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"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. If you try it, you will be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." -- Friedrich Nietzsche
"Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength. The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.There is no commandment greater than these." - Mark 12:30-31
If you love your God with all of your heart, you have no heart left for you or your neighbors. It is telling to me that an imaginary God taken on faith alone comes before your consideration for actual, tangible people.
The first claim does; you are correct. I was not especially serious about that though, largely because I think the notion of loving anything with "all" of your "heart" is patently absurd in and of itself.
The second claim does not. Srom expressly indicated that love for God was first and that love of self and neighbor was secondary in the ordering that was ascribed to the quotations provided.
The complete and utter lack of any evidence says there are only imaginary gods.
There is lots of evidence that shows the God exists. It's whether or not you interpret it as evidence. Sadly though people like you fail to see the evidence that I present and thus it's your loss.
Even if your God were real... your observation that God comes before all else makes Him officially the biggest egomaniac in the universe.
There is no "if" God was real. God is real whether you think God isn't real, He is real but it's your loss that you fail to see that He exists.
There is lots of evidence that shows the God exists. It's whether or not you interpret it as evidence.
Translation: There is evidence for the existence of God is you have no real standards for what constitutes evidence. The same is true for the Yeti and Loch Ness. Congratulations.
There is no "if" God was real. God is real whether you think God isn't real, He is real but it's your loss that you fail to see that He exists.
I fail to see how not believing in and worshiping the biggest egomaniac in the universe is my loss...
Well there is many things that don't have enough evidence but have been said is real. For example Pluto being a asteroid or meteor there is no scientific evidence saying it really is. Also evolution and all that, do we really come from the family of the apes. There is many things that have not been proven but that doesn't mean it isn't true or isn't real. Anything is possible
No I did not say that. You can believe want you want to, to tell you the truth I don't really care if you believe in god or not. Everyone can believe what they want to and people shouldn't judge them for it. Now with Pluto the size I have seen what some haven't and if you actually keep up with stuff you should know that there have sighting of these two dwarf planetsthat haven't been put as a meteor so why can't Pluto be a dwarf planet and the path of it, now I dont believe that there never been a meteor revolve around the sun over and over.
With Pluto you said there was absolutely no evidence for believing it isn't a planet. You are now admitting that there is evidence that Pluto isn't a planet, but it could also be seen if Pluto is a planet. So, your statement that there is no evidence Pluto is not a planet is false.
now I dont believe that there never been a meteor revolve around the sun over and over.
That is like me saying, I don't believe God could exist, therefore there is no evidence of God.
Everyone can believe what they want to and people shouldn't judge them for it.
When you talk about your opinions in a DEBATING SITE, expect them to be judged.
Now with Pluto the size I have seen what some haven't and if you actually keep up with stuff you should know that there have sighting of these two dwarf planetsthat haven't been put as a meteor so why can't Pluto be a dwarf planet and the path of it, now I dont believe that there never been a meteor revolve around the sun over and over.
o_o
lolwut
Could you retype that, and try use proper grammar?
Well there is many things that don't have enough evidence but have been said is real.
The problem with God is not that there is not enough evidence, but that there is no evidence whatsoever.
For example Pluto being a asteroid or meteor there is no scientific evidence saying it really is.
Right, except that whatever we call Pluto there is evidence that it actually exists. The same cannot be true about God.
Also evolution and all that, do we really come from the family of the apes.
Yes. The evidence does not disappear just because it is hard for you to grasp.
There is many things that have not been proven but that doesn't mean it isn't true or isn't real.
That other things may be believed in without proof does not mean that we should believe in them, nor does it in any way make belief in God without evidence any less irrational itself.
Anything is possible.
Sure. God is possible. So are Unicorns and leprechauns. Possible does not mean probable, and it remains a simple fact that believing in something improbable (e.g. God) without any logical reason for doing so is not rational. To guide your life according to the words some old dead people said that God said (why, hello, hearsay) is adding insult to injury for rational thought.
Well, that is not quite true. There is no evidence that can only be explained with God.
Evidence proves something; it is the explanation and you do not need an explanation to justify its existence. God, on the other hand, is something which needs to be explained and proven within reasonable probability to merit belief. There is no evidence to do that.
Except, it isn't right. Since Pluto can be observed, we can classify it. I can't believe you missed that. :)
You misunderstood me. I recognize that we can classify Pluto. My point was that the physical existence of Pluto is an objective fact whereas its classification is subjective. I drew the distinction to indicate the inaccuracy of the comparison.
