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While it is logically impossible for people to be forced to freely choose God, it is also logically incoherent that God knows every decision you will make if your will is indeed yours. If what you will choose can be known beyond doubt (whether God chooses to know or not) then you cannot deviate from that which it is known you will choose.
If God can know everyone's future choices, then (according to Christianity) he created the vast majority of his beloved children specifically to fry in hell...like an eternal sausage.
"You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies." John 8:44
"And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel." Genesis 3:15
1)Define "perfectly good". Without any god, there is no such thing. Political Atheists can't even agree with each other as to what that means to them. And if God exists He decides what is "perfectly good".
They weren't ever civilised, though. If the East had better kings during medieval times, they couldn't rise above it.
The civilisation happened because Black Death wiped out a lot of clergy. Catholics had power till then because Muslims inspired that much unification in crusades.
They weren't ever civilised, though. If the East had better kings during medieval times, they couldn't rise above it.
The civilisation happened because Black Death wiped out a lot of clergy. Catholics had power till then because Muslims inspired that much unification in crusades.-----
The Crusades were a defense against the Muslim conquests. To defend yourself isn't uncivil.
It isn't, sure, but I wouldn't consider it very noble and civilised to be united by religion mainly for violence. That gave the church power over the states, too, till the rise of Protestants. After which, well, it was their church which had power.
Also, it didn't lead to things known as "civilised world", but only "the West". And that receives a general dislike from almost all former colonies - has been since a long time.
So, those who never knew about the religion, go to heaven?
Not so fast before you get your memory wiped.
If you never knew, then you will be judged by works.
Everyone with or without the knowledge of christianity possesses a soul of conviction.
Your soul is your conscience. Your conscience at the time of your works would be your standards for judgement. If you were so wicked that you killed your conscience, hell is sure banker for you.
Animals don't have souls that is why they cannot be judged in anyway for their massive killings in the jungle.
The same way one won't be judged for killing an animal, i actually haven't yet seen it the bible anywhere that thou shall not kill an animal.
In the bible, a snake was courageous enough to bite a preacher of God, paul.
If you were so wicked that you killed your conscience,
That isn't generally possible. Though someone like me can control his conscience, most people have it rather set in stone by the time they're 5. Some are born with a lower capacity of or without it. Some have it rather twisted due to being abused as kids. Around 90% people have it normal. Their conscience can be played with using a religion.
Your conscience at the time of your works would be your standards for judgement.
Yes, that's how it goes in Hinduism. The Hare Krishnas distorted it in their "translations" of seemingly Hindu scriptures.
Animals don't have souls
No matter how close they are to humans? Chimps are about 95% similar.
Also, what you seem to believe is closer to Hinduism than to Christianity. Look it up sometime. The Advaita sect is in my list of safe religions, so you probably wouldn't have to worry if religious people are persecuted.
It is. Just because you suppress it doesnt mean it isnt there.
Not possible. Unless you're talking about a goat.
Since you don't understand enough about psychology (the exact branch in question is known as abnormal psychology), you best bet is to take my simplifications as gospel.
Like adolf hitler? Yeah he will still go to hell. Suppressing, abandoning or ignoring the plead of your soul doesn't mean it isn't there.
However, you might want to specifically look up sociopathy.
bet they will be very different after i have read it.
No, that's related to a direct quote from Bhagavad Gita. You aren't even required to believe, but only act just and righteous.
. what is safe religion?
The meta specifics don't matter; it's something that I can approve if the world were my empire. A lot of thought goes behind deciding to include a religion inside it, though it's mainly just that the religion should be reasonable and without adverse effects.
You're so materialistic, aren't you?
As you can see, animals are alive. I am, as I said, a materialist.
Since you don't understand enough about psychology (the exact branch in question is known as abnormal psychology), you best bet is to take my simplifications as gospel.
Me? Don't know?lol
Had you known my childhood, your expectation of what i would have been today would be very different from what i have actually become today.
I have become very hard, strict, highly principled. But my soul is intact. I didn't kill it even though sometime ago i quite suppressed it(i planned to be wicked).
However, you might want to specifically look up sociopathy.
It was all vengeance and hatred.
He had to condemn his soul to death first. So he wouldn't be what is termed as 'weak'.
You aren't even required to believe, but only act just and righteous.
Now that's a difference.
As you can see, animals are alive. I am, as I said, a materialist.
Then you're lost.
Because they qualify
Because they are the predators.
They feel threatened by us.
We keep knocking on their conscience(soul) they try each day to deny.
