show of mirrors strings and tilted tables .....and that is why YESHUA does not ring true any more ...well I have the truth...and I can give it to you ....when YESHUA walked this earth who were his friends ....THE OUTCASTS THE LIARS THE POOR THE HURT THE SICK THE HOMELESS THE SINNERS .....and for this the ruling elite hated him.....he taught relation ship not customs and fines and tithes ...his only recorded strike of anger was in a temple turning profits off the backs of the people....not the sinners who loved him.....when my babies sin and believe me they do....I never ever stop loving them ...they are so precious to me in a way that cannot be measured ...I would climb on a cross for them in a flash....so think my friend...YESHUA had just you in mind when he was strippd naked beaten mocked and slowly suffocated to death on the cross and his words to the father were forgive prologos for he knows not what he does ....GOD has a solestial kingdom he is looking for souls to run these kingdoms this life is a test to find qualified self controlled loving royalty to run things....why do you think the morning star convinced the angels to leave heaven to fight us and GOD in a war.....because he wanted to run the show him and his band of angels...known as the archon watchers and other names like aliens....this is the reason we are hated and he wants you to fail against GOD so you cant have the inheritance that you are born too have ....this is why he tricked adam and eve into eating the apple to cause them to know sin....to steal what GOD was planning for them...remember if satan was our friend he would have had them eat the tree of life first....alas he did not ....so in closing your ticket thru the GATES is nailed to a cross by a carpenter waiting just for you ..you didn't earn it you don't pay for it you cant deserve it...it is a gift....from them to you....please let go of your anger and hate and pain you can be a shoulder for those you can relate to in the future.....right now there is a person who is broken and needs your comfort...will you help them and you .....help them find there ticket tell them about there birth right.....and the kingdoms they will inherit ....and the family who desperately loves them even when they screw up..........its all been figured out for you ....the work is done the tab is paid ...wont you except this gift .....YESHUA THE KING wants you in his family today and forever please come ...the way is simple just bend your knee and offer your heart to him and allow your hurt to be washed away let pain turn to love and freedom and joy forever please
sir those voices you hear they do not mean you well...
Oh. I know. About 3 years ago I was told by one, "You're going to die tomorrow!" And I got way sicker when that voice broke me from the trance.
Waste and then blood and bile came from both ends. I have not been right ever since.
.it is a matter of fact that there are alternate dimesions
Definitely. How else could I close my eyes and see people's auras through walls and accidently transfer my thoughts to others?
and in a perfect world I would have the means to transfer my thoughts to you and you would know what I know but I cant
Ummm. Yeah. That's crazy talk.
I grew up an unwanted step kid my whole life....and I have learned no father is better than a bad father.
I grew up an unwanted kid, and still unwanted. Still don't care.
so if you must reach out reach for something that wont hurt you in the end
Is anything really a "must"?
please know my heart breaks for you ..emotional pain is just the worst and im really sorry you feel alone but if you will just trust me for just this one thing
No thank you. Trust is earned, but I have none to give.
I want you to take every thing you ever heard about Jesus and throw it away...first off most by most I mean 99% of churches actually perpetuate baal worship...I can prove this if you want or you can just trust me .....Christians don't know a real thing about GOD they just believe he blindly loves them and excepts theyre two faced idol worship.....this is NOT the case so let me speak a kind truth to you .....you have been lied to your whole life the world you think you know is a side show of mirrors strings and tilted tables .....and that is why YESHUA does not ring true any more ...well I have the truth...and I can give it to you ....when YESHUA walked this earth who were his friends ....THE OUTCASTS THE LIARS THE POOR THE HURT THE SICK THE HOMELESS THE SINNERS .....and for this the ruling elite hated him.....he taught relation ship not customs and fines and tithes ...his only recorded strike of anger was in a temple turning profits off the backs of the people....not the sinners who loved him.....when my babies sin and believe me they do....I never ever stop loving them ...they are so precious to me in a way that cannot be measured ...I would climb on a cross for them in a flash....so think my friend...YESHUA had just you in mind when he was strippd naked beaten mocked and slowly suffocated to death on the cross and his words to the father were forgive prologos for he knows not what he does ....GOD has a solestial kingdom he is looking for souls to run these kingdoms this life is a test to find qualified self controlled loving royalty to run things....why do you think the morning star convinced the angels to leave heaven to fight us and GOD in a war.....because he wanted to run the show him and his band of angels...known as the archon watchers and other names like aliens....this is the reason we are hated and he wants you to fail against GOD so you cant have the inheritance that you are born too have ....this is why he tricked adam and eve into eating the apple to cause them to know sin....to steal what GOD was planning for them...remember if satan was our friend he would have had them eat the tree of life first....alas he did not ....so in closing your ticket thru the GATES is nailed to a cross by a carpenter waiting just for you ..you didn't earn it you don't pay for it you cant deserve it...it is a gift....from them to you....please let go of your anger and hate and pain you can be a shoulder for those you can relate to in the future.....right now there is a person who is broken and needs your comfort...will you help them and you .....help them find there ticket tell them about there birth right.....and the kingdoms they will inherit ....and the family who desperately loves them even when they screw up..........its all been figured out for you ....the work is done the tab is paid ...wont you except this gift .....YESHUA THE KING wants you in his family today and forever please come ...the way is simple just bend your knee and offer your heart to him and allow your hurt to be washed away let pain turn to love and freedom and joy forever please
Once you said Jesus I stopped reading. Story time is over. You're not a kid anymore.
at what point do you think I would offer anything I could not prove and if I said YESHUA would you even know who he is ...probably not 99% of Christians don't even know his name ...and why would you leave at the mention of his name ....it seems you may be under a false idea of who GOD is ....in the 1940 there was a german man named dojo or something close to that spelling he could pierce his organs and his body all the way through with swords this is well documented and videod the Nazis were amazed by this ...although it is nothing more than quantum tunneling ...a well documented occurrence in quantum computing ....anyhow if you would like a lecture on quantum tunneling I can give you the long and the short versions ....or you can just believe me ...anyway he had what he thought was friendly angles or being teaching him and protecting him ....finally they convinced him to swallow needles ...he died...alone in pain they used him to help suck the Nazis into the occult then killed him when he was no longer useful as it took him a while to die he was able to express his feelings of betrayal.....YESHUA ...has never done this not once and never would ......and you are wanted ...YESHUA is making sure you get any form of truth from him you want ask and it will be given ....most people will never know the truth about yeshua they blindly mix him with the occult and don't blink an eye then point fingers at others and their sins ....YESHUA was and is the best friend a sinner can have .....I got a news for you ...heaven wont have as many Christians as you think lol.....the thief on the cross was no Christian but he is safe in the kingdom I promise you ...but a lot and I mean a lot of pastors will be in serious trouble ....and if you think I will shake off because your hurt and angry ..well ....highly improbable ....and as for those voices ......call on the name of YESHUA JESUS and see them run for the hills.....have you had sleep paralisis yet ......has the darkness almost suffocated you in your sleep....if so ....just the mention of his name will send them packing ....do you know why YESHUA rose on the third day.....he was in the pits of hell whipping ass.....he now controls who comes and who goes he has the keys to the pit ......thru extreme violence I assure you he walked into the enemy stronghold alone and took what he came for ...ever seen walking tall....compared to YESHUA the rock was walking small.....I have so many things that can just blow your mind ....so if you don't believe me just ask I got you and if you have access to internet videos I can give you some amazing scholars to check out.....if you take the right pill I will unplug you from the matrix.....this whole place is ran by lies and lies and when they cant lie they misrepresent.....
....it seems you may be under a false idea of who GOD is
I have no idea of what God is. Capiche?
although it is nothing more than quantum tunneling ...a well documented occurrence in quantum computing ....anyhow if you would like a lecture on quantum tunneling I can give you the long and the short versions .
Long version please. And follow american grammar rules please.
if you take the right pill I will unplug you from the matrix.....this whole place is ran by lies and lies and when they cant lie they misrepresent.....
ok no worries ..quantum tunneling is were you break down an atom and the small particle can pass through the mass of a larger partical structer ....this is why crystalline is used in quantum computers ...the carbon structure is to dense to allow tunneling of atoms ...and these atoms and protons and electrons are given a 0 and 1 value to the polarity of there natural magnetism.......then using energy waves you can flip these atoms over and over in the nv center of the crystline structure and using a basic algerythem you can workout the serieses of binary code .....pretty much it...in laymens terms..and im not an English professor so I ccare not as long as im not causeing others to much misery in reading my poor spelling ....and GOD is........ that is what he is ...........he is all physical and conscience matter and thought he is all elements and stones of power...he is all that was and is and will be you have a thought he had it before you find it he created it you create it he inspired it he is that he is he is the ALL CONSUMING FIRE .....this why when morning star was drug into his court GOD offered a face to face and morning star would not drop his wings to engage....it was classic...satan was whinning about this and that and questioned GOD you never do this ....so GOD said put your wings done and we will talk it over face to face ...this of coarse humiliated satan ....so if you wonder why he has wings the angels and cheribs of his court have to to protect them from the fire ...GOD is quite amazing you will see I just have that feeling your going to find him and everyone that does loves him trust me
You are ignoring the third possibility.....that there was nothing before God created it. You know this would be the third option of choice in belief, but this is the one you want to deny. The other two you can toy with, but the third option you choose willfully to ignore because believing it would change your life and you would probably lose a lot of friends who really are not your friends....but if feels good to keep in touch with them.
Your option number 2 states that everything spontaneously materialized. If everything spontaneously materialized, God did not cause it to come into existence, it came into existence of it's own accord. Your option number 2 changes God into everything. God is not everything, God created everything and He is separate from everything while He sustains everything. God does not need anything to be God. You're not smart, you are evil, trying to mentally murder God.
The problem that got you banned was your refusal to participate as invited by the OP, and your tricky attempts to derail the discussion by changing God into something that is not God who Created all things. You were not qualified to be in that discussion as you never accepted the invitation of the OP to discuss what you would do if you were God. You just tried to change God to nothing so you could say you would do nothing and feel nothing if you were God. Another guy tried to say he would do everything and feel everything if he were God, doing the same thing you did, changing God into undefined and not separate from everything He created. People who can't let go of Hindu belief are not qualified for that discussion. I banned you after several attempts to get you to say what you, personally, would do and how you, personally, would feel if you were, personally, God. You insisted repeatedly that God is impersonal, repeatedly disqualifying yourself from the discussion. Several others had no problem participating as the OP invited them, and they were engaged constructively as their comments were constructive within the bounds of the OP. You have some kind of mental block of your own making which prevents you from being about to participate as invited in the OP, and you were being disruptive, and you were rightfully banned in respect of the people who participated constructively. Grow up. and get over it. You were in the wrong place at the wrong time pushing your beliefs. I can discuss those things with you in other places if you show enough maturity to carry on a conversation, which I see no sign you are able to do.
You want to know what I would do if I were God? I would take away one of your relatives. And eventually I would make my hand come out from behind a cloud and use thunder as my voice and say, "Fuck you especially. Now you die." And I would crush you like a bug. But before that I would whisper in your ear, "Kill yourself you worthless slug. I have no compassion for you and I will use your life to prove it."
God took away my youngest brother at the age of 25 in a motorcycle accident, and he took my mother around 6 years ago, and I am still thanking Him for His mercy and goodness. Why you would be cruel if you were God, I do not know....but I do know you are foul mouthed and in your icon you look like a whore. You should be ashamed. I stopped reading your post at the point you became profane, and you know what to expect for your obscenities.
Well, let me tell you something, shit for brains, you brought down my wrath upon yourself when you broke "MY RULES."
1. You banned (strike one).
2. You started with the name calling (strike two).
3. You kept on responding to me AFTER you banned me (strike three).
If God took away your family it was probably to get them away from you. It was better for them to be with Him than anywhere near your toxic personality. It's no secret you have no friends here. I suggest you do some real mourning and move forward with your life instead of living your current weird ass life.
You think I'm cruel? I am doing you a favor by not tip-toeing around your issues. I am telling you exactly what you need to hear in order to get over these tragedies. For all we know there is no God and there may not be any point/purpose to life. But that does not mean there is no life after death. You are stuck in this mindset that there is a God and He has this great plan and this plan required the death of your family. Think of life as a video game. When your friends get taken out in Call of Duty, they are not "really" dead. They are just not there to lend a helping hand. So pick yourself up by your boot straps and move forward.
And before you come back with more of your "do you have a right to be live outside of hell" bull shit, consider what I have said and try out the new way of thinking. Try out the paradigm shift. And if it doesn't make you feel any happier, then go back to the way you are currently doing things (which I don't see how that makes you happy).
If I were God, I would be gunning for your father next. And anyone else in your life. Until you were utterly alone and shot yourself. You worthless piece of shit.
Oh, you are posting related to one of my debates in a discussion where your response to me does not belong. I guess you know I would ban you for your foul mouth and that whorish picture you use as an icon. If this were my debate, you would be banned here for being disruptive......and I too would probably be banned for posting not related to the OP.
Tell me, did you ask your mother if she had the right to live outside of hell while she was on her death bed? How about your brother? Did you ask him or was he street pizza that needed to get scrapped up and the rest just got hosed down the rain gutter?
The least you can do is copy and paste your response. You're really good at that. It doesn't take much brain power, which is good since, as an idiot, that is about all you can do.
You're a liar, you hate the idea that as a sinner you do not have the right to exist outside of Hell, and you ride my back like a wild monkey trying to annoy me with your desired to be exempt from death. You'll tire of riding my back after a while.
I doubt you have the strength or the spine to allow anybody to ride your back.
You condemn me for seeking retribution for an Evil Assault on a family member. For standing up to Evil. You sir are a mushy bellied coward who gets no more exercise than with his fingers on a computer all day.
you should come to our CrossFit Box some day. I could show you some exercises to strengthen your back. and maybe give you a lesson in Theology, and the Nature of Evil sometime.
It would do you a world of Good. Strengthening both our body and Spirit.
You broke the law by taking vengeance into your own hands and should be in jail for it. I can't say I really blame you for doing what the law failed to do in executing justice, but you did it outside of the law and should be punished by the law. That's the way it is. I can never condone or approve of anybody taking the law into their own hands. I can understand why they might do it, but I cannot approve of them doing it. You are not the law, you are not God's vessel of vengeance. You are going to get hurt or hurt somebody thinking you are on a mission from God and justified by that mission. You really should be locked up and serve the maximum sentence for that arson. It would be the best thing for you and for society.
You are a psychopath and I will not accept your invitation as long as your thinking and attitude remain as they are. Why in the world would I want to throw myself into a fire where I'll have to fight to get out? You don't want me to accept your invitation. You would get stupid on me and you would get yourself in trouble. You've shown enough of your stupidity already. I do not play in gyms, and I do not play with people who want to fight with me....and I do not back down from bullies. You are evil, and I'm not stupid, punk.
you deny God is God and you try to change Creation into being God when it is the thing created by God. You lied when you said God personally being the Creator of all things fit's in your number 2. It does not. Your number two fits in the toilet.
I don't know, but I'm sure if you asked SlapShot he could explain it all in minute detail until you want to blow your brains out. Maybe that's where the term 'big bang' originated? From everyone who ever came in contact with him and couldn't take it anymore, LOL
Well...yeah, tubby....I have to agree with you there.
I could explain it all.
But since I have here on these boards before, more than once, I will not waste my time doing it again.
Pearls before swine and all.
But hey! I find it especially piquant that you took the time to come here and do a post that did not even address the question. And instead felt compelled once again to mention little old me.
Indeed..last I checked you had no less than four posts where you mentioned moi.
I wonder why?
And I wonder why I never once have mentioned you in a post?
What does this fact tell us?
Hmmmmm.
That you spend a lot more time thinking about me than vice versa.
Are we a tad obsessed?
Hey...it's OK. I get the whole " married woman bored with hubby and the humdrum sex gets a little moist with the local smart sexy bad boy around here" thing.
Sorry...you ain't my type.
Thanks though.
And you really should stay off debates when you know zilch about the topic.
Considering it was YOU who replied to a comment of mine that had absolutely nothing to do with you with an unsolicited lesson from you on the proper usage of the English language, I'd reconsider who is the obsessed one. You know nothing about me or my life, but I can assure you it is nothing like what you've conjured up in that warped mind of yours. Please get back on your NPD meds- I think it's pretty clear with the amount of time you spend on this site spewing bullshit who is the one bored with their life, and their make believe wife. Now be a good boy and STFU... La La Land is calling you! :))
Westerners. They've just always gotta question the unknowable.
I've read that, to the Chinese, such issues as the creation of the world and the true nature of divinity were generally disregarded: after all, it is beyond the ability of the human mind to comprehend. They preferred to spend their time on questions that directly affected human life and the human experience.
How stupid it is to kill people over ideas beyond human understanding!
Why is the concept of a beginning to something unknowable? I realize a beginning rules out certain possibilities, but even if you remove the concept of time, there is still a who/what question (when is eliminated as it denotes time).
Why can't the human mind wrap itself around such a concept?
You are alluding to God who is not within confines of time.
I wonder if you are really asking the questions or if you are implying you already know the answer?
Maybe you are just trying to say you believe matter is eternal and had no beginning. That's basically what atheists build their vain philosophy on.......but it doesn't compute. It would all fall apart through ever expanding entropy and there is nothing to bring it together or cause it to materialize. Why people want to believe an ism which teaches life is meaningless and random and the individual has no real value......I guess they just love their sin more than life and don't care if it takes them into Hell like a moth into the flame because whatever pleasure they can find is a gratuitous moment.
I'm not alluding to anything less the fact that we cannot speak of anything existing before time, as before is a concept rooted in time. You cannot speak of anything existing before anything else without invoking the concept of time. To say that something, anything, existed before time is a nonsensical statement.
So you believe intelligence/consciousness is an illusion caused by chemical fizzes, and in reality you do not exist, fine. See if death gets you out for real and you don't wake up in Hell, if that's how you think you get out.
Bo, if you wake up in Hell, and I do believe you will because you demand proof that it contains sin throughout eternity in fire, it's your own fault. You hate God, your going to hate me, and I don't have time for you.
How long before you get proof that Hell is real and consumes sin forever? How long for you? I don't have time for you, you think you have time, enjoy it while you can.
If you want to die and go to Hell, that's not my problem. Deal with it head on when you wake up in Hell. Sorry I can't help you, lazybones. If you wanted answers, you would find them for yourself. If the only way you will believe Hell confines and consumes sin forever is to wake up in it, that's your problem and not mine..head on, deal with it. Dismiss it, whatever. You will see.
the hell I speak of is the place called Hell, where you are going as you ask for evidence. Your evidence is coming, and you are sure to get it? Don't believe me? that's not my problem.
I agree that time is a difficult concept to comprehend. Is it linear, is it circular, does time exist at all? We have created the concept, which may be causing the confusion. If all matter and energy existed forever ( with no time constraint), then it is much easier to grasp the big bang and other such events. Strangely, it still keeps open the concept of a higher power, and that all of this is being directed (in whole or in part). So I am still searching for the answer "does a higher power exist or not"?
Science tells us that life emerged out of non-life, so life is not supernatural.
Science also tells us that intelligence emerged from non-living matter so that intelligence in reality is no different than a rock.
We do not need repeatable scientific experiments to show these things, we can just believe them and dismiss life as being natural and not supernatural.
Science also tells us that intelligence emerged from non-living matter so that intelligence in reality is no different than a rock.
That is a false analogy.
There are qualitative differences between a rock and a sentient being.
Two things that are different - which you admit to in your first statement (i.e. intelligence emerged from non-living matter) in the case of life and non-life - are not the same. An egg emerges from a bird, but that egg is not the same thing as the bird which bore it; they may each have existed in that egg-state at one point, but they are not identical, for one is an egg and the other an adult of that species. Life did not arise from a rock, but from a group of nucleic acids which formed in the primordial soup and became enveloped by a lipid bilayer (which, thanks to its intriguing physico-chemical properties, occurs naturally in an aqueous solution), providing a closed environment which developed into a dynamic and interdependent entity, what we now think of as "life".
I thought chickens emerged from eggs. How can an egg emerge from a chicken if a chicken did not emerge from an egg? Now tell me, which came first, the chicken or the egg?
We do not need repeatable scientific experiments to show these things, we can just believe them and dismiss life as being natural and not supernatural. Since you say your intelligence emerged from primordial soup, your intelligence is primordial soup and your eggs are scrambled so who care if the chicken came before the egg or vice versa?
No matter how much you try to complicate the story of your belief, you are saying intelligence emerged out of mindless matter, there in reality you are mindless matter. That's what you want to be, so go for it....ride that train until it plunges over the cliff and see if you don't end up in Hell paying God what you owe for creating you...perfect service of your time
You must work hard at being naive. So very hard, for you are so very good at it. Well, everybody's gotta have something, right?
