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30
45
Speculation and evidence Blind belief and subjectivity
Debate Score:75
Arguments:74
Total Votes:94
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 Speculation and evidence (28)
 
 Blind belief and subjectivity (39)

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Daegonius(328) pic



Why do christians say things are "just a theory" but think faith is any better?

What makes you think saying "just a theory" is worth anything when your beliefs are based on faith? Faith is inferior to theory, because having faith requires nothing but belief, you can have faith in anything. But to have a theory there must be evidence for that theory. Intelligent people do not simply choose to believe in things, they try to figure out the actual truth, this is why very little in science is considered a fact. A theory is not a belief, a theory is an explanation based on evidence, it does not demand that you believe in it, a theory is simply a hypothesis which has been found to conform with observable evidence. A theory is for this reason, more compatible with open and critical thought, whereas faith is absolutely useless when it comes to learning the actual truth. Faith is a blind assertion based on nothing, A hypothesis is speculation, A theory is what you get when a hypothesis has been shown to explain a phenomena. Faith= this is true because I want it to be and Theory= this is probably true because that's what the evidence suggests.

Speculation and evidence

Side Score: 30
VS.

Blind belief and subjectivity

Side Score: 45
0 points

What makes you think saying "just a theory" is worth anything when your beliefs are based on faith?

You mean like theories? Both theories and faith require evidence. Unfortunately, a lot of Christians don't bother with the hard evidence and I used to be like that

Faith is inferior to theory, because having faith requires nothing but belief, you can have faith in anything.

You're right. People can have faith in anything, including a theory. The only problem though is that it sounds like you've met a lot of Christians who don't give you evidence

But to have a theory there must be evidence for that theory.

You mean just like faith in God?

Intelligent people do not simply choose to believe in things, they try to figure out the actual truth, this is why very little in science is considered a fact.

You seem like an intelligent person yet you not only chose to believe that faith is nothing more than belief that can't be backed by evidence, you also believe

A theory is not a belief, a theory is an explanation based on evidence, it does not demand that you believe in it, a theory is simply a hypothesis which has been found to conform with observable evidence.

You mean just like a belief in God? Who's demanding that you believe in God?

A theory is for this reason, more compatible with open and critical thought, whereas faith is absolutely useless when it comes to learning the actual truth.

If Christianity were true, would you believe it?

Faith is a blind assertion based on nothing,

You mean like this blind assertion?

A hypothesis is speculation, A theory is what you get when a hypothesis has been shown to explain a phenomena.

Have you read the bible honestly and formed your own theories based off what it said?

Faith= this is true because I want it to be and Theory= this is probably true because that's what the evidence suggests.

These definitions sound like your faith in your own beliefs without any credible theories to back them up

Side: Speculation and evidence
-2 points
Daegonius(328) Disputed
1 point

The problem comes when you want to push that theory as fact onto our impressionable children

In case you haven't noticed christians push their religion onto children, I already explained that faith is a blind belief based on nothing and that a theory does not demand that you believe in it unlike religion because it is merely an explanation or idea which has been shown to correlate with available evidence, not an absolute expression of truth. I will give you a brief recap to refresh your memory

Faith= blind belief

Hypothesis= an idea or system of ideas intended to explain observable phenomena

Theory= a hypothesis which correlates with the available evidence but which is still open to be improved upon or falsified.

The problem comes when you want to censor the freedom of religious expression on public land.

Yes that is not how I would handle things if I was your overlord, I would let you express your religion in public. Even though humanity has much bigger problems than the narrow minded one dimensional mentality you are exhibiting can even imagine. You are focusing on nothing but abortion and offenses to your religion, these are the only things you ever talk about when there is so much more to worry about. You are wasting your energy, none of that poppycock will matter when the AI cloud singularity system starts tracking everything you do and your children are forced to get computer chips implanted into their brains and you live in a giant prison-like "smart city" with fluoride being injected into your thyroid and GMOs being shoved down your throat with a plunger.

The problem comes when you take Christian owned busnessess to court to force them to cater things that go against their faith.

