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Who's really in charge of the Republican Party?
It's seemed to me that there have been various elements & special interest groups that have been competing for the "soul" of the GOP recently. Newt, Rush (and some of his racist followers), the birthers, Glenn Beck (and his Tea Bagger mob), a few members of Congress (not really McCain, since he lost in 2008), Palin & Huckabee (and their respective, mostly religious, followers), Romney, and the ever-erratic Michael Steele.
Who's really leading the charge for the GOP these days?
Unfortunate, it is the same group that runs the Democrats as well. They are the lobbyist. This is the group that runs the country. The one that buys the most influence wins in the end. Oil money bought Bush's two elections. Oprah bought the present seat. Right now the Republican party is being run by those that will lose out if health care is changed. Drug companies, insurance companies, and all those that profit from a broken system. In case you haven't noticed Fox is being brought to you by Pfizer.
She did...how?? It's not like Obama got anywhere near a majority of his cash campaign support from her.
"Right now the Republican party is being run by those that will lose out if health care is changed. Drug companies, insurance companies, and all those that profit from a broken system. In case you haven't noticed Fox is being brought to you by Pfizer."
Well, this may be part of it, but I would argue that the GOP has always been allied with these folks. Also, quite a few Dems take money from some of these same people as well. I think you need to dig a little deeper.
I guess that's the real problem. The Republican Party is really just a walking contradiction. They say they want limited government yet they want government to ban what they find immoral.
So many people bitch about who's leading the Republican Party. If they really look at it, it's just Republicans and they're crazy beliefs. Don't get me wrong, Democrats are just as bad, and they're the ones in charge; but Republicans have so many opportunities to become a Logical Party, but they're too fuckin' stupid and blinded by ideology to do so. Same thing with Democrats.
But I guess the worse thing about Democrats is that they are completely Authoritarian. They WON'T legalize gay marriage, they WON'T legalize any kind of drugs (not even marijuana), they WON'T legalize prostitution, gambling, or any other vices. And, they believe in massive government regulation over the people's property. The only thing they've been able to limit government on is abortion. Thanks... I guess (in case I ever get a chick pregnant and I REALLLY don't want it, w/e).
But, all of this goes back to Human Nature. While we fought for the rights of the people not to be trampled by a tyrannical government, the people themselves are too fuckin' pussy to handle freedom. Every time they get offended or get scared, they say "well, government should ruin lives so that I'm less offended and scared".
This is why Republicans are dominated by moral barriers. The party of Lincoln (which did believe in stronger government, it didn't believe in an interfering government) should be the structure that Republicans follow. But look at the stupid shit they bitch about (gay marriage, censorship, vices). Complete bullshit.
While I disagree with the Libertarian Party on some key points, I have to say that they are the most consistent party with taking back America to it's Constitutional origins. And, this is why more and more Republicans (who can see bullshit) are becoming Libertarians.
Which Republicans are really in change though?? While I would agree with much of what you say about the GOP, you really haven't answered my original question, which I'd really like to have an answer to...from people within the Party particularly.
"But I guess the worse thing about Democrats is that they are completely Authoritarian. They WON'T legalize gay marriage, they WON'T legalize any kind of drugs (not even marijuana), they WON'T legalize prostitution, gambling, or any other vices."
Ummm, really?? Gay marriage HAS been legalized in some states, mostly through the efforts of progressives. Also, while I disagree that pot should be totally legalized, there have been efforts made on the part of medical marijuana by progressives as well. The recent efforts in RI to close a so-called "loophole" that allowed indoor prostitution was opposed mostly by free-thinking progressives.
"And, they believe in massive government regulation over the people's property."
No, they really don't. They simply believe strongly in a mixed economy, which is the most successfully type of economy the world over.
"While I disagree with the Libertarian Party on some key points, I have to say that they are the most consistent party with taking back America to it's Constitutional origins"
...again, in your opinion, which I've yet to hear you back up with actual facts.
A party is made up of party members. In order to have power, the party members must be present. Without the members, the party does not exist. Parties are merely parties. They have no set goals. They have goals depending on the views of the majority of members. Republicans are only Republicans because of their beliefs. Without them, the Republican party does not exist, which is why the people who rule the party are the party.
While there are liberal activists in some states, the ruling class (Democrats in the Executive and Legislative Branch) have done nothing to support progressive policies. This is because the Democratic Party is just as morally constricted as the Republican Party.
Mixed Economy, Social Democracy, Third Way Economics. It's all government regulation over private property.
Libertarian Party:
1st Amendment - Against Political Correctness and any other form of censorship. Against likes of the fairness doctrine or restriction of curious searches (viewing of snuff films would be an example).
2nd Amendment - Believe it.
