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 Why is freedom so willingly given up? (13)

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TPARTY(31) pic



Why is freedom so willingly given up?

Freedom is the most basic human right.  Our founding fathers recognized that as soon as a government takes away certain liberties the only solutions are revolution, or revolution.  Humans share something no other species has: recognized rights.  We recognize that we have basic rights like speech, thought, religion and others that cannot be taken away by anyone.  However, when a government says something has to be taken away because the planet will die, or polar bears won't have ice to sit on, or someone will be offended, so many are quick to give away their rights.  So why is it that some are willing to give away liberties just because a government tells them?  Further, why are people afraid of freedom in the first place?

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Because they enjoy being sheep to the state. They love the idea of being told what to do. They love the idea that the government will protect them from failure.

Side: sheep
1 point

they also love the idea that they can leech of the working class and would rather be dependent off government bailouts and services then make a purposeful living... this sounds oddly familiar.

Side: sheep
1 point

Because people don't take the time to understand freedom nor do they understand what governments that take it lead to.

Side: Because they're uninformed
1 point

Freedom is important, I agree. As a general concept it is both desirable and beneficial. But to say that freedom is the end-all-be-all of human existence is simplistic. To say that every freedom given up is detrimental simply isn't true. The government isn't just sitting around scheming ways to stamp out liberty. And people aren't just willingly giving up freedoms because they are told to. In several cases, these things are happening because the people involved understand that it is for the greater good.

No matter how independent you may be, you aren't alone in society. Few of us are self-sufficient enough to survive completely unaided. Fewer still have divorced themselves from society entirely. If you are a part of a community, your actions can and will affect others. And the actions of others will affect you. People can cause harm to themselves, to other people, or to society as a whole by exercising their freedoms. Some do this intentionally while many do it completely unwittingly. Neither scenario is in the best interests of the whole group. This is a primary reason why governments pass laws in the first place.

Every law is technically an infringement of freedom; you cannot do this or you must do that, and failure to comply will have consequences. Some laws don't really cause much of a problem in this regard. Almost everybody understands that rape and murder are wrong, so laws against these actions are only taking away a freedom most people wouldn't exercise anyway. But some people will, so it provides a system of punishing these people and hopefully protecting the rest. This can provide a model for how laws should be made. But few things in life are that black and white. Sometimes we need to place a control on things that are less obviously wrong. The first thing you mentioned was environmental restrictions, so I will use that as an example.

Freedom doesn't provide as much gain when quality of life is minimal. Environmental problems happen in an open system. Pollution in one area can have drastic affects on an otherwise clean area many miles away. Poor air quality can lead to poor soil and water quality. Some resources that we depend on can be wiped out before they can be replenished if used without restriction. Actions have consequences. Once we understand those consequences, we need to do something about it, lest the majority (of which you are likely a part) suffer. It may not be convenient, but inconvenience is a small price to pay to maintain the best quality of life possible. And not just for us, but for other countries and for future generations as well.

Polar bears, being powerful predators, are most likely keystone species in their territories. Threatening their survival could devastate their ecosystem. It is immoral and irresponsible to allow that to happen. Besides, how are efforts to preserve them threatening my freedom?

As far as freedom of speech: if you are talking about proposed censorship of the internet, I fully agree with you. But if you are referring to people like Juan Williams or Dr. Laura, remember that the government didn't get involved. That is between them and their employers. Juan Williams, as a public figure, was a spokesman for NPR. He knew that, and had been warned about how his words in the past. He exercised his freedom in saying what he said, NPR exercised their freedom in firing him, and Fox exercised their freedom in giving him a more lucrative contract. The government never got involved, so no freedom of speech was violated. And if people in your day to day life don't like what you are saying, they have the freedom to tell you that. You may not like it, but freedom is being practiced.

None of us have the freedom to avoid reality. So we give up freedoms from time to time, not because we are misinformed, but because it is the best thing for all concerned.