Again,what about the chemical run off infecting the oceans and rivers? What about the people dying of poverty in droves in third world countries? What about fukushima still melting down and discharging radioisotopes into the ocean? Who gives a flying cheese bisquit cut out of George Washington's butt crack about that one time some people took some other people to court because they didn't want to bake them a cake.

No one is trying to force your children to believe in God

Yes they are, what you don't understand is that "beliefs" are unscientific, there is no such thing as belief in science unless you are a second rate nincompoop scientist. That is why we call most of our ideas hypothesis or theory and not "fact" or "law". You are the ones who force children to believe in things, now bugger off you insufferable dung nugget.

Side: Blind belief and subjectivity
seanB(545) Disputed
1 point

Scientific theories are models for the explanation of facts. For instance, if you throw a penny in the air, it drops to the ground. That's a fact. Gravitational theory is the explanation of that fact: the Earth's superior mass causes it to have a greater gravitational force than the penny, thus pulling the penny towards its centre of mass.

If you try to light a match in air, it will light, but if you do it in pure nitrogen the match won't light. That's a fact. Atomic theory allow us to explain that fact: oxygen is necessary for combustion.

Facts are facts, and scientific theories are answers to the questions: why and how is that fact a fact?

By contrast, religion does not describe facts nor are religious theories verifiable or falsifiable. Ie. Religion is based ENTIRELY upon belief despite of or in the absence of factual evidence. That's the difference between science and religion.

Those "theories" that your poor gets are getting impressed with? They're the basis for every single thing of technological, medical, or engineering worth that humanity has ever accomplished. That computer you're writing on? It's a result of the theories of computation, switching circuit theory, computational logic, etc etc.

The medicine and treatments you get when you go to hospital? Germ theory; antibiotic resistance theory; bacterial evolution; chromosome theory etc etc.

They aren't "beliefs". They're robust explanations of facts.

Side: Blind belief and subjectivity
FromWithin(6479) Disputed
1 point

Facts are facts, and scientific facts of biology shows that our bodies are designed for sex between a man and woman.

Funny how scientific FACTS are ignored by you and the Left. You cherry pick which scientific theory or facts you want to stand by.

Why is it you think Homosexuality is another natural sexual orientation? Do you ignore science?

Political correctness is based ENTIRELY upon belief despite of or in the absence of factual evidence. That's the difference between science and Leftwing political correctness.

Side: Speculation and evidence

Evidence for that theory

All of these things will be true in the end according to the Bible.

1)Israel exists as a nation again, and Libya and Egypt are subdued.

2)Egypt exists still but with its former power ceasing to exist.

3)Syria exists.

4)Damascus exists and is reduced to rubble.

5)The beast system emerges. Islam literaly claims to be the beast system in its eschatology, and no one knew this outside the Muslim world until the Internet and 9/11.

The beast system begins genociding Christians and routinely using beheading on its Christian victims.

The odds of the beast system and Atheism jumping out of the closet at once against Christians is pretty much zilch.

6)The gospel goes worldwide, and then begins a sharp decline into secularism in its original areas.

7)Homosexuality becomes normal and accepted.

8)It becomes normal to mock God.

9)The world escalades towards world war.

10)Jerusalem is the burden of peace in the world.

11)What would now be Europe and old school theologians referred to as "the revived Roman Empire", begins mindlessly handing over its power and territory to the beast system.

12)The world begins to side with the beast system more and more against the Christians.

13)It is depicted as all manifesting rather rapidly in sequence.

If God isn't real, the Illuminati or whatever you want to call it, joined up in a 2,000 year old conspiracy, to make the Bible prophecies come true.

Either way you slice it, there's some crazy unexplainable stuff manifesting onto the world.

Side: Blind belief and subjectivity
Daegonius(328) Disputed
2 points

Either way you slice it, there's some crazy unexplainable stuff manifesting onto the world.