Just remember though, you can live according to God without following the Bible.
You can live according to a belief in God in just about any manner that strikes the imagination. I fail to see why that matters.
No, evidence doesn't have to be strong enough to prove something. If you have an idea of what happens, you can point to evidence to demonstrate your idea is correct. But, your idea may not have enough evidence to be proven correct even if it is correct. If God exists, we can point to a bunch of things that the existence of God can explain. But, if God doesn't exist we can explain how those things work naturally. There is evidence for God, but it is very weak.
it is the explanation and you do not need an explanation to justify its existence. God, on the other hand, is something which needs to be explained and proven within reasonable probability to merit belief. There is no evidence to do that.
That's what I was trying to say. Anything that can be used to explain God can also be explained by nature, so there is nothing uniquely God.
You misunderstood me. I recognize that we can classify Pluto. My point was that the physical existence of Pluto is an objective fact whereas its classification is subjective. I drew the distinction to indicate the inaccuracy of the comparison.
No, I was objecting to you saying "right" to him when his statement was wrong. I got what you were saying.
You can live according to a belief in God in just about any manner that strikes the imagination. I fail to see why that matters.
You were being very condescending to people who follow a really old book which sounds like you are only targeting Christians. Not all believers are jerks who are stuck following ancient idiots. That's all.
No, evidence doesn't have to be strong enough to prove something. If you have an idea of what happens, you can point to evidence to demonstrate your idea is correct. But, your idea may not have enough evidence to be proven correct even if it is correct.
I should have said evidence goes toward proving something; I trust that clarifies my stance.
If God exists, we can point to a bunch of things that the existence of God can explain. But, if God doesn't exist we can explain how those things work naturally.
An unproven, unfounded, contradicted idea does not explain anything; it posits conjectures disguised as explanations for things we do not yet understand.
There is evidence for God, but it is very weak.
What evidence?
That's what I was trying to say. Anything that can be used to explain God can also be explained by nature, so there is nothing uniquely God.
If the purported "evidence" is not unique to God, then it does not legitimize God as a probable reality because the "evidence" could signify something wholly independent of God.
No, I was objecting to you saying "right" to him when his statement was wrong. I got what you were saying.
It was a rhetorical/sarcastic "right"; the substance of my argument made it clear I was not actually agreeing.
You were being very condescending to people who follow a really old book which sounds like you are only targeting Christians. Not all believers are jerks who are stuck following ancient idiots. That's all.
In what way, precisely, was I being condescending? The comparison was accurate and the observation sound.
Christians are hardly the only ones whose religion derives from old dead men, but in point of fact I was addressing Christianity specifically because that was the religion in question with the OP with whom I was initially engaged. I extend my sentiment equally to all religions, if that makes you feel better.
Not all believers may be jerks, but their religious beliefs are innately idiotic.
I should have said evidence goes toward proving something; I trust that clarifies my stance.
Ok, but just because it is weak doesn't mean it isn't evidence. :(
An unproven, unfounded, contradicted idea does not explain anything; it posits conjectures disguised as explanations for things we do not yet understand.
This statement doesn't follow from what I said. My statement was based on a notion that God exists. Your stance assumes that God doesn't exist.
What evidence?
It is random stuff that is also natural. In the case of God the evidence has a natural explanation, but if God used nature to do it we wouldn't be able to tell the difference. Most of the stuff that religious people use to justify God is evidence, but it isn't enough to conclude God exists. Here is one though. Every living thing seems to have intelligence. God could be the source of that intelligence.
If the purported "evidence" is not unique to God, then it does not legitimize God as a probable reality because the "evidence" could signify something wholly independent of God.
Yeah, but if it can be used for God, people will use it to justify their beliefs.
It was a rhetorical/sarcastic "right"; the substance of my argument made it clear I was not actually agreeing.
And the substance of my argument would lead you to believe that I wasn't disagreeing with you, yet here we are.
In what way, precisely, was I being condescending? The comparison was accurate and the observation sound.
It was sound for one group of people, but used against a different group of people.
Christians are hardly the only ones whose religion derives from old dead men, but in point of fact I was addressing Christianity specifically because that was the religion in question with the OP with whom I was initially engaged. I extend my sentiment equally to all religions, if that makes you feel better.
Not all theists are religious. Some just believe in God.
Not all believers may be jerks, but their religious beliefs are innately idiotic.
Well, theoretically, one could follow a thousand year old book and not be idiotic, but yeah, you have a good point.
