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When does human life begin?
I used to think life began at birth until I saw a picture of a baby born at 15 weeks. I am now prolife and I think life begins at implantation. I make an exception for the life of the mother, though.
Asking this question requires you to make arbitrary choices.
Are you going to use the most common current definition of life that biologists use? Because that definition isn't the only one that has been used, and is a source of some debate among biologists. That very definition itself is arbitrary.
Even if we go with that definition, and most people choose to, we still have different scientists saying different things. Each of the following points has been supported by multiple scientists:
Conception (genetically distinct, but still far from being biologically distinct/viable. Also, fewer than 30% of fertilized eggs ever become fetuses. For these and other reasons, few scientists support this anymore)
Gastrulation (about 14 days)
(It should be noted that sex isn't determined until about 6 weeks in. Since this is one of the most important and personal aspects of being a human, some argue that we can't be considered independent beings until some time after this point. )
Start of a recognizable EEG pattern (about 24-27 weeks in)
(Some scientists have aegued that the heartbeat would be the point, but since this is an autonomous muscle function many argue that this is excessively arbitrary)
Viability (the ability to carry on all normal functions outside of the womb without assistance. Usually believed to be about 25 weeks, although more gestation time is seriously recommended and preferred when possible.)
Birth
So first you've got to decide which is the most valid. This will be arbitrary and personal. If even biologists (people who spend their lives studying life) can't come to a uniform consensus of when life starts or what life even truly is, your decision can't be taken as fact. I know it sounds counter-intuitive to saw "when life starts" is an opinion question. But for all intents and purposes, it is, at least at this point.
The other problem is every fetus gestates differently. Most of the points I listed above exist on a continuum instead of at a specific day in the pregnancy. And there are recorded cases reaching that point far earlier or far later than normal for almost every category.
This whole thing would be easier if we could highlight a soul or some other "essence of life". But after all these thousands of years, billions of births and more research than almost any other aspect of human existence, such a thing still can't be found. If we can't even prove that such a thing exists, how can we say when it entered the body?
Again, our choice would be arbitrary, and in this case, we don't even have any evidence or tests we can do to make a more informed decision.
The way I see it, it is a gradual process, one that varies from pregnancy to pregnancy, and life itself is practically an artificial concept. There is no "point when life begins". But one thing we can be sure of, if that baby is alive at birth, it is independent and generally viable. That is the ONE point when we can be 100% certain that it is a life form.
I'd say that is more accurate than fertilization. Although from a truly technical standpoint, the sperm and the egg were already alive before they even met, so if we want to be truly accurate, life began before the sex even happened.
That's the problem, in my opinion. Its not really about when the life began. Most of the cells in the woman are alive, as are all her organs. To me its about determing when the fetus counts as an individual, and that's what all the points after fertilization that I mentioned attempt to do. It is true that the fetus has its own DNA by the point of implantation, but the "final result" is nowhere near determined yet (epigentics, womb environment and whatnot play a huge role in defining the individual and even the sex isn't determined yet). It is very difficult to properly differentiate the fetus from, say, any organ the woman has. This is why many pro-choicers and abortion friendly doctors choose the stage of viability. And as far as I know, most or all states make abortion illegal after viability is achieved.
But again, not all doctors agree.
It's a difficult and complex topic, and it comes down more to belief than facts. Which is something I'm not very comfortable with. But we work with what we've got, I guess.
Changes in the gene sequence that were not changes in the DNA. Epigentic changes can have a huge impact during pregnancy and can have an effect on evolution without relying on mutation.
I described it incorrectly...its changes in gene expression, not sequence. But as far as I can tell, that article is accurate enough to give you good information on the topic.
I'm asking you for your reasoning to believe that god exists, that's relevant to your reply, and if you consider your reply relevant to the debate, then my earlier reply should be relevant to the debate (since you decided that it was of supreme importance to parrot your beliefs for the umpteenth time).
At which point I'm just going to say that since both sperm and egg grow and develop, life works like more of a continuous stream, waxing and waning with time.
It ultimately depends on what you mean by the term 'human life,' which is a pretty ambiguous statement.
