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Yes, a vegetarian diet is the best choice -- assuming "best" accounts for moral superiority.
Morality is subjective. The notion that there can be a superiour morality is the same as the notion that there can be a superiour colour, flavour, artwork, etc.
Morality based on desirability: a variety of our food animals may be mistreated and this is frequently criticised, however it is not intrinsic to raising animals for food. The pain involved in the animal's death is effectively ruled out by certain practices like Kashrut and Halal. This may be argued as desirable.
It is also possible to argue that it is undesirable to eat meat because animals are higher on the food chain and therefore more expensive to produce a product from. This is true, however the objection's worthwhile pursuit is proportional to the population and farming methods. A small population with efficient tools will not find raising livestock to be overly taxing in both market cost and environmental cost.
It is wrong to inflict pain on a sentient being.
Morality, again, is subjective.
Morality based on rationality would argue that pain is an intrinsic, and necessary, part of life. It would also be argued that animals raised for food are not required to be abused.
That said:
It is morally wrong to use trivial matters such as diet as an excuse to justify smug or morally superiour behaviour.
The notion that there can be a superiour morality is the same as the notion that there can be a superiour colour, flavour, artwork, etc.
If you don't think there can be a superior flavor then I'll trade you that ice cream for this pile of dog shit.
The pain involved in the animal's death is effectively ruled out by certain practices like Kashrut and Halal.
I seriously doubt those practices result in zero pain. Regardless, the vast majority of meat that people consume is not obtained through such methods.
Morality based on rationality would argue that pain is an intrinsic, and necessary, part of life.
No it wouldn't. Pain is unnecessary. Even if it is necessary, I'm sure you will agree that it ought to be minimized. Do you not avoid it when you can?
It is morally wrong to use trivial matters such as diet as an excuse to justify smug or morally superiour behaviour.
'I am as immaculate as baby Jesus. I eat meat. This guy is telling me that eating meat is wrong. But if that were true it would imply that I'm not the glimmering avatar I imagine myself to be. That obviously cannot be the case, therefore this guy must be wrong. Perhaps even intentionally wrong. Insidious even! Why I ought to give this dirtball a piece of my mind.'
If you don't think there can be a superior flavor then I'll trade you that ice cream for this pile of dog shit.
Subjective things cannot be superiour to each other.
I seriously doubt those practices result in zero pain. Regardless, the vast majority of meat that people consume is not obtained through such methods.
I checked again and apparently a new study cast the previous study I read into doubt. In any case, it is acknowledged that stunning an animal prior to slaughtering it is humane as it ends the animal's ability to feel pain.
No it wouldn't. Pain is unnecessary. Even if it is necessary, I'm sure you will agree that it ought to be minimized. Do you not avoid it when you can?
Pain is simply a tool used to prevent harmful actions. It is an information system for us, and without it we would break bones, chew our lips, burn ourselves, overheat, freeze, wear our bodies out from not shifting positions while stationary, etc.
'I am as immaculate as baby Jesus. I eat meat. This guy is telling me that eating meat is wrong. But if that were true it would imply that I'm not the glimmering avatar I imagine myself to be. That obviously cannot be the case, therefore this guy must be wrong. Perhaps even intentionally wrong. Insidious even! Why I ought to give this dirtball a piece of my mind.'
Diet is a trivial matter that has little bearing on other aspects of your morality.
If you need proof, one may observe that PETA and ALF are full of activists who have no issues with vandalism, sabotage, and throwing paint on people despite supposedly enjoying the high moral ground.
Also, the widely known fact that Adolf Hitler was vegetarian.
Same problem, different population size. ... Subjective things cannot be superiour to each other.
{Insert explanation of preference utilitarianism here.}
Are you really going to argue there's no such thing as right and wrong?
In any case, it is acknowledged that stunning an animal prior to slaughtering it is humane as it ends the animal's ability to feel pain.
Yes, yes. If we give animals good quality of life and kill them via lethal injection, then that wouldn't be a problem. It's naive to think it ever actually works that way. Power is inevitably abused. Animals can't unionize.
Pain is simply a tool used to prevent harmful actions.
This is true. I'm saying harmful actions are unnecessary.
And I really don't give a damn about PETA or Hitler in this context.
{Insert explanation of preference utilitarianism here.}
Using rationality as a basis to weigh subjective things does not make them objective, it is merely a tool for helping people make decisions.
