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58
33
Statement is fine Statement is bad
Debate Score:91
Arguments:101
Total Votes:96
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 Statement is fine (43)
 
 Statement is bad (32)

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Cartman(18205) pic



Women Don't Deserve Equal Pay Unless They Do As Good A Job As Men

Hillary Clinton brought up the most ridiculous nonsense about equal pay for women. She accused Trump of saying "Women don't deserve equal pay unless they do as good a job as men." She framed this as something negative.  Do you think the quote from Trump is appropriate to be said?

Statement is fine

Side Score: 58
VS.

Statement is bad

Side Score: 33
4 points

This is incredibly backwards and proves that Clinton (and feminists) don't want equal pay. They want more pay for women than they deserve. If you don't do as good a job you get paid less. That's how it is for men competing with other men, why should women competing against men not be held to that standard? Why should women get equal pay for doing a worse job?

Side: Statement is fine
IAmSparticus(1516) Clarified
1 point

I think this was poorly articulated, and I assume she meant to refer to arguments against equal pay that allude to things such as maternity leave, as opposed to quality of work.

But that's giving her a bit tooooooo much benefit of the doubt.

Side: Statement is fine
3 points

Maybe, but she sounds like every other feminist who isn't trying to make that argument.

Side: Statement is fine
gigi48308(10) Clarified
1 point

No he actually said it. She worded it correctly. He was asked the question about women's pay and if he felt they should get paid the same and he said Yes, as long as they do the same job. He is saying he will pay for the job not the person and people spun it as he did not want equal pay. It is a twist on his words.

Side: Statement is fine

Makes sense to me. You shouldn't be given a one-up just because you're a woman, you should be treated the same as a man and be paid on merit and performance.

Side: Statement is fine

In a capitalist society everyone should be paid and appointed exclusively on merit, and other issues such as gender should not enter the equation at all.

Once a society imposes ''positive discrimination'' laws, (which is happening in the U.k.,) then the efficiency of it's industry, commerce and government will go into decline.

The success of a company is almost always attributable to the intuitive senses of it's boss(es) and their business acumen.

Once their freedom to use their natural intuition is removed then the wrong people will be appointed into key positions for all the wrong reasons and the business will suffer.

This principle applies to people being paid/appointed due to their race, gender, political persuasion or religion, or just to facilitate whatever whimsical law of the day exists and not because of their suitability and qualifications to fill the post available.

Side: Statement is fine
2 points

First, some fairly objective statistics...

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/04/14/on-equal-pay-day-everything-you-need-to- know-about-the-gender-pay-gap/

Second, the flaw in your argument is it explains that women nationwide make 77% what men make because their work isn't as good. How is it physically possible in a nation more than half women that essentially either all of them do horrible horrible jobs, or, that a handful do reasonable jobs but the rest must be so bad it's a miracle they aren't fired in droves? Ahem. The fact that nationwide women earn 77% simply cannot be explained by they don't do as good of jobs. It could only be true if the most severe of sexist stereotypes were actually true.

Third, since men hold the majority of power the judgment on whether or not women have done as good of a job rests in male power. Self serving.

Do me a favor, go home, and tell your mother and your wife and your sister exactly the argument you just made here on this debate website and see how it goes. Odds are you only dare say these things to the men in your lives. That's a terrible mistake.

Side: Statement is fine
Cartman(18205) Disputed
3 points

the flaw in your argument is it explains that women nationwide make 77% what men make

You forgot the key part "According to the White House,". It doesn't fucking matter what figure lying Obama gives, that statistic is bullshit.

How is it physically possible in a nation more than half women that essentially either all of them do horrible horrible jobs, or, that a handful do reasonable jobs but the rest must be so bad it's a miracle they aren't fired in droves? Ahem.

Because they do different fucking jobs.

The fact that nationwide women earn 77% simply cannot be explained by they don't do as good of jobs.

It's that they don't do the jobs that men are doing.

Third, since men hold the majority of power the judgment on whether or not women have done as good of a job rests in male power. Self serving.

Conspiracy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Do me a favor, go home, and tell your mother and your wife and your sister exactly the argument you just made here on this debate website and see how it goes.

My mom is a Republican. She says that it is fucking stupid to pay her more if she doesn't accomplish as much.

Odds are you only dare say these things to the men in your lives.

My argument is that we shouldn't be looking at the gender of the person to decide their pay. Who is the sexist one here?