They want to do away with it so they can set their own rules of morality(how convenient right?). And then they will feel all righteous and don't deserve any condemnation(The one christianity keeps reminding them of) .
Had you known my childhood, your expectation of what i would have been today would be very different from what i have actually become today.
Then you can study it by yourself. I know enough about it and the neuroscience behind it that what I simplified there is infallible.
It was all vengeance and hatred.
It was very Christian to hate Jews. Explains how the Christians didn't complain.
He had to condemn his soul to death first. So he wouldn't be what is termed as 'weak'.
Whatever that means, I don't know much about his life to guess whether he is relevant here. Did he have any childhood traumas? Also, my point still stands,
However, you might want to specifically look up sociopathy.
If yes, then he would be what I call 'weak'.
Then you're lost.
Hmm... You didn't answer.
We keep knocking on their conscience(soul) they try each day to deny.
Anyone who wants to play that "religion = Christianity" is an idiot. I thought it was only the Europeans and Americans, which means you're probably an alt of someone else here.
It was very Christian to hate Jews. Explains how the Christians didn't complain
Hitler was a christian. Later become a freemason. And then became a satanist belonging to certain cults.
He changed over the years after his mom died.
Did he have any childhood traumas
He was sound. He wanted to be a priest and even preached at home trying to immitate priests after church. He later wanted to become a painter. But the jews caused him all of his pain(unintentionally), school, career, with his loved ones etc.
Hmm... You didn't answer
Physical looks or alikeness don't matter. Animals don't have souls.
Anyone who wants to play that "religion = Christianity" is an idiot.
Atheists don't know any other religion than christianity. It has always been. They don't care about the others. They can tolerate any 'acclaimed' religion but not christianity.
Atheists don't know any other religion than christianity. It has always been. They don't care about the others. They can tolerate any 'acclaimed' religion but not christianity.
Your memory seems to be worse than your intellect.
Physical looks or alikeness don't matter.
Ah, I see, you can't understand mutation and evolution.
Animals don't have souls.
Why not? Is there some biblical verse that makes you say so?
Just your opinion. Misusing your freedom of speech. Well, i don't care.
Ah, I see, you can't understand mutation and evolution.
There is no shame in not understanding a stupid and foolish theory.
Plus i even have my own theory backed by the bible(genesis) , today's reality and time history or datings that renders evolution totally useless. Science will survive, evolution will be abolished.
Why not? Is there some biblical verse that makes you say so?
Well, you are boring. I hope what you show will be more interesting than you.
Also, Hinduism is not exactly that... Sinners can still earn redemption by devotion, non sinners have more steps but don't need to pray. Look up any further by yourself (you won't) if you want to.
Also, Hinduism is not exactly that... Sinners can still earn redemption by devotion, non sinners have more steps but don't need to pray. Look up any further by yourself (you won't) if you want to.
"The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God." 2 Corinthians 4:4
--
Looks like there is more than one player in your scenario.
If what you will choose can be known beyond doubt (whether God chooses to know or not) then you cannot deviate from that which it is known you will choose.
If what you will choose can be known beyond doubt (whether God chooses to know or not) then you cannot deviate from that which it is known you will choose.----
Perhaps. But you can choose the path that leads to the best overall result with free will as a variable. In other words you(God) pick the path where the most people get saved or where you hit your objective, whatever that is.
I am only going to respond in one post. Responding to multiple posts for the same conversation is tiresome.
First, perhaps I used to wrong term when I said God’s children. I still contend that the Christian God created the vast majority of people to ultimately burn in hell.
In response to “it is also logically incoherent that God knows every decision you will make if your will is indeed yours” you said Not really. Knowing the final result doesn't indicate that you made it happen or even influenced it.
If God created everything, it is illogical to say there is anything that he did not influence. Even so, God need not make you do something in order for you to have no choice in the matter. If you freely choose an action but there is no other possible action, have you freely chosen? If God knows the only possible course of actions you will take, and he knows it leads you to hell, then when he created you, he created you to go to hell. Even if you choose every step of the only road there is for you.
In response to “If what you will choose can be known beyond doubt (whether God chooses to know or not) then you cannot deviate from that which it is known you will choose” you said Perhaps. But you can choose the path that leads to the best overall result with free will as a variable. In other words you(God) pick the path where the most people get saved or where you hit your objective, whatever that is
An omniscient God is incompatible with free will, as demonstrated above. If God is omnipotent, and this world is the best possible world in terms of saving souls, then the world is fundamentally flawed, since more people go to hell than to heaven by many orders of magnitude.
