What is an "Abortion"?
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Your ignorance of the position is remarkable. But then again, you're a rather too religious person to set that correct. 1) Have you ever seen an abortion procedure being done? Though that's irrelevant, no, I haven't. 2) What happens during an abortion procedure? Describe it in as much detail as possible. The to-be child dies, and is probably thrown away. 3) Do you think it is okay to cut up a baby and then vacuum it out of its mothers uterus? That description is too absurd to be true. But, you're probably overcome with emotions. Try again. 4) If the baby is not a human, what is it? A baby is a human. You think that you can confuse people by equivocating and/or begging the question - a common prolife tactic. 5) If life does not begin at conception, when does it begin? When it becomes independent enough to, at least, breathe by itself. Unless you can justify that its life begins earlier than delivery, your random questions won't matter. I'd presume you enjoy eating animals. Have you ever seen them being killed? How sure are you about the conditions in which the animals on your plate have lived? I just want to clarify for the sake of this argument that my stance on abortion is strictly political, not religious. I would have quoted religious text if it was so. JatinNagpa You say my ignorance is remarkable. Ignorance means lack of information. Is it not ignorant to come into a debate about abortion and yet you have not seen the procedure being done? You answered my second question by saying "The to-be child dies, and is probably thrown away". You did not really answer my question to be honest and it is obvious you do not know the answer. Let me answer it for you: First Trimester: The Abortion Pill 1) At the abortion clinic or doctors office, the women takes pills that contain Mifepristone. This drug destabilizes the lining of the uterus. This cuts off blood and nourishment to the baby. 2) The mother then takes Misoprotol. These two drugs together cause severe cramps, contractions and heavy bleeding to force the dead baby out of the uterus. If the mother fails to remove the uterus herself she gets a surgical abortion: vacuum is used ripping the baby apart to extract it. Second Trimester Abortion: Dilation and Extraction (D&E;) 1) The abortionist puts sterilized seaweed inside the vagina that absorbs water and swells the vagina canal. 2) The abortionist administers anesthesia. 3) The seaweed is then removed and the abortionist stretches the vagina wide open 4) The abortionist sucks out amniotic fluid from the womb. 5) Since the babies bone are too strong to be suctioned out, the abortionist uses a clamp to tear the baby out limb by limb from the body along with the heart and lungs. The babies head is too big at this stage to pull it out in full so its skull is to be crushes and taken out piece by piece. 6) Whatever is left of the baby is removed from the uterus. Third Trimester Abortion: Injection and Stillbirth At this point the baby is viable, meaning it can survive outside the womb. Keep in mind at this point babies feel pain. 1) Day 1: The abortionist injects digoxin. This drug causes the baby to go into cardiac arrest. This drug is injected through the woman's abdomen or vagina targeting the babies head, torso or heart. The abortionist then puts seaweed in the vagina days before the abortion. 2) Day 2: The abortionist replaces the seaweed and performs and ultra sound to make sure the baby is dead. If the child is still alive the abortionist injects more digoxin. The women then goes back home so her uterus can dilate. If she goes into labor at any point during the procedure, she is advised to go into labour in the toilet. The abortionist then goes to her home and removes the baby. 3) Day 3: If she can make it to the clinic on the third day she is to deliver her dead baby. If the baby does not come out the abortionist is to perform a D&E;and rips the baby out piece by piece. As for the third question you did not answer it at all. Now that the information above is given can you answer it with a simple yes or no and then why? As for the fourth question, it was just a simple one. I am not trying to confuse anyone. I simply want to know if they think it is human or not since some people who are pro-choice do not believe it is human. As for the fifth question, so a fully formed 9 month old is justifiable to be killed since it has to independently breathe? 1
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As for the fourth question, it was just a simple one. I am not trying to confuse anyone. I simply want to know if they think it is human or not since some people who are pro-choice do not believe it is human. In that case, your calling it a baby is misleading. Call it a pre-baby, a potential human, or just a fetus if you find those 2 terms equally fallacious as I found yours. . Is it not ignorant to come into a debate about abortion and yet you have not seen the procedure being done? When I said that the exact procedure doesn't matter? No, it isn't ignorant. . Now that the information above is given can you answer it with a simple yes or no and then why? A normal delivery isn't done with a magic wand, if that's what you really are suggesting. As for the fifth question, so a fully formed 9 month old is justifiable to be killed since it has to independently breathe? As long as it doesn't get out of the womb, it is parasitic, without rights. I see that you haven't answered either of my questions. 1
