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24
20
we try to change their opinion we're crazy
Debate Score:44
Arguments:57
Total Votes:47
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 we try to change their opinion (19)
 
 we're crazy (19)

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beastforever(542) pic



Why do we debate conservatives when we know they're not in for any change?

I was thinking, what's the point in debating a conservative , if their definition is to not accept anything new, but to stick to their own old ones, irrespective of flaws...
"Conservatism (or conservativism) is any political philosophy that favours tradition (in the sense of various religious, cultural, or nationally-defined beliefs and customs) in the face of external forces for change, and is critical of proposals for radical social change."

please note, I'm not referring to political parties here, but talking about conservatism..

we try to change their opinion

Side Score: 24
VS.

we're crazy

Side Score: 20

This is my opinion, when I give a conservative an explanation, I do so not expecting the person to actually change his/her opinion, but I at least want my point heard and thought upon, trying to convey why I think his /her position is wrong, but that also cannot be expected from what I've observed.. even rationally broken down arguments are not accepted, that's kinda disappointing, however, I do give an explanation because I think everyone deserves one..

Side: we try to change their opinion
outlaw60(14178) Clarified
1 point

So your opinion is right and those that oppose your opinion are wrong ? Well i will have to say your are narrow minded because you need to right. Exactly what is destroying the American Left as of today ! And as you answered on this side of the poll just more proof how narrowed you are.

Side: we try to change their opinion
Cartman(18192) Disputed
1 point

So your opinion is right and those that oppose your opinion are wrong ?

You just described every single person in the world, you stupid fucking idiot. Do you have any opinions that you actually think are wrong? Why would you have an opinion that you think is wrong? That makes no sense.

Well i will have to say your are narrow minded because you need to right.

Thinking you are right has absolutely nothing to do with being able to change your mind.

Side: we're crazy
Cartman(18192) Disputed
1 point

The definition says conservatives favor tradition. It doesn't say that conservatives won't break from tradition.

Side: we're crazy
1 point

the next two lines also say they're against change...

If they do choose to change , they'd be failing the assertion that they're against change, as they have accepted to change......

Side: we try to change their opinion
2 points

I don't debate conservatives to change their minds. I debate them with the hopes they might open their minds a little.

I'm not so arrogant I expect people to accept all my arguments, as some people on the other side do for me. But it would be nice if more people took a less extreme approach and took a middle ground more often.

Conservatives have valid points. Liberals have valid points.

If we were able to see things from both sides, we'd get a much more 3D approach to the issue. Only listening to one side is like trying to throw a tennis ball in a bucket with one eye closed. You might succeed by blind chance, but if you open both eyes, suddenly you'll find yourself hitting that bucket much more often.

Side: we try to change their opinion

But it would be nice if more people took a less extreme approach and took a middle ground more often.

yupp, that's what I'm trying to convey, even if not right, a I feel a conservative should think upon what's being said.

Conservatives have valid points. Liberals have valid points.

the definition of liberals allows us to accept good points from either sides, but I don't see that that is the case with conservatism..

If we were able to see things from both sides, we'd get a much more 3D approach to the issue.

totally true, that would be the most productive, at the same time I feel it is necessary for everyone to understand and respect each other's idea, rather than blindly disputing.

Side: we try to change their opinion
Quantumhead(733) Disputed
1 point

Conservatives have valid points

Nah. At least I'm yet to hear one.

Side: we're crazy
catninja(249) Disputed
1 point

I think there is truth to some conservative arguments. Conservatives believe everything is a matter of individual choice and free will. I don't fully agree with that as I believe there are wider societal structures that can unconsciously influence people.

Approaching a subject with a purely conservative mindset is like when you're gardening and you can easily identify the weeds. You cut off the bits of weeds that you can see instead of pulling them up at the roots. You're addressing the symptom, or the bit that's showing, but you aren't addressing all the ugly bits underneath.

Similarly, I think approaching a subject with a purely liberal mindset is like being not quite sure what needs pulling up in your garden because you can't discern everything that's harmful. You're trying too hard to see into the soil for the roots but you don't want to try pulling anything up to find out, in case you pull up something that isn't a weed.

That might be a silly analogy, sorry if it seems that way.

Extreme conservatives believe strict gender roles are the best for society, while extreme liberals want to see them done away with entirely. Gender roles can give you a very strong sense of self and sense of belonging, which helps keep society harmonious. They avoid domestic discord and they have some basis in nature, however tenuous you may argue that basis is. While liberalism allows people to break those chains and do what they want in life, extreme liberalism (such as radical feminism) criticises those who genuinely feel comfortable in those gender roles and willingly choose them. This means that people do not fill roles that they feel suited to, making them feel lost.

Bear in mind I don't believe gender roles should be enforced upon anyone, and I completely accept that many women feel more comfortable in careers than they do as a housewife. But they do have some plus sides which is why they were around for so long, and while people should be given equal opportunities they shouldn't be forgotten altogether.