4th Amendment - Against the Patriot Act and any other form of Government spying. do not believe that citizens should be in total fear of the government. Also believe that the government should not seize personal property.
5th Amendment - Believe it.
In general, the Libertarian Party believes that each individual has a right to their own body and property. The government has no right to control individuals. We should all be free. They believe in Independence.
"Parties are merely parties. They have no set goals."
Wow, to argue that their are no core values to ANY of the Parties is quite a stretch, but you made quite a few arguments that were quite a stretch already.
"Republicans are only Republicans because of their beliefs. Without them, the Republican party does not exist, which is why the people who rule the party are the party."
The is borderline circular logic, at best. There was at least one, unique idea that sparked the GOP originally. I would argue that the so-called "Party of Lincoln" has strayed quite a bit from that idea, but, then again, the Dems of old are not necessarily the Dems of today.
"While there are liberal activists in some states, the ruling class (Democrats in the Executive and Legislative Branch) have done nothing to support progressive policies."
There's absolutely NO evidence of this whatsoever.
"Mixed Economy, Social Democracy, Third Way Economics. It's all government regulation over private property"
...which is totally legal.
"Libertarian Party:
1st Amendment - Against Political Correctness and any other form of censorship. Against likes of the fairness doctrine"
LOL...you act as if no other Party in the USA is against censorship. Also, you obviously have no idea what the "Fairness Doctrine" was or is now. There was such a thing as "conservative" talk radio before it yanno...ugh...
"2nd Amendment - Believe it."
LOL...now there's a catchy phrase..."believe" what?? That there can be no reasonable restrictions on gun ownership, ever?? That people should be able to purchase ant-tank missiles at will?? What are you even talking about??
"4th Amendment - Against the Patriot Act and any other form of Government spying."
Hmmmmm, I know of quite a few Dems (and even some "conservatives") that were opposed to this as well.
"Also believe that the government should not seize personal property."
Ever??
"5th Amendment - Believe it."
LOL...again with the catchy, meaningless phrases. Also, it seems like I remember quite a few Dems (including one of my own Senators) speaking out against violations of this Amendment during the Bush Regime.
"The government has no right to control individuals."
There's absolutely NO evidence of this whatsoever.
Okay. How many bills have they passed to make a federal law legalizing marijuana, gay marriage, gambling, or any other vices?
The fairness doctrine basically says that opinions must be balanced out on talk radio. That's against the first amendment and a restriction of airwaves. Basically, you must put out certain opinions or the government will attack you.
Conservatives believe in primetime censorship. And they're even thinking of attacking premium cable with this bullshit.
Liberals believe in political correctness.
Libertarians are against all of this.
Fact is, Reps and Dems pick and choose what parts of the Constitution fits them. Libertarians don't.
"How many bills have they passed to make a federal law legalizing marijuana, gay marriage, gambling, or any other vices?"
LOL...using the "federal law" dodge isn't going to help you out. BTW, at the federal level, the people that are pushing the hardest for same-sex marriage rights & legalized or decriminalized (which mean two different things to me) marijuana at the federal level are progressives, period.
More than a dozen U.S. states have decriminalized possession or personal use of cannabis. A September 2009 article in Fortune Magazine argues that Obama’s recent stance regarding marijuana, expressed by the U.S. Attorney General’s Office, has all but decriminalized its use in the USA. The U.S. Attorney General, Eric Holder, confirmed at a press conference that his Office would no longer subject individuals who were complying with state medical marijuana laws to federal drug raids and prosecutions.
Same-sex unions are currently recognized in at least CT, DC, NH, NJ, NY, MA, VT, IA, WI, OR, WA, HI, CA, ME, and NV in the USA.
Under U.S. federal law, gambling is LEGAL in the USA, and states are free to regulate or prohibit the practice. Because the Native American tribes are considered sovereign nations, they are often exempt from state laws restricting gambling, and are instead regulated under federal law.
In NV, the buying & selling of sexual services is legal. Up until very recently, RI allowed prostitution only when it occurred indoors.
"The fairness doctrine basically says that opinions must be balanced out on talk radio. That's against the first amendment and a restriction of airwaves. Basically, you must put out certain opinions or the government will attack you."
Nonsense. The Fairness Doctrine was a policy of the U.S. FCC, introduced in 1949, that simply required the holders of public broadcast licenses both to present controversial issues of public importance AND to do so in a manner that was (in the Commission's view) honest, equitable, and balanced. The Fairness Doctrine is NOT the "Equal Time" rules, which deals only with political candidates. In 1969, the U.S. Supreme Court upheld the Commission's general right to enforce the Fairness Doctrine where channels were limited. It only would apply to public airwaves if it ever came back, period.
"Conservatives believe in primetime censorship. And they're even thinking of attacking premium cable with this bullshit."