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You say in your original statement ..... I am baffled by the amount of people who claim to be Pro-choice and have no idea what the process of an abortion is! Sometimes I think that they believe the doctor removes the baby with a magic wand!....... So how many people have you asked and how many have you convinced to adopt your view on the matter ? What I find bizzare is that you seem to assume people with an opposite view to yours must be wrong because they have not given the matter sufficient thought, which to me is presumptuous and are smacks of arrogance . You have no right to tell a woman what she may or may not do with her body all you have is your opinion ; a fetus has zero rights and it's a woman's choice whether you like it or not . Margaret Sanger created Planned Parenthood to help with another horrific practice eugenics, a sick belief that the human "gene pool" would be improved through selective breeding and sterilization. In Sanger's case improving the gene pool meant keeping African-Americans, morons, those with family background with a history of illnesses and other undesirables from reproducing. She also advocated strict immigration rules to keep the "undesirables' out of the country. During a March 27, 2009 speech accepting the Margaret Sanger Award from Planned Parenthood, Clinton talked about being in awe of the racist eugenicist: Now, I have to tell you that it was a great privilege when I was told that I would receive this award. I admire Margaret Sanger enormously, her courage, her tenacity, her vision. Another of my great friends, Ellen Chesler, is here, who wrote a magnificent biography of Margaret Sanger called Woman of Valor. And when I think about what she did all those years ago in Brooklyn, taking on archetypes, taking on attitudes and accusations flowing from all directions, I am really in awe of her. You Progressives are about eugenics and Hillary admitted it ! People decide to have abortions for many reasons ranging from pregnancies resulting from incest or rape. Sometimes young people, or just people with a strong sex drive will, in the heat of passion make love and the female will become pregnant with an unwanted unborn child. If there exists a legal and professional facility which can terminate the unwanted pregnancy in comparative safety then, at the request of the mother-to be, the abortion should be carried out within the parameters of the law by professional medical staff. Who are you to deride what someone else decides to do with their body, and who are you to advocate that an unwanted child is born into poverty, and as is the case, ''EVERY DAY'', yes, ''EVERY DAY''with 1000s of children worldwide, but especially in Africa, condemned to die a painful and lingering death just to satisfy your desire top bellow your sanctimonious and arrogant drivel from the ''appropriated'' moral highground? I ask you this Mr. Self Righteous, do you know what happens if proper abortions clinics are not available? Do you give a shit what the female who wishes to terminate her pregnancy will have to endure? You thought you were being very graphic with your description of a clinical abortion, well consider this. Many 1000s of females, for probably the same number of reasons, decide every week to have an abortion. When they are desperate they will go to the backstreet abortionists whose procedures are truly horrific and significantly more dangerous than a medically conducted and supervised termination. They usually consist of a narrow tube attached to a hollow bulbous rubber sphere, not dissimilar to a battery acid filler, filled with a witch's brew of antiseptic liquid, carbolic soap, quinine and God knows what else. This solution is then administered into the womb in the hope that it will induce a miscarriage, which it normally does, eventually. The female is then given a towel or old car rug and told to walk the back alleyways until the fetus comes away. This process regularly results in the woman suffering internal bleeding and will have to attend hospital anyway, with medium to long term side effects ranging from being unable to become pregnant ever again and/or severe psychological/depression problems. You, you judgmental and arrogant ''do-gooder'' would impose the aforementioned horrors on females in your self righteous induced arrogance. Could you please answer whether you believe that all abortions are bad and that rape and incest are the exception or are they all okay to do? Because it seems to me that you are using justification that Africans are "Condemned to die a painful and lingering death". So I guess we need to abort anyone born in Africa so they do not experience that, which will intern cause massive genocide but at least they didn't suffer a terrible life. Also, you assume I am a man thinking that a majority of men are the ones who believe abortion is immoral when constant studies have shown that women are 50/50 on the topic of pro-life and pro-choice. Your assumption that I do not car for children is appalling considering. It is also logically fallacious. If I did not care about the child in question wouldn't killing them be a justifiable argument? The real debate is about the Means not the ends. My reference to