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Which gives you more hope?
For Christians:
If God is omniscient, omnipotent, and omnibenevolent, then why in the world would you want to have absolute free will? If God is a good and knowledgable and powerful king who cares about you and works all things for the good of those who love Him, then why would you want to be free of His fate that He has allotted you? Is it fear that God is not good? How does free will give anyone hope, while believing in a God of love? Does it not answer all of your worries, O Christian brothers and sisters? Does it not give you joy that God will take care of you and will only do that which is best for you? Is God not only the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob but also of you, O Christian brothers and sisters? Which gives you more hope: hope in the God of the Bible or hope in yourself? Which gives you more hope?
LOL, God is for free will, if you're against it, you're against him. Is that a sacrilegious tone I'm sensing in this post? Are you, lolzors, greater than God's plans?
Any way, is there even a hope to be had in predestination? It's predestined meaning if it's good or if it's bad, it's going to happen so nothing to hope for anyway.
LOL, God is for free will, if you're against it, you're against him. Is that a sacrilegious tone I'm sensing in this post? Are you, lolzors, greater than God's plans?
I'm not sure if I am right in this or it is sarcasm working here, but is what you just said contradictory? Your first part suggests that we have free will but then the last part suggests that we don't have free will and that God is greater than all other plans.
Any way, is there even a hope to be had in predestination? It's predestined meaning if it's good or if it's bad, it's going to happen so nothing to hope for anyway.
And God is a good God; therefore, that which happens is for the best!
The Bible is compatibilistic, which means that in absolution we do not have free will and even our choices are predestined by God, but in our perceptions we have free will. I am typing right now under my own volition but that volition and the ability to type in my computer is God's predestination of everything.
So then use logic from that one good work of one man. If God has planned one good work, let us say mowing someone else's lawn for free, then what have to be in place for that person to be able to do such? Wouldn't he have to have the physical, the mental, and the economic abilities to do such?
Yeah God has planned good works. That is why I am so miserable that I want to die. Where is God when I need Him? I try to be good, but He allows this? I wish I had died months ago.
Oh my wow! You don't have free will. So God makes us do everything himself, yet when we go to hell that was our choice? No I think that was God sending us to hell. Way to make the biggest contradiction yet.
"The heart of man plans his way, but the Lord establishes his steps."
Is this quote really in a bible somewhere? How does that not establish a blatant contradiction? I really want an answer, and you, lolzors, seems to be the man to ask about God.
I have already told you. Compatibilism is what the bible teaches. Listen to what i have been telling you. That chapter in Proverbs is talking about the perceptions of humans to have free will. If you actually read that chapter it says the following: "The Lord has made everything for its purpose, / even the wicked for the day of trouble." Also it says, "All the ways of a man are pure in his own eyes, / but the Lord weighs the spirit." Please read in context.
If the wicked were made to screw up the then how is he benevolent. That's the most sadistic thing I ever heard of. It's like he's playing sims, and he keeps taking the doors away.
Read Romans 9 as I have responded to you. It answers all of the "whys" to the questions. However, as you can see, the Bible, even in that chapter you gave me, is compatibilistic.
And one more thing: why do you act surprised that the Bible says that we do not have free will in absolution when I have been telling you that very same thing for the past few posts?
Hey, I'm over my "whys". I'm sure the people who've been writing the bible for over 2000 years have an answer for every question I could think would finally be the one to shut down belief in Christianity, regardless of how often they'll come into a brick wall leading to a contradiction with another one. All my last reply was, was my new opinion of your God based off of the rules he actually made up and the information you told me. He's playing Sims with our lives, and unfortunately some of us, are his troll game, where he just kills all the characters in some ways that could be twisted if this weren't just a game to him.
My new answer when Christians ask me "Why don't you believe?" will be "'Cuz, I don't want to believe I'm one of God's little Sims chracters."
Does the potter have no right over the clay? Who are you to say back to God, "Why have you made me like this?" The wicked were specifically designed by God to be evil so that He could destroy them, which is justice, for they have still done that which is wrong, regardless as to whether or not that choice had been predetermined by God, who does not sin but allows Satan to take their hearts to a place of evil. That, then, allows His elect, under the will of the Lord, to have mercy and grace and love understood: all of His divine characteristics can be known.
My new answer when Christians ask me "Why don't you believe?" will be "'Cuz, I don't want to believe I'm one of God's little Sims chracters."
God hardens whomever He chooses to harden and He has mercy on whomever He chooses to have mercy upon.
Clay isn't a life, I don't know how that a sound comparison.