In summary: If God is omniscient, then I can freely choose hell, but not heaven, since God knew my choice before I was created. If God is omnipotent then he determined that a world mostly doomed to hell is the best option. The infinite number of unconceived children ought to rejoice. Odds are that if they were conceived, God had it in for them.
-----First, perhaps I used to wrong term when I said God’s children. I still contend that the Christian God created the vast majority of people to ultimately burn in hell.-----
1)You are assuming he "created them". For all we know, Satan did.
2)You'll have to explain to us who "burns in hell" and what hell is from a Biblical perspective.
3)Even if God did create them, they chose to be against Him per their own free will.
4)And people who are ignorant or never know are addressed in John 9:41
God created the good and made the evil. He created all. God created Satan with knowledge aforethought of Satans ultimate course of action. Satan is Gods tool. Nothing occurs but by God's hand. Directly or indirectly.
If you propose that model, Satan chose to rebel and so did his children. And in battle, we dispose of our open enemies or imprison them because they can be of no good use to our kingdom, only an open threat.
And in the Bible, they were allowed for a time, simply to refine and test God's children to enhance them and make them better and proven, but they are ultimately destroyed.
-----If you freely choose an action but there is no other possible action, have you freely chosen?-----
Yep. If you know what Doc Holiday does in the movie Tombstone, he still chose to perform the act. You are not responsible for his act simply because you have seen Tombstone.
-----If God knows the only possible course of actions you will take, and he knows it leads you to hell, then when he created you, he created you to go to hell.-----
1)You don't know who "goes to hell" or what "hell" even is.
2)If you look at all possibilities and a person never chooses you but refines your children and makes them into who they become, then you as God, are obligated to that possibility if it is the best possible outcome overall.
An omniscient God is incompatible with free will, as demonstrated above. If God is omnipotent, and this world is the best possible world in terms of saving souls, then the world is fundamentally flawed, since more people go to hell than to heaven by many orders of magnitude-----
This is the equivalent of saying that a field of apple trees is flawed if it yields more fruit than any other field. Nope. It's the best field.
Define "flawed". If something isn't aesthetically pleasing to Person A, that doesn't mean it isn't pleasing to Person B. And if it yields exactly what you wanted, then it isn't "flawed" in your sight.
-----If God is omnipotent then he determined that a world mostly doomed to hell is the best option-----
You don't know who is "doomed to hell" or what hell even literally is. The Bible also uses the phrase "destroy your soul in hell". "Destroy" means to take away the existance of. If someone is useful but rejects Him, allowing them to perish is a granting of their will. If someone is militant against him or causes damage, then to imprison them as a punishment is normal discorse.
-----If God is omnipotent then he determined that a world mostly doomed to hell is the best option-----
Not really. This world belongs to Satan according to the Bible. God's children are referred to as aliens in a foreign world. We are from another world that doesn't belong to Satan. You can be too.
God creates the epitome of evil but bears no responsibility. Got it. Look I'm done with this conversation. This multiple short responses filling up my feed is too annoying.
This is what's wrong with debating faith. Faith relies on belief without reason. Even when I point out logical inconsistencies within your own faith, as I have done, you can simply say that there aren't logical inconsistencies. You don't believe their are, and in matters of faith that is good enough.
God creates the most evil destructive entity imaginable, Satan, and you blame Satan. God creates people knowing that the majority of them will burn in hell. He even knows who specifically will burn in hell when he creates them. An you claim that those hell-bound people should have chosen differently, ignoring the fact that there is no other way for them to end up.
This isn't a debate. It doesn't matter that I am right and you are wrong because you believe you are right and you believe I am wrong. Good enough for faith.
If my dad knew that by creating me specifically he would create a mass murderer, you can blame him for not creating someone else. You can blame him for not creating me differently. Your analogy doesn't apply because my dad is not omniscient and omnipotent.
-----God creates people knowing that the majority of them will burn in hell.-----
1)The punishments and rewards are different for every person. Mercy is shown to the merciful. Forgiveness is shown to the forgiving. God's words, not mine. If you are merciful, then you shouldn't have a problem.
I don't care what Saint does. You keep responding. If you can't handle being debated, a debate site probably isn't the best place for you. Maybe you should try a yoga class or a pottery class.
Simple. he didn't. God is just coincidence with individual context. it is not rejection if the relationship was oppressive from the start. it is freedom
You see, the pagan gods before him were just obey or else, and then if you didn't then eventually the warior tribe followers of that god would come around and try to kill you unless you were already one of them.