Since you say your intelligence emerged from primordial soup,your intelligence is primordial soup
My breakfast of bacon and eggs (sunny-side up) came from a live pig and a shell filled with gelatinous goop. Because my breakfast came from a live pig and a shell filled with gelatinous goop, am I eating a live pig and a shell filled with gelatinous goop?
Of course not!
Things change. Something that is in one state at time A may be in another state at time B, and the greater the difference between A and B, the greater the likelihood that that state will have changed. Thus, while some 4.2 GYA what is now me was not me, right now what is me is me.
Now, since intelligence is an intangible, a word used to quantify some pseudo-metaphysical neurochemistry that results in the ability of an individual to reason, remember, and create, it stands to reason that intelligence was not once of the primordial soup, for it does not physically exist - it is merely a descriptor.
I'm sorry your intelligence seems to be intangible. How can anybody reason with something intangible? How can matter produce intangibility? How can something intangible be rational?
so your intelligence is pseudo-metaphysical? Does that mean you are not real? Oh yeah, you are not tangible and not touched by reality because you do not exist, it is only an apparition caused by chemical fizzes and what may appear to be intelligence in reality is intangible and not real. That explains why you don't make any sense, thank you.
You must be brain damaged. Indeed, I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that this is the case. After all, who else could have so perfected the art of the idiot: no comprehension of what other people say, no care for reality, and only latching on to a single, out-of-context statement in an effort to enhance the appearance of your own naïveté?!
Do you believe that your thoughts are physical and have actual weight, shape, and tangibility? If so, then you just proved yourself wrong. If not, then where are they?
I believe I am real, therefore I am tangible, and every thought I have ever had or will ever have matters. You believe you are intangible, therefore unreal, and nothing you say or do or think really matters. Why you want to believe you are worthless and intangible is a mystery science cannot solve.
I know what you said, it was not taken out of context, you just know it's nonsensical so you are trying to hide it with more nonsense. Atheism is a joke, and somehow it's professors paint is as good and beautiful.....until they realize they are trying to add meaning to life, and then they will backtrack and recant like you are doing and try to change their meaning by saying things different ways...."we don't believe anything, we don't believe life or evolution is good or bad, we only believe we exist and we don't know why and we will un-exist and we don't know why and nothing really matters, that is the only thing we claim to know." It's a tragic comedy, a bad joke, and the joke is on you because you buy into it and as you are pushing God away, you are propelling yourself away from all goodness into the fire of Hell....where all sodomites will be.
But, when you can't see them, hear them, feel them, taste them, or smell them, are they really tangible?
every thought I have ever had or will ever have matters.
But the thoughts themselves are intangible. They do not exist in the purely physical universe.
You believe you are intangible
I am clearly tangible. I can feel myself (and feel I do!), smell myself (and smell I do!), taste myself (and taste I do!), yaddayaddayadda...
therefore unreal
If I am not real, then why are you discoursing with me?
Clearly you have some mental issues, since you just admitted to talking to something that you believe to be "unreal" - gotta make you question your deity, doesn't it?
until they realize they are trying to add meaning to life
The meaning of life is to procreate. DNA has been passed on in an unbroken chain from the beginning of life to the present day. The meaning of life is to continue that chain.
This is what many atheists believe, and I am inclined to agree.
Religious people - and, unfortunately, even many ir- - have some meta-mystical need for there to be more to life than just living and fucking and making the next generation. Why? I have never seen the reason for wanting anything grander - what can be grander than the Great Chain of Existence?
where all sodomites will be.
So then it doesn't matter what I believe, now does it? Since I am already a sodomite, why should it matter if I drink of the Spirit of the Lord?
You believe leprechaun's are real and tangible? So you are a leprechaun, or you are intangible? Please make up your mind, I know it's hard to do when thoughts are intangible.....maybe you will feel more tangible in your thinking if you hit yourself on the head with a hammer......not to hard, of course, if you knock yourself out it will only be more difficult to find anything tangible.
You can't drink of the Spirit of the Lord while you hold onto sin. If you will confess and forsake your sin, repent and believe on Him, He will come in to you and be in you a wellspring of water flowing up to eternal life, rivers of living water flowing out of your belly. He is better than sin, you are making a big mistake and a very poor choice. Choose Jesus, take sides with God against your sin and God will be on your side.
How do you know you are tangible if your thoughts are intangible and you think you are tangible based on having physical senses but when you think about it, you are thinking and thoughts are intangible so how can you really know?
Ohhhh, now I see what you are saying...you don't really have thoughts in your head, you have leprechans in your head and they are intangible and not real....
Ok......so your words are intangible and you are not real because you think the leprachans in your head are sodomites telling you that you can make intangible babies with your butt buddy.
Pantsy, those leprechans are trying to get you to fall into the fire of Hell and it seems like they are succeeding. You need to repent of your sins and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ so you will be saved from Hell.
well I guess I have to admit you have a point...I was the first kid in my third grade class to use cursive writing, and probably the first one to give it up and use nothing but printing except when signing my name or writing checks.
There is no such thing as life if it is not supernatural, there is only non living matter chemically reacting and you are nothing but a rock in reality, and no smarter than a rock because that is what you are....take all your primordial poop and compress it into a rock with your face on it.....the pressure of it's compression makes it fizz, and by your own words that is what you are...a fizz pop rock, mindless in reality and meaningless as you are nothing but random chance of compiled poop.
if an entity is dynamic and independent of nature, it is supernatural. Your ideas are self-contradictory, which is the hope of atheism...contradicting themselves out of life in hope of being relieved from pain and suffering in un-existence. You might as well blow your brains out as to believe that nonsense, but don't do it or you will wake up in Hell...you can be saved and have eternal life now. You have eternal life now or you have eternal dying, you will be in Heaven or in Hell forever.......prove me wrong.
mr slap shot we are close to no such thing my friend....if you are referring to anything in math or physics please explain your theory I would love to hear it.....im slow so speak slowly i get confused easily...who is dawkins that we should consider his words wise......
Dawkins it the esteemed idol of atheism who claims to be a scientist yet never contributed anything of real value to the scientific community, never invented anything, never applied technology to make anything or do anything better than it was previously done. He observed some animal behavior and took notes about it like any twelve year old could do. He's just a big mouth atheist who hates God, hates the Bible, and hates Christians......and he pretends to be a "scientist", promoted by atheistic education society after he sucked his way up in the circles of his schools by saying what they want him to say in philosophical areas which are not scientific and then claiming his beliefs are science. He is promoted just because of his big mouth, rude and crude hatred in his speeches against God, the Bible, and Christians.
Richard Dawkins has made NO contribution to science, developed NO technological advances, has NO scientific discoveries accredited to him. He has done nothing but word play in evolutionary beliefs and is placed on a pedestal by God-haters only because of his affiliations and BIG MOUTH. He is nothing but an atheistic hater of God and of people who trust in God and in actuality has nothing to show himself to be a scientist. If you want to be a real scientist, you would do much better to emulate somebody like the inventor of the MRI which revolutionized medicine.
Science tells us that life emerged out of non-life, so life is not supernatural.
Science also tells us that intelligence emerged from non-living matter so that intelligence in reality is no different than a rock.
We do not need repeatable scientific experiments to show these things, we can just believe them and dismiss life as being natural and not supernatural.
Pardon me for this repeated post, I wanted to be sure you saw it......I think it accurately defines atheism and evolution, does it not?
I agree. Even our Hindu scriptures (specifically the Bhagvad Gita) say "Don't get caught up in things you can't and never will be able to control or comprehend"
that was the annoying spell checker on the cheap pad I was using, with tiny lettering difficult to see and a pain to enlarge it all the time. Finally got my computer back. It was a funny typo there, and thank you for your good humor in the way you pointed it out.
LOL it's all good. But seriously, I do not understand why you think being unsure is being ignorant? I think the opposite! If you are 100% sure of something, you can understand it but we can never understand God or the Universe because it is too powerful and unimaginably large in all aspects. Isn't God Omnipotent, Omniscient, and Omnipresent? Humans can't comprehend such a being?
When you can know something, but you think it's better to be unsure, then you are being ignorant.
The fact that you claim to not understand God or the universe only means you do not understand or know God. I do. He reveals Himself to all who seek Him with their whole heart. You are preferring ignorance, refusing to know, not listening, shutting out the truth.
Just because you don't know is not proof that nobody knows. If you won't believe that you can know, then you will never know. I know that you can know, I know that I know and that is how I know you can know. You are being closed minded to knowing, and that is willfully ignorant. I'm not trying to insult you or anything, you are intelligent enough and well capable of discussion and good manners....just making a mistake to assume I cannot know something only because you do not know it and will not believe that I do know it.......you will always be in the dark and never know with that kind of attitude, and Hindu enlightenment may seem to be shimmering but it's a lie.
Ignorance is just the state of not knowing. If you do not know something you are ignorant. Not declaring certainty in the unverifiable, is not the same as being ignorant.
As Betrand Russel once said "The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt." I would chalk that up to the dunning-krugger effect.
who cares what Betrand Russel once said? If I tell you that you are going to get hit by a train, and you say, "I don't believe you", and I'm telling you the truth, you are being willfully ignorant and have no excuse for not listening, so when the train hits you, you deserve it for being so willfully hard headed ignorant.
"Not declaring certainty in the unverifiable?" You are euphemizing ignorance, correct, trying to make it sound intelligent? I told you the train is coming, ignoramous. You could have gotten yourself off the tracks by now, but you want to sit there and defend your ignorance.....I'm not standing on the tracks with you while you pretend to be sophisticated painting ignorance as a good thing.
If I tell you that you are going to get hit by a train, and you say, "I don't believe you", and I'm telling you the truth, you are being willfully ignorant
No, in that situation I would be expressing doubt, not ignorance. If I said "I don't want to know", that would be an example of willful ignorance. Do you see the difference?
You are euphemizing ignorance, correct, trying to make it sound intelligent?
No, not correct. I'm talking about certainty vs doubt. I'm expressing the virtue of not being overly certain of things we do not fully understand. Certainty is more often driven by psychological/interpersonal need than by empirical warrant.
If I tell you the truth, and you express doubt, you are being ignorant. Your doubt does not make the truth irrelevant. You will get hit by the train if you doubt that it is coming, and it will be your own fault for being ignorant, after I told you the truth and you ignored me. When I tell you the train is coming and you are going to get smashed if you don't get off the tracks, it makes no difference if you say "I don't want to know" or "I don't believe you". No matter how you say it, I told you the truth and you are being ignorant.
You are trying to justify ignorance, plain and simple. I know what you are really trying to do, no thanks to Terdran Bustle.....you are trying to justify your own rejection of God in a desperate effort to convince yourself that you have the right to exist outside of Hell, trying to use ignorance as an excuse and no Judge ever allows ignorance as an excuse for breaking the law.
There is no virtue in uncertainty, just confusion. I'm telling you that you can be certain of things you want to be ignorant of, and you are free to be ignorant but the train is coming just the same.
If I tell you the truth, and you express doubt, you are being ignorant
You appear to be using ignorance and stupidity interchangeably as many people do, however this is not the correct usage. Nevertheless the principle issue here is whether I have sufficient reason to believe whatever it is that you are telling me.
You've heard of the fable of the Boy who cried wolf, right? After falsely crying "wolf!" multiple times, when the boy is actually set upon by a wolf the villagers do not believe the boy's alarm. The villagers are being given true information, there is really a wolf this time, but they have no compelling reason to believe the alarm given the numerous false alarms that preceded it.
If you tell me there's a train coming, and I see that I am standing on train tracks, and I can hear the whistle of a locomotive in the distance then I am likely to believe you. If you tell me there is a train coming and I am sitting in my living-room on my couch, then is little chance that I will believe you.
you are trying to justify your own rejection of God in a desperate effort to convince yourself that you have the right to exist outside of Hell
First I would have to believe that such a place existed outside of the narrative of an ancient mythology.
trying to use ignorance as an excuse and no Judge ever allows ignorance as an excuse for breaking the law
You seem to be clinging desperately to this notion that I am a closet believer in denial, as if it makes you feel better that ostensibly intelligent people disagree with your position. A position, I'm guessing, that sometimes you don't always understand yourself.
Science tells us that life emerged out of non-life, so life is not supernatural.
Science also tells us that intelligence emerged from non-living matter so that intelligence in reality is no different than a rock.
We do not need repeatable scientific experiments to show these things, we can just believe them and dismiss life as being natural and not supernatural.
I never said you are not intelligent, you are obviously intelligent. Being intelligent does not preclude being ignorant, and by your own words you claim that your doubt is a virtue and I am only saying you are being ignorant and trying to make ignorance into an idol.
The train coming when you are sitting on the tracks saying you don't believe it was not realistic enough. It's better to say that the train is death and you are riding it to the end of the line, in need of being saved before it reaches it's final destination. You can ignore the facts, but if you want me to believe you are wise.......sorry, I believe you are a fool, an intelligent fool trying to deny reality.
You say "First I would have to believe that such a place existed outside of the narrative of an ancient mythology."
Ok, if that's the way you want it, that's the way you will get it and if you do, you can't deny that you asked for it and blaming God for giving it to you wont' help. You are saying the only way you will believe Hell is real will be to find yourself in the fire unable to get out. I say you are epitomizing the word "fool", and being ignorant and you seem to want to prove it in death, so enjoy your train ride while you can.
Science tells us that life emerged out of non-life, so life is not supernatural.
I assume you're referring to Abiogenesis, which hypothesizes only that there are natural chemical processes that account for the appearance of life on earth.
Science also tells us that intelligence emerged from non-living matter so that intelligence in reality is no different than a rock.
Erm...no, not quite. "science" doesn't say this, there are models on the development of intelligence in humans, however intelligence in the biological sense predates humans and probably already existed in our non-human ancestors before us to a lessor degree. In any case, organic life would have been around for quite some time before the advent of anything we are willing to call "intelligence". To say that because the evolution of life from inert chemicals occurred somewhere in the same causal chain, therefore rocks which are vaguely similar to the inorganic chemicals at the beginning of that chain is "no different" to anything that came after is profoundly moronic.
It's tantamount to saying, "Cars have metal frames, therefore cars are no different than iron ore". It reeks of desperation.
We do not need repeatable scientific experiments to show these things
Then why did Urey and Miller bother with their experiment? For shits and giggles?
I never said you are not intelligent, you are obviously intelligent. Being intelligent does not preclude being ignorant, and by your own words you claim that your doubt is a virtue and I am only saying you are being ignorant and trying to make ignorance into an idol.
No, I'm saying I am ignorant whether I like it or not, and so are you, and every other person on this planet. We are all ignorant about a lot of things. We don't even know the full extent of what we don't know. I acknowledge this, and I accept it. I do not pretend to know things I do not know. It's okay to not know things, that doesn't mean I am content to remain that way.
The train coming when you are sitting on the tracks saying you don't believe it was not realistic enough.
I don't advocate doubt in the face of compelling evidence, I advocate it in the absence of it.
It's better to say that the train is death and you are riding it to the end of the line, in need of being saved before it reaches it's final destination. You can ignore the facts, but if you want me to believe you are wise.......sorry, I believe you are a fool, an intelligent fool trying to deny reality.
I cannot tenably base my understanding of reality upon unwarranted fear. Show me the train tracks. Let me hear the whistle. Let me feel the tremble of the ground. Let me see the smoke in the distance. Your train is invisible, it makes no sound, emits no smoke, makes no vibration, and rides no tracks, and yet you ask me to be afraid. I ask what is the difference between an invisible train that makes no noise, so smell, no vibration and a non-existent train?
Men before you or I have feared invisible trains that were never there, but you tell me this time it is different. I ask you, how do you know that the train is there? You give me the same answer as everyone before: faith. And you don't see why I am still unconvinced?
It is you who does not understand his position, that is the theme of all your idolized philosophers.....you don't understand your positon and you go on and on and on trying to figure it out, even inventing doctoral degrees in philosophy and no matter how much you read, write, or recite you still can't understand your own existence.
No you used the word "ignorance" when what you meant was stupidity. To be informed of something and still not 'get it' is stupidity not ignorance. It would only be ignorance if you were never taught in the first place.
Bertrand Russell co-authored Principia Mathematica, a founder of Analytic philosophy, was an accomplished mathematician, and one of the most well known logicians and philosophers of the 20th century. If you have any education at all in philosophy or even a meager interest you would have most certainly heard his name before.
I don't care what Bertrand Russell co-authored or what he said. He's only a man who deserves to burn in Hell and if he won't admit it, he's a liar and his philosophy will be twisted.
Your education in philosophy is worthless if you don't start with fearing God. I have no interest in vain philosophies spouted from ungodly people. I read enough of them, probably several times more reading than you have done on the topic and Bertrand Russell surely said nothing new.
If you had any sense, you would fear God and not place the philosophies of lost people above His word. Your attitude is insulting, and I'm sure you think I'm insulting you when I am only telling you the truth....and you feel insulted because you are too proud to admit God is smarter, stronger, and better than Bertrand Russell or Plato or Confucious or however you spell his name, or any of those fools who impress feeble minded folk by putting big words together to mask their own confusions.
I suspect you don't have much care for what anyone said that exacerbates your epistemological insecurities. You haven't insulted me, or at least I don't feel insulted.
Your education in philosophy is worthless if you don't start with fearing God.
I wouldn't have much intellectual constitution if I started with my conclusion. Logic informs us how to arrive at our conclusions rationally. Perhaps you have no interest in that, and I think there are many who don't, however I do. This is because i care less about what I believe and more about whether or not it is true. I suspect the opposite is the case for you, because I find that often faith is merely a means to an end -- to comfort our fears and anxieties. In that case it doesn't matter whether the faith is true or not, only that we believe it.
I would fear God, as I would fear anything, if I had good reason to believe that there was a God to fear. You've only presupposed that there is. On the contrary, I have yet to find a way to distinguish the invisible & unmeasurable, from the non-existent.
You won't fear God because you think you are smarter, stronger, better than Him.
Um...no. I obviously couldn't be smarter than an omniscient being. That's not the issue. If he existed he would clearly be better than me in every way. I don't fear God because I'm not convinced there is one to fear.
You say He does not exist, so that means you must be smarter than God. You don't fear God because you think you have the right to exist outside of Hell. Say it however you want to say it, state your unbelief and deny the facts. You think you have the right to exist outside of Hell, and you think you are smarter, stronger, better than God.
What part of "I don't fear God because I'm not convinced there is one to fear" are you having trouble grasping?
You say He does not exist, so that means you must be smarter than God.
This doesn't even follow. For me to think that I am smarter than God, I would have to assume that he exists; I do not. I have stated this several times in no uncertain terms. What part of this are you having trouble understanding?
You are either not as smart as God or you are smarter than God in your imagination. By saying there is no God, you are declaring yourself to be smarter than Him........without proof. If you don't come to your senses, you are going to force God to leave you dying forever in Hell as you are dying forever now. God is giving you time outside of Hell because He wants you to be saved from it and your time is almost gone
Only God can save you from dying, only God can give you eternal life and get you out of eternal dying.
The only way for God to save you is that He plunged into your dying, paid your price, and rose from the dead to deliver you from Hell into eternal life. If you will not believe on Him, Jesus, and receive Him as your Savior, you will remain on the train of death heading for Hell when it reaches the end of the tracks and goes over the cliff. If you don't want to believe it, that's your problem, not mine. If you prefer ignorance, and you think your doubt excuses your sins, that's your choice.
You presuppose (an unnecessarily pompous word.......the proper word is "suppose", I don't even think "presuppose" is a word as it seems to be redundant without cause) that you have the right to exist outside of Hell. Fine. You are free to believe that as long as you can believe it, and maybe you can believe it even if you find yourself unable to get out of Hell...you can forever say "I have the right to exist outside of this fire because I did not choose to exist, therefore I don't deserve this miserable existence".......isn't that what you are saying now, without mentioning the fire? The only difference in your philosophy now is that you are trying to leave out the fire of Hell when you say you have the right to exist outside of it because you did not choose to exist and cant' be held at fault for the things you have done because you had no choice in existing.
So you have no fear of God. Ok, that's your choice. You can hate God forever.
which of those statements are you referring to as "opinions" and not factual. We can go over them...analytically with objective science, historical record, and philosophy.
Comparing God to Batman is hateful toward God. You are going against God so how can God not be against you? You can't make God go away, you can only cause yourself to be forever removed from knowing any of His goodness in Hell.
I have read plenty of philosophers.....read them non-stop for years trying to find out what was right or wrong in life.......and all I found was that they don't know and they are confused and expect you to admire them for trying to figure it out.
Then I found the truth, when I realized I do not deserve to live now or ever and I feared God knowing He had poured out His wrath against sin on His Son who took my place in death, and He is risen from the dead, I fell down in front of God desperate for His mercy, believed on His Son, and He raised me up to stand with Jesus in His resurrection and now He is my life, His life is eternal, the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ, I have eternal life.