It may seem that way from a certain point of view, but we can see the reasons why these things are happening if we look deep enough, if you look at how the dominoes fell none of these things are that surprising. It's not divine prophesy, if anything the writers of the bible where able to use logic to reach conclusions about the future or just made a series of vague statements that where bound to apply to something at some point.

If God isn't real, the Illuminati or whatever you want to call it, joined up in a 2,000 year old conspiracy, to make the Bible prophecies come true.

That is actually just as plausible if you think about it. In fact it's more plausible. If Islam/ the illuminati really is "the beast" then it would act the same way that it would act if it wasn't the beast but it thought it was, it would try to fulfill the prophesy.

1)Israel exists as a nation again, and Libya and Egypt are subdued.

There are historical reasons for this, it is cause and effect not prophesy.

2)Egypt exists still but with its former power ceasing to exist.

This is common sense, anyone with half a brain could have figured out that egypt wouldn't be as influential in the future. Egypt was already in decline at the time the prophesy was written, and the fertility of the land was bound to decline. In fact the bible could have been way more detailed and is lacking. Even a non prophetic source can tell you using science a fairly accurate estimate of when an ancient civilization like egypt will collapse, as their existence depends upon a temporary geographical condition of abundant arable land. Using science you can predict when the soil will be depleted or when the climate will change, and using geo-political analysis you can deduce other factors which may lead to a premature collapse. With ayahuasca fueled divination in a cave you can only make vague statements. At the end of the day, egypt was bound to lose is power due to it's precarious reliance on agriculture and the inevitability of other powers rising to conquer it such as islam.

3)Syria exists.

Again, this is easy to predict.

4)Damascus exists and is reduced to rubble.

Still can be reduced to coincidence, it was bound to get destroyed at some point.

5)The beast system emerges. Islam literaly claims to be the beast system in its eschatology, and no one knew this outside the Muslim world until the Internet and 9/11.

Do you have any sources for this you could slather onto my hot breasts? I find it hard to believe that islam was actually designed to be the beast system.

The beast system begins genociding Christians and routinely using beheading on its Christian victims.

Islam beheads christians because they are culturally primitive barbarians, it doesn't mean the prophesy is true or that it's even about them.

The odds of the beast system and Atheism jumping out of the closet at once against Christians is pretty much zilch.

They didn't "jump out of the closet" simultaneously, Islam started 1400 years ago and has been attacking christians since it's conception, Atheists have been attacking christianity since the beginning of christianity and only just recently started "coming out of the closet" and growing in number at a significant rate.

6)The gospel goes worldwide, and then begins a sharp decline into secularism in its original areas.

This is very easy to predict using logic. The writers of the bible where probably often intelligent people who could make educated guesses about future trends. The bible was bound to spread because there was a serious effort being made to spread it by influential people. On top of that, they could have figured that something like the printing press would be invented and that literacy would become more common as society advanced. Also the rise of atheism and secularism where inevitable, because as people understand more about the natural world they have less need for baseless faith.

7)Homosexuality becomes normal and accepted.

Homosexuality has already been normal and accepted in various cultures for thousands of years, and it still isn't in many cultures, including the "beast system" Shouldn't the beast system, the most sinful system of all, accept gayness? But Islam doesn't. Once again, it isn't that difficult to make vague statements like this, and many of them don't even add up when you really think about it.

8)It becomes normal to mock God.

It becomes normal to mock belief systems which you don't take seriously, just as more christians where bound to accept Jesus into their inner titty space, more non-christians and former believers where bound to lactate barbeque jalepeno sauce into God's belly button.

9)The world escalades towards world war.

The world has always escalatored into war, these wars have always gotten bigger and bigger because empires have gotten bigger and bigger and international politics has gotten more complicated and inter-connected. These things are not divine prophesy,they are common sense logical predictions and vague guesses. The bibles writers where nothing but crafty fortune tellers on steroids.

Do I really need to do the rest?

Side: Speculation and evidence
2 points

Homosexuality has already been normal and accepted

Bwahahahahaha! There goes the "we were an oppressed minority all of those years" narrative.