Side: Sometimes for the greater good
TPARTY(31) Disputed
1 point

I would argue that it is common sense we should use and that laws should be minimal. Laws are seemingly put on anything that could cause a problem rather than leaving up to people's best judgement as to what they should and shouldn't do. Say the state of Georgia has the worst energy policies imaginable and it affecting the country, would it not be in their interest to change their policies? Instead, when Gerogia has a bad energy policy, everyone must adopt an energy policy to "protect" their bad policies from being adopted in the first place. The idea of liberties means that you have certain responsibilities that you are trusted with to have freedom in the first place.

The most effective way to learn is from our mistakes, and I argue that government is not the one to tell me that I'm hurting the environment, I should recognize that I am. That is part of the responsibility, recognizing the wrongs.

The government has gotten involved the the free speech issue in that the FCC has, via the net neutrality act, sought to control sources of media and communication. The FCC has no place in the constitution nor should it be allowed to regulate any sort of media. If I want to start as conservative website and want to block any liberal-leaning websites from being advertised, that is my choice. If I offend people with my broadcasts or blog posts or whatever, I can offend that person it is not the FCC's job to regulate what I put on my site or broadcast. Further, things like prostitution, gambling, smoking, drinking, are all choices. Judge Napalitano (sp) stated that these are all habits and really shouldn't have laws against them. If you choose to gamble, that is your bad. If you choose to hook up with a prostitute, it is at your own risk.

I understand that laws are meant to be the framework of morals, however, what our founders thought was that only certain laws shouls be handled by the State and the rest should be handled through retribution and direct contact with those who you've committed the crime against. Laws can and should be streamlined, which brings me to my point. Although I understand what you are saying, the point is that you are right. Every law is an infringement on freedom, therefore laws should be minimal. Even though it might not be good to do this or that at the time, someone will notice and do something about it.

we are at the point now that laws are becoming global. Cap and trade is a perfect example. My point is that we should really start to consider what laws we are supporting and how many there really are. On the FDA's website alone there are some 30 laws dealing with food. While they may be in the interest of people, where did the FDA aquire the right to create these laws. Further, are they really necessary, as you stated, they are infringements on freedom. If a company makes bad food, they're not going to sell much. The contaminations have, and will continue to happen no matter how many laws you have.

Side: Sometimes for the greater good
imrigone(761) Disputed
1 point

As far as the specific issues, you and I are largely in agreement. Particularly on net neutrality. As far as things like smoking, gambling, prostitution, etc. I agree that outright prohibition would be detrimental. And I would add marijuana and other drugs to the list. However, completely abandoning restrictions and government oversight on these issues is not always beneficial. You identify these as choices, and they are, but the results of choices are not always limited to the person making the choices. Smoking is the best example (and at this point I will point out that I am a smoker, and that I live in one of the states that has completely banned indoor smoking aside from private residences and tobacco shops.) When I smoke I am most directly hurting myself. But second-hand and third-hand (the lingering residue found in a place where heavy smoking has occurred) can both hurt people who would never touch a tobacco product intentionally. It has been argued that my freedom to smoke infringes on their freedom to breathe clean air; but also that their freedom to breathe clean air infringes on my freedom to smoke. Something has got to give. In this case, freedom for the sake of freedom can't solve the issue since somebody's freedom is infringed upon regardless. The non-intervention approach was deemed a failure because cigarette smoke cannot be contained in one section of a building and lingers for some time after smoking has stopped. Added to that was the fact that very few establishments banned smoking entirely because having the option was deemed better for business. Business owners complained of infringement of their right to maintain a smoking section, but once the playing field was leveled the free market carried on. The very few places that were forced to close were crappy establishments to begin with, while superior establishments had regained the business of smokers who had been alienated in the first place and thrive quite nicely. Plus, places that maintain a smoker's patio can expand their client base without hurting anyone. At first, having to step outside to smoke was a nuisance, but now that I'm used to it, I have no problems giving away my right to smoke at the bar. Not because I am uninformed, but because it serves the greater good; it serves more benefit than harm.

