CreateDebate is a social debate community built around ideas, discussion and democracy.
If this is your first time checking out a debate, here are some quick tips to help get you started:
Arguments with the highest score are displayed first.
Argument replies (both in favor and in opposition) are displayed below the original argument.
To follow along, you may find it helpful to show and hide the replies displayed below each argument.
To vote for an argument, use these icons:
You have the power to cast exactly one vote (either up or down) for each argument.
Once you vote, the icon will become grayed out and the argument's score will change.
Yes, you can change your vote.
Debate scores, side scores and tag scores are automatically calculated by an algorithm that primarily takes argument scores into account.
All scores are updated in real-time.
To learn more about the CreateDebate scoring system, check out the FAQ.
When you are ready to voice your opinion, use the Add Argument button to create an argument.
If you would like to address an existing argument, use the Support and Dispute link within that argument to create a new reply.
You can share this debate in three different ways:
#1
#2
#3
Paste this URL into an email or IM:
Click here to send this debate via your default email application.
Click here to login and CreateDebate will send an email for you.
When has Anarchy worked?
There have been numerous times throughout history where there has been an absence of standardised rule. Has it ever worked well for the people involved? If it worked well, why hasn't it lasted? If it's better, then where is it now?
(If the terms of this debate are too subjective to provide an answer, please define in your own terms what it means for a system to work well and then go from there.)
There have been numerous times throughout history where there has been an absence of standardised rule.
I believe this to be an incorrect statement because it is based on an assumption and misunderstanding of those who favor the voluntaryist society. There really has never been a time where some sort of standard way of doing things was missing. If each one of us has a brain then, we have a standard from which to work, even if on a personal basis.
This follows and by extension folks will come up with voluntary and mutual agreements. I believe the fight comes in when some believe they can dominate over others. There are those who seek only to dominate others and if their is an available position or seat of "power" they will naturally move towards it. That being said, we can not forget that we all can become corrupted. And "Power corrupts, and is attractive to the corruptible."
The author of this debate may be looking for a comparison between a central "body of authority" and examples of decentralized societies or even no one ruler telling everyone else what to do.
There are historical examples of centralized ruling class a.k.a. the "State" and examples of what is called "Stateless societies."
Has it ever worked well for the people involved?
Tentatively, yes, in various degrees as applied to the "stateless society", but it depended on some factors as well. The Irish had a private law "system" in place called the Brehon Laws and it lasted nearly 2,000 years; must have worked pretty well to last so long. So, well that a King of England in the latter part of the "middle ages" made it "illegal" by his decree for an Englishman to live in Ireland and operate by the Irish system. Apparently, he felt the need to do so because his "subjects" were favoring the Irish way. I believe it was due to a degree of freedom it afforded to folks in living their lives.
Perhaps another example could be pointed out was the "Confederation" under the Articles of Confederation; the document the colonialists operated by while fighting for their Independence from England. It was not a central authority and the "Continental Congress" had to seek agreement from the other states to first declare war on England, then, providing support towards the fighters.
If it worked well, why hasn't it lasted?
Nothing good or bad lasts forever in this physical realm, thats just reality. If the true question is what has been the best benefits from the two types I pointed out and why, then I would answer that it would be the stateless society, yet, it would have to be modified to fit the current times; the free market approach would be the best place to start towards that IMHO.
If it's better, then where is it now?
America after the War for Independence has been a boiling pot to experiment with such political "systems" that the proponents tout as being the best. From flat out "communism" in the truest sense in the form of communities geared towards that to "socialistic" communities. Other ones would be based on free-market capitalist principles and mutually beneficial agreements. I say we have the latter in our everyday lives when we interact with people we personally know. We have the former in terms of the use of "politics" to force our neighbor to pay for things they are morally opposed to because "well by god he is just wrong; regardless of his beliefs". That mindset is what has operated in opposition to the "Bill of Rights" and has led us to almost a "totalitarian State".
It seems to me that everyone personally has an ideal "utopia" and what they think is what "should be how people live" but, what this says to me is "one man's utopia is another's dystopia."
In primitive settlements there is relative anarchy, and their society is much better than ours. Slums such as Dharavi, labelled 'slums of hope' are anarchistic societies, and crime is almost non-existent. Anarchy isn't the complete chaos doom and gloom some think it to be, as truthfully we are in a state of anarchy. Laws only have the power of the related establishment behind them, and are not consistent. if one should amass enough power to be more powerful than the establishment of the area- see trans-national corporations, laws will not apply to them. Okhite!