Bertrand Russell and Plato and all of those ignoramuses have nothing but death, as they try to get you to ride along on their train of doubt driving headlong over the cliff. Your intellectual constitution is nothing but confusion following vain philosophy, and the best you can do with it is to bolster your pride in thinking you are too good to burn in Hell.......in other words, your philosophy is no good at all.
I have read plenty of philosophers..... Bertrand Russell and Plato and all of those ignoramuses have nothing but death
That's interesting given that you've never heard of Bertrand Russel until yesterday.
the best you can do with it is to bolster your pride in thinking you are too good to burn in Hell.
I don't think I am too good, I simply have no reason to suppose that such a place exists in the first place. Theologically don't you find it curious that the Jews had been practicing their religion for thousands of years with no concept of hell and with no mention of hell anywhere in the Torah, but then Christianity appears on the scene and suddenly there is this new concept of Hell? If there was a Hell its peculiar absence from the torah seems to be a gross oversight, no? It seems to me that Hell is a christian invention, perhaps borrowed from the Greeks. The first bible was written in Greek after all, and Hell is first called Hades (Hell comes from the German spelling).
Bertrand Russell no doubt offers anything new in philosophy. Why should I be interested in his stuff? He's lost and uncertain of his own reality.
You think you are too good for Hell, so you do not care if it is real. You have no way of knowing there is no Hell, and the way you are asking for proof of it is not the way you really want proof, but you are leaving God no option but to let you burn in Hell in order for you to have proof that He rules over you. It's not a wise way to go, and Bertrand Russell could care less so why should I be interested in his stuff? I never heard of Richard Dawkins until last year......why in the world should I care what people like those guys say? I can't talk to them, I can talk to you. I' care about what you say because I know who you must answer to on Judgement day and I don't want to see you fall forever in Hell.
You are trying to dodge the real issue, that you cannot get out of the reality of being accountable for every moment of your time in everything you say, think, and do. You are trying to avoid facts of reality...you are dying and need to be saved or you will be lost forever and have the proof of Hell you want to believe is not there. You're being a fool and looking to vain philosophers who teach you to believe in uncertainty as if it gives you an excuse for ignoring the truth. You are riding that train and need to be saved before it plunges over the cliff
Bertrand Russell no doubt offers anything new in philosophy. Why should I be interested in his stuff? He's lost and uncertain of his own reality.
You mean aside from being a founder of Analytic Philosophy, pioneering Type Theory, Definite description theory, and Logical atomism, and numerous other contributions to the fields of Mathematics, and logic that have made him one of them most well renown Philosophers of the 20th century? Aside from all of those things, yes, he has offered nothing new to Philosophy.
But don't allow me to question your expertise of a person you didn't even know existed 24 hours ago.
You are trying to dodge the real issue, that you cannot get out of the reality of being accountable for every moment
Or rather you are trying to wrap your brain around the fact that someone might not share the same beliefs as you. Preposterous, I know. Of course everyone believes exactly what you believe and if they say they don't they must be liars and they are secretly believers in denial to avoid some bogey-man punishment that your religion prescribes for the audacity of not believing something for which there is no evidence. It's not quite as effective when the threatened punishment is no more believable than the belief it is supposed to enforce.
When Rome coerced her citizens into believing that Caesar was an emissary of the divine, at least the punishment for dissidence was a real one.
You are trying to avoid facts of reality...you are dying and need to be saved or you will be lost forever
Oh no! Say it ain't so! An invisible and un-testable disease that we are all born with, and will doom us all in a way that is entirely imperceptible to physical reality. If only someone had an equally specious cure entirely imperceptible to physical reality that would save us all!
Analytic philosophy is useless if it can't get you out of dying...it's all just double talk making excuses for ignorance, that's all the "great" philosophers are. I know enough about Bertrand Russell just by the things you say you believe yourself and you uphold Russell as one of your leaders. He's leading you on a train to Hell.
Analytic philosophy is useless if it can't get you out of dying
As far as being in denial of facts, I have found yours. You are going to die eventually, that is a fact. That is about as hard as facts come. There is no "getting out" of it.
Wrongo, soldier son. I have eternal life which is the gift of God through Jesus Christ our Lord...He is your Lord too, but since you reject Him as your Savior you will face Him as your Judge with His blood trampled under your feet when He gave His life to pay for your sins but you keep telling Him to go away and leave you in the name of Hell alone, so that's what He is doing and because He is reluctant to give you what you are asking for, He is holding back from letting you have it....but He won't hold back forever. You need to get saved before it's too late and you are lost forever.
Jesus conquered our death so that we can have His life. If you believe on Him and receive Him as your Savior, He will be your life and you will have eternal life.
This means life is worth the living no matter how bad things may appear.
This means you are precious, important, have objective undeniable value above any creature on earth (equal of course to other people)
This means life is meaningful, and God is good.
Life means God is good, and you can know that you have eternal life if from your heart you believe on the resurrection of Jesus Christ and receive Him, the LORD GOD ALMIGHTY, as your Savior.
There is no hope without being saved. If you think evolution is doing you any good, go with it. I don't know where you think it will take you, but evolution means:
Life has no objective meaning, and you are not important.
Nobody can stop your dying.
Nobody can save you.
There is no way of knowing if enduring the pain and sufferings of this world is worth it
It's really worthless because it's meaningless and hopeless.
Why do you think people want you to believe this stuff?
I'll give you a clue....they have sins they want to hide.
sounds to me like Rissell is just a big bag of hot air, and you can go on and on in uncertainty following the warm wind until you are blue in the face and it wont' get you out of dying and won't stop you from waking up in Hell.....go ahead and be proud and brave and insist you don't need to be saved and you won't be saved but you sure have been offered God's salvation and returned His offer by spitting in His face....and you don't deserve to die and burn in Hell?
Bertrand Pussel's philosophy leads to death. I know more about his vanity that He does because He is denying reality. Tell me the guy believes he deserves to die and burn in Hell and then I will say I'm wrong. We all deserve to die and burn in Hell. Anybody who will not admit this is being dishonest and their philosophy is more than a waste of time, it's an abuse of time.
If I am speaking earnestly, it sounds to me that your theology has less to do with a genuine concern for truth, and more to do with coping with your death anxiety.
and again, in your uncertainty, and that of all your esteemed philosophers, you have nothing but dying, it all leads to death. You can go on and on and on trying to explain why your doubt is justified, but your doubt does not justify your life and you are condemned to die. You need to be pardoned by God from your sin, and He made the way possible by becoming a man and paying your price so you don't have to pay in Hell. He died for you, the eternal God died to pay for you so you don't have to pay eternally in Hell if you believe on Him. If you refuse Him as your Savior, you will be refused and left in your own death on that train taking you to Hell and it's your own fault if you get the proof of Hell you say is not there.
Well you sure are trying to insult me implying I have "epistemological insecurities which can be exacerbated by pretty much anyone who tries to challenge my faith."
I have no such insecurities. You are the one who clings to doubt as if it's a virtue, you said so yourself. I was like you before I knew the truth.
You don't care about what you believe but you care about whether or not it is true? And you hold up your doubt as a virtue? You are ignorant of the truth but somehow you don't care and your carelessness is a philosophical virtue?
All your idolized philosophers do is construct unending treatises of doubletalk. I used to read them, and then would put one down and move on to another when I saw the prior was using double talk trying to excuse his lack of knowledge of what is real and true.........then I realized they are all the same, vain in their philosophies and I started getting into Hinduism, went pretty deep in it....existentialism, basically the same as atheism except for believing in an impersonal divine force of which we are all part of. Atheism replaces that force with "nature" while the philosophy follows Hinduism in all other points...with many atheists even conceding that the only god they can believe in would be that force which permeates nature...straight out of Star Wars.
Bertrand Russell and Plato are just tragic comedies of vain philosophy, ever learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
The fact that you, and people you follow, claim to be ignorant of many things only proves that you are ignorant of many things. I'm telling you that you can be saved from dying and you are being ignorant. You can be certain of having eternal life in Heaven, as I am certain but you seem to prefer ignorance and somehow you think it's virtuous. I think it's dumb. If you really want the truth, you will find it but you keep insisting we are all ignorant so you will remain ignorant and when you say you want the truth, you are not being honest.
know that He loves you and gave His only begotten Son, who is God the Son, to die for you so you don't have to die for yourself, and you can be forgiven in His resurrection. Repent of your sin and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, receive Him by faith as your Savior, ask God in Jesus' name to save you from Hell, believing in your heart that He is God who died for you and is risen from the dead, conquered death to be the justifier of all who believe on Him.
This is according to God who knows you better than you know yourself and has the hairs of your head numbered. He sent His Son to be the propitiation for your sins so He can consider your debt to be paid in full with your sins covered by His blood so you are pardoned and not condemned in judgement as Jesus, God in the flesh, took your condemnation on Himself when He gave His life to pay for your sins, and rose from the grave proving He is willing and able to forgive all who believe on Him and receive Him as their Savior. You have to believe the truth to know the truth......we all deserve to burn in Hell and all will burn in Hell except they receive God's forgiveness and pardon in His Son, Jesus.
I'm trying to say the same thing many different ways hoping you will see. Jesus is the truth. If you want to know the truth, you have to believe it. If you won't believe it, you can't know it and won't have an excuse when you appear before the Judgement seat of Christ where Jesus will be your Judge on the throne of God after you rejected Him from being your Savior.....I really hope you will not reject Him and end up rejected by Him and cast away into the Lake of Fire which is the second death.
What if I do all of the things, but instead of Jesus I pray to Vishnu, or even my parents? I want to have his blessings, but it seems silly to me if I worship someone else but keep him in my mind; aka worship him in another form. Us Hindus think that what we worship is not important, who we do is. If God really is all knowing and compassionate, he will save all the Christians, Hindus, Muslims, and even Atheists that are devoted to one of his offspring.
Did Vishnu die for you? Did your parents die for themselves or are they dying for you?
Who ever said what you do is not important? God sees it all, and the tiniest little thing you have done wrong is justification for Him to end your time outside of Hell.
Your wrongs separate you from Him and hold you on death row, in death, dying, and everything you ever did wrong grieves God because He cannot be good if He allows wrongs to go unpunished and He loves you so much that He Himself became a man and took your punishment on Himself so that you can be relieved of that punishment, relieved of death. He rose from the grave to be your justifier, as He paid in full for you so He has the right to forgive you while those who reject Him He has the right to reject and leave in Hell. God love you. What did Vishnu ever do for you?
God will save everybody who believes on His Son and receives Him as their Savior in reality.....and if that reality ever becomes known true by you, you will have Jesus in your heart, as He gives a new heart to all who receive Him and lives in them by His Holy Spirt which in them is a river of living waters flowing out and springing up to eternal life.
Without Jesus you have eternal dying and Vishnu can't do anything to get you out of it.
Then sorry, I have to be Hindu. I respect your belief but it is over simplifying a lot. Vishnu has done a lot for me. My parents have done a lot for me. And you have done enough for me. Thanks for your time, but I guess you won't be ale to change my belief.
anything that claims to be good and calls itself "Vishnu" is a demon, the spirit guide of Hinduism are demons leading you to think you can be good enough.
You don't have to be Hindu. You can think for yourself. You don't have to believe everything your parents tell you.
I was deep into Hinduism myself, though not the hardline type who cared about Vishnu. I was more of Hare Krishna guy, who needs Vishnu? You can follow the Hindu idea to seek "enlightenment" all by yourself. You don't need Vishnu any more than you need Krishna, because in Hinduism you are by your own efforts believing you can reach or achieve 'Nirvana" or perfect peace or bliss or whatever you want to call it....oneness, whatever. It's a lie, reality obviously proves you cannot be good enough for anything but dying. Hinduism is really no really no different than atheism, both religions promise their follower that they are their own divinity.
It doesn't make sense to ask what came before the first instance of time. The concept of "before" involves time. Time did not exist, so it doesn't make sense to ask what came before the thing that nothing came before.
mr blizzardbird... i believe you are wrong sir ...im sorry if this upsets you but time does not exsist...at all i can prove this most certainly if given a chance ..POST SCRIPT..my spelling is terrible and my grammar is very poor i have only had a 4th grade education so i struggle sir.....
mr blizzardbird... i believe you are wrong sir ...im sorry if this upsets you but time does not exsist...at all i can prove this most certainly if given a chance ..
Don't worry about upsetting me, I'm absolutely fine.
Anyway, why do you believe time does not actually exist? I know you may say time is about perspective, but time is merely just the sequence of events and what particular order they happen in. Things don't happen all at once, so there is such a thing as time.
I know that hours, minutes, etc are just measurements of time that mankind has invented, but that doesn't mean that time in itself does not exist.
ok let me first say thank you for at least listeining to me and putting up with my spelling ....but prepare to be dazzeled...so in order for something to be real in scientific terms you must be able to replicate it....please tell me sir in anyones words what experiment replicated time ...events you say .....well lets look at events....as it happens it is a reality but the second it happens its gone only to exsist in a nontangible reality of memory.....you cant capture an event and relive it in real time reality....cant happen....now the actual concept of time is a version of relativity ...and then some ...lets say you and I never meet does your time concept interrupt mine..if your late am I late .....so if an unrelated time event occurs that im not aware of it never happened in my time line there for does not exsist till I view it....superposition theory...101...your reality is not mine there for your 9 am is not my 9am my early is not your early so on and so on ...this makes time a cellular solar concept not a blanket reality that everything is subject to....and knowledge of events is reality of events...because any event unviewed does not have a relation to a know reality..............that is why nutrinos have no position until they are viewed because it cant be a reality till it is a reality....and this is the 4th dimesion network were strings of reality connect in a vast web creating a dimensional reality and thus creating critical mass effect and mandela effects....now if you get into the 4th dimensional network you can back trace events in post time because a reality shared is a reality in common time and is able to be reflected apon...now think of this in a circular patter a day begins and reconciles back to its self in a new beginning but unless you use a picture representational system you don't have a concept of new beginning and old ending...as if you were in a zero light cave with no clock or solar patter to guide you your cells still follow a mock 24 hr patter because of the binary in the particles of your mass superstring theory in working form....but as far as being solar common time accurate ...don't hold your breath.....your mind will slip off its track .....and your new 24 single time is now irrelevant to the common time hence you and your events are falling in the woods with no one to listen.....so no sir time is only relevant in 4thdimesional conscience network of shared reality ...events outside of this are not part and parcel until viewed in network.....this is all very simple ...take a clock you have 12 3 6 9 as main number values you can square these numbers to obtain the next value but you cannot cube ...why is this..... well because it is NOT a 3rd dimensional object period ......hence not real thank sir for your time and consideration ...in these matters
I believe that the Big Bang was not the beginning of our universe but the end of another which was consumed by a black hole, that dispersed according to Hawkings theory and that the same fate will reach our universe and the loop will continue into omega 1 in a power set (for those of you who are not mathematicians, infinity).
If not only space but also TIME were created with the Big Bang, which happened some 13.67 BYA, then there is not need to postulate what occurred before it. Since if TIME were created WITH the BB, there by definition was not time BEFORE.
Hence, nothing to discuss. And time IS a tangible thing. A part of the very fabric of the Universe. A part of the Space-Time Continuum. This has been proven. Several times. Beginning back with Einstein and ongoing throughout history with examples of super accurate clocks actually slowing down when they travel at very fast speeds.
We can tell you step by step what happened with universal formation from within a fraction of a fraction of a second AFTER the BB. On a clock, it would look like this......0.00000000000000000000000000000000000000043rd of a Second!!!
Who care about before? LOL. There was nothing. No time. I know our homo sapien minds are not evolved to fathom the idea of "nothing" but that does not mean it's not true. It's just like: you cannot see atoms or quarks. But they still exist!
wow that is some theory...if you don't mind i humbly ask how on earth did you manage to find this out....and how sir is time tangible can you buy it sell it own it kill it hold it ...did the word tangible have a new meaning assigned to it....time is a 2 dimensional concept backed up in this dimension by a unified cellular response to growth and replication to give this illusion the feel of reality...sir...superstring theory has recently found that all matter has within it a ribbon that vibrates and has the engineering blue print in it to dictate things like time concept growth and the end of replication hence death..in this form...unless you think your lab is better suited for research on this matter than professor gates...(not bill )...i was under impression from the white house he had the best lab and most advanced theory on this to date but you say different so ok ....let me ask you this ...if space debris travels at 7 to 10 km per sec and the boson hicks collided at 299000 and change km per sec why such a speed difference...and why do scientists believe that this particle is to be so small let me ask if a boson hicks is somewhere in a quark or gluon and these particles are in an atom could you not just use atoms ...i mean if i put you in a house and se the house on fire did you not burn with the house...because you were in it......time space ...this to is funny have you had the pleasure of seeing most professors use spandex and marbles to show this .....again can you explain this concept in the third dimension....because to date this has not been done ...not by a single solitary person not einstien tesla or any other physics math person....please explain vibrational pitch theory to me .....and please tell us how a bang was created...as i know this a bang is a reaction......but anyone with a mind knows that there was no bang and the energy wave particles ride on is the voice of GOD ....and were was the time space thing proven....my friend its a theory and nothing more...and give me a black board and internet and i can prove beyond doubt its all shit theory ...i think of this as cotton candy for your mind....it is junk sir you throw some numbers and ebrieviations out there and feel super smart....but i feel all you did is rip off some one elses homework and flawed work no less....im sorry you have been lied to and buy the little magic shows you have been to but i can point out the illusion to you in almost every aspect of this from mit to british imperial collage and ohio state to Stanford..i have seen it all my friend and its all crap and i can prove it .....you would get a better show at the movie theater based on more than most of these things you have stated ...thank you for listening again im sorry for my spelling and grammar i have only a 4th grade education so i have few school tricks to fall back on
If there was something that exploded in the Big Band, then there was time since time is relative to things. You can't have something that exploded in the Bib Bang without having it for a time before it exploded........and of course we don't want to discuss what caused the explosion or how big the thing was before it exploded, because not even the best of our computer geniuses can get a computer to model such nonsensical ideas.......computers will kick it out as "cannot compute".........but who cares about that, some people just need to believe in the Bib Band.
I think it is impossible to prove how something came from nothing. With every scientific experiment, there is always something in existence to start with.
Imagine a petri dish with nothing in it and then trying to make something appear.
God being the creator of life would be the easy answer and then people ask where did God come from. It is very hard to wrap our minds around something being here forever.
Endless space with no borders is a mind blowing concept but then if you say there is an end to space, what lies beyond that border? Nothing? How can there be nothing? Now if space were a circle like the diameter of a planet, it would come to an end and meet up with the beginning of the circle. But that does not tell us what would be above the diameter of the universe.
Why not ask an easy question such as why do Progressives think they have the right to redistribute our money as they see fit. The obvious answer being they are arrogant controlling extremists :)
There isn't anything more meaningless than mentioning feminists and the KKK in a debate about the big bang. Do you ever get tired of having your descriptions of people fit you better than anyone you are trying to describe?
He clearly demonstrates that he gets the points of many arguments. He is simply pointing out that while you ban people for going off topic, you consistently go off topic on just about every debate you post that isn't yours.
Your analogy makes no sense. The KKK is a singular organization. Feminism is an umbrella term for a group of ideologies.
You have zero knowledge of feminism, so you decry this group that you have seen portrayed that are called "feminists". Chances are they adhere to an ideology called Radical Feminism. They do not make up anywhere near the majority of all Feminists. I highly recommend you take even 5 seconds to research the different forms of Feminism, because once you do, you'll see my comments are not meaningless at all.
i cant imagine why it is ok to ban some one on here is not the point of debate to see and hear things not yet seen and heard....that is shameful to silence someone if a man is an ass people will see it and treat him according let me ask you this if every man and woman who thought outside the norm was silenced were would we be as a people....be the bigger person allow his side to be heard i agree his comments are weird but so are mine ....sometimes i think so fast i cant type as fast and i come off very poorly....we all have faults but lets not be in a hurry to use our position to silence people that is just creepy ....
The people i ban have proven many times they have nothing that has not been seen nor heard a thousand times before.
It is shameful to always tear someome down for their opinions. The people I ban NEVER EVER agree or support what I have written. They have but one purpose and that is to tear down anything I say.
You see I am a Conservative and a Christian. Many on this site are bigots and Liberals who will do anything they can to tear down my beliefs.
I have better things to do then allow extreme fanatics to tear down other's opinions.
sir a well built wall is hard to tear down ...build better defenses a champion who cherry picks his fight is no champion at all this is the arena of thought ...you will get knocked down some times it is ok and besides what about the wallflowers who need to here the truth more than once ..you silence one you silence all ....thank you any consideration
You are missing the point. They can not tear down a well built wall as you say. I do not fear their constant deception because only fools would believe their lies.
What I refuse to do is waste my time bantering words with these extremists. There is nothing i could ever say that would change their brainwashing from the Left.