Another topic is crime. Conservatives often believe that crime results from broken homes and bad parenting. There is some evidence to suggest that offenders, especially young ones, may be more likely to come from single-parent families. Single parents may have difficulty juggling the jobs they need to survive with disciplining a child. There is the argument that the child may not get enough attention from their parent and start behaving badly to get that attention.

Obviously, liberalism adds more to this picture. A lack of government support means single parents are faced with more financial pressure. They are more likely to live in poorer areas with worse educational access and simply don't have the money or resources to send their child to a different school. The schools themselves are underfunded and often can't spare the resources for an intervention if a child behaves poorly, is not attending school or is not working hard. And so on, until the child reaches adulthood and is trapped in poverty because of unemployment in the area, because they can't afford to move to somewhere where there are jobs and because they did not have the same educational opportunities as other people who may be applying for the jobs.

Conservatism can often be quite a shallow investigation of the issue. I agree that in a policy-making sense, it won't do much long-term good for tackling social problems. But there are often nuggets in a conservative argument that can be actually sound points, as long as you take care to remove the external shell of religious reasoning and / or "it's just the way things should be".

Side: we try to change their opinion

You debate us because you are interested in how successful, hard working adults think as opposed to how people with no success or ambition who whine and make excuses for everything think.

Side: we try to change their opinion
Quantumhead(733) Disputed
1 point

successful, hard working adults

I see them more as parasitic thieves who force society to work for their own benefit and then fight over the scraps they leave. Not really much different to the slavemasters of the old west.

people with no success or ambition

Well, here's the thing. If you are arbitrarily going to define what "success" and "ambition" actually are, it isn't surprising that you are going to find us lacking in both. Have you ever considered that we just don't buy into your bullshit opinion about what "success" is or how it is achieved in the first place? And that's perhaps why we lack "ambition"?

Side: we're crazy
1 point

I see them more as parasitic thieves who force society to work for their own benefit and then fight over the scraps they leave. Not really much different to the slavemasters of the old west

So let's take it from them, give it to the government and work like slaves for THEM. You think Trump is an evil thug, but would gladly hand him omnipotent control. Mindless...

Side: we try to change their opinion
outlaw60(14178) Clarified
1 point

Stupidity reigns in your twisted world because you are nothing but stupid and clueless.

Side: we try to change their opinion
1 point

I see them more as parasitic thieves who force society to work for their own benefit and then fight over the scraps they leave. Not really much different to the slavemasters of the old west.

Thieves? So if you work and get a paycheck you are a thief? No wonder liberals are confused and angry. They don't want to work, so obviously anyone who does is a thief. All while the poor in America are doing better than the middle class all over the world and individual average wealth in America is the highest is American history...

Side: we try to change their opinion
1 point

Well, here's the thing. If you are arbitrarily going to define what "success" and "ambition" actually are, it isn't surprising that you are going to find us lacking in both. Have you ever considered that we just don't buy into your bullshit opinion about what "success" is or how it is achieved in the first place? And that's perhaps why we lack "ambition"?

If you would gladly take from someone else to help the poor, but can't reach for your own wallet to help the poor, you are a thief and a hypocrite.

Success is giving from your own pocket. Most liberals have a lock on their own personal wallets, but will demand you open up yours in a heart beat. You can go to college, work hard, get promotions, etc, and a liberal will simply say "you didn't earn that." Really? Bullshit. I know one thing for sure. The liberal trying to take mine to pay someone else sure as hell didn't earn it to give it.

Side: we try to change their opinion
1 point

Because there is always hope that one person will take a step back and say, "you know what? Let me think on that, you bring up some points I hadn't thought of before."

But also, it's interesting to see their side of things too.

Side: we try to change their opinion

But also, it's interesting to see their side of things too

exactly, I think it is basic mutual respect to reflect upon another's ideas.

Side: we try to change their opinion

To change their opinions.

And, of course, if it happens, they won't be the conservatives they started the debate as.

Also to see why they believe certain things - but that's just my interest for justifications of people.

Side: we try to change their opinion

And, of course, if it happens, they won't be the conservatives they started the debate as.

that right there is one of the many boundaries of conservatism..

Side: we try to change their opinion
1 point

Hello beast:

I DON'T write for them.. You're right.. They'll NEVER get it. I write for another audience. These dingbats aren't the only ones reading it.

excon

Side: we're crazy

yup!! they don't want to listen to us even when they know we're right......

Side: we're crazy
outlaw60(14178) Clarified
1 point

What has a Leftist ever been right on ? The end of the earth due to Climate Chaos ? That hasn't worked out. Muslims are the Religion of Peace ? Are they really ? No that hasn't worked out. Government involved in healthcare was going to be nirvana but is a full blown disaster. That hasn't worked out well. So really what are those on the Left ever really been right about ?

Side: we try to change their opinion
outlaw60(14178) Clarified
1 point

"I DON'T write for them.. You're right.. They'll NEVER get it. I write for another audience. These dingbats aren't the only ones reading it"

CON you write for another audience so you say can you tell that other audience about your tour in Vietnam and the number of kills you had ?