From my research, some slums look like nice places to live in, apart from the open sewers. I suppose primitive settlements are tribal rather than anarchistic, close but not quite- I'll give. Inconsistent laws, such as the age of buying alcohol: no age, 16, 18, 21, illegal? Do you obey laws just because they are there, are they the only thing that stops you from harming people?
Inconsistent laws, such as the age of buying alcohol: no age, 16, 18, 21, illegal? Do you obey laws just because they are there, are they the only thing that stops you from harming people?
The importance of laws is that they are a codified statement of consequences. Some laws are inconsistent from place to place or from time to time. That's not so important depending on whether or not they are justified in the context of the place or time.
I obey laws that I agree with because they are good. I obey laws that I disagree with because they are enforced. Laws against inter-racial marriage were terrible. Through a civil process those bad laws were removed. Operating within a standardized objective process is an appropriate means to deal with bad laws. Throwing out law itself is no solution. Making laws unenforceable is no solution. Making laws enforceable by anybody's subjective whim is no solution.
I understand international business operations. Take a look at Estonia, Taiwan, or Singapore. These are very small countries that are very business friendly. People there don't get trampled on, they prosper. They prosper because laws are upheld, and yet business still goes there. Countries where people are exploited are not the result of business buying favor, they are the result of unenforced or non-existent law.
The only examples I can think of are the anarchist communes in Spain, and the Paris commune. Neither lasted very long, or introduced much innovation, but everyone got something to eat.
I will assume from your answer that a system works well if everyone eats, and that it didn't last because it didn't bring innovation. Is that correct?
Were these various communes within the national borders of France or Spain respectively? If so, then these communes don't really qualify as anarchic since national defense is covered by a state.
Anarchy is temporary thing. Its something we resort to when the ruling body needs to be overthrown. If you are content with your current ruling body then I guess anarchy isn't necessary to worry about.
Just a question... Do "primitive" indigenous societies count? Like the people of the Amazon rainforest, the Aborigines and any hunter-gatherer society in general?
Well I don't know much about these societies have 'elders' that sort of guide and give 'wisdom', things like that. They may even have rules for how to behave in their surrounding nature, but I think it's fair to say that a good portion of them, atleast the smaller of ones, don't have a government in the in any reasonable use of the term. Then again I don't know much of anything about these societies.
However, isn't it true though, that for any sufficiently small community of people, power is almost completely decentralized?
If you are correct, and it does work to the benefit of people on a small scale, is it because the larger the group the less inclination toward solidarity (in thought, ethics, etc)?
That's probably one aspect of it, but I think this consequence can be derived from another quality of small societies. As an average individual I have more power in a small society than I have in a larger one. Therefore, my own impact on culture is larger. Also the consequences will hit me harder, and it would indeed be harder to get away with, if I were to exploit my community. That is the society will halter if I don't work, and lack this lack of productivity will hit myself hard - in other words, my lack of participation will damage myself directly and in a much more severe way than it would in a larger society. Also, there's also much greater trust issues at play here.
I think that the combination of empowerment of the individual and self interest in cooperation makes anarchy a viable possibility for small societies. Maybe there's a hidden assumption my part here, self interest in cooperation probably only arises if the society is disconnected from larger societies, i.e. if they are in the wild.
There have been many attempts at anarchism throughout history, including in communities within the United States from time to time, but ultimately all of them have failed, although there are a large number of reasons why each attempt has failed, ranging from lack of a military, to lack of funding, to (and I swear to god I'm not making this up) a division between a community over whether skinny dipping should be allowed in public. Each community has failed, though, even though there are a large variety of causes as to why.
I don't think that an Anarchic society operating within the borders of a non-anarchic nation should be considered fully anarchic. This is because national defense is one of the arguments against such a society and communes within a country don't have to concern themselves.
I know there are several anarchists on this site. Where is the defense of your views guys?
So, if there is a small group of people who have pooled their money and bought some land, then they are self-reliant and self-sufficient, are they still obligated to pay for the local "law enforcement" through "taxes"? If they are protecting themselves and not expecting any outside help, are they still morally obligated to pay for it even if they do not want it? (And I do know of such people down in Texas who recently, like in the past two years or so, did this.)
I think that income and property taxes are immoral. If we didn't have them then those people would not owe anything, but they would be free riders which is wrong. Since we do have those things, and the commune resides within a larger national border; you can see how they wouldn't have to worry about other large invading nations, the country they live in would handle that. They may have to worry about the nation in which their commune resides coming in and shutting them down, which is still a national security problem when they can't stop it.