If you think you can change their minds on anything, go for it. I have learned after many attemps, it is a waste of time. It would be like getting Hillary to compromise on abortions. She is an extremist bought and paid for by feminists.
I will better spend my time with honest people who are not such extremist ideologs. I want to debate people that will question who they are and what they support with their vote.
Well, I believe that God existed before the Big Bang and created the Big Bang as well. However that may not float well with others so maybe everything just sort of existed in another form and we are a small part of this giant network of universes.
I think it is what you believe in and how much you care about the belief, there are many rumors from which i can not decide so i just stick with one idea and that's it,saying that we don't have enough knowledge to answer this question i would consider this question as a million dollar question saying that no one has enough knowledge to know what really happened.
we don't know we might never know maybe it was created just for us to search for a possibility or maybe an idea hasnt come up that makes 100% sense and nothing so far is proven 100%
I don't necessarily believe in God, but I do believe in a creator. Honestly, I feel like we have existed forever (the universe I mean). I don't know what the word would be for beings outside of our universe would be (I guess they would be called extra-universal?) but I think that, in a sense, the universe was created by a God. And when I say God, I mean other humans.
Think about it, scientists have been studying the conditions that led up to the big bang. What if, somehow in another universe, those scientists succeeded and our universe is the end product? I know there are a lot of theories on that as well so I guess I'm not the only one who believes that, but that's where I think it came from.
As for what existed before... absolutely nothing. Like some of the other answers stated, the universe before the big bang (or before it even became a universe) was probably just a large void of nothing with no dimensions or time. As for the particles that "existed" in that void, they came from somewhere. And the stuff that made up the particles came from somewhere. And yeah, it's a cycle. Something doesn't come out of nothing, so someone had to have put it there.
I think that space time did not exist and that time was constant. Some kind of singularity must have pulled all matter together and bending space time and thus creating the big bang.
well if there was nothing before big bang then there would be nothing now 0+0 will never ever give you 1 use your common sense please ! We understand that higher power whşch is Creator created it ! otherwise it can t be in this system man think about it someone even leading snow mates falling from sky think like that what if they stick each other in sky and fall on us like giant snowballs it would kill us snow would be disaster ! and snow mates ara not same all of them are different shapes and have different lookings it is proven ! I call it God "Allah " Creator
We will never ever know the true facts of the history which came before us. We only know this through theories and stories which have been passed down and twisted a bit like Chinese whispers and it's our choice whether we want to believe them or not - a bit like religion. Somehow or some way the universe was here but Earth was just a tiny atom like a star and over millions of years it evolved to how it is today. The Earth is still expanding right now! And I bet you after another few billion years it will be completely different to how it is now, it may have grew so big that it exploded or the over populated amount of people may have increased by 500% and caused the Earth's plates to cause a giant earthquake which destroys the whole world but we will never know as it will never be in our lifetimes.
Science tells us that the universe is expanding, Science also expects it to start "falling back" (contracting). IF that is all true, and I certainly believe it,, when enough of it falls back it would create a massive "black hole" and explode again from the massive pressures, creating ANOTHER "big bang". That will likely "create" more creatures somewhere in the new universe,. They will be afraid because they don't understand the things around them, they will probably "create" a "god" where they can find some answers within their imaginations, until they develop a science which gives them REAL answers. The more things change, the more they stay the same. "BANG"!!!
Science tells us nothing of the sort. The red shift has other explanations which are no less credible then the so-called "expansion" of the universe. Relativistic Doppler effect has a lateral component, so we would also observer red shift in a rotating universe.
There was/is something that either always existed or materialized out of nothing. Then that thing created everything else from parts of itself or from nothing. This possibility, by definition, would constitute a God creating the universe.
It is not clear that the first thing can exist forever.
It is not clear that the things created can exist forever.
It is not clear if consciousness needs physical matter to exist or if it can exist on its own. If it can exist on its own, then it is not of this “material” world. If it cannot exist without matter then it should still be able to exist simply as energy since matter and energy are interchangeable.
Fact: we live in a universe of cause and effect. Everything that happens has a cause. No exceptions.
It should be obvious that something, or someone, created the universe. The only alternative is that it happened all by itself. Somehow, all the energy in the entire universe, which shouldn't even exist without a Creator, gathered together in one tiny spot, then decided to explode. No one knows how it got there, or why. They accept it on faith alone. How is that any different than believing in a Creator? Maybe God caused the big bang. Ever think of that? Makes a lot more sense than it having happened on its own.
Regarding your first reply, show one example of something happening without something causing it to happen. I won't even comment on your supposes mind reading abilities.
I assume that your comment about one exception is in reference to God. Stop and think about it. God is not a part of our universe. He exists outside of time and space, which He also created.
The rest of your comments aren't even worth replying to.
Regarding your first reply, show one example of something happening without something causing it to happen. I won't even comment on your supposes mind reading abilities.
God.
Stop and think about it.
No, asshole. You are the one who isn't thinking about it at all.
God is not a part of our universe.
Completely irrelevant.
He exists outside of time and space, which He also created.
Stop and think about that.
The rest of your comments aren't even worth replying to.
One group believes a fact that they can't prove "we live in a universe of cause and effect. Everything that happens has a cause. No exceptions." and in something existing without a cause.
The other group doesn't believe that there is definitely a cause for everything and believes in something existing without a cause.
By definition, the second group makes a lot more sense and requires less faith.
hello and thank you for the people who actively read my statements ...I am a tinkerer in science and math im not very good at either so please bare with me as I struggle ....first I would like to state that physics is a passion of mine and again im just a simple man so im sorry if I butcher what I hope is eloquent and on point ....if we start with a few major theories one being vibrational pitch theory this pretty much tells you that all matter is held together and pulled apart with vibration or frequency of an energy wave and that different matters resonate at different frequencies and changes to this frequency can seriously alter the state of a given matter.......kind of like GOD speaking things into existence....next we have super string theory ....this is were we learn that particles inside gluons and quarks have a glowing ribbon inside them that have a sort of binary code that gives these particles the boarders of what they are what they can and cant do....this ties to superposition this is amazing this is neutrinos are nothing until viewed then they at a 50/50 ratio become either black or white hard or soft...and can change at will when not being viewed ....they cant be pink or square so something wrote the binary code in these particles ....just like the blue prints of genes were not eventually formed from nothing.... this map or code or blue print was written by a master engineer ....then lets look at the LHC now they will tell you this is a machine to replicate the big bang....LOL...actually the top secret project alice is a dimensional portal project to move matter in an energy field thru dimensions ....because when they first started this goofy big bang cover story ...they said the lack of speed was they reason for failure....then they reached the desired speed ...nothing ...as far as a big bang anyway ....then they changed to they needed smaller particles (boson hicks) particles.....but let not so common sense enter in here ....if I put a mouse in my pocket and you drop a atom bomb on me did you not bomb the mouse as well.....to those of you who struggle as I do ..this means an atom collided is a gluon collided ...so on and so on...but this is just a cover story.....because they know as well as any low level Satanist knows we did not come about by a big bang ....this is brain food for surfs ....but any way let us take GOD at his word then he is a circle he has no beginning and no end...in this we also must look at our child like thoughts on time GOD says one day is as a thousand years and a thousand years is as one day....this because time is a 2nd dimensional concept...meaning you cant touch it you cant save it you cant see it you cant react with it ....in our third dimension ...you see matter reacts as though there is time because a code in the replication process tells each cell this far and no farther....and destructive cells begin to build this gives the illusion of time ....what is funny is when people think they can evaluate time passed....by carbon....a forest fire would throw off any such attempt.....so if matter was created by a bang then what created the concept of time...and the cellular interaction with this illusion.......next we have alternate dimensions...mostly just one more worth mentioning....dimension that is ....so we also have the velocity...as it is in the vacuum of space ....we are told ..lol...that space debris moves at around 7 to 10 km per sec......yet the big bang was totally unnatural boson hicks particles colliding at 299000 and serious change km per sec....why such diverse speeds on these particles and not space debris...asteroids and other mythical space stuff ....then lets take the 2 dimensional space time fabric concept ...and the spandex illustration given at universities....this is so laughable ...if the earth is in the third dimension.....suffice to say this reality we live in is mostly a david copperfield esc illusion ......perhaps one day we get into gravity....another fun myth.....all these topics are designed to detract people from truth....here is the truth...very powerful people think the morning star is the enlightener of man he set us free and GOD set us up in the garden....notice the piece of shit didn't have eve eat the tree of life first...no just the tree of knowledge to cause separation from GOD ....next these evil simpletons know that aliens are the fallen archon moving thru dimensions using energy fields they created the crafts to suck the US into reverse engineering them so they could spoon feed theses people to were we are today....aliens are demons....and once the cern people open the pit dimension apollyon will be released and the earth will be in serious jeopardy ....next and this is coming soon genetic hybrids as in archon and man mix animal and man is already happening but the final straw will be the mix of archon and man ...so to whom ever puts out this propaganda of science and big bang I want you to know I don't fear this I don't fear them and I know the truth
If this was a math test no but it takes me so long to write I have no concept of pictures in realation to value ...so I rewrite a million times ...but my brain also out runs my brain so I speak in my mind faster than time can allow me to type or process then I get to three sometimes for lines of thought processing in sequence ya this not easy and it never comes out right ...if I could youse a black board I would be so much better .....thank you for reading my stuff I'm sorry it's not better
hello and thank you for the people who actively read my statements ...I am a tinkerer in science and math im not very good at either so please bare with me as I struggle ....first I would like to state that physics is a passion of mine and again im just a simple man so im sorry if I butcher what I hope is eloquent and on point ....if we start with a few major theories one being vibrational pitch theory this pretty much tells you that all matter is held together and pulled apart with vibration or frequency of an energy wave and that different matters resonate at different frequencies and changes to this frequency can seriously alter the state of a given matter.......kind of like GOD speaking things into existence....next we have super string theory ....this is were we learn that particles inside gluons and quarks have a glowing ribbon inside them that have a sort of binary code that gives these particles the boarders of what they are what they can and cant do....this ties to superposition this is amazing this is neutrinos are nothing until viewed then they at a 50/50 ratio become either black or white hard or soft...and can change at will when not being viewed ....they cant be pink or square so something wrote the binary code in these particles ....just like the blue prints of genes were not eventually formed from nothing.... this map or code or blue print was written by a master engineer ....then lets look at the LHC now they will tell you this is a machine to replicate the big bang....LOL...actually the top secret project alice is a dimensional portal project to move matter in an energy field thru dimensions ....because when they first started this goofy big bang cover story ...they said the lack of speed was they reason for failure....then they reached the desired speed ...nothing ...as far as a big bang anyway ....then they changed to they needed smaller particles (boson hicks) particles.....but let not so common sense enter in here ....if I put a mouse in my pocket and you drop a atom bomb on me did you not bomb the mouse as well.....to those of you who struggle as I do ..this means an atom collided is a gluon collided ...so on and so on...but this is just a cover story.....because they know as well as any low level Satanist knows we did not come about by a big bang ....this is brain food for surfs ....but any way let us take GOD at his word then he is a circle he has no beginning and no end...in this we also must look at our child like thoughts on time GOD says one day is as a thousand years and a thousand years is as one day....this because time is a 2nd dimensional concept...meaning you cant touch it you cant save it you cant see it you cant react with it ....in our third dimension ...you see matter reacts as though there is time because a code in the replication process tells each cell this far and no farther....and destructive cells begin to build this gives the illusion of time ....what is funny is when people think they can evaluate time passed....by carbon....a forest fire would throw off any such attempt.....so if matter was created by a bang then what created the concept of time...and the cellular interaction with this illusion.......next we have alternate dimensions...mostly just one more worth mentioning....dimension that is ....so we also have the velocity...as it is in the vacuum of space ....we are told ..lol...that space debris moves at around 7 to 10 km per sec......yet the big bang was totally unnatural boson hicks particles colliding at 299000 and serious change km per sec....why such diverse speeds on these particles and not space debris...asteroids and other mythical space stuff ....then lets take the 2 dimensional space time fabric concept ...and the spandex illustration given at universities....this is so laughable ...if the earth is in the third dimension.....suffice to say this reality we live in is mostly a david copperfield esc illusion ......perhaps one day we get into gravity....another fun myth.....all these topics are designed to detract people from truth....here is the truth...very powerful people think the morning star is the enlightener of man he set us free and GOD set us up in the garden....notice the piece of shit didn't have eve eat the tree of life first...no just the tree of knowledge to cause separation from GOD ....next these evil simpletons know that aliens are the fallen archon moving thru dimensions using energy fields they created the crafts to suck the US into reverse engineering them so they could spoon feed theses people to were we are today....aliens are demons....and once the cern people open the pit dimension apollyon will be released and the earth will be in serious jeopardy ....next and this is coming soon genetic hybrids as in archon and man mix animal and man is already happening but the final straw will be the mix of archon and man ...so to whom ever puts out this propaganda of science and big bang I want you to know I don't fear this I don't fear them and I know the truth
Where we are today exists and the factors that separate the future from the past exists.
So in effect, time exists as a bunch of factors within the present that separate consequences, so in effect time does exist.
Just the events that occurred in the past but ceased and the future which has yet to exist do not.
Hola and thank you for the people who actively read my statements ...I am a tinkerer in science and math i'm not very good at either so please bare with me as I struggle ....first I would like to state that physics is a passion of mine and again i'm just a simple man so i'm sorry if I butcher what I hope is eloquent and on point ....if we start with a few major theories one being vibrational pitch theory this pretty much tells you that all matter is held together and pulled apart with vibration or frequency of an energy wave and that different matters resonate at different frequencies and changes to this frequency can seriously alter the state of a given matter.......kind of like GOD speaking things into existence....next we have super string theory ....this is were we learn that particles inside gluttons and quarks have a glowing ribbon inside them that have a sort of binary code that gives these particles the boarders of what they are what they can and cant do....this ties to superposition this is amazing this is neutrinos are nothing until viewed then they at a 50/50 ratio become either black or white hard or soft...and can change at will when not being viewed ....they cant be pink or square so something wrote the binary code in these particles ....just like the blue prints of genes were not eventually formed from nothing.... this map or code or blue print was written by a master engineer ....then lets look at the LHC now they will tell you this is a machine to replicate the big bang....LOL...actually the top secret project alice is a dimensional portal project to move matter in an energy field thru dimensions ....because when they first started this goofy big bang cover story ...they said the lack of speed was they reason for failure....then they reached the desired speed ...nothing ...as far as a big bang anyway ....then they changed to they needed smaller particles (boson hicks) particles.....but let not so common sense enter in here ....if I put a mouse in my pocket and you drop a atom bomb on me did you not bomb the mouse as well.....to those of you who struggle as I do ..this means an atom collided is a gluon collided ...so on and so on...but this is just a cover story.....because they know as well as any low level Satanist knows we did not come about by a big bang ....this is brain food for surfs ....but any way let us take GOD at his word then he is a circle he has no beginning and no end...in this we also must look at our child like thoughts on time GOD says one day is as a thousand years and a thousand years is as one day....this because time is a 2nd dimensional concept...meaning you cant touch it you cant save it you cant see it you cant react with it ....in our third dimension ...you see matter reacts as though there is time because a code in the replication process tells each cell this far and no farther....and destructive cells begin to build this gives the illusion of time ....what is funny is when people think they can evaluate time passed....by carbon....a forest fire would throw off any such attempt.....so if matter was created by a bang then what created the concept of time...and the cellular interaction with this illusion.......next we have alternate dimensions...mostly just one more worth mentioning....dimension that is ....so we also have the velocity...as it is in the vacuum of space ....we are told ..lol...that space debris moves at around 7 to 10 km per sec......yet the big bang was totally unnatural boson hicks particles colliding at 299000 and serious change km per sec....why such diverse speeds on these particles and not space debris...asteroids and other mythical space stuff ....then lets take the 2 dimensional space time fabric concept ...and the spandex illustration given at universities....this is so laughable ...if the earth is in the third dimension.....suffice to say this reality we live in is mostly a david copperfield esc illusion ......perhaps one day we get into gravity....another fun myth.....all these topics are designed to detract people from truth....here is the truth...very powerful people think the morning star is the enlightener of man he set us free and GOD set us up in the garden....notice the piece of shit didn't have eve eat the tree of life first...no just the tree of knowledge to cause separation from GOD ....next these evil simpletons know that aliens are the fallen archon moving thru dimensions using energy fields they created the crafts to suck the US into reverse engineering them so they could spoon feed theses people to were we are today....aliens are demons....and once the cern people open the pit dimension apollyon will be released and the earth will be in serious jeopardy ....next and this is coming soon genetic hybrids as in archon and man mix animal and man is already happening but the final straw will be the mix of archon and man ...so to whom ever puts out this propaganda of science and big bang I want you to know I don't fear this I don't fear them and I know the truth
Where we are today exists and the factors that separate the future from the past exists.
So in effect, time exists as a bunch of factors within the present that separate consequences, so in effect time does exist.
Just the events that occurred in the past but ceased and the future which has yet to exist do not.
Hola and thank you for the people who actively read my statements ...I am a tinkerer in science and math i'm not very good at either so please bare with me as I struggle ....first I would like to state that physics is a passion of mine and again i'm just a simple man so i'm sorry if I butcher what I hope is eloquent and on point ....if we start with a few major theories one being vibrational pitch theory this pretty much tells you that all matter is held together and pulled apart with vibration or frequency of an energy wave and that different matters resonate at different frequencies and changes to this frequency can seriously alter the state of a given matter.......kind of like GOD speaking things into existence....next we have super string theory ....this is were we learn that particles inside gluttons and quarks have a glowing ribbon inside them that have a sort of binary code that gives these particles the boarders of what they are what they can and cant do....this ties to superposition this is amazing this is neutrinos are nothing until viewed then they at a 50/50 ratio become either black or white hard or soft...and can change at will when not being viewed ....they cant be pink or square so something wrote the binary code in these particles ....just like the blue prints of genes were not eventually formed from nothing.... this map or code or blue print was written by a master engineer ....then lets look at the LHC now they will tell you this is a machine to replicate the big bang....LOL...actually the top secret project alice is a dimensional portal project to move matter in an energy field thru dimensions ....because when they first started this goofy big bang cover story ...they said the lack of speed was they reason for failure....then they reached the desired speed ...nothing ...as far as a big bang anyway ....then they changed to they needed smaller particles (boson hicks) particles.....but let not so common sense enter in here ....if I put a mouse in my pocket and you drop a atom bomb on me did you not bomb the mouse as well.....to those of you who struggle as I do ..this means an atom collided is a gluon collided ...so on and so on...but this is just a cover story.....because they know as well as any low level Satanist knows we did not come about by a big bang ....this is brain food for surfs ....but any way let us take GOD at his word then he is a circle he has no beginning and no end...in this we also must look at our child like thoughts on time GOD says one day is as a thousand years and a thousand years is as one day....this because time is a 2nd dimensional concept...meaning you cant touch it you cant save it you cant see it you cant react with it ....in our third dimension ...you see matter reacts as though there is time because a code in the replication process tells each cell this far and no farther....and destructive cells begin to build this gives the illusion of time ....what is funny is when people think they can evaluate time passed....by carbon....a forest fire would throw off any such attempt.....so if matter was created by a bang then what created the concept of time...and the cellular interaction with this illusion.......next we have alternate dimensions...mostly just one more worth mentioning....dimension that is ....so we also have the velocity...as it is in the vacuum of space ....we are told ..lol...that space debris moves at around 7 to 10 km per sec......yet the big bang was totally unnatural boson hicks particles colliding at 299000 and serious change km per sec....why such diverse speeds on these particles and not space debris...asteroids and other mythical space stuff ....then lets take the 2 dimensional space time fabric concept ...and the spandex illustration given at universities....this is so laughable ...if the earth is in the third dimension.....suffice to say this reality we live in is mostly a david copperfield esc illusion ......perhaps one day we get into gravity....another fun myth.....all these topics are designed to detract people from truth....here is the truth...very powerful people think the morning star is the enlightener of man he set us free and GOD set us up in the garden....notice the piece of shit didn't have eve eat the tree of life first...no just the tree of knowledge to cause separation from GOD ....next these evil simpletons know that aliens are the fallen archon moving thru dimensions using energy fields they created the crafts to suck the US into reverse engineering them so they could spoon feed theses people to were we are today....aliens are demons....and once the cern people open the pit dimension apollyon will be released and the earth will be in serious jeopardy ....next and this is coming soon genetic hybrids as in archon and man mix animal and man is already happening but the final straw will be the mix of archon and man ...so to whom ever puts out this propaganda of science and big bang I want you to know I don't fear this I don't fear them and I know the truth
Where we are today exists and the factors that separate the future from the past exists.
So in effect, time exists as a bunch of factors within the present that separate consequences, so in effect time does exist.
Just the events that occurred in the past but ceased and the future which has yet to exist do not.