Yea, and so what? I'm not championing anything on the Right yanno.
"Liberals believe in political correctness."
Political correctness is merely a term denoting language, ideas, policies, and behavior seen as seeking to minimize social offense in gender, racial, cultural, sexual orientation, handicap, and age-related contexts. It really only relates to speech that is almost exclusively pejorative or connoting intolerance. The theory on this subject goes all the way back to a U.S. Supreme Court case in 1793 for heaven's sake!
What about what goes on on the Right:
Before the foolhardy U.S. invasion of Iraq, the Dixie Chicks country band, during a March 2003 London concert, introduced the song "Travelin’ Soldier", and The Guardian quoted Texan Natalie Maines: "Just so you know, we’re on the good side with y’all. We do not want this war, this violence, and we’re ashamed that the President of the United States is from Texas."
Newspaper columnist Don Williams described the resulting backlash against the band as the price for freely speaking political views disapproved by the Right Wing, saying "the ugliest form of political correctness occurs whenever there’s a war on. Then you’d better watch what you say." He noted that wackos Ann Coulter & Bill O'Reilly called the musicians’ comment treasonous.
Linguistic examples of Right-wing adjustments to language, criticized as examples of political correctness include renaming French fries as so-called "Freedom fries".
"Fact is, Reps and Dems pick and choose what parts of the Constitution fits them. Libertarians don't"
a few progressives trying to legalize pot. big fuckin' deal.
we have AN ENTIRELY DEMOCRATIC LEADERSHIP yet no federal law has been passed to SECURE our rights to do these things.
yes, I believe in State's rights, but even more I believe in individual rights. The Democrats don't since they aren't doing jack shit when they have TOTAL POWER.
"a few progressives trying to legalize pot. big fuckin' deal."
No, you were simply WRONG about progressives, period. Admit it!
"we have AN ENTIRELY DEMOCRATIC LEADERSHIP yet no federal law has been passed to SECURE our rights to do these things."
LOL...we have had an economy that has been in serious crisis recently, we are engaged in two wars overseas, we have had serious crises with North Korean & Iran recently, and you want Obama & Congress to spend their time legalizing pot (so I assume you can get high at will), pass gay marriage (which is wildly opposed, unfortunately, by a majority of the country), legalize prostitution (which is, at best, a distinct minor view in the USA), and legalize gambling (which is ALREADY LEGAL, moron). Please...get over yourself...there are simply waaaay more pressing issues than these right now. Obama hasn't even been in office for a full year yet!
1. How was I wrong about Progressives? Don't tell me you think that Democrat = Progressive...
2. They've been able to waste their times passing laws that benefit their ideology, yet not passing laws that benefit the rights of the free individual. Congress is inept, and have done nothing to make us free. They've only passed laws to make us less free.
3. Gambling is legal in Nevada... and nowhere else. Abortion, on the other hand MUST BE legal in all states in some way. Gambling doesn't have to. This is a free country, and therefore ALL Americans (not mattering what state you live in) must be entitled to their vices, w/e they may be. Individual rights may not seem important to you or the Dems in charge, but they sure as fuck were important to the people who died creating this great nation. O, thanks for the insult... guess you forgot this is a debate site... w/e.
1. LOL...having a hard time reading eh?? Remember this lil turd of "wisdom" from the likes of you?:
"There's absolutely NO evidence of this whatsoever."
and then the very detailed rebuttal that I gave you that pwned you on issue after issue?? I didn't think so.
Oh, and no, not all Dems are progressives.
2. LOL...right because passing laws & taking actions that cut payroll taxes for the super-vast majority of Americans, ended torture as the official policy of the USA, reversed GWB's ban on federal funding to foreign establishments that allow abortions, insured an additional 4 million children under SCHIP, repealed a GWB policy that prevented federal tax dollars from being used to fund research on new lines of embryonic stem cells, turned the economy around & gave numerous tax cuts to both businesses & individuals, saved the vast majority of the American auto industry, cut back on the numbers of troops in Iraq, designated more than 2 million acres of new wilderness protection through additions to the National Wilderness Preservation System & the National Park System, and made comprehensive credit card reform that established fair & transparent practices relating to the extension of credit to consumers. Sure sounds "nothing" for the "rights of the free individual"...not...
3. "Gambling is legal in Nevada... and nowhere else."
This is blatant LIE. Learn some basic facts about the subjects that you choose to debate. I am becoming quite bored with educating you on issue after issue.
4. "So you don't believe in the United States?"
LMAO! The king of "let me put words in your mouth that you never said" strikes again! Unbelievable...lol...
1. You said a couple of progressives in Congress try to push it. But, that doesn't change the fact that none of them actually passed any federal laws protecting our rights.