Does a mother have a right to kill her son and or lock him in a room forever?
Who are you to say back to God, "Why have you made me like this?"
Someone who didn't ask to be made. You know what I'm saying?
The wicked were specifically designed by God to be evil so that He could destroy them
You know, not making them would have been a smarter choice. Seems like he's not that all knowing to me.
which is justice, for they have still done that which is wrong
It's not really justice, if they were made to do wrong. That'd be like spanking your child for telling them to do something they're not supposed to do. That'd be like a police officer telling you to shoot him so he could arrest you. That'd be like... I don't think I should have to really explain how idiotic that is. "I made evil, to punish it" that's sadistic. No, that's downright Satanic. God is the Devil!
God, who does not sin but allows Satan to take their hearts to a place of evil
What's a bigger sin than making sin?
He made the evil, do evil, yet he's not evil. That's like saying Osama Bin Laden was not at fault since he didn't blow the buildings up, he just made others do it.
That, then, allows His elect, under the will of the Lord, to have mercy and grace and love understood
You can't overlook the bad things just because a few good things were done. That's like letting out a convicted rapist, because he doesn't litter.
God hardens whomever He chooses to harden and He has mercy on whomever He chooses to have mercy upon.
A 'my way or the highway' type of guy is he? That's what's up.
God creates people a certain way and for a certain purpose. We have still done evil or good; however, they have both been planned by God to happen for a set purpose to be carried out.
He made the evil, do evil, yet he's not evil. That's like saying Osama Bin Laden was not at fault since he didn't blow the buildings up, he just made others do it.
God did not make evil. He made the being that created evil. The fact that God is omnipotent means that He cannot be anything other than that, which means any creation would have to be that which is not fully capable of not sinning. Therefore, God created the being that was not able to not sin, Satan. God did not create evil; for evil is the lack of good, which is God.
God creates people a certain way and for a certain purpose.
I get what you're saying. He made the evil to smite them. The point you're not saying is why. I know read Romans 9 blah blah blah. What that won't say is why it's justified. If i believed in God, I'd be pretty pissed to know he made my father, my mother, my son, daughter, brother and sister, all evil on purpose (when he could have made them good) just so he could make an example out of them (when the people the example were for could have just been made good too).
We have still done evil or good; however, they have both been planned by God to happen for a set purpose to be carried out.
So Satan is God. Cuz only Satan can do evil.
God did not make evil.
So the evil just was there, why can't we have just been there?
He made the being that created evil.
Why not make it without evil?
The fact that God is omnipotent means that He cannot be anything other than that
He can, and can not at the same time. Illusion.
which means any creation would have to be that which is not fully capable of not sinning.
Yea, but an omnipotent person made them flawed, so he's not perfect.
Therefore, God created the being that was not able to not sin, Satan.
Then how did it sin?
God did not create evil; for evil is the lack of good, which is God
Then he should put some 'God' in everyone. He didn't because, he likes to play Sims games with everybody's lives. I mean if there wasn't something for him to smite, what would we even need him for?
Romans 9 says the "why". It says that God has a justified right over His creations to do whatever He pleases with them; all things are done under his knowledge and power for a purpose, though He has done no wrong Himself.
Quite true, if your god doesn't exist, then you've only deceived yourself and others, and you will ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.'
For if you are not right, you are left or wrong, and if you're the only one left, do you think your god will save you?
God has never saved anyone. That's why everyone in the past is dead forever. They won't be back.
If I am not Lord Satan, then who is? If my name is false, then perhaps you are Lord Satan.
Quite true, if your god doesn't exist, then you've only deceived yourself and others, and you will ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.'
As it is written: "All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made." If my God does not exist, then so too you do not exist.
For if you are not right, you are left or wrong, and if you're the only one left, do you think your god will save you?
As it is written: "God is faithful, by whom you were called into the fellowship of his Son, Jesus Christ our Lord." I have been called and God will not forsake me.
God has never saved anyone. That's why everyone in the past is dead forever. They won't be back.
As it is written: "But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep." The elect shall rise and every knee shall bow.
If I am not Lord Satan, then who is? If my name is false, then perhaps you are Lord Satan.
If you are Satan, then you know where you are going.
Hehehe, if I am Satan, then what does that make you?
As it is written: "The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,"
Jesus? No, what if we switched our words?
As it is written: “‘You shall worship the Lord your God / and him only shall you serve.’”
If Lord Satan said "ALL PEOPLE ARE EVIL AND CORRUPTED"
God has said that, not Satan. Satan tries to deceive people into believing they do not need saving. As it is written: "All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; / no one does good, / not even one.” "And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light."