The only way for an anarchic society to actually be anarchic would be to leave a nation whose borders are protected by others. There are still islands in international waters.
I think that income and property taxes are immoral. If we didn't have them then those people would not owe anything, but they would be free riders which is wrong.
How would they be "free riders" if they are self-sufficient and independent? They own the property they live on, they do not recieve welfare, but help each other out. That is a mischaracterization. They are an example of some folks attempting to live their own lives free from interference. It does not mean it is perfect, but I have yet to hear anything that is. It is true that "free-riding" is wrong, but who exactly are they free riding off of?
Since we do have those things, and the commune resides within a larger national border; you can see how they wouldn't have to worry about other large invading nations, the country they live in would handle that
This begs a few questions: who can actually make a valid claim on property? Is that "nation" doing anything with the land those folks live on? Does that "nation" and its borders exist anywhere besides on paper? In reality, isn’t it an actual living human being that has a rightful claim to property? The concept of property has been debated for years, yet, it seems most
When you speak of "invading nations" I take you mean people from some other geographic location on the planet who act as agents for their "ruling body" a.k.a. government. The one that is closest to those folks is Mexico and has a massive amount of people crossing, with many who commit actual crimes (with an actual victim) such as murder, then, run back across the "border" to get away. There is government propaganda there that encourages this "unofficial" invasion and they refuse extradition because of the death penalty here.
So, where is the protection? I find it interesting that after 9/11 the current President did not close our borders with all of our military personnel that had been in the states at that time. Then, bring some others back from abroad, as well. Is that really "national defense"? Yeah, they have handled it so well. I am not convinced and this still does not give weight to what would be a "disqualifying factor", according to you, as to what is an "anarchic society".
They may have to worry about the nation in which their commune resides coming in and shutting them down, which is still a national security problem when they can't stop it.
But what if they do try to stop it, would they be wrong to do so? It was attempted once before, approximately 150 years ago.
The only way for an anarchic society to actually be anarchic would be to leave a nation whose borders are protected by others. There are still islands in international waters.
If someone does not want that protection because they do not believe it is protecting them, why should they be obligated to pay for it, especially if they did not agree to it themselves?
It is akin to me coming into your house, demanding you give me money to protect you, telling you what you can and can’t do, then, telling you that if you do not like it you can always leave. That is a crime called extortion because it is wrong, but apparently you are okay with that?
How would they be "free riders" if they are self-sufficient and independent?
They are not independent, this is my point. When other people are protecting the borders that you live within, you are not independently protecting yourself. If you aren't helping to pay them, but your neighbors are, then you are a free rider.
'Do' its borders exist anywhere besides on paper?
Borders are a concept. Do words exist outside of vibrations in your throat or scribbles on paper?
So, where is the protection?
While we can argue over the effectiveness of the military, imagine if the military was gone tomorrow. Then borders really would only be on paper and any anarchist commune would no longer be a free rider.
Referring to a nation moving in on a compound you said But what if they do try to stop it, would they be wrong to do so? It was attempted once before, approximately 150 years ago.
The point is they wouldn't be able to stop it, Anarchy would't work. And the Civil war isn't on the same topic as this. They were not Anarchic. Additionally, they had no moral high ground. The right to infringe rights is not a right.
If someone does not want that protection because they do not believe it is protecting them, why should they be obligated to pay for it, especially if they did not agree to it themselves?
Because they can believe whatever they want but they are in fact protected and can in fact leave.
It is akin to me coming into your house, demanding you give me money to protect you, telling you what you can and can’t do, then, telling you that if you do not like it you can always leave.
Imagine a voluntary commune where everyone helps man the wall to provide for common defense. One guy in the middle of town says I don't want to man the wall but I think I'll stay here where I am protected. HE is just like the free riding Anarchist commune within a nations borders.
Imagine a voluntary commune where everyone helps man the wall to provide for common defense. One guy in the middle of town says I don't want to man the wall but I think I'll stay here where I am protected. HE is just like the free riding Anarchist commune within a nations borders.
Um, no because in your scenario it is a voluntary commune so following that he cannot be forced to provide "common defense" that is forced servitude i.e. slavery. However, those who step up and man the walls because there is beyond a reasonable doubt an imminent threat from aggressors, can persuade and convince him to provide them with some food instead so they can continue to watch. The self-preservation instinct is going to kick in under those circumstances and it will be fight or flight. If this guy is refusing to "man the walls" because he is afraid and he refuses to take part in anything, hiding his cowardly ass in his house, well, he is a sorry person indeed, but in all likelihood he would leave on his own free-will.