Side: Blind belief and subjectivity
1 point

It may seem that way from a certain point of view

Yeah, it's called inductive reasoning.

Supporting Evidence: Inductive reasoning (whatis.techtarget.com)
Side: Blind belief and subjectivity
1 point

It becomes normal to mock belief systems which you don't take seriously, just as more christians where bound to accept Jesus into their inner titty space, more non-christians and former believers where bound to lactate barbeque jalepeno sauce into God's belly button

Pretty lame attempt at a rebuttal. I only speak English. You should try it some time.

Side: Blind belief and subjectivity
1 point

These things are not divine prophesy,they are common sense logical predictions and vague guesses.

How does someone 2,000 years ago guess that Islam will form in the future and claim to literally be the beast system from the book of Revelation, thus genociding Christians and beheading them? Do tell.

Side: Blind belief and subjectivity
1 point

Shouldn't the beast system, the most sinful system of all, accept gayness?

1)No. The fact you think it "should", shows that the prophecies aren't based on easy logic to predict the future.

2)No one said it's "the most sinful". It's the most "against Christ". Islam violently and aggressively rejects the notion that Jesus is the Christ.

But Islam doesn't.

No, but gays, who are strongly liberal accept IT, which is the Bible's claim. Not the other way around.

We also know that the beast system "hates the whore", Mystery Babylon, which is the final powerful empire and stands for everything the beast hates. The depiction in Revelation is a whore riding and petting a beast that actually hates her and then kills her. The beast is Islam according to Islam itself. Mystery Babylon is the Liberal West.

It makes absolutely no logical sense that liberals or gays would support Islam, which is even more convincing prophetically, seeing that liberals and gays have fulfilled this prophecy by doing what is the opposite of logical. Meaning, they claim to hate conservatism, yet actually defend a group that is ultra conservatism.

The liberal West pets and defends a group that hates everything about it, just as the whore does in Revelation.

Side: Blind belief and subjectivity
KrutonHybrid(74) Disputed
1 point

All of these things will be true in the end according to the Bible.

Prophecies don't constitute evidence anywhere outside the screaming abyss of madness that you pull your opinions out of. Shut up.

Side: Speculation and evidence
1 point

They do if they come true.

Don't be mad that your religion has to fulfill many of them and is doing an acceptional job. Hell you fulfilled one just in this dialogue.

I've noticed that "shut up" is your go to when you have no logical response or any rebuttal. I relish it when you have to go there because you've got nothing, and I know you don't. Of course you've never demonstrated the ability to debate well. Jolly good.

Side: Blind belief and subjectivity
mrcatsam(503) Clarified
1 point

So you're going to believe a nasty old book? The bible was made by people. People with opinions that correlated with the politics of the time in which it was written. That's why you see traces of homophobia in there.

You can believe whatever you want. Just don't go around saying the world is going to end because of something a few people wrote in a book a few centuries ,or whatever, ago.

Side: Speculation and evidence
1 point

Why do christians say things are "just a theory" but think faith is any better?

I agree with everything you stated in your description, although I would point out that you are essentially arguing against uneducated religious believers--not "sophisticated"/educated believers. Now, the uneducated believers make up the overwhelming bulk, however this is generally true of religious & non-religious people alike. Typically, they haven't been exposed to the scientific enterprise or academic thought more broadly, which is why lines of argumentation such as you referred to seem sensible to them.

Now, I know of quite a few reasonably-highly intelligent & educated people that subscribe to some form of religious belief (or perhaps more accurately, quasi-religious beliefs), although their type of belief typically takes a very different form then that of the general publics as to nearly be an entirely different "game". They will almost never state "just a theory" or claim an appeal to "faith". Rather, they often contend that their (quasi)religious beliefs are in fact a sort of Philosophical Theory strongly supported/inferred by many, varied lines of evidence based on what we currently know about the state of Nature, Human affairs, ect. ect. with some real knowledge of Science, Philosophy, ect. to "back up" their worldview