Isn't that fitting? Should not the Darkest One claim Evil upon All humanity Oh Lord Satan?
As it is written: "Give thanks to the LORD, for he is good, for his steadfast love endures forever."
I see that you also worship Satan, but under a different name. You call Lord Satan Emperor Godking of Darkness "Jesus" or "Yahew".
As it is written: "Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter!"
I respect that you pledge your allegiance to Purest Evil so openly.
As it is written: "Through him then let us continually offer up a sacrifice of praise to God, that is, the fruit of lips that acknowledge his name."
If all of our fates are predestined, and there is a heaven and a hell, and god is omnipotent and all-knowing, as well as our creator, then that means that there are people who will lead evil lives and go to hell to suffer for eternity. This also means that these people have no chance of redemption because the course of their life has already been fated. Now, before you say, "Well they can turn to Jesus." No. They can't. Their lives are predetermined.
Now, if we're subject to predestination, and god is all knowing and omnipotent, this means that he could stop that any time he wants. But he won't. That means that the only reason there are people in hell is because god allows the cycle to continue. That makes him a bigger villain than the devil.
'course. I don't really believe in predestination. I couldn't live with myself if I thought everything I did was already slated out.
Free will means that we're free to choose what we are and who we are going to be. It means we can choose to do good things. And it also means that we're held absolutely for the things we're responsible for.
If all of our fates are predestined, and there is a heaven and a hell, and god is omnipotent and all-knowing, as well as our creator, then that means that there are people who will lead evil lives and go to hell to suffer for eternity. This also means that these people have no chance of redemption because the course of their life has already been fated. Now, before you say, "Well they can turn to Jesus." No. They can't. Their lives are predetermined.
That is correct; they have no chance of redemption.
Now, if we're subject to predestination, and god is all knowing and omnipotent, this means that he could stop that any time he wants. But he won't. That means that the only reason there are people in hell is because god allows the cycle to continue. That makes him a bigger villain than the devil.
He could stop that at any time that He wants but doesn't because He is patient and works all things for the good of those who love Him. The wicked have been made specifically for the day of trouble so that God's wrath towards the unjust may be displayed to His elect who have received mercy and grace and love.
You are aware that under this assumption, that the people who love god have also been made by god, right? And that they only love him because they're predestined to, right? And you are aware of how incredibly sad that is, yes? That he wages wars with his own toys, making good and evil simply so he can watch them. There's no patience in all of this. It's just a show. The god you believe in is arrogant, materialistic, and sinister.
Because everything that you have said is in the Bible. And the Bible says that God loves His elect, which I beg to be, under the will of the Lord. I love God because He first loved me. Though we may not see it at times, God is good and just and loving and works all things for the good of those who love Him. That is why I don't see anything wrong with it. I still see God as good; read Romans 9 and ask yourself the questions that it presents to you. Does the potter have no right over the clay?
I was writing up a bit of a lengthy rage-laden post, but I do think I get it in a sort of creepy way. I think I respect how you see things now. Thank you.
Doesn't this work both ways? If I die a heathen, God choose that for me. Aren't the damned justified in saying "We hate God because God first hated us" ?
The damned were damned from the start. God could have just not bothered making the damned. There is no justice in this view. Or at least there is as much right on the side of the wrong as there is anywhere.
Doesn't this work both ways? If I die a heathen, God choose that for me. Aren't the damned justified in saying "We hate God because God first hated us"
This is somewhat the logic.
The damned were damned from the start. God could have just not bothered making the damned. There is no justice in this view. Or at least there is as much right on the side of the wrong as there is anywhere.
Please read Proverbs 16:4 and Romans 9. Both the Old and New Testaments say that the damned were damned in their creation for a specific purpose.
God does not take pleasure in the destruction of the wicked; however, they have been made for the purpose of being evil so that God can justly destroy them. There is no problem here unless you have a problem with justice.
You are citing nonsense based on mythology which is in other words fairy tale ...that means that you have actual mental issues. You can't see the difference between Harry Potter like stuff and reality.
If you would be happy with that garbage you are blobbing about you wouldn't have the need of defending it online in from to people who obviously do better than you and without fairy tales...
I tell people about the Bible because I want people to have joy and hope in Christ! you are just looking for something to support your insecure belief because you see people around yourself that does not follow same fairy tale and do better.
Though I am not illiterate, I would much rather feed a cow and live a simple life without technology in a 3rd world country than to live in a 1st world country such as America or Canada or Europe. And I do have a future: I am to live with the God of heaven and earth for ever and ever. I am living eternal life right now.