If you follow your "free-rider" argument using the "national borders" as evidence then, under your brand of "protection" Mexico could station troops along the border and say "we are 'protecting you' so you must pay us". Sorry but that falls on its face because that is extortion.
I would like to clarify my earlier forced servitude statement. I will use the possible conversation that may take place in such a situation to show what could be done with someone who is refusing to have anything to do with defense and refuses to leave.
So, the community of people following the voluntary principles of their chosen lifestyle knows that there is a gang of some sort on a rampage and hitting their neighbors. They have solid information from some survivors and refugees coming to them and giving eyewitness accounts of this threat. Furthermore, they had sent out a "recon" team to confirm and they come back with a detailed report. They know the numbers, the activity, the last place spotted and moving towards the village, and they know the type of weaponry. It becomes clear that the odds are in the village favor if all members who are able take defensive measures and fight.
Our objector, known as George, has refused to participate claiming it is against the "non-aggression" principle or something. One member fighting, called Joe, contends with him and says "We need every gun we can get."
"I do not believe in them. I won't fight and you can't make Me." is the response from George.
"No, I can't, but you do not have to stay, either."
"But I am part of the village!" George protests, then, "And if I leave I might be killed! I have a 'right' to my life. You must protect me! I refuse to leave."
"All of what you said is true, except for one; I do not have to protect you. No one can guarantee your protection and if you are not willing to defend your life then, who can say you did not deserve what you get. Also, how do you think you will achieve forcing ME and anyone else here, to protect your life? We are not interested in your life. Each of us are acting in the interest of our own self-preservation and agreeing to cooperate with each other to achieve that goal. That means we have to watch each other’s back because if one guy is killed that makes another vulnerable.
Joe pauses, and then says, "If we should fail in repelling attack and our line is over run, what are you going to do then? Die?! Because you refuse to fight?! You will have to do one of two things, either fight or run. And by that point you could find yourself trying to fend off 20 aggressors’ intent on taking your life. At least if you step up now you have a better chance at surviving than if you continue to refuse."
"Well," George says, "that is just your opinion and I could just give myself up. You don’t know what might happen. They might take care of me and it could be someone who will protect me.”
“That may be, but they might have use for you and once you are no longer useful, then, they will get rid of you. Why not, if that is the risk you are willing to take, leave here now and go ask them to make you their servant, saving you the trouble later? I mean what is the difference, huh?
“Well, you do what you want, but I am done arguing. If we manage to fend them off, then, we can settle this later. We have things to tend to and little time to do it. I have three people who want to fight, but have never fired a gun and I agreed to teach them.” With that Joe turns to walk away, but stops and faces him when George says, “WAIT! I see your point, but I know nothing about how to shoot. I am afraid that I would be of no use fighting, unless, you can show me too?”
“I would be willing to do that, but if you would rather we have other things that can be done to strengthen and support those of us doing the fighting. So, you will be able to help if you have changed your mind. We would love to have you and as I said we need everybody that we can get because the odds are barely even and that is just in numbers not weapons. Our firepower is capable but, it has its limits. Anyway, the first shooting lesson is in five minutes by the debris pit. I will see you there.”
I thought I might add that in there too show what it might look like in reality. The discussion is concerning the “free-rider” problem and I am not giving an excuse to such a person. I guess, besides an exercise in creative story writing, I thought this would be a proper way of how to go about it.
Now, there are a variety of ways depending on the circumstance. The opposing view is coming from the perception of external threats from outside a ‘nation’s borders’, and that is understandable. Yet, those who claim to be “protecting us” here the U.S.A do so in a fashion that is not consistent with what true protection is. The line becomes blurred when a governmental body has, at its disposal a standing military. And what appears to be ‘protection’ is not actually the case if it has created enemies to fight, either through incompetent foreign policies and execution of such or is intentionally done.
When you have real dire circumstances on the personal level, dealing with a free-rider entails leaving them too their own demise that they create due to their own unwillingness to do what is required to ensure self-preservation.
If a person is limited as to what they can do towards that then, it is appropriate to find someone and offer a trade in exchange for providing protection and defending them. But, this does not apply to others who did not make such an arrangement and it would not be right to make that person pay for something they did not agree to. Furthermore, if the person providing protection is acting wrongfully then, it would be within the rights of the protected (the person who did make the agreement) to dissolve the arrangement and find other options.