First of all, I think you have a reasonable foundation and a decent grasp of things, as this definitely does etch the surface at least and I believe that you have actually given this some good thought, unlike a lot of people on this site.
When you say time does not exist, I think you may have a point as long as you believe everything occurs in the present.
We have a finite mind, we can only know that 1 = 1 or that the square root of 4 is 2 and the like (I have devised a formula that can solve any square root, but it is only out of my finite mind).
What I am trying to say is, the only things we know what quantities are, we don't know what makes numbers exist. What are numbers? Why do they exist? Why does 1 + 2 = 3, how can we prove it other than that in sequence 3 comes after 2 in sequence by 1? What does it mean when something exists? What is existence?
When most "Christians" say that we have finite means, they use it because they try to come up with an excuse that god is far more complex and that we can't understand him.
While it is true that we cannot possibly understand the one who created this universe (whoever this entity is), "Christians" who use the "finite mind" excuse tend not to know what "finite" means. It means we cannot grasp infinity, what makes a number a number and if our minds our "finite" it also means we can't understand the completely infinite realm that makes 1 the number 1, because behind our world is infinite in nature, what are quarks made of, what causes motion, really? What causes atoms to repel and pull, etc? We can't answer these questions in such simple ways because mankind in general has been trained to think in finite ways. It is only via thinking outside the box and this means by thinking outside of the finite and instead trying to think along the infinite that we can only even begin to guess how our universe works or the creator who made the universe and all the dimensions.
I'm an agnostic personally, but this is if there is a creator.
hello and thank you for the people who actively read my statements ...I am a tinkerer in science and math im not very good at either so please bare with me as I struggle ....first I would like to state that physics is a passion of mine and again im just a simple man so im sorry if I butcher what I hope is eloquent and on point ....if we start with a few major theories one being vibrational pitch theory this pretty much tells you that all matter is held together and pulled apart with vibration or frequency of an energy wave and that different matters resonate at different frequencies and changes to this frequency can seriously alter the state of a given matter.......kind of like GOD speaking things into existence....next we have super string theory ....this is were we learn that particles inside gluons and quarks have a glowing ribbon inside them that have a sort of binary code that gives these particles the boarders of what they are what they can and cant do....this ties to superposition this is amazing this is neutrinos are nothing until viewed then they at a 50/50 ratio become either black or white hard or soft...and can change at will when not being viewed ....they cant be pink or square so something wrote the binary code in these particles ....just like the blue prints of genes were not eventually formed from nothing.... this map or code or blue print was written by a master engineer ....then lets look at the LHC now they will tell you this is a machine to replicate the big bang....LOL...actually the top secret project alice is a dimensional portal project to move matter in an energy field thru dimensions ....because when they first started this goofy big bang cover story ...they said the lack of speed was they reason for failure....then they reached the desired speed ...nothing ...as far as a big bang anyway ....then they changed to they needed smaller particles (boson hicks) particles.....but let not so common sense enter in here ....if I put a mouse in my pocket and you drop a atom bomb on me did you not bomb the mouse as well.....to those of you who struggle as I do ..this means an atom collided is a gluon collided ...so on and so on...but this is just a cover story.....because they know as well as any low level Satanist knows we did not come about by a big bang ....this is brain food for surfs ....but any way let us take GOD at his word then he is a circle he has no beginning and no end...in this we also must look at our child like thoughts on time GOD says one day is as a thousand years and a thousand years is as one day....this because time is a 2nd dimensional concept...meaning you cant touch it you cant save it you cant see it you cant react with it ....in our third dimension ...you see matter reacts as though there is time because a code in the replication process tells each cell this far and no farther....and destructive cells begin to build this gives the illusion of time ....what is funny is when people think they can evaluate time passed....by carbon....a forest fire would throw off any such attempt.....so if matter was created by a bang then what created the concept of time...and the cellular interaction with this illusion.......next we have alternate dimensions...mostly just one more worth mentioning....dimension that is ....so we also have the velocity...as it is in the vacuum of space ....we are told ..lol...that space debris moves at around 7 to 10 km per sec......yet the big bang was totally unnatural boson hicks particles colliding at 299000 and serious change km per sec....why such diverse speeds on these particles and not space debris...asteroids and other mythical space stuff ....then lets take the 2 dimensional space time fabric concept ...and the spandex illustration given at universities....this is so laughable ...if the earth is in the third dimension.....suffice to say this reality we live in is mostly a david copperfield esc illusion ......perhaps one day we get into gravity....another fun myth.....all these topics are designed to detract people from truth....here is the truth...very powerful people think the morning star is the enlightener of man he set us free and GOD set us up in the garden....notice the piece of shit didn't have eve eat the tree of life first...no just the tree of knowledge to cause separation from GOD ....next these evil simpletons know that aliens are the fallen archon moving thru dimensions using energy fields they created the crafts to suck the US into reverse engineering them so they could spoon feed theses people to were we are today....aliens are demons....and once the cern people open the pit dimension apollyon will be released and the earth will be in serious jeopardy ....next and this is coming soon genetic hybrids as in archon and man mix animal and man is already happening but the final straw will be the mix of archon and man ...so to whom ever puts out this propaganda of science and big bang I want you to know I don't fear this I don't fear them and I know the truth
Where we are today exists and the factors that separate the future from the past exists.
So in effect, time exists as a bunch of factors within the present that separate consequences, so in effect time does exist.
Just the events that occurred in the past but ceased and the future which has yet to exist do not.
ok put time in your pocket and give it to a friend......lol...this is a joke ...but illustrates your refusal to realize the emperor isn't wearing pants...
ok put time in your pocket and give it to a friend......lol...this is a joke ...but illustrates your refusal to realize the emperor isn't wearing pants...
Time is actually scientific and mathematical.
Ever heard of time of distance equals speed? That's math and it's proven. Scientifically speaking E=mc2, so yeah, time is real. Just because something is real doesn't mean that you can put it into your pocket or even hold it.
Your theory is only correct if solipsism is right.
Energy in relation to mass ....is a proof of time ....no ...silly that is a constant variable in ezxcelleration ....and time is a unit of measure .....not ....the bases of theory ......as to say if you get closer and closer to zero mass you have better and better acceleration .....it also is a concept of the energy stored in mass this has to do with fusion enery when colliding atoms ..i.e. two things cannot contain the same space ....then there is fission were you split atoms all this is is the acceleration of energy in relation to mass ....silly.....time is a unit of measure in realation to calculating distance over time ....again a unit of measure....not bases of reality .....
Energy in relation to mass ....is a proof of time ....no ...silly that is a constant variable in ezxcelleration ....and time is a unit of measure .....not ....the bases of theory ......as to say if you get closer and closer to zero mass you have better and better acceleration .....it also is a concept of the energy stored in mass this has to do with fusion enery when colliding atoms ..i.e. two things cannot contain the same space ....then there is fission were you split atoms all this is is the acceleration of energy in relation to mass ....silly.....time is a unit of measure in realation to calculating distance over time ....again a unit of measure....not bases of reality .....
The thing is, speed is calculated by time over mass and such, but that isn't the only thing that determines speed.
The mass of the energy and forces pushing the object, as well as the mass of the object itself is what gives an object it's speed, regardless of whether or not we include time.
So speed does not have to be calculated by time. How can time and speed by circular? If the events didn't exist, if speed and time did both not exist in the past, then the future would not end up occurring and no movement would occur.
But this is false.
Speed if something valid, that can be proven scientifically and mathematically, so therefore time can also be deduced to be valid as well.
You might as well begin to explain that quantum theory doesn't exist too, which is silly. (don't call me silly, it's silly in itself for you to call me silly, I'm not silly).
that is not at all how speed is calculated ...and mass is not a factor of speed the calculation for speed is distance over time the mass speed thing you are trying to summon is velocity times mass is = to energy on contact ....the energy in all these goofy equations is gama ....not trying to be mean but have you even googled half the theories your trying to talk on.....e=mc2 is a mass equvilency theory it has to do with center mass shift of photons moving thru a mass as photons have no mass this is how they are relative to the speed of light ..... it is not a time oriented theory it was part ...only part of nuclear fission and fusion principal....and speed is a factor of only two things time and distance ...and in order for time to be a factor the 2 things mentioned half to have a start and an end because if you don't know the beginning or the end you can not calculate either the time or the distance and you cant calculate speed ...take for instance radar this works by calculating the speed of the energy wave the distance is calculated by how long ....ie..distance....the wave takes to come back so in effect it throws a ball and waits to catch the same ball then calculates the time of this process...eliminate any one of the factors in the cycle and effectually you have no radar.....what is phi and pi ....these are ways to calculate shapes in second dimension...and very important math factors in nature.....so there is your circular answer ...wow your not close to time ....events are the reality and time is a measure in reality ..what part of this are you not getting .....you don't have any understanding on these matters and are just trying to sound and feel smart ...google e=mc2 then google quantum mechanical theory then rethink retool your argument your not even close to on target ....I have participated in many cutting edge MIT british imperial collage and Stanford physics classes and have many conversations about thing like cern ..before they fired up to full speed im on record as telling them the big bang would not replicate but a dimensional portal would open I was refered to the security clearance of project alice and told to keep quiet as well as I have been a well recorded voice in the fight against real stem cell research and was in and now out of a project world from MIT .....so I know a regular mind trying to sound out of ordinary ....no offense but you are silly
that is not at all how speed is calculated ...and mass is not a factor of speed the calculation for speed is distance over time the mass speed thing you are trying to summon is velocity times mass is = to energy on contact ....the energy in all these goofy equations is gama ....not trying to be mean but have you even googled half the theories your trying to talk on.....e=mc2 is a mass equvilency theory it has to do with center mass shift of photons moving thru a mass as photons have no mass this is how they are relative to the speed of light ..... it is not a time oriented theory it was part ...only part of nuclear fission and fusion principal....and speed is a factor of only two things time and distance ...and in order for time to be a factor the 2 things mentioned half to have a start and an end because if you don't know the beginning or the end you can not calculate either the time or the distance and you cant calculate speed ...take for instance radar this works by calculating the speed of the energy wave the distance is calculated by how long ....ie..distance....the wave takes to come back so in effect it throws a ball and waits to catch the same ball then calculates the time of this process...eliminate any one of the factors in the cycle and effectually you have no radar.....what is phi and pi ....these are ways to calculate shapes in second dimension...and very important math factors in nature.....so there is your circular answer ...wow your not close to time ....events are the reality and time is a measure in reality ..what part of this are you not getting .....you don't have any understanding on these matters and are just trying to sound and feel smart ...google e=mc2 then google quantum mechanical theory then rethink retool your argument your not even close to on target ....I have participated in many cutting edge MIT british imperial collage and Stanford physics classes and have many conversations about thing like cern ..before they fired up to full speed im on record as telling them the big bang would not replicate but a dimensional portal would open I was refered to the security clearance of project alice and told to keep quiet as well as I have been a well recorded voice in the fight against real stem cell research and was in and now out of a project world from MIT .....so I know a regular mind trying to sound out of ordinary ....no offense but you are silly
You're just writing an entire paragraph that is basically just a load of repeats. I highly doubt you have contributed to anything. Take the radar for example, as you have mentioned. Speed is merely the factors that causes an object to move it's mass at a certain distance according to the numerical values that exist within space. The more energy that is exerted compared to the object, the faster it will go. Haven't you ever heard of Issac Newton and his idea of the laws of nature?
Moving happens in the present, movement is simply when numbers that make up our physical dimensions simultanously collide, the greater the numbers, the faster the object.
Why do you feel the need to belittle me? Nothing wrong with you stating your dubious creditionals, but I wonder why you feel the urge to accuse me of just putting on some silly show.
If you think I sound smart, then that's silly, because I'm talking about basic stuff here.
Ok I'm sorry I took so long to get back to you ....the e=mc2 is bullshit science designed to trip you people that's why it's so popular it's the cheese whiz of math....one what the fuck causes this shift against impact when you impact son thing it moves with impact...second no way to calculate the speed of a proton in those days ...and if they moved that fast guy why did the world build a several hundred billion dollar excellarator to speed up to the speed of light particles smaller than a proton .....junk fucking science and math and your just smart enough to memorize it but to stupid to see the smoke and mirrors this sight is useless ....Google the LHC then come back and try to explain the epic failure of every single math equation they presented in the last hundred years ....you people are fucking goofy
Ok I'm sorry I took so long to get back to you ....the e=mc2 is bullshit science designed to trip you people that's why it's so popular it's the cheese whiz of math....one what the fuck causes this shift against impact when you impact son thing it moves with impact...second no way to calculate the speed of a proton in those days ...and if they moved that fast guy why did the world build a several hundred billion dollar excellarator to speed up to the speed of light particles smaller than a proton .....junk fucking science and math and your just smart enough to memorize it but to stupid to see the smoke and mirrors this sight is useless ....Google the LHC then come back and try to explain the epic failure of every single math equation they presented in the last hundred years ....you people are fucking goofy
e=mc2 squared was just an approximation. Einstein came up with many excellent mathematical formulas and equations to calculate speed, time and mass.
A bit of research will do.
Anybody who thinks that Einstein's e=mc2 was his greatest work is badly mistaken. Einstein used e=mc2 as just a way to shut up the ignorant masses that would end up believed e=mc2, the mathematics Einstein really used was far more complicated than that, but the ignorant masses that absorbed the e=mc2 formula like it was the end all of all facts are ignorant regarding mathematics.
e=mc2 was just Einsteins ways of deliberately trying to satisfy the general population of idiots.
Im sorry I almost missed you solipsism comment no this is not true research th 100 monkey experiment....to reconfirm we have multiple units of time singular off network time line ...common collective time network this is all shared event or documented common time experience there is a vast conscience network well mapped and documented you just aren't aware of its reality but perhaps you have heard statements like the collective conscience or critical mass ....these in movies are never in right context so please do some research this will help you understand the insignificance of time....it is a unit of measure nothing more ...ask anyone who has done time in solitary confinement ...time and Trac of it is lost almost completely in a few hrs off the collective conscience network. ...your not following your math and your theories to the natural common end .....do you know how economies crash ....the numeric value system of measure is no longer in keeping with reality .....once this becomes public knowledge it's over ...now then if numericmeasure was always reality how is this so ....now take time zones wehave way more time zones than the "speed" of the earth alleged rotation ...a HUGE HUGE WHOLE in time distance memeasurement yet your reality of ignorance continues. ....this is until you finally realize numbers are just symbols like letters to mark a value it is a way to transfer thought and the value of thoughts ....not the reality of this thought .....hence put time in your pocket and walk it to the dank to deposit and save .....you cannot but you can clock time count time or measure solar events as time but if your in a dark room with a hot chic TIME DOESNT EXSIST.....you lose all sense of it ...because all we do as monkeys is crunch time for the masters.....you trade measures of life for measures of money ....this only happens here ...what a foolish life you all live .....
Im sorry I almost missed you solipsism comment no this is not true research th 100 monkey experiment....to reconfirm we have multiple units of time singular off network time line ...common collective time network this is all shared event or documented common time experience there is a vast conscience network well mapped and documented you just aren't aware of its reality but perhaps you have heard statements like the collective conscience or critical mass ....these in movies are never in right context so please do some research this will help you understand the insignificance of time....it is a unit of measure nothing more ...ask anyone who has done time in solitary confinement ...time and Trac of it is lost almost completely in a few hrs off the collective conscience network. ...your not following your math and your theories to the natural common end .....do you know how economies crash ....the numeric value system of measure is no longer in keeping with reality .....once this becomes public knowledge it's over ...now then if numericmeasure was always reality how is this so ....now take time zones wehave way more time zones than the "speed" of the earth alleged rotation ...a HUGE HUGE WHOLE in time distance memeasurement yet your reality of ignorance continues. ....this is until you finally realize numbers are just symbols like letters to mark a value it is a way to transfer thought and the value of thoughts ....not the reality of this thought .....hence put time in your pocket and walk it to the dank to deposit and save .....you cannot but you can clock time count time or measure solar events as time but if your in a dark room with a hot chic TIME DOESNT EXSIST.....you lose all sense of it ...because all we do as monkeys is crunch time for the masters.....you trade measures of life for measures of money ....this only happens here ...what a foolish life you all live .....
We cannot disprove of prove solipsism at this moment. I am sceptical against it just as much as I am in favour of it.
I am not in favour of solipsism at all.
The thing is, just because something happens that you didn't expect, doesn't mean that you aren't conscious of it. Something could be determined deep within the parameters of ones mind without them being aware of it. So the 100 monkey experiment might not necessarily disprove solipsism after all.
The thing is, how do you thing motor skills work? We are making so many calculations within our brains for hand eye coordination, yet we do not even know of the mathematics that our mind uses to calculate hand eye coordination. The human mind is a mathematician that doesn't even realise that it is using math, nor is it able to explain it or apply to theoretically, only practically.
3. Evidence for the Big Bang includes the fact that the universe is expanding at a constant rate. If we trace it backwards, we see all of the energy in the universe crowding into a single point in space-time.
4. Taken to its logical extent, (3) begins as a singularity, free of spatial dimensions, time and the fundamental forces of the universe.
5. Therefore (4) exists outside of the universe.
6. In order for something to exist outside of the universe, it presumably has to have ALWAYS existed. This point is generally used as evidence for God, however...
7. We know from the First Law of Thermodynamics that energy cannot be created or destroyed.
8. Therefore energy, which is the sum total of everything in the universe, has always existed and could have existed outside of space and time "before" the big bang.
9. So energy sort of takes on the role of "God" in this scenario. And really, we and everything we know (except space, time and fundamental forces) existed before the BB, we just all in a very different form.
While I do agree that God created the universe, I disagree on what that God is. Based off of what you said, it seems like you think that energy is this God. I do have a question though: Where did that energy come from? You're right when you say that the total energy of the universe is the sum total of the energy in the universe, that energy can't be created or destroyed, and that energy had to have had a beginning, much like the space and time that you mention. I personally believe that the God of the Christian bible is the creator of this universe and as such, created the time, space, and energy that we know of today.
Where did God come from? That's what I'm saying. It certainly does appear that SOMETHING had to exist outside of space and time to get the ball rolling. What I'm saying is we know there is an alternative: energy, which cannot be created and which can exist without space-time. This makes for a better theory because it is falsifiable. God is not.
How could God be God if he came from somewhere and was not always there? Saying. "Where did God come from" is a stupid rhetorical question and only makes you sound ignorant. Do yourself a favor and quit parroting ignorant cliché's.
I was comparing my stance with his. He asked "where did energy come from", which, as I explained earlier, is unanswerable as energy cannot be created and can exist beyond space and time. All I was saying is when you ask "what created everything", God is not the only possible answer. Responding only to the first five words of a longer reply makes you look like you have limited reading comprehension.
As a Christian, I believe he is self-existent as he is spaceless, timeless, and immaterial. He can't be comprehended by our minds. So you're right when you say he is not falsifiable. Science doesn't point specifically to the Christian God, just that it came from something as you believe already.
Energy which cannot be created and can exist without space-time
So just to clarify, you think energy is eternal? At least that's what I think you're saying. If that's the case, how has it not all been used up already? Or how is it being sustained at the level it needs to be at? While the law of conservation of energy, which is also the first law of thermodynamics, does state that energy can't be created or destroyed, it does state that energy can change forms and flow from one place to another. While this doesn't point specifically to the Christian God, it does point to something outside of itself. To me, it points to the Christian God
As a Christian, I believe he is self-existent as he is spaceless, timeless, and immaterial.
My point is that there is an alternative that can match all of those categories, at least before the big bang. Energy. After the Bang, energy became the sum total of everything in the universe. So in that sense it would be more like a pantheistic God.
So just to clarify, you think energy is eternal?
There are two ways to be eternal. One is to exist throughout time, the other is to exist WITHOUT time. If there is no time, there is no end. And time did not exist before the big bang, but energy could have. So it would be eternal and non-expendable before the BB and eternal but expendable after.
If that's the case, how has it not all been used up already?
Energy would not be expendable while in singularity. After the Big Bang all energy would expand beyond singularity indefinitely. As it is spent the universe increase toward entropy. We are nowhere near that yet. There was a LOT of energy in the first place. But entropy increases ever onward.
After the Bang, energy became the sum total of everything in the universe.
You're right. But only to an extent. Here's what I mean. If energy is the sum total of everything in the universe, that implies that energy only started to exist after the big bang. If there wasn't anything that existed before the bang, there would be no sums as there would be nothing. Not even energy. Also, part of what makes God God is that he is not only spaceless, timeless, and immaterial, but also intelligent, personal, and powerful. If none of that was true, then none of the physical laws or constants that help to keep us alive would exist. Since nature couldn't have created itself, it had to come from something supernatural. Energy, being a natural force (for lack of a better word), could not have existed before the big bang as it came into existence at the big bang.
So it would be eternal and non-expendable before the BB and eternal but expendable after.