As it is written: "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life."
Satan has given you many promises, hasn't he?
As it is written: “Truly, I say to you, all sins will be forgiven the children of man, and whatever blasphemies they utter, but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin”— for they were saying, “He has an unclean spirit.”
Even though I call myself Lord Satan, and I can grant people much power, even I would never make such a bold lie as immortality.
As it is written: “‘You shall worship the Lord your God / and him only shall you serve.’” “‘Man shall not live by bread alone, / but by every word that comes from the mouth of God.’”
Only a true demon would promise immortality.
As it is written: "And if a house is divided against itself, that house will not be able to stand."
I hope you are prepared for immortality... IN HELL. MUAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA
As it is written: "The LORD is gracious and merciful, slow to anger and abounding in steadfast love."
YOU WERE TRICKED YOU FOOL / JESUS CHRIST TRICKED YOU AND NOW YOU'RE GONNA PAY WHILE HE LAUGHS
As it is written: "Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.""
As it is written: "All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,"
The Bible was written by Lord Satan to get you to do exactly what you are doing.
Then why are you saying things that are contrary to the Bible? As it is written: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
I am not disputing you, I am agreeing. You will become immortal via the Glory of Lord Satan.
As it is written: "You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies."
Good job. You have a few details wrong, but a liar never admits he's lying.
As it is written: "And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light."
A lie works best when the liar says "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. "
As it is written: "Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. And he said to him, “All these I will give you, if you will fall down and worship me.”"
Quite true, so doesn't this make the Bible the Word Of Satan? Either way, I'm pretty sure you're too nutty to ever consider yourself wrong, right?
You are not even close to aware that you view yourself as your own god, which is why, despite God never having spoken to you directly via the Trumpets of Light and Heaven, you would claim the Bible is true.
We have already discussed that. What you are saying is not Biblical. And that is not even the point of the debate. The point of the debate is to ask which one gives one more hope.
How does discerning Biblical truth have anything to do with judging that is condemned in the Bible. You are not saying that which is Biblical. Please tell me how we choose in absolution.
Preaching the Gospel is also done under the divine hand of God. Preaching the Gospel is like the sperm and the heart is like the egg. They must both be conjoined together to produce fruit, which is in the passage where Jesus talks about being born of water and of the Spirit. The water represents the Word of God, which is explained in Ephesians 5:26. However, the footsteps of the messenger have been predestined and are under the hand of the Lord. The why question, though, is probably still not answered. The why is because God works all things for the good of those who love Him. He designed the sperm and egg analogy for some reason that would be good for His elect. What the reason may be, I do not know. However, this is what the Word of God says, so let us believe it.
By far I will take the free will of my Lord and Savior. He set us up to have free will. Therefore I will respect him and praise him for giving me that.
What's funny is that if it's religious it's called predestination. If it's scientific, it's called pre-determinism. Both science and religion have an argument against free will.
Free will is the apparent, self-evident state of existence. There are both atheists and religionists who can't stand that, it's scary.
It seems to me that having Free-Will would make a person's life their responsibility because they would be accountable for their own actions. Everyone wants to pass the buck when it comes to that and so they do their best to prove they do not have Free-Will, whether a religious or atheist/secularist; yet, they make the decision to choose their faith or not. Every person who is on this website debating or visiting, have all made the decision to do so.
I don't believe I have Free-Will, I know I do; otherwise there would be no point to anything. As human-beings we have discretion and decide things.
To think that we do not have Free-Will seems absurd and self-contradictory to me.
I don't really hate you. Actually I am starting to kind of like you, but for some weird reason you call me things and say that I hate you. That's kind of rude you know.
No, I am extremely positive that gods don't exist in any form.
Burden of proof has shown how weak religion clings to the idea of gods, but as for any gods actually exist...
I've seen that people who believe in gods are often severely mentally addled, such as Srom, Lolzors, Dana and other people.
The more strongly you believe in imaginary deities, the more insane one appears.
This makes me think that because there's no proof, only the most insane people believe in it, and because science can explain the natural world, while all religions have been proven to either be dead wrong or "metaphor" gods do not exist.
Because of this, Dana is insane and no god loves her, for no god exists.
Again? Look through all 1000 of my previous debates, along with any other atheist's debates on this site. I have debunked every godlike claim, and any claims I've missed, I'm sure the rest of the atheists here have covered. It's up to you to understand the logic though, which you cannot do, apparently.