2. SPIN SPIN SPIN SPIN SPIN. Does this answer why they didn't pass laws protecting our INDIVIDUAL rights? no.
3. If you are talking about Indian Reservations, holy shit, wtf? I'm talking about ALL AMERICANS. Not just those with special privileges. Just admit it, Americans are limited on their individual rights greatly. They are constricted by big government, red tape.
4. You said you don't believe in State's rights. the whole purpose of creating the UNITED STATES instead of just one country was to ensure that each state had it's own rights on issues that did not have to do with the Constitution. If you don't believe in State's rights, you do not believe in the concept of State's rights.
1. LOL...keep moving those goal posts...it's not working...
2. "SPIN SPIN SPIN SPIN SPIN." No, facts, facts, facts...and inconvenient ones at that to your entire "argument"...lol...
3. "If you are talking about Indian Reservations, holy shit, wtf? I'm talking about ALL AMERICANS."
No moron, I'm talking about the FACT that gambling is legal in 48 states & DC! Try & learn some facts!!
4. "You said you don't believe in State's rights. the whole purpose of creating the UNITED STATES instead of just one country was to ensure that each state had it's own rights on issues that did not have to do with the Constitution."
Oh my goodness, my friend, the Articles of Confederation failed. That was a structure where the states were very strong & the central govt. was very weak. We have a completely different system of govt. in the USA now and have for over 200 years! Wake up & learn some history.
Your obfuscation, lies, and twists & turns are not going to get you out of the fact that you have been wrong on just about every issue that you've chosen to debate me on here, period. Do yourself a favor & just give it up...
Okay, so don't actually rebuttal anything and just call me a liar.
lern 2 deb8 pleez.
And, you're saying that a complete turn around is a good thing. Like how those being raped by the Nazis then had to be raped by the Communists. No, an overpowering Federal government that DOES NOT protect our individual rights is not better than overpowering States that do not protect our Individual rights.
what we need are States to make state decisions and for the Federal government to ensure that Individual rights CAN NOT be tampered with by State governments.
the problem is that our current system only passes legislation that limits our individual rights more and more. and then, when all of a sudden I say it's time to bring back those rights, YOU say "those issues aren't important right now". They've always been important, since the dawn of the United States. You may find closing gitmo and universal healthcare more important, but the Individual rights of Americans guaranteed by our Founding Fathers should ALWAYS be number one on the list of what the Federal Government or State Government should focus on.
"Okay, so don't actually rebuttal anything and just call me a liar."
LOL...wow, your lack of apparent reading comprehension apparently rivals your rampant ignorance. Congrats on that...ugh...
"And, you're saying that a complete turn around is a good thing. Like how those being raped by the Nazis then had to be raped by the Communists."
Ummm, again, when did I EVER say anything like that?? Oh yea, it was never...once again...that's yet another strawman argument!
"and then, when all of a sudden I say it's time to bring back those rights, YOU say 'those issues aren't important right now'."
Not only do I say that to you, but I say that to my friends at the ACLU. If we have no country at all due to a total collapse of our economy or a war that gets way out of hand, then ALL of our rights will, literally, go up & smoke. It's about priorities & common sense...get some...
"You may find closing gitmo and universal healthcare more important, but the Individual rights of Americans guaranteed by our Founding Fathers should ALWAYS be number one on the list of what the Federal Government or State Government should focus on"
...which is what closing Gitmo (an illegal torture prison!) & universal health care (ensuring that every American has access to good, quality health care at a fair price) is all about, period.
2. You said that the dismantling of the AOC and the turning into a strong Central/Federal Government was a good thing. I pointed out how a complete turn around isn't a good thing.. with an analogy.
3. Once again, same argument for the Patriot Act.
4. Individual Rights of Americans has nothing to do with the college hazing of terrorists (since that's the worse possible thing we could do to them). Universal Health Care is not an individual right. It's a hand out. Whether we believe hand outs are good or not is subject to a separate debate. But they are not more important than individual rights.
2. Hello?? The reason that Founders dumped the Article of Confederation was because that it completely FAILED! Your spin on that subject is irrelevant.
3. NO ONE here is supporting the USA Patriot Act, so quit your endless LYING on that subject.
4. Torture is NOT "college hazing" my moronic friend. I never said that universal health care is a "right" either...so quit putting words in my mouth you liar!
Look, I've given quite a long amount of rope to allow yourself to hang of your own accord. On issues after issue, you simply don't have the facts on you side, and you never seem to learn. So, we're done here. If you continue to respond with the same nonsense of (the Republicans are in charge of the GOP) and your mindless championing of everything that you happen to think makes your beloved Libertarian Party great (which is NOT the subject of this debate), then I'm going to have to explore what that nifty "Ban" button does here, which is not something that I would normally do at all. We're WAAAAAYYY off topic here.