Ok, but just because it is weak doesn't mean it isn't evidence. :(
I never said it did mean that.
This statement doesn't follow from what I said. My statement was based on a notion that God exists. Your stance assumes that God doesn't exist.
It is entirely responsive. Firstly, it was an argument to favor your second if-then proposition. Secondly, I was pointing out (admittedly with some hyperbole) that even if God does exist it is not an explanation of the evidence (rather, the evidence would still be evidence of something, in this case God). You are attempting to invert the relationship between the evidence and the conclusion, and I am saying you cannot reasonably do that.
It is random stuff that is also natural. [...] Here is one though. Every living thing seems to have intelligence. God could be the source of that intelligence.
It does not exist. Your sole example is nothing but an assertion lacking any causal link or uniqueness whatsoever; this is not evidence. It is equally plausible to say that every living thing seems to have intelligence (which is not even correct), and leprechauns could be the source of that intelligence. If one so dilutes the term evidence to mean virtually any thought someone has then the term altogether loses its meaning.
Yeah, but if it can be used for God, people will use it to justify their beliefs.
The evidence must be unique to actually be evidence for God. Just because people ignore that and misuse the evidence does not mean they have proven their case.
It was sound for one group of people, but used against a different group of people.
The general observation was sound for all religious groups. As for the metaphor, of course it was for one group... because, as I just explained, it was intended to target that group.
You still have not substantiated your claim that I was being condescending.
Not all theists are religious. Some just believe in God.
Your point? I was not talking about theists.
Well, theoretically, one could follow a thousand year old book and not be idiotic, but yeah, you have a good point.
You did when you said there is absolutely no evidence.
It is entirely responsive. Firstly, it was an argument to favor your second if-then proposition. Secondly, I was pointing out (admittedly with some hyperbole) that even if God does exist it is not an explanation of the evidence (rather, the evidence would still be evidence of something, in this case God). You are attempting to invert the relationship between the evidence and the conclusion, and I am saying you cannot reasonably do that.
We can invert the relationship between evidence and conclusion if we already have the conclusion. If we know the conclusion we can go back and say, oh this piece of evidence does point to that conclusion.
It does not exist. Your sole example is nothing but an assertion lacking any causal link or uniqueness whatsoever; this is not evidence. It is equally plausible to say that every living thing seems to have intelligence (which is not even correct), and leprechauns could be the source of that intelligence. If one so dilutes the term evidence to mean virtually any thought someone has then the term altogether loses its meaning.
Actually, my assertion that everything has intelligence is accurate. There is a term known as bacterial intelligence. No, if we dilute the term evidence, we create religion. :)
The evidence must be unique to actually be evidence for God. Just because people ignore that and misuse the evidence does not mean they have proven their case.
If you continue to use the word proven it will only show you are unintelligent. We already established that something doesn't have to be proven. The evidence doesn't have to be uniquely for God in order for people to believe in God, clearly.
The general observation was sound for all religious groups. As for the metaphor, of course it was for one group... because, as I just explained, it was intended to target that group.
You still have not substantiated your claim that I was being condescending.
It is condescending because I just got through telling you that I am not only talking about religious groups.
Your point? I was not talking about theists.
You were talking about theists in your first sentence, then expanded to religious people in your second sentence without a real transition.
I thought so.
Yeah, I don't really disagree with your assessment.
You did when you said there is absolutely no evidence.
I said there is absolutely no evidence, within my presumed definition of evidence where the term actually means something. If one is to expand the term to mean virtually anything, then of course there is "weak evidence" (though I would contend it means just as little as it did before).
We can invert the relationship between evidence and conclusion if we already have the conclusion. If we know the conclusion we can go back and say, oh this piece of evidence does point to that conclusion.
If you "know" your conclusion first, then you will necessarily distort the evidence to substantiate your belief in that "known" conclusion. Holding a conclusion as forgone prior to having substantiation creates a filter through which all evidence is twisted.
Actually, my assertion that everything has intelligence is accurate. There is a term known as bacterial intelligence.
Split more semantic hairs to avoid actual debate, why don't you? My point was actually that your example was non-causal and non-unique. Of course, why address the substance of my argument; far easier to pick on the tangent.
No, if we dilute the term evidence, we create religion. :)
Evidence does not become religion through dilution; it becomes "proof" of religion through dilution. That is the only way religion can attempt to legitimate itself. My point is that at the point where evidence is so diluted, it means nothing to say there is "evidence" supporting the validity of the religious claim.