the 1000s of child deaths every year was used to illustrate the absurdness of your, across the board', all inclusive, sweeping statement. Your amateur and self serving interpretation of ''the constant studies'';- (what studies?, come on, what studies? where, when and by whom were the studies to which you refer carried out?), of what women think about having an abortion is totally irrelevant. Whist non-consensual, or illegal sex does not represent the cause of the majority of pregnancies they do, account for a significant number. If a female in these circumstances, or simply through a moments passion finds herself with an unwanted pregnancy, then she has every right to seek a legal and safe abortion. Do you, in with your ''holier-than-thou'' naive little mind think that women shouldn't become pregnant if they don't wish to bear children? You must be a simple soul if you think all you have to do is tell them not to have unsafe/unprotected sex. Wouldn't that be great? Don't have unprotected sex, phew, that's that problem solved. Now let me see, oh yes, don't take drugs, ahh another serious social problem solved. Don't rob banks, don't beat up and mug old age pensioners. Solving problems is easy when you have the intellect of a potato. Throughout history women have, and continue to have unwanted pregnancies and in many occasions will have an abortion one way or the other. The humane thing to do is to lessen the awful trauma of the experience by providing the best medical care and attention which can be provided. Try growing up sonny boy and smell what it is you're trying to shovel. 2
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Do you even grasp how conditioned you have become to this no fault anything goes culture today? How many times are you going to excuse people for their irresponsible CHOICES by sayng it is the heat of passion, or the person has a strong sex drive, etc. etc. GET REAL! Why not say that murderers have a strong killing drive and excuse their choices? How about theives have a strong drive to steal things, or arsonists have a strong drive to burn things. SPARE US ALL THE NO FAULT DENIAL OF A PERSONS RESPONSIBILITY NOT TO HAVE SEX WITHOUT BIRTH CONTROL. STOP with these rare cases of rape, incest, life of mother excuses! The Democrt Party and people like you WOULD NEVER COMPROMISE to allow only these extreme case abortions. I know because the GOP has aready tried to compromise with Democrats with 20 week (FIVE MONTH) limits on abortions except in extreme cases as you mentioned, and the Democrat Party refused to compromise! I get so tired trying to debate pro choice people. You live in constant denial of what you support and constantly use rare extreme case excuses to justify your no restriction abortion Democrats. 1) Have you ever seen an abortion procedure being done? Morally supported two friends. One had an abortion after 1 month and a half of pregnancy. The other after 3 months. They both had to go through different procedures. I never ever want to be in their position. The decision was difficult and morally depressing. The pill had her throw up for days and have terrible cramps for weeks. The vacuum looked painful but was mostly morally depressing. I think that women are not informed very well about the procedures. Abortion is NOT an easy experience. It is terrible. I think that abortion is mostly showed as a possibility when you are pregnant and you don't want to continue the pregnancy. If they explicitly explained the procedure and the moral and physical effects of abortion, I think many women will be more careful and responsible. I have to admit that what stopped and stops me from having unprotected sex was mostly STDs. The reason is because my mother showed me gruesome pictures when I young. It wasn't until I saw the experience of abortion that I started taking the pill and using a condom. It isn't something I never want to go through. 2) What happens during an abortion procedure? Describe it in as much detail as possible. I couldn't see the "Vaccum Aspiration" but I heard about it from my friend. Position on the exam table in the same position used for a pelvic exam, with your feet on stirrups while lying on your back. Insert a speculum into the vagina. Clean the vagina and cervix with an antiseptic solution. Inject a numbing medicine (local anesthetic) in the cervix. Medicine for pain or sedation, in addition to the local anesthetic, may be given by mouth or through a vein (intravenously). Vasopressin, or a similar medicine that slows uterine bleeding, may be mixed with the local anesthetic to reduce blood loss. Grasp the cervix with an instrument to hold the uterus in place. Open (dilate) the cervical canal with a small instrument. Dilation reduces the risk of any injury to the cervix during the procedure. Pass a thin tube (cannula) into the cervical canal, and apply suction to gently remove all tissue from the uterus. As the uterine tissue is removed, the uterus will contract. Most women feel cramping during the procedure. The cramps will decrease after the tube is removed. Some women also may have nausea or sweating or feel faint. The pill well the effects were severe nausea, depression, heavy bleeding, terrible cramps. It is a worse version of the morning after pill but for 7 days. I've taken the morning after a couple times: made me very sick. Look it up for details. The other procedures I do not know about through experience. The other procedures are for late pregnancies. It seems that the further the abortion is the more painful and psychologically damaging. 