Side: Statement is fine
Grenache(5568) Disputed
1 point

OK, so here's an alternate source: http://freakonomics.com/podcast/the-true-story-of-the-gender-pay-gap-a-new-freakonomics-radio-podcast/

As for women doing different jobs, no, what century do you live in? Women doctors make less than the male doctor next to them, same as office managers, bus drivers, and on and on.

As for "conspiracy!!" - history is rife with the group in charge taking advantage of individuals from groups which aren't - Blacks, Native Americans, immigrants, and on and on.

As for your mom being Republican and agreeing with you - that explains a lot about you and your family.

And as for gender shouldn't have to be a part of the decision - I can agree with that - so show me men paying women fairly because they earned it. Show me please. Because I don't believe that's true most of the time. My wife and I are in different fields but we both have Masters degrees. I make substantially more than her. And it wasn't because she stopped to have kids along the way, no, we're just now doing that. And it isn't because she doesn't know what she's doing or doesn't do a good job. And it is indeed true that she has male peers comparable to her at work who already earn more. It's a racket. And you and Trump making your daring statements about it are only alienating more women.

Side: Statement is fine
Sabotage6(1) Disputed
2 points

1. Women work less hours than men.In 2015, employed men recorded working an average 42 minutes per day longer than employed women.

2. There is no systemic sexism in hiring regardless of what politicians are saying.

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/ statements/2012/jun/21/barack-obama/barack-obama-ad-says-women-are-paid-77-cents-dolla/

3. Every study currently available shows that when controlled for choice, profession, hours worked and negotiated pay the gap lowers to about the average of the hours worked differential.

https://www.aei.org/publication/new-bls-report-on-womens-earnings-much-of-the-17-gender-pay-gap-in-2014-explained-by-age-marriage-hours-worked/

4. Men work in more dangerous professions where specialty pay is higher.

Side: Statement is bad
1 point

From your source:

"Nothing in our analysis suggests that gender discrimination doesn’t exist. In fact, the experts we consulted agreed that no matter how much you adjust the models to equalize for outside factors, a difference in pay between men and women remains, and it’s one that can’t be explained away."

Side: Statement is fine
1 point

If you see fair capitalism as meritocratic(in which it largely is), then the statement is fine.

Hillary Clinton believes women deserve equal pay for the same job as men, so it is based more on gender wage equality rather than merit to her.

Side: Statement is fine
2 points

That's not equality. That's the opposite of equality. Hillary wants women to be treated better than men.

Side: Statement is fine
2 points

Matriarchy! Female domination.

Women's payback in society.

Side: Statement is fine
DS0330(267) Clarified
1 point

Though, I would like to know how gender wage equality is the "opposite" of equality.

I see it as enforced economic equality towards the working class.

Side: Statement is fine

Ok, women that work as hard as men do deserve equal pay. Now this being said, women have traditionally strived for office jobs sitting in the air conditioning with little to no physical requirements. For the most part men physically built this country. If women truly want to be equal you need to do your part too. All the cries for equal pay involve office jobs. There arent any women who are mechanics, electricians, ect. that are good at their job complaining about equal pay because there arent issues of equal pay in those fields. You need to get your hands dirty just as men do and have throughout this countrys history. I have worked with female mechanics just as or more capable than their male counterparts at hands on work so i know it can be done but when i bring these ideas to women they pull the well im a women card and cant be expected to do these things.

Side: Statement is fine

Yea, when I heard it during the debate, I thought - um, what's wrong with that...

I think I figured out what she meant (though it definitely didn't come across).

She's taking Trump's statement that "You’re gonna make the same if you do as good a job" to mean:

1) that women really aren't paid less for equal work

and/or

2) that he does not support any new legislation like the Paycheck Fairness Act that she supports.

Side: Statement is bad
Cartman(18205) Disputed
1 point

1) It is true. Women really aren't paid less. The pay gap is a lie.

2) Why should he support new legislation that already exists?

Side: Statement is fine
1 point

1) It is true. Women really aren't paid less. The pay gap is a lie.

Both sides are hyperbolic on this issue - the discrepancy is more than 0 as some would suggest and the average pay for a woman and the average pay for a man aren't the numbers to compare as others repeatedly use.

ref ref

2) Why should he support new legislation that already exists?

The Paycheck Fairness Act is currently a proposal, not law - it will need support from Congress and the President (whomever that is.)

Side: Statement is bad