To conclude, I believe that people naturally want to feel safe and comfortable. They do not want harm done to themselves or their family. I feel the same way, but I do not expect anyone else to take care of that for me. As I see it that would not be right unless I ask and they agree voluntarily; and this can really only take place in person, face to face. Outside of that, it becomes complicated and fuzzy if that “protection” is provided without a say so from those being protected. Some government sends troops of to a foreign land in the name of ‘national defense’ and there is in fact no one aggressing there, that would contradict what they there ‘citizens’ and show them for what they truly are; criminals. They have to keep that illusion going to legitimize their positions of office that the citizen believes they fulfill. That sounds contrary to the principles of what our ‘founding fathers’ began here.
he cannot be forced to provide "common defense" that is forced servitude i.e. slavery
By not contributing to the common defense the man can live a secure existence because of the labor of those who man the wall. Who is enslaving whom?
those who step up and man the walls because there is beyond a reasonable doubt an imminent threat from aggressors, can persuade and convince him to provide them with some food instead so they can continue to watch
The free rider, who is not on the wall, doesn’t see what they see from the wall. He is not convinced that there is a threat. This is a bigger problem in a bigger society. As evidence, people in a commune within a nation’s borders will say that there is no threat, that they are being coerced, and that they will handle it all themselves. It’s a comfortable position to take from inside the walls.
Mexico could station troops along the border and say "we are 'protecting you' so you must pay us"
Borders are shared, but threats only go one way. Protecting a border is always protection from the outside. When border troops keep people in, it is a prison society.
When other people are protecting the borders that you live within, you are not independently protecting yourself. If you aren't helping to pay them, but your neighbors are, then you are a free rider.
Follow the logic to the end and no one can own any property.
What I am gathering from your argument looks something like this:
Two people own land next to each going north to south: like person A who has land that they own and live on and their neighbor, person B owns their property that they live on next to A to the south. Then, person B can claim that if his property is between person A’s southern border and the people of Zland, then, person A is being protected from possible invasion from the zlanders and should have to make “payment” to person B to avoid being a “free-rider” off of person B. Person B’s property is between person A’s property and Zland, therefore, A must make payment or he is guilty of free-riding off of person B.
Essentially, that is what you seem to be arguing.
Let's take it further: say person C is next to both A & B, to the east and he makes an agreement with B to let him know about any aggression coming from the Zland, but B was not interested in the activity to the south from Zland, so, he argues that if he puts time and effort into observing the zlanders' then, C should provide maybe some equipment to do so, given that B was not prepared to focus that much attention and he does not have everything needed to do it. So C agrees to that and provides that equipment and as payment agrees to work B's land when he is patrolling that border. But A did not make such an agreement and does not find it necessary to receive that information. Would A fall into your notion of a "free-rider" then?
It might behoove A to consider it, but A doesn't give it another thought. A has enough weapons and the ability to use them that he is not really concerned. So, does this still make him a "free-rider" or a parasite of B & C?
The point is they wouldn't be able to stop it, Anarchy would't work.
This does not disprove the "anarchist argument" in favor of a "stateless society" and voluntary interaction. And I asked if they would be wrong to resist?
And the Civil war isn't on the same topic as this.
Maybe so, but remember they were part of states who had seceded and therefore saw the Federal soldiers as foreign invaders. Furthermore, the majority of the "rebel fighters" were hardscrabble farmers who were standing up for their rights, those who were fighting to protect hearth and home.
They were not Anarchic.
But what in your book qualifies, then? What is your understanding of the "anarchic society"?
Additionally, they had no moral high ground. The right to infringe rights is not a right.
They didn't? It was not slavery that the fight was over. That is bunk; it was "states rights" in terms of the right to secede if they felt that the federal government was acting outside of the constitution.
Because they can believe whatever they want but they are in fact protected and can in fact leave.
Well, then, I do not see how anyone can possibly own any property. In fact, if what you are saying is true, you cannot possibly have the right of self-defense because you are already provided protection and your "protectors" get to call the shots.
I believe you have some serious contradictions in your position.
Follow the logic to the end and no one can own any property.
What I am gathering from your argument looks something like this:
Two people own land next to each going north to south: like person A who has land that they own and live on and their neighbor, person B owns their property that they live on next to A to the south. Then, person B can claim that if his property is between person A’s southern border and the people of Zland, then, person A is being protected from possible invasion from the zlanders and should have to make “payment” to person B to avoid being a “free-rider” off of person B. Person B’s property is between person A’s property and Zland, therefore, A must make payment or he is guilty of free-riding off of person B.