There is no scientific evidence that energy is eternal. I know you said that energy COULD HAVE existed. This seems like, and this is just an assumption on my part, like a cop out to make it seem like you know what you're talking about (not that you don't, you seem like a very smart person).
One is to exist throughout time, the other is to exist without time.
By without, you mean outside of? If thats true, then energy would have to be a supernatural force. To take it a step further, it would also have to be independent of the universe. Since neither of those are the case, then that means that energy came into existence at the start of the big bang. I then point you to the link I gave you earlier in the reply
Why?
Because the Christian God is the only one that exists outside the universe as a spaceless, timeless, immaterial, intelligent, personal, and powerful creator since there had to be some kind of guiding force behind the creation of the universe and everything in it.
If energy is the sum total of everything in the universe, that implies that energy only started to exist after the big bang. If there wasn't anything that existed before the bang, there would be no sums as there would be nothing. Not even energy.
You are contradicting yourself and it sounds like you are arguing that energy can't exist. Can you rephrase please?
Also, part of what makes God God is that he is not only spaceless, timeless, and immaterial, but also intelligent, personal, and powerful.
I argue that intelligence and personality are not necessary. Power, on the other hand...that's basically what energy IS. Anything that can be done in the universe is done by energy.
If none of that was true, then none of the physical laws or constants that help to keep us alive would exist.
That proclamation never made sense to me. Why cannot energy be energy? Why cannot the rules of the universe simply BE WHAT HAPPENS to energy when you add space-time.
Energy, being a natural force (for lack of a better word), could not have existed before the big bang as it came into existence at the big bang.
Yes it can. Before the Big Bang there was no space-time, it simply was the singularity, which existed in eternity before there was time.
There is no scientific evidence that energy is eternal.
There is though. If there was no space-time, it would be eternal.
I know you said that energy COULD HAVE existed.
Well, I'm not saying I know what happened. This is all basically conjecture on my part. But based on what I know, there is no reason to think it could not have existed.
By without, you mean outside of?
I think "without" is more accurate, but outside works as well. I'm basically saying that if you go backwards through the big bang, there is no space or time.
If thats true, then energy would have to be a supernatural force. To take it a step further, it would also have to be independent of the universe.
You are assuming these qualities are permanent. Energy would of course be independent of the universe when there was no universe. But when the universe becomes a part of the equation, energy becomes a part of the universes equation. Once supernatural now natural by definition.
Since nature couldn't have created itself, it had to come from something supernatural.
Before the BB it was arguably "supernatural" but then it became basically the backbone of what we consider nature.
since there had to be some kind of guiding force behind the creation of the universe and everything in it.
You are contradicting yourself and it sounds like you are arguing that energy can't exist. Can you rephrase please?
Sure. First though, where would you say my contradiction is? Here's what I'm saying. If we are to think that energy is the sum total of everything that there is in the universe, then it had to have had a beginning. Primarily because there was nothing before the big bang because the sum total of nothing is nothing.
I argue that intelligence and personality are not necessary.
Being personal isn't the same as having a personality. Being personal means that you care about something and that something is yours. What's your opinion on why intelligence is not necessary?
Anything that can be done in the universe is done by energy.
Actually, according to science, things can be done through the use of energy, by it. That concept surrounds the laws of thermodynamics, especially the first one.
Why cannot the rules of the universe simply BE WHAT HAPPENS to energy when you add space-time.
Because the rules of the universe can't exist if there is no universe for them to exist in.
it simply was the singularity, which existed in eternity before there was time.
What singularity existed?
There is though. If there was no space-time, it would be eternal.
What evidence do you have that supports this?
Energy would of course be independent of the universe when there was no universe. But when the universe becomes a part of the equation, energy becomes a part of the universes equation.
Here's the problem though. The laws of thermodynamics describe energy as a part of nature. It doesn't describe energy in a supernatural way. Also, if energy started out as supernatural, how did it go about becoming natural all of a sudden? It can't decide to just be natural all of a sudden. There had to have been something guiding it to be part of the universes equation as you put it.
Before the BB it was arguably "supernatural" but then it became basically the backbone of what we consider nature.
So if something supernatural is the backbone of nature, how does energy fit into that?
Energy+space-time+fundamental forces.
Those may be forces, but how are they in any way guiding?
First though, where would you say my contradiction is?
That was my mistake. When I read it again I saw what you were trying to say. I will respond to it throughout my answers.
Primarily because there was nothing before the big bang because the sum total of nothing is nothing.
Who said there was nothing? I certainly didn't, and you don't seem to believe it since you believe God existed before the big bang. Logic tells us both that "something from nothing" is most likely impossible (there are other theories about ways to get around that, but my explanation is simpler, so by Ockham's Razor I choose this one for now). What I am proposing, is that all the energy that makes up the universe (including all that has succumbed entropy) was there before the BB, it just was in singularity. So it was very different than what we know now. But 100 still equals 100 no matter how you arrange the component numerals.
What's your opinion on why intelligence is not necessary?
If energy has different characteristics depending on the rules added to the equation, it will follow those by its very nature. For some reason we were given space-time and 4 fundamental forces when the Big Bang happened. Why? I'm not even going to pretend I have an answer for that. But it appears to have been the natural result of expansion of the singularity.
Because the rules of the universe can't exist if there is no universe for them to exist in.
Of course. But once you add expansion you get space-time and once you get space-time you get the universe that those rules start to effect.
What singularity existed?
THE singularity. Its what the big bang happened to. All the universe in one unbelievably tiny point.
What evidence do you have that supports this?
How can anything age or end if there is no time? Meanwhile, here where we have time, there is nothing eternal because time ages things and brings them to an end. Energy itself, not being created is eternal, but certainly not in any of the forms it assumes in our universe.
The laws of thermodynamics describe energy as a part of nature. It doesn't describe energy in a supernatural way.
That's because they aren't supernatural in our universe. Anyway, I argue that it isn't truly supernatural at all.
Also, if energy started out as supernatural, how did it go about becoming natural all of a sudden?
IF it is supernatural, energy would only be supernatural outside of our universe. All of the energy inside the universe is natural.
But anyway, I honestly don't believe in the supernatural. Its all energy whether it is in singularity or expanded into the universe.
There had to have been something guiding it to be part of the universes equation as you put it.
Not guiding, causing. What that is, I don't know. There are a number of interesting ideas to explain it, but we need more information to be sure.
Those may be forces, but how are they in any way guiding?
I didn't say they had to be. You did. Think about it this way, its like cooking. What you put in and what you do to it determine what you get.
Who said there was nothing? I certainly didn't, and you don't seem to believe it since you believe God existed before the big bang.
What I meant was that nothing natural existed before the big bang. God, not being a natural entity, did however.
Logic tells us both that "something from nothing" is most likely impossible
Only if you keep supernatural forces out of it. Energy, at least as we see it, being a natural force then could not have been what started the big bang as energy could not have created itself
What I am proposing, is that all the energy that makes up the universe (including all that has succumbed entropy) was there before the BB, it just was in singularity.
I go back to what I said earlier, energy being a natural force could not have created itself. It may have been part of the singularity but could not have started it.
Energy itself, not being created is eternal, but certainly not in any of the forms it assumes in our universe.
What evidence do you have for energy being eternal? For energy to be eternal, it would have to be infinite. It would also have to have the descriptions I mentioned earlier of being spaceless, timeless, immaterial, powerful, intelligent, and personal. Energy may be spaceless and immaterial, but to be eternal, it would have to remain timeless. Energy may have power to it, but is in no way intelligent and personal
That's because they aren't supernatural in our universe. Anyway, I argue that it isn't truly supernatural at all.
So do you think that it is supernatural or that it's natural? Before, you were saying that energy was supernatural but then you're saying it's natural. Being supernatural, it would have to exist outside of the universe and continue to do so. If it's natural, it would have to have been created which implies that it had a beginning.
But anyway, I honestly don't believe in the supernatural.
You would have to believe in the supernatural if you think that energy is eternal. Nothing in the universe is eternal because its natural. You even agree with that. I guess what my next question is, what do you mean by natural and supernatural?
Not guiding, causing.
This is assuming that energy is capable of creating something all on its own. As I mentioned earlier, to be able to do this, it would have to be spaceless, timeless, immaterial, powerful, intelligent, and personal. Energy all on its own does not fulfill all of these requirements
Since this relates to pretty much every other point you made, I'll start here. Supernatural means outside the laws of nature, natural is within them. Here's the thing, the universe is nature. So the laws of nature start with the big bang. "Before" the Big Bang we had nothing but all of the energy in singularity. Therefore, the laws of nature as we know them did not and could not exist. Whatever existed then was therefore supernatural. In my proposal, the singularity was all there was, so once the universe started forming, there was no longer anything supernatural. It may be possible that there are other "supernatural" things out there. Things that don't have rules to conform to. But if they entered our universe they would be subject to those rules and would no longer be supernatural.
Energy, at least as we see it, being a natural force then could not have been what started the big bang as energy could not have created itself
But energy was not natural prior to the Big Bang. That's what I've been saying from the beginning. And energy cannot be created, so we don't need to give credit to God or say "it created itself". This is something else I've been saying from the beginning.
It may have been part of the singularity but could not have started it.
Energy is ALL there is to this singularity, and did not have to be created. Since there was no time at that point the singularity probably existed both never and forever until whatever caused the Big Bang.
What evidence do you have for energy being eternal?
If something is not created or destroyed, that is the definition of eternal. Also, before the bb, it was eternal by default because there was no time.
It would also have to have the descriptions I mentioned earlier of being spaceless, timeless, immaterial, powerful, intelligent, and personal.
Not necessarily. These are independent qualities. "Intelligent and Personal" are definitely not necessary.
So do you think that it is supernatural or that it's natural? Before, you were saying that energy was supernatural but then you're saying it's natural.
During singularity? Supernatural. After Big Bang? Natural
This is assuming that energy is capable of creating something all on its own.
Well, not all on its own. It had help by the fundamental forces, and the other constants. But yes, energy can create EVERYTHING in the universe with those constants. NOTHING happens in the universe WITHOUT energy.
And energy cannot be created, so we don't need to give credit to God or say "it created itself".
When people say that energy can't be created or destroyed, what they mean is that we can't do it under our own power meaning that there is absolutely nothing that we as humans can do to create or destroy energy. God, existing outside of our universe and having those 6 qualities I mentioned, is completely within his power to do so.
Energy is ALL there is to this singularity, and did not have to be created.
The second law of thermodynamics states everything goes towards entropy if left to its own devices unless energy is put in to keep it at the level of order that its at. While this may seem like a case for eternal energy, we already know that couldn't have happened since the laws surrounding energy could not have existed before the big bang. This then leads back to your 6 favorite characteristics that are required before anything can happen.
Also, before the bb, it was eternal by default because there was no time.
If thats true, where did the energy come from?
Not necessarily. These are independent qualities. "Intelligent and Personal" are definitely not necessary.
They may be independent of each other, but based off of your earlier arguments, you're assuming energy has each of these qualities. Spaceless and immaterial by nature, timeless meaning that it exists outside of time making it eternal, powerful to the extent that it was able to create the universe and everything in it, and intelligent and personal to the point where it knew EXACTLY how precise the physical constants and laws of nature needed to be to support life in the universe and on earth.
Well, not all on its own. It had help by the fundamental forces, and the other constants. But yes, energy can create EVERYTHING in the universe with those constants. NOTHING happens in the universe WITHOUT energy.
Here's a problem. You're starting to contradict yourself. Earlier, you had said that the laws of nature as we know them did not and could not exist. Whatever existed then was therefore supernatural. Yet you are making a case for these constants being supernatural and existing outside the universe before the universe began. This is why I mentioned things like energy not being able to create itself and have those 6 qualities that I told you about. Yes. All 6 are necessary for energy to have created the universe. Energy can't just all of a sudden be like "hey I'm gonna make a universe just cause." Energy being part of nature had to have had a supernatural cause because, as I said, it can't create itself. It also can't do anything on its own. Energy just sitting there not doing anything is known as potential energy unless used to do work which turns into kinetic energy. Neither of these existed before the big bang since the natural laws weren't in place then. All this being said, there is no way that energy could have existed before the big bang.
When people say that energy can't be created or destroyed, what they mean is that we can't do it under our own power meaning that there is absolutely nothing that we as humans can do to create or destroy energy
No, what they mean is that as far as we know nothing can do it. Perhaps in the future that will change. But unless and until that time occurs, it is the law as we know it. If God exists, he could create or destroy it, but that is just adding an unnecessary step at this point.
we already know that couldn't have happened since the laws surrounding energy could not have existed before the big bang.
Most of the laws of physics break down because they require fundamental forces and other constants to function, and the constants require time and space, and none of this would exist in singularity. There is no known reason to believe the first law would break down as this is intrinsic to the nature of energy, just like being wet is intrinsic to the nature of liquid water. But the second law would break down because entropy only comes into play when you are expending energy, which would not happen without time and space. Its like you say later, the singularity was all of the energy in the universe in a potential state.
If thats true, where did the energy come from?
We've gone down this road before. Its like me asking you "where did God come from?" I'm stating it was never created because we know it cannot be created. It makes more sense to me to give credit to something I can identify and directly study, rather than to a totally unverifiable concept that has no concrete support.
You're starting to contradict yourself. Earlier, you had said that the laws of nature as we know them did not and could not exist. Whatever existed then was therefore supernatural. Yet you are making a case for these constants being supernatural and existing outside the universe before the universe began.
No I'm not, I never said anything like that. Time, space, fundamental forces and constants all came about, interconnected and in balance, at various points after the BB. The constants are obviously within the natural universe.
Energy can't just all of a sudden be like "hey I'm gonna make a universe just cause."
True, but we already covered this too. Like I've said, I'm not sure what caused the BB. Nobody knows for sure. Generally it is understood that there was some kind of fluctuation in the singularity. And there are multiple explanations why in cosmology and quantum physics. My whole point is that God is not the only option.
Energy being part of nature had to have had a supernatural cause because, as I said, it can't create itself.
You keep making me repeat myself. Energy would be "supernatural" when in singularity, natural after the BB.
It also can't do anything on its own.
When set in motion by expansion and effected by fundamental forces, energy can do all kinds of stuff.
No, what they mean is that as far as we know nothing can do it.
So basically what I said that humans under their own power can't create or destroy energy. All you did was clarify what I said and expanded it to everything.
Perhaps in the future that will change. But unless and until that time occurs, it is the law as we know it.
How so? This is a law of nature. For what you're saying to work, it would have to be proven wrong or you would have to exist outside of nature and change it yourself. All we can do is find different sources of energy.
If God exists, he could create or destroy it, but that is just adding an unnecessary step at this point.
What makes God unnecessary?
Most of the laws of physics break down because they require fundamental forces and other constants to function, and the constants require time and space, and none of this would exist in singularity.
So basically most of the laws of physics wouldn't exist because the things that make all the laws of physics necessary wouldn't exists?
There is no known reason to believe the first law would break down as this is intrinsic to the nature of energy
How so? The law of conservation of energy states that it gets transformed from one form to another. While this may sound like a case for eternal energy, it really isn't because this law came into effect after the big bang had already happened. Otherwise I would go back to the question I asked you earlier, where did it come from? As I mentioned, energy would have to have those 6 qualities that I mentioned and keep them. Something does't just lose its supernatural qualities just because something like the big bang happened
But the second law would break down because entropy only comes into play when you are expending energy
Which basically means that energy could only have existed at the start of the big bang.
Its like me asking you "where did God come from?"
He's self-existent and has each of these 6 qualities that I mentioned. Spaceless, timeless, immaterial, powerful, intelligent, and personal by nature. He would need each one of those qualities. Notice these are the same qualities you gave to energy that I mentioned earlier. So you could technically say that energy did exist before the big bang and it was God.
It makes more sense to me to give credit to something I can identify and directly study, rather than to a totally unverifiable concept that has no concrete support.
This claim makes me start to wonder how came to that conclusion since earlier, you stated that at one point it was supernatural. If its true that you only desire to study something verifiable and with concrete support, why make the claim that at one point energy was supernatural? Thats not verifiable or concrete so it fails under your own standards.
Like I've said, I'm not sure what caused the BB. Nobody knows for sure.
If no one knows, how can you be so sure about energy,space-time, or the fundamental forces having anything to do with the big bang?
Energy would be "supernatural" when in singularity, natural after the BB.
You had also stated in an earlier reply to one of my comments that you don't even believe in the supernatural which causes this statement as well the statements made before it and ones that you'll make after this one about energy being supernatural at one point contradictory.
When set in motion by expansion and effected by fundamental forces, energy can do all kinds of stuff.
So you're saying that expansion and the fundamental forces have those six qualities that I talked about? What happened to energy having this qualities? Or they all have those six qualities?
For what you're saying to work, it would have to be proven wrong
That's what I mean. Probably won't happen, but if it does, then my explanation would be proven wrong.
What makes God unnecessary?
Mostly energy and also space-time, forces and constants.
So basically most of the laws of physics wouldn't exist because the things that make all the laws of physics necessary wouldn't exists?
Exactly.
it really isn't because this law came into effect after the big bang had already happened.
Not necessarily. The other laws require space-time, or the forces, or the constants. This law only requires energy. And energy is believed to have been in singularity "prior" to the BB.
Which basically means that energy could only have existed at the start of the big bang.
No. It means the energy was in singularity and not expanding.
So you could technically say that energy did exist before the big bang and it was God.
LOL. I know its been a while, but I made both of those claims in my very first post on this topic. :)
If its true that you only desire to study something verifiable and with concrete support, why make the claim that at one point energy was supernatural?
I'm using that term because you are. But, as I believe I said before, I define supernatural as being outside the universe. Or in this case before. Since there are no known laws or constants constraining it, it isn't known how it would behave. It could well be omnipotent by default. So it is fair to call it supernatural BEFORE the BB. But after? No, once it began expanding out of singularity it began adhering to the laws of nature. So to recap: BEFORE BB- supernatural, AFTER- natural
If no one knows, how can you be so sure about energy,space-time, or the fundamental forces having anything to do with the big bang?
We know energy was involved because that is exactly what the BB is: a rapid expansion of energy. The other stuff almost certainly was NOT involved because it couldn't happen until the expansion started.
So you're saying that expansion and the fundamental forces have those six qualities that I talked about? What happened to energy having this qualities?
Energy has four. There is no intelligence, but you can say that intelligence is "simulated" by all those forces and constants acting together to create the laws of physics that energy responds to. There is also no personal. None needed.
Probably won't happen, but if it does, then my explanation would be proven wrong.
Are you talking about the laws of nature? Got kinda lost
Mostly energy and also space-time, forces and constants.
These things don't possess the ability or intelligence to create a universe like ours. Something would have to exist outside of them to create them inside of the universe.
Exactly.
The point I was trying to make was to show you that your line of reasoning doesn't make a whole lot of sense. At least not to me. If something that made everything else necessary didn't exist, then how could a process have started? Here's what I think is going on. You're saying that the laws of physics are necessary for the universe to be created but weren't created until the big bang. Energy, space-time, forces, and the constants are part of physics and, as I mentioned earlier, could not have created themselves nor did they themselves possess the ability to spontaneously create. They can't exist outside of themselves. A God who exists in a higher dimension with different laws for him to contend with. He wouldn't have to worry about using the physics of a three-dimensional universe as He created them. This is where the qualities of intelligence and being personal come in. Intelligence would be necessary since He would have to know exactly how the things like energy, space-time, forces, and constants would have to work to be able to have our universe and personal to allow for life to exist.
And energy is believed to have been in singularity "prior" to the BB.
According to who? Show me some evidence or websites.
It means the energy was in singularity and not expanding.
Just because energy was in the big bang, that doesn't mean it was there before
I made both of those claims in my very first post on this topic.
Actually, you said that it was possible for this energy to be the Christian God, but that he was only one possibility. What I've been trying to get at is that without those 6 qualities that I brought up, energy could not have done anything to create the universe or exist before it.
I'm using that term because you are.
Fair enough. One thing though. You use it even though you had mentioned earlier that you don't even believe on the supernatural. To use the supernatural as an explanation for something even though you don't believe in it doesn't make sense.
BEFORE BB- supernatural, AFTER- natural
You also said you don't believe in the supernatural. So how do you explain energy being supernatural if you don't believe in the supernatural?
We know energy was involved because that is exactly what the BB is: a rapid expansion of energy.
Energy being involved is just that: involved. That doesn't mean it existed beforehand, just that there was energy at the start of the big bang and after
The other stuff almost certainly was NOT involved because it couldn't happen until the expansion started.
Space-time would have to exist at the start of the big bang because if it was eternal at expansion, then we would never get to the next moment
There is no intelligence, but you can say that intelligence is "simulated" by all those forces and constants acting together to create the laws of physics that energy responds to. There is also no personal. None needed.
It would have to be intelligent to be able to have the constants that we have. Which is why it can't be simulated. The level of intelligence required would have to exist outside of it as it can't be acted upon on itself. It would also need to be personal to allow for human life since He values our human life
These things don't possess the ability or intelligence to create a universe like ours.