Some aspects of reality are not black and white, this is a common problem for all of us and we each find some tool to weigh decisions in a more detached manner. This never makes us objective, however, and it never makes the solution objectively true. It only makes the solution desirable. This is why debate exists and continues to exist for many moral, artistic, cultural, and political issues. All we can ever hope to do is convince the other party that our solution is more desirable than theirs.
Are you really going to argue there's no such thing as right and wrong?
This has been my position for many years. Therefore I avoid heated moral arguments unless I know I can convince you that my point of view serves our interests in a better way, and is therefore desirable.
Yes, yes. If we give animals good quality of life and kill them via lethal injection, then that wouldn't be a problem. It's naive to think it ever actually works that way. Power is inevitably abused. Animals can't unionize.
From my reading, it turns out that most slaughterhouses would seem to stun the animal before killing it. Therefore the problem is more about combating factory farming, which anyone would agree is unhealthy and bad for the animal.
This is true. I'm saying harmful actions are unnecessary.
So you never need to sit, stand, walk, watch a display, listen to loud noise, breathe, get vaccinations and physicals, etc.?
These are all harmful in some way, and pain reminds us to stop or change position when our body has had enough.
And I really don't give a damn about PETA or Hitler in this context.
I don't either, but if you are going to argue from morality then it must be noted that apparently vegetarian morality is just a stone in a larger landscape.
Using rationality as a basis to weigh subjective things does not make them objective, it is merely a tool for helping people make decisions.
Objectivity is not important. Universality is important. We can all agree that the satisfaction of our preferences is good.
All we can ever hope to do is convince the other party that our solution is more desirable than theirs.
I agree. Morally superior = more desireable. Of course, you have to take more than your own desires into account.
This has been my position for many years.
Creepy.
From my reading, it turns out that most slaughterhouses would seem to stun the animal before killing it. Therefore the problem is more about combating factory farming, which anyone would agree is unhealthy and bad for the animal.
Meh. I have doubts that a capitalist culture could ever treat animals properly. Maybe some kind of uber-regulatory scheme could make everything work fine, but I seriously doubt it. It seems better to avoid the uncertainty, keep it simple, and just avoid meat.
So you never need to sit, stand, walk, watch a display, listen to loud noise, breathe, get vaccinations and physicals, etc.?
I've never been badly beaten. I've never suffered from a horribly painful disease. I've never starved. These facts are a testament to mankind's progress in minimizing suffering. Extrapolate to the logical extreme and you end up with virtually no suffering at all.
I don't either, but if you are going to argue from morality then it must be noted that apparently vegetarian morality is just a stone in a larger landscape.
Well, ok, but that stone is what this debate is about.
Please provide evidence that plants satisfy all needs of human bodies. I would like to believe this because I would like to refrain from meat as a moral choice but I can't support the idea scientifically. It would be at the expense of my health to forgo meat.
Please provide evidence that plants satisfy all needs of human bodies. I would like to believe this because I would like to refrain from meat as a moral choice but I can't support the idea scientifically. It would be at the expense of my health to forgo meat.
If you research sources of protein, soy contains all the necessary amino acids and is comparable to meat. The issue isn't that eating a vegan diet will harm you, instead you must learn about it because any radically changed diet may lead towards malnutrition for the neophyte.
Talk about neophytes, you're suggesting SOY as a replacement for meat? There are far more benefits to eating meat than just protein, my uneducated friend. You are superb at sounding intelligent, but your "facts" are consistently wrong, so much so that I find it too large an undertaking to correct you because you are so absolutely wrong on every issue. Soy is only popular because of propaganda. The U.S. government subsidizes soybean farmers, hence the hype. Soy is a very unhealthy staple food. It is very estrogenic. Eat soy if you want to have a shitty sex drive. I could go on and on about soy, but I won't. Here's Dr.Mercola on soy. Soy is a very deep subject, I suggest you read about it's history and usage and the reason it is so widely used today.
Talk about neophytes, you're suggesting SOY as a replacement for meat? There are far more benefits to eating meat than just protein, my uneducated friend.
Like? Speaking for dietary reasons you have your amino acids, your carbohydrates, lipids and cholesterol. There are a number of steroids and antioxidants available in foods in varying quantities but these tend to exist in the smallest quantities.