In terms of being biologically alive, fertilization. It's true that the sperm and egg cells are themselves alive prior to fertilization, but these aren't organisms themselves rather than part of the tissues of the parents bodies; it only becomes a distinct organism at fertilization.
Of course, that's only one definition. True, a zygote is biologically alive, but so is a brain dead individual, and so is the follicle from a hair that has just been removed. I turn, at this point, to the characteristics of life
1-3, cells/organization/energy use, are present from the moment of fertilization. What about others?
4, response to the environment, is reliant on the nervous system in our family of organisms. This begins developing in the first trimester, but does not develop the capacity to actually receive or respond to even the most basic of stimuli until well into the second trimester in most cases; a fetus does not meet this criterion prior to this.
5, growth, begins almost immediately after fertilization.
6, reproduction, is possible from fertilization on in the form of cellular division. While this isn't generally considered reproduction given that we are multi-cellular organisms, twinning can occur as a result of cellular division, and twinning is a form of reproduction, strictly speaking. "Normal" reproduction isn't possible in most cases prior to the onset of puberty, but I'll give the benefit of the doubt and mark this down at fertilization.
7, adaptation, is similarly reliant on information from the nervous system, and as such can't really occur prior to the second trimester.
So, we've got two working definitions now.
A newly fertilized zygote is biologically alive in a technical sense, just as a brain dead individual, or a recently shed drop of blood is.
A second semester fetus is just beginning to meet all of the criteria we use to define life. It is alive in the same sense that a spider is alive, or grass is alive.
Remember, though, that we're talking about human life here- the second trimester fetus meets the same criteria that a blade of grass or a spider meets, and neither of these are considered to be comparable to human life by most. Even vegans still consume plants, which are considered alive by the same criteria.
The final piece of the puzzle is labelled differently by different people; I usually go with 'personhood' as a catch-all term for self-awareness, personality, and those various traits that differentiate an individual. These are quite important; if these are completely overlooked, identical twins could be considered as the same person, and we would similarly be compelled to keep brain dead individuals on life support indefinitely. There is no clear point where these qualities emerge, though. The process of their development begins mostly from birth, as the brain requires stimulation from external stimuli that aren't present in the womb (or at least, not in a manner conducive to such developments). Self awareness CAN develop in an infant as young as 6 months, but it generally doesn't; this usually develops somewhere between the 1 and 2 year mark, typically at around 18 months. Personality is a lifelong developmental process, but is similarly sufficiently developed to call a personality at around 2-3 years of age, earlier on very rare occasion.
So now, we've got three breakpoints.
A newly fertilized zygote is biologically alive in a technical sense, just as a brain dead individual, or a recently shed drop of blood is.
A second semester fetus is just beginning to meet all of the criteria we use to define life. It is alive in the same sense that a spider is alive, or grass is alive.
A 2-3 year old human has generally developed self awareness and a personality. It is alive and a person in the same sense that we generally attribute to other people.
From this, I would favor the 2-3 year old mark. Calling a zygote a human life is not technically incorrect, as it is human, and it is alive. However, that same definition is applicable to a random blood cell in a spilled drop of blood- I don't think many are likely to call a drop of blood a human life.
That said, these topics are almost always backhanded attempts to discuss and/or justify varying stances on abortion. Personally, I don't condone abortion beyond the first trimester except in very specific scenarios; I don't think human qualities should be the only consideration in this. As noted before, much of the nervous system development occurs in the second trimester, such that fetuses at this point- while not self aware by any stretch- are still capable of feeling pain and fear at a very primal level, just as most animals can- it meets the same criteria for life at this stage that every other animal does. I don't condone putting an animal down just because it's an inconvenience, and it would be quite strange to make an exception to this simply because the animal in question happens to have human dna. Specific scenarios might justify aborting a second or even third trimester fetus, such as a very high threat to the mothers life (a rarity in the modern developed world, but FAR from unheard of)- I would similarly feel justified in killing an animal that represented a significant threat to me or mine.