Your example would only be the case in a state of nature, not a nation with border, but in Anarchy where property rights actually ultimately don’t exist.
Your example would only be the case in a state of nature, not a nation with border, but in Anarchy where property rights actually ultimately don’t exist.
I can address your "state of nature" point further if you want.
However, before I do so, my scenario broke it down to the reality of what you are implying and you did not answer the question; would person A fall into your notion of a "free-rider"?
Your scenario removed the context of nations and borders, which is where free-riding occurs. Context dropping is fallacious.
I showed what you were describing. I asked the question pertaining to a person's position such as person A in the scenario. There were borders between each person's property and you never qualified what exactly defines a 'nation'. The 'anarchic society' could just as well be a 'nation' if they described themselves as such.
I put it into context and asked the question which you refuse to answer.
An 'authoritarian State' does more to create the climate for the 'free-rider' then, an 'anarchic society' would. Those you call 'government' do nothing in the way of producing anything; they redistribute wealth, by taking it from one and giving it to another.
The example I gave is simply a group of people attempting to live in accordance with self-sufficiency and self-reliance; something this country was built upon.
The 'anarchic society' could just as well be a 'nation' if they described themselves as such.
Nations have borders for one thing. The example of an anarchic society with a free rider in the middle of town had borders, it could be called a nation at some point. Your example has no borders and so, is out of context. That being said, Canada is not free riding on the US because we absorb the drug lord violence.
An 'authoritarian State' does more to create the climate for the 'free-rider' then, an 'anarchic society' would
Agreed. Arguing for government is not the same as agreeing with an "authoritarian state", though anarchists like to think they are the same thing.
Nations have borders for one thing. The example of an anarchic society with a free rider in the middle of town had borders, it could be called a nation at some point. Your example has no borders and so, is out of context. That being said, Canada is not free riding on the US because we absorb the drug lord violence.
Read the scenario again; each person had property and that property had a border. I placed it into context with the example.
If you break it all the way down you are describing private property that someone has a valid claim to and lives on. My statement still holds and you still have not answered the question in my scenario pertaining to person 'A'.
I am not talking about my story, but the first scenario that I laid out.
I gave a reference for the definition of what a 'nation' is. I do not believe that someone is right to come along and seize property from someone else in the name of 'the nation' or 'State' or 'government' but, that happens quite often. You can have the use of your property diminished or even seized if the EPA declares it to be a wetland, for example.
Agreed. Arguing for government is not the same as agreeing with an "authoritarian state", though anarchists like to think they are the same thing.
Maybe because that is what they are seeing from 'government'. Many current self-proclaimed 'anarchists' are people who are fed up with legitimized actions by agents of so-called 'government' and many of them recognize that the 'laws' that we have are not actual laws but, more a mockery of such. Many of these agents believe they are exempt from the 'law'.
The link below is just one of many examples; pay close attention to what is said by the officers but, particularly the supervisor at between the 3-4 minute mark. Its 03:40 to be exact:
Soldier arrested for 'rudely displaying' his firearm
Maybe so, but remember they were part of states who had seceded and therefore saw the Federal soldiers as foreign invaders.
The issues behind the war were economic sanctions on the South, the South’s desire to secede, and slavery. The economic sanctions were because of the southern slavery policy, the presumed right to secede was based on a states’ presumed right to maintain slavery by law. Slavery itself was the crux of every matter. They said they were fighting for state’s rights. The right to take away rights (of black people) is not a right. The various states of the south were not respecters of individual rights, but rather the state’s rights.
But what in your book qualifies, then? What is your understanding of the "anarchic society"?
An anarchic society would have to be in a state of nature. That is to say they wouldn’t qualify as anarchic if they exist within an organized nation of laws. Any societal benefits would need to come from within their own anarchic society. This isn’t the case when they exist within national borders.
They didn't? It was not slavery that the fight was over.
Convenient opinions rarely match reality.
Well, then, I do not see how anyone can possibly own any property. In fact, if what you are saying is true, you cannot possibly have the right of self-defense because you are already provided protection and your "protectors" get to call the shots.
Protected borders (the military), and protected streets (police), have nothing to do with one’s right to use force in self-defense. No one can cover self-defense except for one’s self.
The police and the courts call the shots when it comes to retribution, or the use of force in response. This is appropriate.
I believe you have some serious contradictions in your position.
The issues behind the war were economic sanctions on the South, the South’s desire to secede, and slavery. The economic sanctions were because of the southern slavery policy, the presumed right to secede was based on a states’ presumed right to maintain slavery by law.