3) Do you think it is okay to cut up a baby and then vacuum it out of its mothers uterus? I am guessing you are talking about the abortions procedure after 12 weeks. It sounds like a such a terrible procedure for the mother to go through... Are you okay with the ones before 12 weeks (the pill)? 4) If the baby is not a human, what is it? The species of the future baby is human. 5) If life does not begin at conception, when does it begin? What is life? If the organism has the capacity for growth, functional activity, and continual change preceding death, it is alive. That is the determining condition to life. Anything that does not consume to survive is not alive. 6) If you do not know when life begins, how could you make such a hazardous presumption? Now, according to my answers, I am a killer of babies. I will take it. I mean technically according the definition of life, abortion ends life. So, does masturbation, antibiotics, hunting, wars, suicide... The reason I am pro-choice isn't because of the definition of life. No matter what you say the being growing inside my uterus, "breathing" my oxygen, consuming my food depends on my survival. What I do to MY body is MY business. And the fetus is part of me. So, no one external to me has a say. 1
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You asked good questions and will never get good answers. That would be like asking the Germans to describe the gas chamber process, or maybe showing a video of the gassings for all Germans to see. That would be like asking them at what stage does a Jewish person deserve life. They have no answers. All they have is the same old tired pro abortion rhetoric to try and excuse their inhumanity. No one knows much about the abortion process because the Left makes sure they do not show the medical procedure to the electorate. If they did so, there would be an outcry from people who still possess some humanity. It's funny..... after decades of controversy and bitter politics over this issue, wouldn't you think the pro abortion people would want us all to be educated to what the procedure entails? This way they could make their case for abortion. They show so many other medical procedures on the operating table to educate the public. Nah, they know they have no case and giving the details of the procedure would hurt their deception to the public. The fact that they refuse to show the procedure SAYS IT ALL! They know it is a barbaric torturous procedure and would sicken anyone who watched. These phoney pro choice people who say they would not personally have an abortion, but would afford others the right to kill their babies, would probably refuse to watch the video because deep down they all know how inhumn and barbaric it is. They want to pretend to be ignorant of what takes place. After it is all said and done, these pro abortion people will ALWAYS fall back on the rhetoric of "Life of Mother abortions" because that is the only plausible reason for an abortion. They would never compromise for just the extreme case abortions because these cases are not the real reason for their no restriction abortions supported by the Democrat Party. It's all politics, big money, feminist pro abotion lobby. The new buzz word for the Democrat Party is "health of mother" abortions which means all abortions are ok at any stage for any reason because all the mother has to say is that she is depressed. Depression is a health issue don't you know? These radical pro abortion Democrats even lack the simple humanity to ok the GOP compromise of 20 week abortion limits unless extreme cases. Yet you will constantly hear about life of mother abortions for their excuse. Fool liars every one of them! 0
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Ooh. Your Nazi argument falls apart here. The people who could describe the gas chambers were the actual Nazis who were doing the killings. The pro "life" crowd can describe an abortion because they go look for that stuff. The non Nazi Germans couldn't describe gas chambers because they weren't responsible for them. The pro choice crowd can't describe abortions because they don't like abortions. Thanks for admitting you are a Nazi and not a regular German. Margaret Sanger created Planned Parenthood to help with another horrific practice eugenics, a sick belief that the human "gene pool" would be improved through selective breeding and sterilization. In Sanger's case improving the gene pool meant keeping African-Americans, morons, those with family background with a history of illnesses and other undesirables from reproducing. She also advocated strict immigration rules to keep the "undesirables' out of the country. During a March 27, 2009 speech accepting the Margaret Sanger Award from Planned Parenthood, Clinton talked about being in awe of the racist eugenicist: Now, I have to tell you that it was a great privilege when I was told that I would receive this award. I admire Margaret Sanger enormously, her courage, her tenacity, her vision. Another of my great friends, Ellen Chesler, is here, who wrote a magnificent biography of Margaret Sanger called Woman of Valor. And when I think about what she did all those years ago in Brooklyn, taking on archetypes, taking on attitudes and accusations flowing from all directions, I am really in awe of her. You Progressives are about eugenics and Hillary admitted it ! 