Side: Blind belief and subjectivity
KrutonHybrid(74) Disputed
1 point

Now, I know of quite a few reasonably-highly intelligent & educated people that subscribe to some form of religious belief (or perhaps more accurately, quasi-religious beliefs), although their type of belief typically takes a very different form then that of the general publics as to nearly be an entirely different "game".

rather, they often contend that their (quasi)religious beliefs are in fact a sort of Philosophical Theory

You are literally prattling on about nothing. You honestly couldn't make a point if your life depended on it. Are these people religious or are they not religious? Because you don't seem to be able to make your mind up. They claim to be religious, but you claim them to be philosophers. The problem is philosophy is the study of reason and faith is the opposite of reason. Hence, everything you have thus far said contradicts itself.

Side: Speculation and evidence
xMathFanx(1573) Clarified
1 point

@Nomenclature

Are these people religious or are they not religious?

They are religious in the sense that they do not necessarily strictly hold to materialism (or possibly hold to materialism but have views concerning Cosmology that go beyond the established framework of our modern conception of the field). However, their actual beliefs bare little resemblance to "traditional" religious belief

Side: Speculation and evidence
xMathFanx(1573) Clarified
1 point

@Nomenclature

They claim to be religious, but you claim them to be philosophers.

There is in fact a lot of continuity on this front. In fact, this is why people such as Newton so often wrote/thought about religious ideas, as they were attempting to uncover the "ultimate understanding" behind the Cosmos. This is a perfectly rational endeavor in many respects

Are you familiar with Paul Davies? (Side Note: I have met Davies in person)

Side: Speculation and evidence
1 point

You are literally prattling on about nothing. You honestly couldn't make a point if your life depended on it. Are these people religious or are they not religious

Linear thinking plebs like you are cute.

Side: Blind belief and subjectivity
1 point

Faith in God is blind in that we only see through a glass darkly, and it is subjective, just like all knowledge, because knowledge is personal.

So why scoff at those who proclaim science while denying God?

Because God is not a theory, God is The Supreme and Ultimate Reality, and if you don't believe in this, your science falsely so called isn't standing on anything.

Exalting knowledge over God is idiotic. The people who do this don't know what they are talking about, and it would be far worse for them if they did!

And what is the misunderstanding about Christ? Faith in Christ is faith in God, The Supreme and Ultimate Reality. It isn't faith in created things. Knowledge is clearly a created thing, and knowledge itself is not indication of truth.

I can know something without it being true. Just because something is science doesn't mean it is true. Besides that, just because you read something in a book that said what it told you is "scientific" doesn't mean that it is actually scientific.

Did you perform any experiments? Did you follow the scientific method? Did you meticulously toil in order to isolate as many variables as possible?

See, you aren't even truthful when you appeal to "science", because you don't actually believe in science, you just believe what the witch doctors tell you.

I know better. To me what I say is science. Unlike you arrogant doop heads, my faith isn't in my understanding but GOD, The Supreme and Ultimate Reality.

Yet those who question God are so weak in their faith that all they can do is attack people, ideas, artwork, culture, etc. When it comes to The One True God? There is no legitimate argument against this. What is the first thing God deniers do? They make God into a falsity. This is why THEY ARE WRONG.

God is The Truth, all others are liars. Glorify God, and stop judging God because you don't like people. Those who condemn others based on faith in their own self righteousness are clearly no better than those they point the finger at.

See, another problem is the superstitious idea of what faith is. Faith in the context of theology is sincere and strong conviction, which isn't necessarily blind or not based on evidence. Obviously, faith comes from proof, if something wasn't proven to an individual, they don't have faith. Proof doesn't necessarily have to be convincing to everyone, just the one that has had something proven to them!

So what is faith in Christ? It is sincere and strong conviction in The Supreme and Ultimate Reality.

How can those who kill Christ know what they are doing? They can be comforted to know that despite their sins against humanity and all things sacred, they have been forgiven. Forgiven by the very one they are persecuting.

Repent and believe The Good News, that It is The Truth that sets you free, and The Supreme and Ultimate Reality is Salvation!

Side: Blind belief and subjectivity