But the new Judeo Christian version of god was supposedly better than that. He had to be written to be more fair, less vindictive, and more powerful all by himself than all these penny anty pagan gods with different specialties among them. So after he was conceived as one uber god he was presented by his followers... And although they got some conversions they did not get the wave of conversions they thought they warranted. In fact, the rival established religions were still much bigger and much more powerful, so the story of the new god got written up to include warnings to those other religions.
And then when genuinely nice individuals still didn't convert to it then the message warped to no it's not good enough to be nice, and it doesn't matter whether you follow some other religion well or if you simply go on being nice, then you're still going to hell... Unless you fall in line behind the Christian authors of the new belief.
"Why did God create people He knew would reject Him?" He didn't. Instead, the people who conceived of that god thought up reasons to rationalize why he would do that, since they could no longer rely on the old pagan way of just going over and killing them.
-----You see, the pagan gods before him were just obey or else, and then if you didn't then eventually the warior tribe followers of that god would come around and try to kill you unless you were already one of them.-----
Yes. And they all disappeared. Ours didn't. And they all have obvious traits in common of which God warned us about.
-----but the new Judeo Christian version of god was supposedly better than that.-----
No. Actually Jesus taught the exact same principles as the God of the Old Testament. Your atheist apologetics sites don't tell you that. You have to actually read it for yourself to find out they are full of crap, like a free thinker, like I did.
-----He had to be written to be more fair, less vindictive, and more powerful all by himself than all these penny anty pagan gods with different specialties among them.-----
You must be fully ignoring the full wrath of God on humanity in the last book of the New Testament. It's more "vendictive" than the Old Testament.
-----In fact, the rival established religions were still much bigger and much more powerful, so the story of the new god got written up to include warnings to those other religions.-----
Which would go against your earlier "vendictive God" claim because the ancient "gods" were built on intimidation.
-----And then when genuinely nice individuals still didn't convert ----
And there is no one who is genuinely nice if you could read their thoughts and motives, which God can. And if you claim you are, that proves that you aren't.
----instead, the people who conceived of that god thought up reasons to rationalize why he would do that, since they could no longer rely on the old pagan way of just going over and killing them.-----
God didn't justify killing random innocent people. He did command the slaughter of the followers of Baal, but of course they were cooking babies in live sacrifices to the Devil. That isn't on the atheist apologetics site. I know. I've seen em all.
Or better still. If there was/is a God why would such a mythical creature create people capable of independent reasoning and then condemn them to everlasting torture if the the result of their reasoning leads them to the inevitable conclusion that no God exists?
All religions are based on superstition and fear of the unknown and both these weaknesses in the human psych' are exploited by clever orators who take delight in manipulating their fellow men and women by feeding them a load of festering pig manure.
Or better still. If there was/is a God why would such a mythical creature create people capable of independent reasoning and then condemn them to everlasting torture if the the result of their reasoning leads them to the inevitable conclusion that no God exists------
Or better still. If there was/is a God why would such a mythical creature create people capable of independent reasoning and then condemn them to everlasting torture if the the result of their reasoning leads them to the inevitable conclusion that no God exists------
A "just god" would want to be "even handed" wouldn't S/HE/IT?? A one sided god would appear to be a dictator to his "thinking followers", we wouldn't want THAT now, would we?? S/HE/IT wouldn't have something like a "Satan" figure to show what NOT following S/HE/IT would be like .... and if that figure didn't show what NOT following this "god" would be like .... we wouldn't NEED that "god", would we?? A "god" that is not needed becomes useless, doesn't it?? Then S/HE/IT becomes "rejected". We MUST have evil to "need" a "god". To "reject" a god you only have to hate evil and work against it. I haven't seen a "god" that DID! WE have to do it all.
-----A one sided god would appear to be a dictator to his "thinking followers", we wouldn't want THAT now, would we??-----
If we accept the laws and trust the decisions of the monarch in an absolute monarchy, then it's actually the best and most effective form of government for getting good things done. No red tape.
-----I haven't seen a "god" that DID! WE have to do it all.-----
You've never seen Darwinism happen either, yet you still jumped on that train happily without needing real evidence that could pass the bare essentials of the scientific method. (Observable, testable, measurable) Anything else?
It has no principles other than that it is a predetermined answer that must have all data and evidence pointed towards it even if it doesn't, and the theory still looks stupid and makes no sense even with the manipulations.