You forget that the Underground Railroad was running throughout the south and the north for about 20-30 years before the War, with many of those who helped facing prison terms or even death if caught helping ‘slaves’ escape.
You also, forget the Fugitive Slave Act that was passed by the Federal government that helped to put the icing on the cake.
Slavery itself was the crux of every matter. They said they were fighting for state’s rights. The right to take away rights (of black people) is not a right. The various states of the south were not respecters of individual rights, but rather the state’s rights.
The Constitution covered the holders of slaves, but the government could have done just as well coming to bat for states, such as Wisconsin, who tried to protect those seeking refuge. The north did not have any higher moral ground than the south. Those who fought on the southern side were primarily farmers who did not own slaves; they were protecting hearth and home from what they saw as a foreign invading force.
The right to take away rights (of black people) is not a right.
No one said it was; I pointed to this because the states were attempting to secede according to what they thought was their right to do. Some Northern states talked of it, too. There were many problems that were a part of the ‘crux of the matter’ not just slavery.
Convenient opinions rarely match reality.
I agree and suggest you take a look at yours concerning the reality of that situation.
An anarchic society would have to be in a state of nature.
I do not see why that would be the case and as I pointed out in my argument I posted there have been many degrees of ‘stateless societies’ throughout history that worked for some time.
That is to say they wouldn’t qualify as anarchic if they exist within an organized nation of laws. Any societal benefits would need to come from within their own anarchic society. This isn’t the case when they exist within national borders.
This begs the question, what is a ‘nation’? You are trying to place everyone living in a certain area under an umbrella of a ‘nation’ but, this implies that no one could possibly have any claim to private property because ‘The State’ would have rights to it.
You also, assume that an ‘anarchic society’ would not have laws that they would conduct themselves accordingly. I believe this to be a false assumption because people will tend to look for a peaceful resolution over bloodshed.
Protected borders (the military), and protected streets (police), have nothing to do with one’s right to use force in self-defense. No one can cover self-defense except for one’s self.
That is not true at all; a private person can come to another’s aid and defense. A person could be hired to provide such protection if asked. Neither police officer nor serviceman has any ‘special rights’ above any other Individual human. The military in this country (U.S.) is not on the borders; that did not happen, unless you count sending unarmed national guardsmen to the border. As for police protecting the streets, that depends on what area of the country we are talking about; and a neighborhood watch can do just as well.
The police and the courts call the shots when it comes to retribution, or the use of force in response. This is appropriate.
No, it is not appropriate, especially if no has the right to initiate the use of force to begin with. What you describe is a police state. If no one has such a right, then, that which does not exist to begin with cannot be given.
As for the use of force in response, any person does this when using defensive force to stop an attack. So, which is it, either we have the right to self-defense or we do not?
The police and courts serve the purpose of investigation after the fact. The jury decides if wrongdoing took place and the person on trial is innocent until proven guilty, beyond all reasonable doubt. Any of these functions can still be provided for in the ‘private sector’ or the free market that the voluntaryist favors. It does not show why an ‘anarchic’ society could not function.
This begs the question, what is a ‘nation’? You are trying to place everyone living in a certain area under an umbrella of a ‘nation’ but, this implies that no one could possibly have any claim to private property because ‘The State’ would have rights to it
Everyone being in a geographic location under a common rule of law, in no way requires that their property is really that of the state in which they live.
You also, assume that an ‘anarchic society’ would not have laws that they would conduct themselves accordingly.
"Rule of law" is not "without rule". For laws to actually exist they must be defined and enforceable.
That is not true at all; a private person can come to another’s aid and defense.
If you help someone else, you are not engaged in self defense. By the very nature of the word, self defense must be done by ones self.
I believe this to be a false assumption because people will tend to look for a peaceful resolution over bloodshed.
In the worst parts of the inner cities where police won't go (laws aren't enforceable), many people resolve things peacefully, and many people don't.
No, it is not appropriate, especially if no has the right to initiate the use of force to begin with. What you describe is a police state. If no one has such a right, then, that which does not exist to begin with cannot be given.
No one has the right to initiate the use of force, which is exactly why what I describe IS appropriate and is NOT a police state. Everyone has the right to use force in response, but when there is a rational defined method through which to exercise that right, it is wrong to go about exacting justice in whatever subjective way an individual sees fit.
Self-defense is always immediate. Using force in response is always after the fact.
Any of these functions can still be provided for in the ‘private sector’ or the free market that the voluntaryist favors.