You are superb at sounding intelligent, but your "facts" are consistently wrong, so much so that I find it too large an undertaking to correct you because you are so absolutely wrong on every issue.
Soy is only popular because of propaganda. The U.S. government subsidizes soybean farmers, hence the hype.
Not in the mood for conspiracy theories. The science suggests very strongly that soy is a complete source of protein.
Soy is a very unhealthy staple food. It is very estrogenic. Eat soy if you want to have a shitty sex drive. I could go on and on about soy, but I won't.
It has contrasting studies which suggest great health benefits with some detractors. I'm not worried about it.
Here's Dr.Mercola on soy. Soy is a very deep subject, I suggest you read about it's history and usage and the reason it is so widely used today.
I find that modern science cuts down the lies and revisionism in history.
For example, I know that GMO food is safe to eat. The reason is that I have genetically modified some organisms myself, and it is one of my favourite subjects. I understand the technology, and its potential dangers.
GMO food is not harmful to the person eating it, which is the only relevant point in this context. Discussing the environmental impact of RoundUp is an entirely different topic unrelated to the fitness of soy as a protein source.
It does contain the nutritional elements, as long as the person keeps track of there diet and gets in enough protein. But that doesn't make it healthier. Following a balanced, omnivorous diet with some portions of meat also gives all the necessary nutritional elements, and it's a lot easier to get them in.
In the right quantities, meat is good for you. We evolved to eat and digest it for a reason. Unfortunately, the average American diet consists of entirely too much meat, especially red meat, and not enough of other food groups, so it's deceptively easy to say a vegetarian diet is clearly healthier. But this is not necessarily so; vegetarians who do not carefully monitor their intake of protein and other nutrients can suffer from malnutrition. It happens that people who have chosen a vegetarian diet are typically more attentive to what they consume, making them, on average, healthier than someone who hasn't made any specific choices about their eating.
A diet philosophy is only as good as the effort one is willing to put into it. Someone who eats meat regularly but sparingly, limits oils and sugars, and ensures they eat enough of the other food groups is probably going to be comparably healthy to a vegetarian or vegan with the same commitment to eating well.
The reason was that any kind of food was scarce. Now all the nutrients found in meat can easily be obtained from alternative sources, so that reason is no longer valid.
Regardless of why we began to eat meat, our bodies are adjusted to it; it is a part of our natural diet. Meat is still the most easily obtainable and digestible source of complete proteins, iron, and other vitamins. You can balance and combine vegetarian alternatives to achieve the same results...or you can just eat lean meat in moderation.
I am providing an argument beyond 'we should eat meat because we've always done it'. If I believed a diet containing a moderate amount of meat was inherently unhealthier than vegetarianism, it would not matter to me how long we have been doing it and how natural it is. However, I do think, to an extent, what humans have eaten for a long time does indeed have a place in the discussion of what we eat today. Evolution has favored those who can get the most out of what they eat, and for a long time, that has included meat.
I included some sources that discuss why a diet that includes some meat is preferable or at the very least comparable to a pure vegetarian diet. A lot of it has to do with calorie and protein consumption; meat has more of those by volume than many other foods, and it is easier to digest than other sources of protein and other vitamins, like beans, broccoli, cabbage, etc. Plenty of people, doctors and nutritionists included, are starting to include cow's milk on this list. Remember I am not advocating that people not eat a diet composed mostly of nuts, fruits, vegetables, grains, and other animal fats.
I don't understand the point of your links. They list several high-protein foods, many of which are vegetarian. My argument is not that meat is bad for you, but that a vegetarian diet can easily meet your nutritional needs. The reasons a vegetarian diet is superior go beyond health.
I don't understand the point of your links. They list several high-protein foods, many of which are vegetarian.
In most of the links, meats top the list.
My argument is not that meat is bad for you, but that a vegetarian diet can easily meet your nutritional needs. The reasons a vegetarian diet is superior go beyond health.
I was under the impression this debate is questioning diet from a health-related perspective alone. Although I would probably still be on this side, my responses would have been different if they had encompassed morality as well.
The reason was that any kind of food was scarce. Now all the nutrients found in meat can easily be obtained from alternative sources, so that reason is no longer valid.
Not for everyone. Some of us live in villages, small towns, poverty, etc.