That's ultimately what it boils down to. At fertilization, the zygote is alive only in a technical sense. From the second trimester through the first couple of years of life, it's essentially an animal (I know that humans are animals technically speaking, but I'm using it in a broader sense regarding the presence or absence of human-specific characteristics). It's not really a person until the 2-3 year mark, though I'll admit to a tendency to treat them as such earlier than that, biological predispositions and all. Any parent knows that for the first couple of years, the little guys are more like very needy pets than little people ;P
I don't believe I said they can't- sorry if I accidentally said something that might imply otherwise. In most cases they can perform an emergency caesarean, and in some cases carefully monitored induced labor is a perfect solution that can result in both surviving and thriving. I wasn't referring to these in my post.
I was referring to those cases (very rare in the modern developed world, not so rare elsewhere), wherein the mothers prognosis is such that the likelihood of her surviving either induced labor or an emergency caesarean are slim. These represent a small proportion of life-threatening pregnancies, as most of them can in fact be handled by emergency caesarean, and some can be handled by induced labor.
It'd be great if things were that clean cut, but in reality it's generally more complicated. Arbitrary numbers: You might be looking at a 60% survival rate for the mother if she delivers vs a 95% survival rate for the mother if she aborts, further conflated by the baby itself only having about a 50% chance of surviving delivery/caesarean. The prognosis might be much better, might be much worse. Legislating hard criteria for this seems to be very difficult, and would seem to also necessitate strict regulations regarding how the percentages are calculated, which itself necessitates spending more time in situations where time might be precious, and it goes on and on and on...
No one is "completely moral relativist". If someone brutally rapes a child to the point of the child bleeding to death and then blows himself up in a shopping centre killing 150 people, you consider his act not objectively wrong? So when we ask the judge why he was given a life sentence the only rational answer the judge can give is "we feel it is wrong".
Just because everyone may unanimously decide to think some action is moral or immoral does not make it an objective truth. You cannot substantiate empirical evidence for objective morals.
Speaking;of your scenario; the person who committed these actions certainly didn't think they were the wrong thing to do. Sure, perhaps he/she understood society outlawed these things, but all that can amount to is shame or guilt in the mind of someone such as this. The judge, in this scenario, is only a vehicle through which society's collective and agreed upon morals are enacted and enforced.
The morals of society are often organic in nature. They come from observations and we can predict someone's moral disgust (independent of the society they come from) by the qualities of the act. Generally, the more harm the act does the more immoral it is, the more 'innocent' the victim the more immoral it is etc. Conversely, kindness etc is a fundamentally moral act. We can identify acts that are moral and immoral.
If a society decides that rape is moral, this does not make it so and it would be up to others to argue that rape is inherently immoral. With your model of thinking, it would be idiotic to argue that rape was wrong in such a society.
There is nothing objectively "wrong" about it, in the sense that morality itself is a subjective construct. Objectively, we can conclude that society should act to punish/deter/respond to such behavior not because it is "wrong" but because failure to do so is against the interest and well-being of collective stability, etc.
Not objectively. You can assert it all you like, but ultimately the moral judgement you attach to rape and murder are emotionally derived, subjective opinions.
That is entirely non-responsive to my point. You have given yet another subjective, emotional assertion of "wrong-ness" without even beginning to address my point about the problematic nature of moral judgement itself.
I am not in any way saying that rape and murder should be condoned, nor that they should go unresponded to. What I am saying is that morality does not have a place in that consideration for me because I think it lacks actual significance since it does not exist objectively.
No, actually, they are not. I just explained why. And you just failed to address my point, again. I am done wasting my time trying to explain my stance to someone who is not willing to think critically about it.
Yes they are. You are a horrible person for saying that rape and murder are not wrong. You are so typical of the left.
TLDR: He doesn't believe that rape and murder are not wrong, he just doesn't have any illusions that they are objectively wrong. He is not a horrible person for this, he is simply being realistic. Pointing out that an attitude is subjective and not objective does not amount to a denial that the individual considers the action to be wrong from his or her subjective viewpoint. Neither does it mean that the individual is indifferent to the action, much less condone it.
You're misreading him, and significantly. He is not saying that rape and murder are not wrong- he is stating that they are not objectively wrong, because he does not believe in objective morality. There is a difference there.