If you continue to use the word proven it will only show you are unintelligent. We already established that something doesn't have to be proven.
A thing can be proven within probability, and my express point all along has been that religion cannot be proven probable. You have not effectively disputed that; semantics rather than substance seem your game.
The evidence doesn't have to be uniquely for God in order for people to believe in God, clearly.
That people believe something to be true does not make it true. People do not need anything to believe in God other than a disposition to delusion and recalcitrance to logic; that hardly stands in the favour of religion or its foundation in reason. The evidence must be unique to constitute an actual legitimization of religion.
It is condescending because I just got through telling you that I am not only talking about religious groups.
That is all good and well, but you have taken my initial comments out of their original context in which I was not talking with you yet. Which I am quite done explaining repeatedly to no effect.
You were talking about theists in your first sentence, then expanded to religious people in your second sentence without a real transition.
I have already explained why, when an explanation was not even really necessary. You are harping on irrelevant observations and personal attacks rather than addressing the substance of my argument. This strongly suggests you have no actual substantive response.
I said there is absolutely no evidence, within my presumed definition of evidence where the term actually means something. If one is to expand the term to mean virtually anything, then of course there is "weak evidence" (though I would contend it means just as little as it did before).
Your definition is just as bad because it is too strict.
If you "know" your conclusion first, then you will necessarily distort the evidence to substantiate your belief in that "known" conclusion. Holding a conclusion as forgone prior to having substantiation creates a filter through which all evidence is twisted.
Agreed, but my point is more that if you had stronger evidence that your conclusion is true, the weaker evidence will also support that conclusion even though by itself it doesn't.
Split more semantic hairs to avoid actual debate, why don't you? My point was actually that your example was non-causal and non-unique. Of course, why address the substance of my argument; far easier to pick on the tangent.
I just helped correct your statement. I clearly didn't ignore your argument. I had a follow up sentence that continued with the rest of your argument. You took my one sentence and attacked the tangent.
Evidence does not become religion through dilution; it becomes "proof" of religion through dilution. That is the only way religion can attempt to legitimate itself. My point is that at the point where evidence is so diluted, it means nothing to say there is "evidence" supporting the validity of the religious claim.
I guess I am using the Ken Ham definition.
A thing can be proven within probability, and my express point all along has been that religion cannot be proven probable. You have not effectively disputed that; semantics rather than substance seem your game.
I agree that religion isn't provable (depending on how scientific the religion is), but screwing up words and complaining about the other guy seems to be your game.
That people believe something to be true does not make it true. People do not need anything to believe in God other than a disposition to delusion and recalcitrance to logic; that hardly stands in the favour of religion or its foundation in reason. The evidence must be unique to constitute an actual legitimization of religion.
I didn't say that religion is being legitimized. I think they are "explaining" how they are correct. I agree, it does have to be unique in order for legitimacy. That bothers me too.
That is all good and well, but you have taken my initial comments out of their original context in which I was not talking with you yet. Which I am quite done explaining repeatedly to no effect.
The only context was referencing an old book. But, I can see how you were only targeting religious people.
I have already explained why, when an explanation was not even really necessary. You are harping on irrelevant observations and personal attacks rather than addressing the substance of my argument. This strongly suggests you have no actual substantive response.
What the hell are you talking about? You are the one who attacked people who use an old book. I didn't attack anyone.
I don't actually disagree with your argument. My whole problem with your post really is semantics. It is kind of funny that you call me out on it.
I am thoroughly done having my original response on this thread misrepresented. I initially made no express reference to the Bible, but have openly acknowledged multiple times now that I was making indirect reference to it since that is the faith of the OP to whom I was responding. My observation was entirely to point, semantically correct, and as of present wholly unrefuted. I am tired of seeing a dead horse beaten repeatedly when it was not even my horse to begin with.
As for the remaining matters in this thread, I find your present reply unresponsive to most of my arguments and feel no interest in reiterating myself to what is clearly limited effect.
You may reply if you see fit, but I decline to continue this particular exchange.
"Don't judge a book by it's cover" - Unknown or "Which is better? To be born good? Or to overcome your evil with great effort?" - Paarthurnax (Skyrim Character).
"You can do anything as long as you put your mind to it"
Many powerful people said that. They basically gave me permission to commit a crime. They also gave me permission to state the bullshitness of Christianity. So don't ever say that to a child. Because you gave them permission to commit a crime.