As far as environmental issues, those have similar characteristics to smoking, but even more hurdles to overcome. The range of problems is much more vast, and so is the scale. The problems associated usually take time to accumulate, and often do so in an almost invisible fashion. 9 times out of 10 we don't understand the scenario until the negative affects are staring us in the face. And the negative affects don't just hurt our health, they can limit economic potential as well by reducing resource yields and the variety of possibilities we have available. In contrast, responding to these situations increases not only our knowledge base but our technological potential as well. But the new technologies are expensive and often untested, so finding investors, especially in times of economic hardship, is extremely difficult. And without those investors, we cannot properly fine tune the tech, to say nothing of actually dealing with the problem. Once we get through the transitional phase, the economic prospects look very promising. The problem is, the businesses are concerned with being able to actually weather the transitional phase itself, and are therefore understandably reluctant to enter that phase. But their reluctance doesn't solve the problem, indeed the situation gets exponentially worse as they drag their feet in the mud. I would prefer to use incentive to get them to do the right thing as opposed to coercion, and this is the direction many are trying to advocate. LEED certification is an example. But the incentives proposed so far are not able to create the desired result on their own. And time is of the essence. Coercion is sometimes faster.

Getting the markets to deal with the problem isn't the only challenge. Citizens are just as slow to adapt. Most people just don't have the knowledge to properly comprehend what is going on. LET ME MAKE THIS NEXT POINT VERY CLEAR: I am NOT saying most people are stupid. I AM saying that these issues are incredibly complex. It doesn't matter what side of the global warming debate you are on, to be able to competently understand the issue and evaluate what your preferred news source is telling you, you need varying levels of knowledge in: physics, calculus, statistical analysis, chemistry, ecology, watershed, computer systems, geology & soil science, general technology and mechanics, atmospheric science/meteorology, environmental history, biology, economics, policy as well as finely-tuned critical thinking skills. It also helps to actually use the equipment and formulas involved. And once you have these skills you need to actually SEE the data gathered in the field, not the watered down, pre-interpreted crap that advocacy groups and pundits peddle to us. I am learning all of this stuff in my program at college, and it is often overwhelming. Even I feel inadequate to the task of comprehending these concepts at the moment. The more I learn the more I realize how difficult it is for most people to make an informed decision. And it doesn't help that the media regularly clouds both sides of the debate. I don't accuse people of being stupid, I accuse the subject matter of being too confusing and time-consuming for most people to wrap their head around. It is much more efficient, quick, and cost effective to take the data straight to the policy makers and hope to hell they make the right choice, while simultaneously informing the public as best we can.

Damn, I apologize for going on for so long. Take it as a compliment to your debate and intelligence.

To wrap up: different problems have different solutions. Causes have effects. Everything is connected. Your choices can make things worse for innocent third parties. Freedom is very important, but to say it trumps all other concerns all of the time is too simplistic. Freedom is most useful when paired with knowledge. And our knowledge leads us to answers we don't always like, but have to accept anyway. Occasionally that answer is that pure freedom is not going to save the day.

Side: Sometimes for the greater good
1 point

I believe you are referring to the social contract. According to Thomas Jefferson Social Contract theory, the declaration of independence or John Locke's Second Treatise of Civil Government, governments were instituted amongst men by the power of the people, who in turn agreed to give some of their freedom and rights in return for protection from the government. As society progresses in the fight against terrorism, the freedom and rights of the people will come in conflict with the social authority of the government. One such example is the Patriot act which provides federal law enforcement officials with the authority to examine personal records, bank accounts, medical and library records, conduct searches without warrants, and also taps into the telephone. Then there is alo the Military Commissions Act of 2006, which authorizes the military to try terrorists, allows hear say evidence to be admitted and stripping detainees of the right to file for habeaus corpus. So the people are expected to provide loyalty for the government that they are ruled by, and if the ruler is abusing its power then the people has the right to vote them out of power. Therefore, it is a social contract in which there are benefits on both ends of the agreement, people get protection and thus give up their rights to the government in exchange.

Side: Sometimes for the greater good
1 point

Only one reason to give up freedom...you are lazy and don't want to want to take responsibility for your self!

Side: Sometimes for the greater good