1) Have you ever seen an abortion procedure being done? Not in person. I have neither performed an abortion nor received one nor accompanied anyone from my love life or family for the purpose of getting one. 2) What happens during an abortion procedure? Describe it in as much detail as possible. That's kind of like asking a non-surgeon to describe any kind of surgery. Furthermore there are many types and usage varies on a case by case basis. http://americanpregnancy.org/ 3) Do you think it is okay to cut up a baby and then vacuum it out of its mothers uterus? Yes, if it is within defined legal parameters (with the right for the mother to decide, and not too far along in development, and sticking to approved kinds of procedures). 4) If the baby is not a human, what is it? It is human. Although I am pro choice I have never accepted the argument it somehow isn't human. Instead my counter is there are many many other ways in which society endorses killing and abortion happens to be one of them. It is killing a human. But it is legal. Murder by definition is illegal killing. Abortion is not murder. 5) If life does not begin at conception, when does it begin? Same answer as #4 for me. 6) If you do not know when life begins, how could you make such a hazardous presumption? Same answer as #4 for me. And I'll close with this. I and my wife have never had an abortion and never plan to. And beyond the mother excercising her right to choose (which is sufficient in and of itself for me) there are other fully legitimate reasons to abort including: 1) Rape, 2) Incest, 3) Risk to mother's life, 4) Shrinking time window for resetting for a successful pregnancy, 5) terminal disease or condition detected in the fetus, etc. 1
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I have already defended your first 6 points in this argument I'm not putting it out again. As for your final statement (Rape, incest, etc), I want to have a healthy discussion on that topic but could you please answer whether you believe that all abortions are bad and that rape and incest are the exception or are they all okay to do? No, I didn't say abortion was "bad" at all. I said it was killing, but not murder. Killing is not automatically bad. Society allows killing for self defense, war, police action, euthanasia in some places, risky surgery, and more. Abortion is just one more of those. Also I'm not fluttering around every possible response outside of my own so I haven't seen where you somehow point by point refuted me. Margaret Sanger created Planned Parenthood to help with another horrific practice eugenics, a sick belief that the human "gene pool" would be improved through selective breeding and sterilization. In Sanger's case improving the gene pool meant keeping African-Americans, morons, those with family background with a history of illnesses and other undesirables from reproducing. She also advocated strict immigration rules to keep the "undesirables' out of the country. During a March 27, 2009 speech accepting the Margaret Sanger Award from Planned Parenthood, Clinton talked about being in awe of the racist eugenicist: Now, I have to tell you that it was a great privilege when I was told that I would receive this award. I admire Margaret Sanger enormously, her courage, her tenacity, her vision. Another of my great friends, Ellen Chesler, is here, who wrote a magnificent biography of Margaret Sanger called Woman of Valor. And when I think about what she did all those years ago in Brooklyn, taking on archetypes, taking on attitudes and accusations flowing from all directions, I am really in awe of her. You Progressives are about eugenics and Hillary admitted it ! Why is that under my thread? I'm not a "Progressive", none of the prior discussion singled out Planned Parenthood in any way for yay or nay, and many who voted for Hillary were voting against Trump. Once again you debate against the stereotype of whom you think opposes you instead of what your actual opponents believe or say. 0
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Pro choice peoplecan't even grasp how conditioned they have become to this no fault anything goes culture today? How many times are they going to excuse people for their irresponsible CHOICES by saying unprotected sex is in the heat of passion, or the person has a strong sex drive, etc. etc. GET REAL! Why not say that murderers have a strong killing drive and excuse their choices? How about theives have a strong drive to steal things, or arsonists have a strong drive to burn things. SPARE US ALL THE NO FAULT DENIAL OF A PERSONS RESPONSIBILITY NOT TO HAVE SEX WITHOUT BIRTH CONTROL. STOP with these rare cases of rape, incest, life of mother excuses! The Democrt Party and pro choicers WOULD NEVER COMPROMISE to allow only these extreme case abortions. I know because the GOP has aready tried to compromise with Democrats with 20 week (FIVE MONTH) limits on abortions except in extreme cases as you mentioned, and the Democrat Party refused to compromise! I get so tired trying to debate pro choice people. You live in constant denial of what you support and constantly use rare extreme case excuses to justify abortions on demand for any reason. 0
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