While both rape and murder are legal terms that are specifically applied to humans, their equivalents exist within the animal kingdom. Numerous species are known to engage in mating with a receptive partner who is actively struggling against it, obviously showing that the partner does not consent to the activity. Ducks come to mind, as an example there. Going even deeper, there are a couple of hermaphroditic species that mate by essentially fighting with one another, each trying to inseminate the other and resist being inseminated itself; both organisms genes get passed along either way, but the one who gets inseminated has the energy cost inherent in producing offspring.
What about murder? Certainly, we wouldn't consider an animal killing another one for food to be equivalent to murder, but what about disputes within the same species over mates, food, and territory? What about a lion killing cubs sired by another male?
We do not consider animals to be evil for all of these because we don't hold them to the same standards that we hold humans to.
Rape and murder are wrong, as far as just about any human is concerned. They are directly detrimental to the victim, and by extension to society and its stability in general. Jace is not disputing this, just noting that these represent subjective wrongs specific to human interests. If we are looking at the grand scheme of things, life on the planet (or universe) in general, even if the entire human species were to be wiped out, life would still go on. That is what he means by subjective vs. objective, I believe. We have a tendency to see subjective ideas at a large scale as being objective, but they aren't.
He denied the fact that rape and murder are objectively wrong because he does not believe in objective morality. He implied agreement that they were subjectively wrong and flatout said that he did not condone them. What more do you need?
Rape and murder are very wrong because they violate the rights of the victim. Anyone who denies the fact that rape and murder are wrong is sick and disgusting.
I think you fail to understand what's being said here. What we're saying is that morals are not tangible or physical. They lack any empirical evidence, and, in their nature, are concepts. We're not trying to say rape and murder are acceptable or okay, we're trying to say that the reason we deem them unacceptable is because of an agreed upon societal moral code not to do so, and NOT because of some absolute universal truth.
Rape traumatizes the victim, without question. That isn't being debated. That still doesn't make it objectively wrong, just subjectively wrong because we've decided that it is wrong.
Let's look at Genesis 2:7. It is says that Adam became a person when he breathed. We can know from any emryology textbook that the egg receives oxygen when it first implants.
Let's look at Genesis 2:7. It is says that Adam became a person when he breathed. We can know from any emryology textbook that the egg receives oxygen when it first implants.
You don't understand the difference between respiration and breathing (ventilation). The fertile egg is respiring well before implantation (it is taking in oxygen and learning it into energy). A baby doesn't breath until it is born. You can't just reinterpret what the Bible says because you watched a video in which a feotus looked cute to you LOL
Now that you understand what 'breath' actually means, how do you interpret Genesis 2:7.
That isn't exactly what respiration is but okay that is part of respiration so let's use that definition.
We first receive oxygen at implantation.
This is false. A ovum, and every other cell in the body, 'intakes oxygen'. If it didn't receive oxygen then it would die long before the point of implantation in the uterine wall.
Taking this into account, do you believe that life starts before implantation being that the fertilised egg respires before implantation?
I don't understand. I thought we were debating. Can you please address my points? I realise you believe life begins at implantation. My question is, as respiration begins at conception, how can you say that life begins at implantation?
No it doesn't. But that is not what we are talking about. If you want to talk about when the term 'pregnancy' begins then start another topic.
I'm very confused why you refuse to stay on topic and just ignore. Once again, being that respiration before implantation, why does life start during implantation?
It is a a medical fact that pregnancy and life begin at implantation. The iud prevents implantation of the egg in the uterus but is not an abortifacient. For the record, implantation happens 7 days after ovulation. It is pretty sad that a medical student does not know science.
So, basically, you have no answer how Genesis fits with your views. You just ignore it. Okay fair enough. If you don't want to debate me you don't have to.
Implantation occurs 6 to 8 days after fertilisation. Doctors use fertilisation as the point were pregnancy starts. At the point of implantation the woman is 1 week pregnant.
You are denying the medical FACT that pregnancy begins at implantation. The American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists confirms that pregnancy begins 7 days after ovulation when the egg implants to the mother's body.
Ok fine. That is not how we talk about it at medical school. According to your definition then babies are usually born at 37 weeks rather than 38. It sounds odd to me but whatever. We count weeks from the point of conception.