Of course it has the ability, that's exactly what they have done. No intelligence obvious or necessary.
then how could a process have started?
That's the big question, and like I said repeatedly, I don't know. Nobody does. There are alternative ideas out there like String Theory's brains or the notion that time flows backwards through black holes to the initial singularity or that when nothing else is left all current singularities will eventually be pulled together to form the initial singularity. Or the big crunch. These last three imply an infinite series of universes, one after the other after the other. None of the can be proven yet, but the have an intrinsic element of eventual verifiability, which God does not. I find them therefore far more trustworthy. All you are doing is falling into the "God of the Gaps" fallacy.
Energy, space-time, forces, and the constants are part of physics and, as I mentioned earlier, could not have created themselves nor did they themselves possess the ability to spontaneously create.
Energy always existed, like you would say of God. I just want to say that I do not expect you to believe what I'm proposing, but if you are going to try to explain back to me what I'm proposing I will thank you to actually respond with what I'm actually saying. I've had to repeat myself numerous times here. Thanks!
Anyway, I was doing research last night, and it appears that the forces, all combined into one, were present in the singularity, and its also worth mentioning that many people think that space and time were in there as well, although others, like myself, believe they simply did not exist until expansion.
And yeah, energy combined with all the other factors DOES have the ability to create EVERYTHING in the universe. Read about cosmology in the early universe, after the big bang up to the second-generation stars.
A God who exists in a higher dimension with different laws for him to contend with.
This isn't even a hypothesis, as it is unfalsifiable. Also, it violates Ockham's Razor.
Intelligence would be necessary since He would have to know exactly how the things like energy, space-time, forces, and constants would have to work to be able to have our universe and personal to allow for life to exist.
A human baby is an extraordinarily complex entity, but neither parent needs to know anything about how a fetus develops for the mother to carry the baby to term. The laws of nature do what they do. When the right factors are involved, these laws continue on, creating whatever it is they create.
According to who? Show me some evidence or websites.
We usually picture the singularity as the start of the Big Bang, but the big bang is expansion, with space-time coming into the equation. Before it was the singularity, without time and space.
Actually, you said that it was possible for this energy to be the Christian God,
No I didn't, I don't believe in Gods, Christian or otherwise. Here's a direct quote from my first post...
So energy sort of takes on the role of "God" in this scenario.
"Sort of" "takes on the role of" "'God'". I never said it WAS God, I said it does some of the things God is given credit for. In this case, creating the universe as we know it after the BB.
To use the supernatural as an explanation for something even though you don't believe in it doesn't make sense.
Like I said, I use it because you do. What you call "supernatural" I call "outside of space and time", which presumably has no rules of nature so then you could sort of call it supernatural. I certainly don't believe that supernatural exists within the know universe.
So how do you explain energy being supernatural if you don't believe in the supernatural?
Replace supernatural with 'outside space in time and probably not acting according to any laws (because they don't exist)'.
That doesn't mean it existed beforehand, just that there was energy at the start of the big bang and after
Singularity. AGAIN.
Space-time would have to exist at the start of the big bang because if it was eternal at expansion, then we would never get to the next moment
What do you mean?
It would have to be intelligent to be able to have the constants that we have.
Why?
It would also need to be personal to allow for human life since He values our human life
Then why did it take 13 billion years for humans to emerge? Did God get REALLY distracted?
Of course it has the ability, that's exactly what they have done. No intelligence obvious or necessary.
Except that having the ability assumes intelligence. Here's why. Let's say it did have the ability to create the universe. It would need to know exactly what the end result is supposed to be. It would also have to be able to fine tune it for human life. This is because in our universe, the slightest degree of change in the constants would make human life, or any life for that matter, impossible. Thats where intelligence comes in. Simply knowing isn't enough. Knowing exactly how its supposed to be requires a great deal of intelligence that energy, the physical constants, and the other stuff simply don't have. Here's a website that talks about it.
There are alternative ideas out there like String Theory's brains or the notion that time flows backwards through black holes to the initial singularity or that when nothing else is left all current singularities will eventually be pulled together to form the initial singularity.
Even with these explanations, there would have to be an uncreated creator. Thats because these explanations are used to find a way around a creator God
None of the can be proven yet, but the have an intrinsic element of eventual verifiability, which God does not. I find them therefore far more trustworthy. All you are doing is falling into the "God of the Gaps" fallacy.
You're assuming science will be able to explain something that exists outside of nature. Once you start doing that, its not longer science. Science only talks about the natural. It can't explain something that existed or came about because of something outside of the universe and won't ever be able to. So this so called "God of the Gaps" isn't really a fallacy. Its a legitimate explanation that a lot of scientists are ignoring altogether so that they don't have to answer to someone outside of themselves.
Energy always existed, like you would say of God.
This assumes that energy is self existent. Unless when you're talking about always existing, you're referring to the start of the big bang (which I know you're not) which would then mean that it had a beginning. However, being self existent would mean that it would have to exist independently of the universe and remain independent of the universe.
And yeah, energy combined with all the other factors DOES have the ability to create EVERYTHING in the universe.
Just because something like energy was used to create something, that doesn't mean that energy itself can actually create something. If I'm using a hammer to nail pieces of wood together to build a home, saying the hammer created the home would be ridiculous. The same thing applies here. Energy may have been a means to an end, but that doesn't mean that it has the ability to create.
I never said it WAS God, I said it does some of the things God is given credit for. In this case, creating the universe as we know it after the BB.
I redirect you back to the previous comment and the link I gave earlier in this reply.
What you call "supernatural" I call "outside of space and time", which presumably has no rules of nature so then you could sort of call it supernatural.
Except that supernatural by definition is something that exists outside of space, time, and nature. All you did was replace the word supernatural with its definition.
Replace supernatural with 'outside space in time and probably not acting according to any laws (because they don't exist)'.
Does that include the first law of thermodynamics? I would also point you back to my comment, directly before this one on the definition of supernatural
What do you mean?
If the first moment is all there was, then the next moment will never be
It would need to know exactly what the end result is supposed to be.
Not at all. A human baby is extremely complex, but no intelligence is needed to organize a fertilized egg into a viable fetus. All the chemicals simply follow the laws of physics. A mountain doesn't need to have intelligence to turn a bunch of disordered carbon into diamonds. A cloud does not choose whether or not to be a rain cloud, it depends on how much moisture it absorbs, and other factors. That's how nature works. Everything follows the rules. Including energy.
This is because in our universe, the slightest degree of change in the constants would make human life, or any life for that matter, impossible.
1. There is no solid evidence that the universe could have formed differently. I mean, its conceivable, but conceivable doesn't equal possible.
2. This often assumes that the constants can be independently altered, but they are all connected and balance each other out. Some physicists believe this mean they couldn't be changed.
3. There is also multiverse theory. There might be millions of universes that couldn't support life, but if there is even just one that can, that's where we live. We won the lottery.
Even with these explanations, there would have to be an uncreated creator.
String theory needs branes, the other two only require energy. Which, as I've said, I believe to be the uncreated creator.
Its a legitimate explanation that a lot of scientists are ignoring altogether so that they don't have to answer to someone outside of themselves.
That is a very biased and short sighted explanation. People don't fail to believe in God because they don't want to answer to somebody outside of ourselves. We do it because we aren't convinced. We still answer to our parents, our spouses, our children, our bosses, the law, the government as well as our biologically derived morals. And scientists don't use the supernatural in their calculations because...you can't calculate them. You can't measure them or control them or manipulate them. You can't do science on them, so why should they be allowed by the scientific method.
However, being self existent would mean that it would have to exist independently of the universe and remain independent of the universe.
It would be independent before the universe. Obviously. But there is no reason it would have to be after the universe was born.
The same thing applies here. Energy may have been a means to an end, but that doesn't mean that it has the ability to create.
Combined with the forces and the constants it does. Just read about the life span of a star.
Does that include the first law of thermodynamics?
We covered this already. The reason the other laws break down is they require space-time, or forces, or constants. First Law of Thermo does not. Energy not being able to be created or destroyed is intrinsic to energy itself.
If the first moment is all there was, then the next moment will never be
Yeah, space-time existed at the beginning of BB. But not before, not in singularity.
Is God not capable of letting science run its course?
Considering how long it took, considering how humans can only survive in WAAAAY less than 1% of the known universe, considering how fragile we are, it makes much more sense scientifically that we were an incidental side effect of the laws of the universe, not a favored race.
A human baby is extremely complex, but no intelligence is needed to organize a fertilized egg into a viable fetus.
Except how would the entire process of fertilization and growth of the baby into a newborn occur if there wasn't some intelligence that existed outside of the human race that designed it like that?
There is no solid evidence that the universe could have formed differently. I mean, its conceivable, but conceivable doesn't equal possible.
What would you say is the difference between conceivable and possible?
There is also multiverse theory. There might be millions of universes that couldn't support life, but if there is even just one that can, that's where we live. We won the lottery.
So you said earlier that you don't believe in anything outside of our universe, yet you use the multiverse theory as possible evidence. You have to pick one or the other. You can't have both. Also, saying we won some lottery is ridiculous. With the constants the way they are, as I said earlier, even the most insignificant deviation would render life impossible. There is no way the constants got that specific by mere chance
String theory needs branes, the other two only require energy. Which, as I've said, I believe to be the uncreated creator.
I go back to what I said earlier, you don't believe in something existing outside of our universe yet you believe in the branes of string theory and energy being an uncreated creator. Even if you're only using the term supernatural because I am, it still contradicts what you believe. Even the term 'uncreated creator' implies the 6 qualities that I told you about earlier. It also implies that it exists outside of our universe and continues to do so. Like I said earlier, you need to pick a side.
That is a very biased and short sighted explanation. People don't fail to believe in God because they don't want to answer to somebody outside of ourselves. We do it because we aren't convinced.
Isn't that a very biased and short sighted explanation?
biologically derived morals
You are still talking about the big bang right?
And scientists don't use the supernatural in their calculations because...you can't calculate them. You can't measure them or control them or manipulate them. You can't do science on them, so why should they be allowed by the scientific method.
And yet, you've been giving energy, forces, and the constants supernatural qualities. Pick a side.
It would be independent before the universe. Obviously. But there is no reason it would have to be after the universe was born.
First, you would have to give me legit scientific evidence that energy existed before the big bang. How does something lose its infinite nature by creating something like the universe?
Combined with the forces and the constants it does. Just read about the life span of a star.
Even a star uses energy as a means to an end. All the forces and constants exist outside of the star. Also, the star can't create itself under its own power. All the forces and constants do is let a star form under certain conditions and over a certain amount of time that the star has no control over.
The reason the other laws break down is they require space-time, or forces, or constants. First Law of Thermo does not.
You also said the I should start replacing the word 'supernatural' with the phrase 'outside space in time and probably not acting according to any laws (because they don't exist)' This includes the first law of thermodynamics. Again, you can't have it both ways. Learn to pick a side.
Considering how long it took, considering how humans can only survive in WAAAAY less than 1% of the known universe, considering how fragile we are, it makes much more sense scientifically that we were an incidental side effect of the laws of the universe, not a favored race.
Except that the verifiable science that you hold so strongly too says that it took that long for things like the earth to be created. In a universe where life shouldn't be possible, discovered through verifiable science, we find life.
Except how would the entire process of fertilization and growth of the baby into a newborn occur if there wasn't some intelligence that existed outside of the human race that designed it like that?
Billions of years of evolution.
What would you say is the difference between conceivable and possible?
The human mind can conceive of just about anything. But not all of those things are possible.
So you said earlier that you don't believe in anything outside of our universe, yet you use the multiverse theory as possible evidence.
Things can be outside of the universe if they can be supported logically. God? No, its a stop-gap, a human concept invented thousands of years ago.
With the constants the way they are, as I said earlier, even the most insignificant deviation would render life impossible.
So either the way they are is the only way they could be, or we won the lottery. I believe as do some physicists that there is no other way the universe could be. We certainly can't prove there is.
Isn't that a very biased and short sighted explanation?
Well it comes from personal experience. Most atheists I know were raised to be Christian, but grew up and realized the Christianity never made any sense to them. Personally, I never believed, not even as a kid. I don't think I've ever heard of an atheist who became atheist because he hates God, or doesn't want to follow his rules. Those would imply he believes in God, so um nope....not an atheist.
You are still talking about the big bang right?
Talking about things atheists answer to even though there is no God. Please keep up.
And yet, you've been giving energy, forces, and the constants supernatural qualities. Pick a side.
Just energy. And only when in singularity. I thought I made this clear a while ago: I do believe, generally in the possibility of the supernatural. I DO BOT BELIEVE, however, that the supernatural can exist within the natural universe. This is why I have repeatedly said that energy would only be supernatural before BB and not after. Clear?
Even the term 'uncreated creator' implies the 6 qualities that I told you about earlier.
Only if you are a theist. I have explained from the very first post that energy could serve as a fill-in for God. And I've also said repeatedly that at least 2 of those categories are unnecessary. You insist they are because you can't clear your thoughts enough to see all this without God.
First, you would have to give me legit scientific evidence that energy existed before the big bang.
That would be kind of difficult to do since there's currently no known "legit scientific" way to peer back before the BB. But basically everyone agrees it had to be there at the start of the Big Bang and was gone the instant space-time came about. Since the singularity is exactly what would happen to all of the energy without space time, and since, as you would say, "it can't create itself", it stands to reason that it was always there.
How does something lose its infinite nature by creating something like the universe?
Space-time is not infinite if it had a beginning. So existing outside of space-time is the only way it would have of being either infinite or eternal.
Even a star uses energy as a means to an end.
Well yeah. At the very beginning, energy is all a star is. Soon though, heavier elements are formed, from the original energy. Eventually the star goes nova and spews elements everywhere. My whole point is that energy can create, and since a star can create all the elements we know, that is the best example. Stars are awesome.
All the forces and constants do is let a star form under certain conditions and over a certain amount of time that the star has no control over.
You don't get it do you? I'm not saying the star can control it. Or that energy can. I'M saying NOTHING is controlling it. Its all happening just how it has to in our universe. EVERYTHING else we have ever observed closely has proven to have a naturalistic cause, why would the birth of the universe or of a star be different. Things do exactly what they have to do under whatever conditions they experience. They could do no more and no less.
Except that the verifiable science that you hold so strongly too says that it took that long for things like the earth to be created.
Yeah and then another 4 billion years for life to pop up and evolve into humans. Like I said that's a long friggin' time for an all powerful deity to wait for its favorite creation.
In a universe where life shouldn't be possible, discovered through verifiable science, we find life.
Its not that life shouldn't be possible, it should be very rare. I don't know about you, but I never met an alien.
How does billions of years of evolution create something as complex as human life when evolution only acts on whats already there and doesn't create something new?
The human mind can conceive of just about anything. But not all of those things are possible.
How does that explain the difference between conceivable and possible?
Things can be outside of the universe if they can be supported logically.
Define logically. Logic exists outside of yourself. Because of that, it had to come from something outside of yourself. It couldn't have come from energy as it doesn't have the intelligence necessary to come up with something like logic. There has to be a standard for what is considered logical and there is no way that humans could come up with the standard on their own.
God? No, its a stop-gap, a human concept invented thousands of years ago.
So based off of what you're saying, God can both exist and not exist at the same time? You said that things can exist outside of the universe if it can be supported logically. I've given logical support for why God would exist, yet you've told me it was wrong. You haven't given me any logical evidence as to why energy would exist outside of the universe yet you believe that it did at one point then somehow became a natural force because you "believe" that nothing supernatural could exist in our universe.
So either the way they are is the only way they could be, or we won the lottery.
So its easier for you to believe in a multiverse that has no verifiability to it that just somehow "created" a universe like ours by mere chance than to believe in an intelligent creator?
I believe as do some physicists that there is no other way the universe could be. We certainly can't prove there is.
So if there's no other way the universe could be, then what does that say about your multiverse theory?
Well it comes from personal experience. Most atheists I know were raised to be Christian, but grew up and realized the Christianity never made any sense to them.
So they don't have intellectual reasons for believing in God? I didn't have any either when I was growing up so this isn't a jab at them
Those would imply he believes in God, so um nope....not an atheist.
Except that you've said before that you don't believe in God, which makes you an atheist.
Only if you are a theist.
Theist or not, calling something an 'uncreated creator' still assumes those qualities are present regardless of whether or not you think God exists
And I've also said repeatedly that at least 2 of those categories are unnecessary.
If intelligence is really unnecessary, how could the universe be the way it is? Intelligence by definition is the ability to acquire and apply knowledge and skill. So basically, there is no way that energy could have done what you say its done as energy in itself is incapable of acquiring and applying skills and knowledge. It may have been used, but like I said earlier, it would just be a means to an end. It would also have to be personal since there is no evidence of a universe outside of ours, much less one with fine tuning. Just look back at those 2 youtube videos I gave.
That would be kind of difficult to do since there's currently no known "legit scientific" way to peer back before the BB. But basically everyone agrees it had to be there at the start of the Big Bang and was gone the instant space-time came about.
So you're saying that all it takes is popular consensus for an idea to be viewed as right? No evidence or testing required? Without evidence to prove your point, all you have is popular consensus which can't be trusted, scientifically or otherwise.
Space-time is not infinite if it had a beginning. So existing outside of space-time is the only way it would have of being either infinite or eternal.
Except you're leaving out energy. The question involves that as well. How does something lose its infinite nature at the creation of the universe?
My whole point is that energy can create, and since a star can create all the elements we know, that is the best example.
This is still an example of how energy is used as a means to create, not that energy possesses the ability to create. Its still a means to an end.
I'M saying NOTHING is controlling it. Its all happening just how it has to in our universe.
"Just how it has to" was set up by an intelligence outside of this universe. The universe can't create itself knowing how its supposed to be created. There had to at least be some level of control
EVERYTHING else we have ever observed closely has proven to have a naturalistic cause, why would the birth of the universe or of a star be different. Things do exactly what they have to do under whatever conditions they experience.
Except the conditions couldn't have created themselves. They had to have come from an outside source. The fact that there is no verifiable evidence for other universes, much less other universes that support life, says that there had to have been something outside of our universe that put those conditions in place.
Yeah and then another 4 billion years for life to pop up and evolve into humans. Like I said that's a long friggin' time for an all powerful deity to wait for its favorite creation.
Except you're also leaving out that God also knows the end from the beginning meaning that He wouldn't need to wait as, in His eyes, He already created us.
Its not that life shouldn't be possible, it should be very rare. I don't know about you, but I never met an alien.
Thats assuming that life is capable of just appearing.
How does billions of years of evolution create something as complex as human life when evolution only acts on whats already there and doesn't create something new?
Abiogenesis.
How does that explain the difference between conceivable and possible?
Conceivable- you can think it, possible- you can do it.
Where do you crazy people learn this stuff? No, it does not.
There has to be a standard for what is considered logical and there is no way that humans could come up with the standard on their own.
Why not?
So based off of what you're saying, God can both exist and not exist at the same time? Ummm, no.
So its easier for you to believe in a multiverse that has no verifiability to it that just somehow "created" a universe like ours by mere chance than to believe in an intelligent creator?
A little. Honestly it has just about as much evidence as God. We can totally remove it from the conversation. I don't need it.
So they don't have intellectual reasons for believing in God?
Some. Some did have intellectual reasons for God but discovered flaws in it. Maybe other reasons. You'd have to ask them, I can't speak for anyone but myself.
Except that you've said before that you don't believe in God, which makes you an atheist.
Right. I don't hate God or want to avoid his rules. I just don't believe in him.
Theist or not, calling something an 'uncreated creator' still assumes those qualities are present regardless of whether or not you think God exists
Nope. But we've covered this a thousand times, so moving on...
If intelligence is really unnecessary, how could the universe be the way it is?
Energy: the stuff everything is made of. Space-Time: A space for energy to be. Fundamental forces: Place limits on energy and help to manipulate it in specified ways. Other constants: further manipulation energy and/or everything it creates.
So you're saying that all it takes is popular consensus for an idea to be viewed as right?
Did you even read the link you sent me a while ago?
Except you're leaving out energy.
No, I was referring to anything that could be outside the universe and later within. Energy being pretty much the one thing that would. (and maybe fundamental forces, possibly space-time)
How does something lose its infinite nature at the creation of the universe?
Because the universe is finite.
This is still an example of how energy is used as a means to create, not that energy possesses the ability to create.
Oh your God! Are you intentionally making me repeat myself or do you not have a memory?
Energy, mixed with the forces and the constants all worked together to create stars.
"Just how it has to" was set up by an intelligence outside of this universe.
Nothing in nature had to be. This all complicated with a lot of unknowns. But that is no reason to just give up and say "I don't get it! God!" Science would never get anywhere if that's how it operated.
Except the conditions couldn't have created themselves.