Side: we try to change their opinion
beastforever(542) Clarified
1 point

no, but he does so to talk about people like you so that we can together have a good laugh.

Side: we try to change their opinion
1 point

What you Leftist just don't understand is Conservatism put Hillary Clinton on the shelf and Barack Obama put her there with 8 years of attacks on Conservatism. What did the attacks on Conservatism cost the American Left ? 2010 midterms , 2014 midterms and the 2016 Presidential Election. The American Left is struggling to win elections but in the end they better pay attention because "The Boy Wonder" Barack Obama put their party in the position they are in today and that is dire straits.

Side: we're crazy
beastforever(542) Clarified
1 point

have you read that I'm not talking about political parties? I'm talking about ideologies.

Side: we try to change their opinion
Quantumhead(733) Disputed
1 point

What you Leftist just don't understand is Conservatism put Hillary Clinton on the shelf

And gave us Donald Trump? A man who demonstrably lies more than Hitler, has been accused of four rapes, is the defendant in 75 different legal cases and who hired a senior Goldman Sachs executive to run the economy. Yeah, thank heaven for Conservatives.

And who can forget George W Bush and Dick Cheney? The guys who undid 50 years of civil rights progress in 8 years, lied to every American about Saddam's WMD capability and non-existent "ties" with al Qaeda, sanctioned (if not directly assisted) the 9/11 attacks, and tried to have one of their own CIA agents murdered by releasing her name to the press in retaliation for her husband refusing to lie about a non-existent uranium deal involving Saddam's son.

Side: we try to change their opinion

For me it's just something I like to do when I smoke weed. It entertains me because I know that, sooner or later, I'm going to make them look stupid.

Side: we're crazy
beastforever(542) Clarified
2 points

you're right, the funniest part is that they don't know that they look stupid.

Side: we try to change their opinion
DBCooper(2194) Disputed
1 point

Only ones that are stupid are Democrats not hard to prove that.

Side: we try to change their opinion
Cartman(18192) Disputed
1 point

You yet again proved that you think you are a Democrat. Good job.

Side: we're crazy

Most intelligent people can see the so called changes that comes from Liberals. They include....

No restriction abortions of viable babies for any reason up to birth.

Forcing all public schools to allow so called Transgender boys with disorders (who know nothing of life or who they are) into our daughter's bathrooms.

Forcing Churches to allow Gay Sunday school teachers even though Homosexuaity goes against their Christian faith.

Forcing Christian family owned businesses to cater things that go against their faith.

Forcing Americans to give up their conceiled weapons used for protection.

Forcing even Prolife people to pay for medicaid funded abortions.

Are you starting to grasp what the Left does? Did you notice how the Left's idea of change, is FORCING ALL AMERICANS TO BOW TO THEIR DEMANDS!

Conservatives are all open to change IF it is good change and not FORCED on the people against their will.

Side: we're crazy
Quantumhead(733) Disputed
2 points

No restriction abortions of viable babies for any reason up to birth.

You say "any reason" but the reality is that almost all women have abortions for the same reason: they feel they aren't going to be able to take proper care of their baby. Hence -- purely on account of your own religious bigotry -- you want to create a world where, instead of a fetus being aborted cleanly and humanely, it grows into a depressed, drug addicted convict.

Since nearly all of you want to repeal social security benefits too, you have created a curious situation in which you are "pro-life" only until the life reaches 18, at which point you suddenly don't give a shit if it lives or dies.

even though Homosexuaity goes against their Christian faith.

Let's not dress up what your "faith" (i.e. mental disorder) says about homosexuals.

“If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives.” (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)

Conservatives are all open to change IF it is good change and not FORCED on the people against their will.

Weird how you forced the Iraq War on people against their will then, huh? Public support was heavily against that war, but you still FORCED it on the people against their will.

In effect, nothing you say can be taken seriously, can it? It's all bullshit and most of it is derived from Christianity, a religion which worships a man as the son of God that there is no direct historical evidence even existed. Combined with your loud mouth, your abuse of reason is almost comical.

Side: we try to change their opinion
Cartman(18192) Disputed
1 point

Forcing all public schools to allow so called Transgender boys with disorders (who know nothing of life or who they are) into our daughter's bathrooms.

This isn't really a change. Where do you think transgender kids have been going to the bathroom?

Forcing Churches to allow Gay Sunday school teachers even though Homosexuaity goes against their Christian faith.

Deception on your part. Some gay people sued to be allowed to teach Sunday school and the courts did not agree with them.

Forcing Christian family owned businesses to cater things that go against their faith.

It is not a part of the Christian faith to not do your job.

Conservatives are all open to change IF it is good change and not FORCED on the people against their will.

You dumb mother fucker. This is the argument you are supposed to be making. It just ends up being a footnote to a dumb fucking rant. This is why I attack you. People think you are a conservative, but you really aren't.

Side: we try to change their opinion