Not all of us enjoy access to ultra-organic, vegan, raw food, macrobiotic supermarkets with a bottomless wallet.
From what I understand, the human brain is composed largely of fats, if a person undergoes a vegetarian diet they will starve their brain of essential fat and it will slowly shrivel, making them dumber and dumber until they are just mush-heads, which is why there is such a problem with liberals and clear thinking. Furthermore, vegetarians are creating a hormonal crisis by taking in an overload of estrogenic foods and creating an unhealthy imbalance of their systems.
While a vegan diet can compare to an animal-based one nutritionally (See: link) I would argue that it cannot successfully replicate many of the flavours and textures that a lover of food might enjoy, further I would argue that the taste of certain animal-based dishes, and indeed most of the flavours we obtain from animals' meats, oils, secretions, and bones are worth saving in our culture's food preparations.
For example, in soups the most important component is the base. The base is most often a stock made using bones and marrow with vegetables. You can use only vegetables in the base but you will be missing a vital savoury component. Some cooks use demi glace in place of, or along with, the base. It isn't as simple as using soy or mushrooms for the missing savoury component, because these products have their own flavours. You are at this point trying substitution.
In gravy and sauces, a vital ingredient is the butter, lard or meat drippings (fat). If you use only a vegetable-based oil, you will be sorely disappointed with the result as compared to its animal-based equivalent (also, NEVER use margarine in a roux). The next component is either stock prepared as mentioned in the preceding paragraph, milk, or another ingredient like tomato sauce. In the vast majority of cases you will need a bone-based stock.
In sweet baked goods texture is often heavily influenced by butter, margarine may act as a substitute but it produces its own texture effect (usually chewier, or fluffier/softer). In certain goods you CANNOT substitute (anyone who has made a croissant for example knows this) because it is a matter of chemistry. Eggs are another vital ingredient that is very tricky to emulate the chemistry of by substitute, but from my experience there are some clever substitutes that may solve certain problems that eggs are required for in the dish (such as using starch, or guar gum-containing marketed substitute, to create some degree of binding). If you're making a meringue, an inferiour substitute is singed liquid marshmallow.
As a matter of meat itself, it is very difficult to emulate meat so that it doesn't taste like a substitute. This is the holy grail, as a matter of fact, for the vegan chef. For example, if you wish to emulate ground meat it isn't as difficult as a cut of steak. This is because ground meat has most of its texture stripped away, so it's merely a matter of creating firmness, savoury flavour, and the proper mouthfeel. To this end many vegan chefs have successfully emulated ground meat, which is laudible, using mushrooms, yeast and soy extracts, cereals and grains, and varieties of tofu. What hasn't been done is the full emulation of a steak or cut of meat, because for obvious reasons the texture simply cannot be replicated in a kitchen. I should add that by sheer fortune the sulfur-shelf mushroom, otherwise known as the chicken of the woods, is supposedly a very convincing substitute to poultry in taste and texture. I cannot confirm this through personal experience, as the only time I found one, it was too old and grew too high on an oak tree for me to use.
Candies are the final item I wish to mention. It is clear that one may obtain easily dark chocolate that is free of animal products, indeed only poor-quality dark chocolate has milkfat, however milk chocolate itself requires animal products, as does fudge. I am not convinced that one can easily substitute these ingredients without compromising the product. Perhaps the product most likely to suffer are truffles and other heavy cream-based candies, as the filling requires a fat that gives a silky texture and cream seems to work best for this.
Vegan is not vegetarian. Your argument is mostly a strawman.
Not, it isn't. We are talking about a vegetarian diet, which means a diet void of animal products. If you want to add eggs, butter, milk, cheese, fish, etc. to the vegetarian diet then you are simply making the issue more complicated since it is no longer about the merits of eating only vegetable products and mushrooms. I realise that some people have more complicated diets, but I don't wish to introduce a whole new series of complexities to this debate.
There's nothing wrong with a vegetarian diet, if you do it right. (I do know one girl who had to stop due to medical reasons; she was trying to eat more beans, nuts, etc. but her body wasn't taking it well.)
But there's nothing that makes it better than an omnivorous diet. Meat is okay, even good for you in proper quantities (as it is with many types of food). An only white meat diet might be good to try out. But a monitored, balanced diet with a proper quantity of meat is very healthy, and is not worse than a vegetarian diet.