The conditions are the fundamental forces and the constants. It appears that the forces may have been in singularity with energy. The constants? They aren't even things. The just do what they do. No need to be created.
Thats assuming that life is capable of just appearing.
You do realize that inanimate and inorganic objects are incapable of the kinds of results that you want right?
Conceivable- you can think it, possible- you can do it.
Both of the definitions are interchangeable.
Didn't your parents by you a dictionary? Sigh...
What? I can't ask you you're definition of a word? You didn't even give me your definition. You gave me a wikipedia article that someone else wrote. So you basically gave me someone else's definition
Where do you crazy people learn this stuff? No, it does not.
Why is it so hard for you to believe that something like that can exist outside of yourself? People can be logical, but they can't be logic. Logic wouldn't exist if there wasn't some kind of ultimate standard for what was considered logical which itself would have to exist outside of us
Why not?
Because if humans came up with their own standard, there would basically be anarchy as everyone would have their own definition of what they thought was logical and try to impose it on others.
A little. Honestly it has just about as much evidence as God. We can totally remove it from the conversation. I don't need it.
You're fine. I am a little curious though. Why is it easier for you to believe in something like multiverse that created our universe by chance than it is for you to believe in an intelligent designer?
Energy: the stuff everything is made of. Space-Time: A space for energy to be. Fundamental forces: Place limits on energy and help to manipulate it in specified ways. Other constants: further manipulation energy and/or everything it creates.
That would require fine tuning, which anyone of those is incapable of creating whether it be under their own power or together. Either way, they are still incapable of doing anything that something outside of them allows them to
Because the universe is finite.
How does the universe being finite by nature prove that something was infinite at one point and finite another? Just to stick with the energy example, the universe is a closed system so to keep entropy/order at a certain level, energy would have to be put in. What this means is that the same amount of energy that existed outside the universe is the same amount of energy that now exists inside the universe. Or actually, there would have to be significantly more energy before as there would have to be substantially more energy to create the universe. The other option would be that energy would be infinite and outside the universe and continue to be so which has been my point all along
Oh your God! Are you intentionally making me repeat myself or do you not have a memory?
The only reason you're getting so frustrated is that you won't listen. I've told you before that for energy to do what you say it can do, it would REQUIRE intelligence which, as I've said before, is the ability to acquire and apply knowledge and skills. You seem to think that energy is capable of creating things which would require intelligence. It's almost like you're trying to personify energy into something capable of creating. At this point, all you're doing is blatantly disregarding the facts.
Nothing in nature had to be. This all complicated with a lot of unknowns. But that is no reason to just give up and say "I don't get it! God!" Science would never get anywhere if that's how it operated.
Except that it requires more faith to believe everything had a naturalistic cause than to believe it had a supernatural cause. You have a strictly natural view of how the universe was created simply because the natural world is scientifically verifiable. The main problem with only viewing everything through a scientifically verifiable lens completely removes the necessity for God which is the issue.
The conditions are the fundamental forces and the constants.
If they themselves are the conditions, that means something not only had to exist outside of them, that entity has to continue to exist outside of them, and have the knowledge, skill, and ability to make them. These conditions had to be set by something and that something could not have been the conditions themselves. There's no way around this whatsoever.
The constants? They aren't even things. The just do what they do. No need to be created.
Why is them being created an issue? As I've said earlier, the conditions need something outside of it to set conditions. Otherwise there just wouldn't be any conditions at all
You do realize that inanimate and inorganic objects are incapable of the kinds of results that you want right?
Organic molecules can form naturally in a wide variety of environments, and are found throughout the universe. You can even order a kit and make your own in your garage.
You gave me a wikipedia article that someone else wrote.
I wanted to make sure we were both talking about the same thing.
Why is it so hard for you to believe that something like that can exist outside of yourself?
Because logic doesn't really exist in a real sense. It is a methodology designed to ensure that our thinking is as accurate as possible.
Logic wouldn't exist if there wasn't some kind of ultimate standard for what was considered logical which itself would have to exist outside of us
No, we figured it out over the course of thousands of years with many smart and observant people contributing to its development.
Because if humans came up with their own standard, there would basically be anarchy as everyone would have their own definition of what they thought was logical and try to impose it on others.
Logic can be discussed and worked out mathematically. Its hard to argue with math.
Why is it easier for you to believe in something like multiverse that created our universe by chance than it is for you to believe in an intelligent designer?
It would kind of fit a pattern. Only a teeny tiny amount of energy becomes matter. Only a teeny tiny amount matter fills space. Only a teeny tiny amount of planets could even potentially sustain life. So, maybe only a teeny tiny amount of infinite universes could sustain life. Its a stretch, but not as stretchy of a stretch as God.
That would require fine tuning, which anyone of those is incapable of creating whether it be under their own power or together.
Not true, they acquire this so-called "fine tuning" in relationship to each other. As I said before, they are all connected to multiple other factors, and balance each other out. Even if you could move one of them independently, it is possible they could balance back out. That's just how nature works, we see it in our environment on Earth all the time.
How does the universe being finite by nature prove that something was infinite at one point and finite another?
Another thing I've said before. Nothing can be infinite in a finite universe. But it is space and time that makes the universe finite. Without space and time (or with them dormant) anything would be infinite.
What this means is that the same amount of energy that existed outside the universe is the same amount of energy that now exists inside the universe.
Of course, I don't see the problem here.
Or actually, there would have to be significantly more energy before as there would have to be substantially more energy to create the universe.
Why? All the big bang was was the expansion of all the energy that was in singularity.
The only reason you're getting so frustrated is that you won't listen.
No, its because you aren't listening. I say "everything is energy", you say "energy can't create things by itself", I say "add space-time, forces and constants" then we talk about something else and then you come back with "energy can't create things by itself", like the earlier conversation never happened. Now this is a long conversation about numerous topics, so I can totally cut you some slack. But you do this A LOT and its getting old.
Except that it requires more faith to believe everything had a naturalistic cause than to believe it had a supernatural cause.
That is false by definition.
You have a strictly natural view of how the universe was created simply because the natural world is scientifically verifiable.
And nothing "supernatural" has survived scrutiny.
The main problem with only viewing everything through a scientifically verifiable lens completely removes the necessity for God which is the issue.
The main problem with viewing everything through a religious lens is that it ignores 2,000 years of progress and clings to ancient bronze-age superstitions intended to explain things in an ignorant age.
There's no way around this whatsoever.
Not for you, but your imagination is not the limit of human understanding.
Why is them being created an issue?
Because if they weren't created, there is no creator. Duh.
I refer you back to the first line of this reply
I refer you back to my first response in this reply.
true science negates the big bang theory. There are many observable facts which show the big bang and billions of years hypothesis to be impossible. Things that do not fit the big bang theory but are undeniable reality are generally ignored are nd avoided by evolutionary scientists who are desperate to believe God cannot rule over them, and many of them look to demonic "aliens" which teach we can overrule God. Only while we are given tine outside of Hell can we exist outside of Hell, only by being saved can we be kept in eternal life and not kept in eternal damnation as enemies of God
1. where is your evidence that "true science negates the big bang theory"? What facts are you referring to hen you say,"There are many observable facts which show the big bang and billions of years hypothesis to be impossible."?
2. While I do agree that scientists who haven't been are just trying to avoid using God to help describe something, how does that mean that science itself can't be trusted? That's probably not what you were trying to say, but that's how it came across to me.
3. It seems like, and I could be completely wrong about this, but it seems like you don't think of science in general as anything trustworthy. If that is the case, how did you come to that conclusion?
Belief in evolution or the big bang is not science. Science is observation of nature ..I lover science and nature and my scholastic aptitude in those things is in the high nineties. Of nation,ally compared testing. Many highly respected and accomplished scientists reject evolution and the big bang hypothesis. You can easily find observable and indisputable facts which ate not posbible if the world as the. BIg Bang hypothesis actually was a tbeory. You can find all of these things easily on the net if you look for them, but II'm sure you ate too chicken slivered to do it and doubt you could bear to consider the facts so just.go on in your lazy brainwashed ignorance, I don't get paid to do research for you. Stupid spell check on this cheap pad im. Using...spare me any whining about spelling and punctuation, it's clear enough what I'm saying
Belief in evolution or the big bang is not science. Science is observation of nature
Science is the intellectual and practical activity encompassing the systematic study of the structure and behavior of the physical and natural world through observation and experiment.
So? The universe is expanding. We can observe that. Belief in the big band cannot be observed. If you think believing the red shift proves God is not there and you have the right to exist outside of Hell, I think you are a fool....in agreement with Psalm 14:1
Fact: You are you
Fact: You are dying
Fact: Dying people will die if they are not saved
Fact: If you are not saved from dying, you are lost to dying
Fact: You cannot save yourself
Fact: Nobody else who is dying can save themselves or you
Fact: Only God can save you
Fact: You have no hope if God does not save you.
Fact: If you insist you cannot be saved, God loves you and will give you what you really want, to not be saved.
All of these things are observable facts. Science of philosophy.
If you insist you can only know you will continue to exist in death as you are in death now after your time is finalized and there is no more countdown of time in your existence, you won't want to find out you are wrong. It's better to admit you are wrong before it's too late and look to God to be saved......and receive the Savior so He can save you.
Do you really need to use all those words to define science exactly the same as I defined it? It only took me four words to define science, why did it take you 26 words to say exactly the same thing I said in four words? Brevity is the soul of wit, which is why ungodly philosophers go on and on and on in never ending rabbit trails....if they stated their beliefs briefly, they would simply have to admit that the don't know what they are talking about because they believe they cannot know.
Because you seem to have been saying that if something isn't directly observable then it isn't science, correct me if you were not suggesting this. Natural processes are not necessarily directly observable.
I am fascinated and enthralled with true science which is the study of nature,of all of creation as it is the handiwork of God.and ex eedingly wonderful. You do not have to believe in evolution or the big bang. To study nature on par with Einstein or Hawkins or anybody else. Scientists who always twist their conclusions.of observable. Facts are amazing in their mental and. Philosophical gymnastics when the facts point to the impossibly of reality consisting, as we experience. It without God's. Love. Holding. It together.. I study and research both sides as a hobby, it comes easy for me and little of it is over my head. You would have to. Pay me to do for you what easily you can do yourself
I say nothing existed before the big bang. And when I say nothing, I mean literal nothingness. The universe could not have existed eternally because if the universe was eternal, then there is no way we could have gotten to this moment right now. Science, starting with the big bang theory, is continuing to prove that the universe had a beginning. So if it had a beginning, then it means that there had to be something that made the universe begin. That means that the beginner of the universe (if that makes sense) had to be spaceless, timeless, and immaterial. It would also have to be intelligent, personal, and powerful to be able to create the kind of universe that was created with the physical constants being what they are. It is my own personal opinion that this entity is the God of the bible. Specifically the Christian bible. I do believe that the big bang is how He started the universe and then guided the universe to where it is now.
You are compromising. God created the ravens and the rartb by His own will. Then by the sound of his voice create light. Light coming,g from sound is consistent in observable science, where the first sound came from is not observable. Many believe in the big bang hypothesis, but then sound and light would have to emerge together. Sound precedes light. God created order, not an explosion. If you copromise to accommodate big bang or evolutionary beliefs, you are denying the Bible and discrediting God by discrediting his word
If you find out for sure that the. Big. Bang. Is an impossibility and must be rejected do to indisputable scientific observation, would it ruin your faith? I have posted several of the many scientific facts which contradict Big bang. Belief. You won't find these facts discussed by evolutionists. They are ignored by atheists in general as they.were ignored when I posted them because the facts are undeniable and point to the entire universe being created by an intelligent and supernatural designer.....obviously. He is God.
Except that science and Christianity are not incompatible. For example, I used to think that evolution didn't exist because God created everything. Once I actually started learning about evolution, I realized that my definition of evolution was one species becoming another (macroevolution) which there isn't evidence for. However, species do have small changes over time (microevolution) and that does exist no matter how you slice it. Genesis 1:3 supports the big bang theory as it talks about light just appearing which could be seen almost like an explosion. Just because scientists have found a way to explain something that the bible doesn't go into a whole lot of detail over that doesn't mean that God had no part in it. So to answer your original question, no it wouldn't. However, since you haven't shown another possibility, I'm left with the big bang theory
Belief in the Big Bang is not science. God created the heavens and the earth in the beginning. The beginning was the beginning, it was not a time frame of billions of years. If you support Big Bang hypothesis, you are ignoring God's Word and the God of the Bible is not as powerful as He claims to be...you are in essence saying God is a liar.
Neither is belief in God, but we still believe in Him
God created the heavens and the earth in the beginning.
You're the only one here that thinks that I think that statement is a load of crap.
The beginning was the beginning, it was not a time frame of billions of years.
So if the first half is true, how does that negate the second half? If the beginning is the beginning, then how would that beginning starting billions of years ago somehow be bad or wrong? Scripture doesn't give a clear age of the earth. It only says that God created it and everything in it
If you support Big Bang hypothesis, you are ignoring God's Word and the God of the Bible is not as powerful as He claims to be...you are in essence saying God is a liar.
I'm just saying its possible that God started the universe as a big bang and were only able to comprehend it as such. I never said it was a concrete thing. Give me proof outside the bible that the big bang never happened and I'll believe you
Probably the big fuel squirt met the big lit match in the backyard of some hick named Cletus. In about a billion more years watch out for enormous smores descending to toast against our suns.
And of course the religious on this site worship Cletus and warn the rest of us if we'll be on the melted Hershey highway if we don't praise the giant Cletus.
The ignition that supposedly started the big bang is devoid of science. There are no serious attempts to explain it because no explanation is possible, you are just supposed to believe it happened. It did not happen because it's impossible.
Scientists and computer geniuses cannot model the big bang theory because the computer would simply say "cannot compute". It's an impossibility, there was no big bang.
If the Big Bang happened, then galaxies should all be moving away from each other, all moving toward each other, or all not moving at all. Two galaxies colliding proves the Big Bang did not happen. Astrophysicists who cling to belief in the big band, in hope that God cannot overrule them, ignore this fact.
There is no proof whatsoever of a "Big Bang" happening sometime in the past.
1. Red shift does not necessarily mean that the universe is expanding. Relativistic Doppler effect contains a lateral component, meaning that red shift effects would also be registered for stars in a rotating universe.
2. The equations of General Relativity are non-linear. Which means, you cannot just obtain a solution, and then add some other "minor" solutions to it, without braking the equations themselves. And that is exactly what happens, when "scientists" take the Friedman metric, and begin "adding" matter to it.
One of the main reasons they have to resort to this, is the fact that there currently is no known exact solution to Hilbert - Einstein's equations, even for a two-body problem, more so for anything more complex than that.
i think that the universe does end somewhere from where we see it but there is still something beyond it. taking the example of a circle some may say it has no beginning or and end however i see it as there is a beginning and an end its just that we cant see them because they are so close together to explain this i would say draw two semi circles on a piece of paper put them together if you do it perfectly it should make a circle and you can see the semi circle now try just drawing a circle on a piece of paper and stop just a bit before you join the end and the beginning you can see the beginning and the end. another good example can be imagine you are in a ball with no light you can see only darkness as far as you can see this is what the universe is however it has a few stars, planets and black holes in it if you reach the end of the universe you will see nothing but a wall of darkness. however there is another possibility to the universe like in some games it is only a few pixels x few pixels but when you enter the next room the room may look different but it stills is the same space so it is sort of like a loop or a circle as soon as you reach the end you start back at the beginning so there is no end to how far you go which means if you fly a spaceship straight towards the end of the universe it will eventually end up directly behind you this means the universe is infinite
I am separating my religious and scientific sides.
Scientific: There are literally infinite possibilities scientifically, one is the multiverse theory in which like bubbles universes are "blown" into existence.
Religious: There was nothing before the big bang. I guess that the Big Bang is the evidence God left behind for us to find about the creation of the universe, and if god didn't want us to find this out, he would have erased the evidence because God is omnipotent.
I believe we must look at the universe and everything in it, not just as this item floating around in space. Its not in a box, but it IS the box. But its always full with itself.
whether it was the size of an atom or infinite, its still the box and everything. If the box expands but is still full, doesn't make it any less of a box. its a big box now.
Think of a room with no doors or windows, its always full. No way out cause that full room is the only thing that exists, room is a closet, becoming more and more dense as it creates new things over and over and over. it becomes too dense but it cant collapse cause there is nothing to collapse into, so it explodes and expands rapidly to a constant rate till it creates enough pieces of matter at the same rate as it expands. Thus a balance is created.
It always existed and its possible it became so dense to the point of exploding. Like Planets, they become sooo dense they create black holes.........
wait, i thought of something, what if our universe is just another universes black hole........what if we are a universe inside a black hole..... No one has been to the center of our universe, maybe there's a massive black hole there, or an anti black hole......pushing everything instead of pulling (because we are expanding outward from that center point) I literally just thought of this. please can I have feedback??
God may have used the Big Bang as a way to bring the Universe into Existence. Personally I believe He did, and He also uses Evolution to advance our species to where we are today. In this way, Science and Religion need not be at odds.
As far as before the Big Bang? I have now idea. I am thinking that there may have just have been God, or a type of Universe in the Spiritual and not physical realm. And as a set of parents live in a paradise but have a void in their lives from no children, so did God feel a need to Create us.
i believe that the big bang was a bang that created time, as it got further back, the more time was created and that time had already been planned but it was so diverse that it made options and that for time to travel and options for us to take in our life although it seems as though we have control in our own life. I believe this may link to deja vu as you feel like you have already seen something i believe that time messed up and got mixed up with atoms causing this phenomenon. It also created planets and galaxies and in sci-fi there is something called parallel universes and i believe that there is a way to get there and we seem them ourselves but when we sleep, our dreams. Everything that i said then i believe in if it happened, but i don't think it ever did as i believe we don't exist or if we do then i am the center of the universe as i only see my perspective to everything, that may sound selfish but you only know your won thoughts and the universe is massive and somehow it all links to your thoughts.
We can never know. The big bang is essentially the source of "everything." This includes matter, time, space, energy, and so on. However, science is limited to studying "everything." Thus, anything before "everything," cannot be studied, and will have no traceable path.
Assume the theory that a "god" created the universe.
Question: What was "GOD" doing before he "created" the universe, where did "it" come from and where did "it" live?? "GOD" had to create every mineral, every gas, every chemical ... after he created every electron, proton, etc. Phew! That IS hard to believe ... even harder to believe than creating the universe!
By definition the suggestion to create multiple universes is ridiculous as the universe in a nutshell is defined as "all existing matter and space considered as a whole". I.e. it is everything that exists and could exist and contains all things we could perceive or not perceive. Something cannot exist outside of the universe. Onto the point in question, what existed before the big bang? Using my definition of universe theoretically it had to exist in some form to allow a big bang to be possible. The big bang postulates that everything at one time existed in a singularity, matter, energy etc. Nothing existed outside of that singularity (supposedly). So one could argue that this singularity was infact the universe. My problem arises firstly what actually caused seemingly dormant matter to suddenly explode and my second problem is what was the singularity actually expanding into? When i blow up a balloon it is possible because it expands into the space around us. However take that same balloon and try to imagine blowing it up outside of the proposed singularity, the notion is ridiculous. So if the previous statement is ridiculous it follows that for everything to be expanding (the singularity which was the proposed universal contents) surely there would have to have existed space in which the matter, time and space could expand into. A more appropriate view would be that actually the universe has always existed and will continue to do so but the state of the universe changes. Modern science puts emphasis on life having a start point (infinite regression). In a similar way to religion when causes causes cant be established; following the religious path leads to GOD, whilst the scientific path leads to the big bang.
Well, the question to which no one has the answer certainly stimulates the thought process. The unfortunate feature of the question is that those who profess, to have worked out the answer, i.e, the astrophysicists, duck out of sight when the subject comes up. As far as I'm concerned the jury is still out considering the ever unfurling evidence.
i would love to be given a chance to present what i think to be a compelling argument ...im not very gifted and my spelling and grammar is very poor so i would understand you dismissing me on this bases....
The fact that you ignore the answer only proves you do not have the answer. You cannot prove the answer is unknoable, you can only prove. That people. Who say they do not know, really do not know.
Since the murderous and petty and capricious, jealous, tyrannical Yeshua exists only in Hebrew Mythology, and said mythos was not written till about 13.7 billion years AFTER the big bang, Yeshua is far far far younger.
The question of questions. I believe that the principle of something from something is invalid, because of the eternal problem of the cause of the latter something. However, I also believe that something from nothing is invalid, because of the eternal problem that nothing is able to create something in the first place.
To sum: origin can neither be something from something, or something from nothing. So then what is one left with..
Your debate is like an endless circle that never lead to the Question being answered. My question to you is "If the big bang created then what or where did the matter come from to cause the big bang(Because in science it clearly state there is no reaction without a opposite or Equal reaction.). Would not the big bang have to be cause. What set it off."