Anyway ok I agree pregnancy starts at implantation. You still can't tell me though - why doesn't life start at conception?
No listen. I understand that pregnancy starts when implantation starts. Why does life start at pregnancy/implantation? What is the base for your opinion.
I think this is what is so difficult about debating you. When it comes down to it you can't justify your views beyonding saying "implantation=pregnancy=life". You have no idea why you think that. It is just a feeling to you. It makes it absolutely impossible for people to debate with you on it. It is like debating à catchphrase.
Your entire argument is: life starts at implantation because pregnancy starts then. You can't say why. All you can do is repeat: life starts a implantation because pregnancy starts then. Maybe saying t in slightly different ways. Why should w say life start at implantation? You have no idea, you just think it does.
I said that pregnancy (which is just a label btw) begins at implantation. All you can say about why life begins at implantation/pregnancy is: because I believe it does?
Okay then both the sites I linked you to are lying as is my lecturer and the book Langman on embryology. Give me the link to your sources that are more accurate than all mine.
From a dictionary standpoint, pregnancy is the state of having offspring developing in ones body. As such, one is technically pregnant from fertilization. A blastocyst that does not implant leaves the body without showing any real signs, but that doesn't mean it didn't exist.
It is used as the beginning from a medical standpoint because it represents the earliest point where a pregnancy can be theoretically detected. Implantation triggers the hormonal and other physiological changes that are the primary concerns regarding pregnancy from a medical standpoint. It is not that the mother is not pregnant prior to implantation, so much as that the pregnancy is not medically relevant(1) prior to implantation, and that there aren't any measurable changes from 'baseline.' Remember, from a medical perspective, the study of pregnancy is really the study of the changes that occur in the mothers body, and the development of the fetus itself. When the blastocyst doesn't implant, it doesn't trigger any changes in the mothers body, nor does it develop further. It's not a question of 'pregnant' or 'not pregnant' so much as one of medical relevancy.
1- Generally speaking. There are some conditions, primarily immune responses, that can occur based on just the presence of the zygote even before implantation. These are very rare.
You provided two references indicating that the medical relevancy of pregnancy begins at implantation. Like I said- the medical field is concerned with the medical aspects of pregnancy, which have an onset at implantation in humans and placental mammals. Your references corroborate that upon examination.
There aren't any conditions for being pregnant other than having offspring developing within ones body. If this were not the case, then the only animals capable of pregnancy would be placental mammals; non-placental mammals, reptiles, fish, amphibians, and numerous other creatures also experience pregnancy, but never have an implantation event- different processes are used to trigger changes in the parents body, and to provide nutrition et al for the young.
I am now prolife and I think life begins at implantation. I make an exception for the life of the mother, though.
Can you clarify please? So... a fetus is alive at the time of implantation unless then mother's life is at risk and then fetus is dead to you? I find that difficult to comprehend.
Do you want the science answer, or do you want a debate answer? Because tbh I don't know the science answer, and have never thought to look for it because when it comes to abortion, I rate the baby's life as worthless when compared to the mother's, however that can't stop you from searching it and having that information readily on hand.
As for the debate answer, I say life begins when you don't need someone else physically attached to you to live. Well a separate life that is. If the fetus can be extracted, and survive, even if it's hooked to machines, then by all means it's baby, and it deserves it's life, but if it has no other option asides from living in the mother and waiting to be able to even survive just breathing outside of the mother, then it's hardly a human life.
I think I said it but if I didn't the answer is when it can be safely removed from the woman. Even if it's a c section, and they have to hook the baby up to life support. So long as it's inside of her, the choice is hers.
When talking about varying viewpoints regarding rights, I don't mind considering the baby's rights regarding his or her body, even if I disagree with the other parties assessment of their value as compared to that of an adults, but I don't believe we can consider the baby's right to choose here at all. By the time the baby develops both the capacity to make an informed decision, as well as the foundational knowledge required to make an informed decision on this topic, abortion will most likely have been off the table for decades. Due to developmental limitations, no matter what amount of rights we do or do not recognize regarding a developing fetus, I don't believe that a right to choose CAN be honored, even if it is desired that we do so.