Hiring a firm to exact justice in whatever subjective way they see fit would not be a good idea. The free market can handle a lot of things, but not everything.
No one has the right to initiate the use of force, which is exactly why what I describe IS appropriate and is NOT a police state.
It does describe a police state if they call the shots. That is a police state. No one can really hold the monopoly on the use of force because it becomes the initiation of violence (misuse of force) and to what recourse would someone have in such a situation.
Everyone has the right to use force in response, but when there is a rational defined method through which to exercise that right, it is wrong to go about exacting justice in whatever subjective way an individual sees fit.
A "rational defined method" is fine until it becomes altered. No, it is not wrong to use force in response because that is self-defense; and that sounds a subjective in itself.
Self-defense is always immediate. Using force in response is always after the fact.
I am not talking about revenge "where if you kill my son then, I kill yours" but, instead I go after you, the one who did the killing. The method you describe is simply another option a person can use that is preferable to use then one going after the person, personally.
The 'Vigilante Justice' that was sometimes used on the frontier was certainly not perfect, but the current 'Justice system' we have now is not much better.
there have been many degrees of ‘stateless societies’ throughout history that worked for some time
"stateless" is the absence of a state right? How can there be degrees of an absence? If some have more "absence of state" than others, than there are degrees of state, not anarchy.
At the beginning I want to talk about anarchy. Some people think that anarchy is chaos. Of course most of us know that they are wrong. Yes in anarchistic society person can does anything what he wants, but unless he interferes in another’s live. So in fact anarchy is apogee of freedom in my opinion. And now I start to talk about when that kind of society was.
I think humanity never had real anarchy. Doesn’t matter about which period of human evolution we will talk. I’m sure that when we were as monkeys (if modern evolution theory is true) we should have a leader of a humans’ pack. However in anarchistic society shouldn’t be a leader or leaders.
Scientists say that man is herd animal. We talk about individual or about freedom, but in fact a group of people listen a person who said something and the group agrees with him. So where is individualism? Here we have manipulating again. That’s also reason why humanity never had and never will have anarchy.
Let’s just imagine that humanity has the real anarchy, real freedom without any government and any countries. All people are friends to each other. I’m sure that in result science, technology and many other things wouldn’t be developing.
In the end I want to remind you that anarchy is mother of order. I strongly believe that it is true. Someone should control that a man didn’t break the rules of anarchy. So if someone controls anarchy is end. And I say again we never had anarchy and never will have it.
However in anarchistic society shouldn’t be a leader or leaders.
As I understand it there is a difference between a leader and a ruler and an "anarchistic society" or Voluntary society, as it is called by some, would show the difference because there could be no ruler over anyone external to themselves, bossing people around and telling them what to do or not do with their life.
A leader is someone who leads by an example of what seems to be the best thing to do and they do not ask anyone to do something that they themselves are not willing to do.
Basically, the whole discussion can be summed up to whether an Individual human being will accept and act according to his or her own autonomy. They will either take care of themselves, once adulthood is achieved or they will expect someone else to take care of them; the former tends toward leading to a more productive and fulfilling life, while the latter is counterproductive to that just end and leads to becoming a parasitic human. Therefore, those who wish to dominate over others will be attracted to the power that the created perception a ruler or rulers could have over those who wish to have someone else do their thinking for them.
You spoke of manipulation and there are those who do so, but to say humanity will never achieve a way of life embracing the principles of a truly autonomous life ignores what had been started in America in the 1770's, then, progressed further despite the central ruling class known as the US federal government operating in contradiction of that recognized fact of the autonomous Individual Human being.
Scientists say that man is herd animal.
I have not seen evidence that this is the case, however, I think dominators seek to separate those they wish to use from reality because then, they can herd them like animals. Yet, I do not believe this is anything, but an indoctrinated conditioning and removal of necessary tools for a person to learn how to think for themselves, hence destroying the autonomous human being.
Let’s just imagine that humanity has the real anarchy, real freedom without any government and any countries. All people are friends to each other. I’m sure that in result science, technology and many other things wouldn’t be developing.
That does not seem very accurate because people having friendships may tend toward business creation with innovation and productivity. Again, one only has to look at American history and take note of those who did these things.
However, that is not to say there will not be conflict; that could not possibly disappear because each person is different with their own autonomy that they operate from and personalities clash. Yet, no one who has any sense wants to have violent conflict and will seek the most peaceful solutions. This is where the notion of the word 'government' came to be understood and sought as practicable.