They have not given the burden of proof. So what do you want me to look up? If anything the burden of proof has been answered for the theist side through the ontological, the teleological, the kalam cosmological, etc arguments. Atheists are the ones who don't want to accept logic... Especially since the ones who debate these things are professional philosophers and the theists generally win every time.
There are two types of idiots when it comes to religion. The type that says with a 100% certainty that God exists and the type who says with a 100% certainty that God doesn't exist. Nobody knows. Not you, not me, not even the Pope. You could be the most brilliant scientist alive... you still don't know.
Yes, you could also be the most brilliant, intelligent and knowledgeable people in the world, and with your logic, it wouldn't be possible to say "Fairies, genies, leprechauns don't exist".
Those things don't exist, and neither does a god for the same reason. Do not test semantics so far, please.
For all intents and purposes genies, gods, leprechauns and fairies do not exist. If you want to prove a god, then do so, but I have never seen proof, just people ranting about how it's real and how faith justifies their belief.
Faith justifies nothing, just as it wouldn't justify the existence of tiny invisible green people living in bushes.
People don't believe in faries, genies, and leperchauns because they come from fairy tales. Nobody worships them. God on the other hand is worshipped by millions. Do I worship him? No, because I don't have proof of his existence... but I don't have proof that he doesn't exist either. You say "faith justifies nothing", yet you have faith that God isn't real! You sound as ridiculous as them.
Aren't you angry at God? God caused you to be the way you are today. While they were happening he was there. Just watching. He could have stopped it. But he didn't. You reckon he loves you?
Maybe its because you want to murder people etc. that he doesn't love you.
I have a life and it is in Christ. no you don't. You are pathetic scared thing following bronze age kids tale because you are too weak to live in real world.
You are hiding behind irrational set of rules invented by completely illiterate bronze goat dwellers.
You are too scared to face reality, that you are what you are and that's it. There are no magical creatures watching over you, that is just for retards, if you want something you have actually do things....
Well, that is fine with me if you think that, though it is incorrect. Remember, God uses that which is seen as foolish and weak by the world to shame the wise and shame the strong. So I guess the Bible has just been advocated even further...
Well, that is fine with me if you think that, though it is incorrect. Remember, God uses that which is seen as foolish and weak by the world to shame the wise and shame the strong. So I guess the Bible has just been advocated even further...
DO you realize that the citation is as valuable as:
""Pity you can't attach an extra arm to yours [broom], Malfoy. Then it could catch the Snitch for you.""
You were the one to ask why it was true. Something that is true cannot be explained to be true other than the fact that it simply is true. Explain to me why reality is real. It is simply is; though, we do not know for certain it is, which reverts to beliefs-properly-so-called. Your question before was equivalent to asking "why is reality true?" It is not circular reasoning because you can only regress back so far until those beliefs-properly-so-called, which can only result in begging the question, which is what you are calling me on. So it is not failed at all.
The lack of free will can be argued scientifically. We live in a material, causal world. What you think is free will is simply a chain of chemical reactions within your brain. More and more research is supporting pre-determinism. So while the religious predestination supporters may have funny reasons for their belief that you don't have free will, they may be correct.
Perhaps you are the delusional one with your funny ideas that you actually have the God-like power to alter the causal universe. Where do you come up with this free will fairy tale stuff anyway?
The lack of free will can be argued scientifically. We live in a material, causal world. What you think is free will is simply a chain of chemical reactions within your brain. More and more research is supporting pre-determinism. So while the religious predestination supporters may have funny reasons for their belief that you don't have free will, they may be correct.
Perhaps you are the delusional one with your funny ideas that you actually have the God-like power to alter the causal universe. Where do you come up with this free will fairy tale stuff anyway?
that's just pointless, are you sure that you are replying to correct person?
Saying that it is just pointless holds about as much weight as saying the bible told you so.
Nothing is independent of cause. To claim to have free will is to claim causeless motion. Free will is a magical fantasy. Scientific materialism has demonstrated this.
The idea that quantum randomness lies behind free will is not a widely accepted theory. Even so, randomness is not the same as free will. Being at the mercy of random causes doesn't make you the causer. It may only serve to re-enforce your free-will delusion.
Point of free will is the ability to make a random/independent decision or in least an expected decision am I right? There is a new field of science called quantum biology and it seems to be that way... It's just my opinion ...
See what I did there? Though I said your world view was based on fantasy or delusion, I set out to explain why. I didn't call you stupid or crazy. I didn't mock how you were raised or discount your comments without addressing them.
Incidentally, I do believe that free will is self evident, it's a fact of existence. The denial of free will seems to rely on faith (biblical) or mental gymnastics (scientific).
