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Debate Info

50
80
Yes. (Why?) Of course not! (Why?)
Debate Score:130
Arguments:112
Total Votes:144
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Argument Ratio

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 Yes. (Why?) (44)
 
 Of course not! (Why?) (60)

Debate Creator

Satori(39) pic



Would God seriously send this man to Hell?

OKAY. Imagine this hypothetical:

There exists a man. This man is loving, compassionate, tenacious, and gentle. He gives to charity and helps those in need, expecting no reward. He attends church every sunday and is a devout Christian. He respects the beliefs of others and has taken to looking through non-biased books about other religions to better equip him for conversation should it ever come up. He is good to children and elderly alike (helping them out at Youth Centers or Retirement Homes), respects the environment, and obeys the law. His criminal record is nonexistant.

He does no drugs and hardly ever drinks.

There is one "catch". This man is homosexual and has no intention to make an attempt to "convert", for he firmly believes that God will love and accept him for who he is. He is in a committed relationship with another man. The relationship is built upon genuine love and appreciation of each other's character, rather than sexuality.

 

QUICK NOTE:

Atheists and Agnostics may participate, but no "God isn't real, so..." comments. This is a question designed for theists. If you DO want to participate, just assume that God is real for a moment and provide a constructive response. (not asking you to not be Atheist, but just write your argument with a valid response please)

This is my first debate on this site. Sorry if it isn't the greatest... :P

 

Yes. (Why?)

Side Score: 50
VS.

Of course not! (Why?)

Side Score: 80

Basic premise here is that God exists with a nature that conforms to the general consensus amongst the different branches of Christianity. I do not accept this premise personally, but I am entertaining it for the sake of this argument.

Would he? Most certainly. Why wouldn't he?

God makes the rules at his whim, changes the rules at his whim, and selectively enforces the rules at his whim. God's whims have dictated that infinite torment is a reasonable punishment for finite sins (which themselves are determined by God's whims) committed within a finite timeline.

It doesn't matter, and it never mattered- the decks were stacked against this man from the get go. If God is everything that Christians claim him to be, he created the world knowing not only that mankind would sin, but which sins each individual human would commit, which ones would be damned for it, as well as which ones would be saved.

He created the very concept of sin. To sin is not to do something that is wrong or harmful in an objective sense- to sin is to violate an arbitrary rule based on God's own whims, even if indirectly. God also created the system of payment for sin. He didn't "have" to send his son to die for the sins of mankind; he makes the rules governing it; unless one accepts that God is not, in fact, omnipotent, then one must accept the fact that God has the capability to simply forgive all sin across the board. Rather than do this, he chose to make the earthly life of his son payment due to a passing whim, and furthermore to add additional caveats to it (eg. 'accepting jesus'), all the while knowing that many souls would be unable to go through with it- and yes, I say unable, because he already knows exactly what sins each will commit.

If there is a God at all, then Christians have something wrong somewhere- God cannot simultaneously be omnipotent, omniscient, and benevolent to mankind; such is fundamentally incompatible with the state of the world.

The only thing that could hope to save this man is Gods own whim. Fortunately for him, he seems to be a whimsical sort of God. Unfortunately, those whims rarely, if ever, work out in mankinds favor.

Side: Yes. (Why?)
2 points

God loves him. But just because he loves him does not mean he is guaranteed to go to Heaven. Every man is a sinner. God looks at all sin the same rather your straight or Gay. Rather you dont pay your bills or kill somebody God looks at sin the same and hates it and must Judge it. God loves all people not sin. God will not allow any sin into Heaven. Thats why Jesus paid the full price of sin on the Cross. You must be redeemed by the Redeemer which is Jesus. We don't deserve Heaven but with Gods Love he sent his son to pay the full price on the Cross to buy us back. We must receive Jesus to receive Salvation. Its Gods Grace alone why we can be saved not our works Ephesians 2:8-9. Because God loves us is the reason why he gives us Grace and saves us by his Grace and gives a chance to receive him with the conviction of the Holy Spirit. Once you hear the Gospel( the death, burial,and the resurrection of Jesus Christ) the Holy Spirit will convict you so that you may have Eternal Life. It doesn't matter if your gay or if your the best person in the World you still sin(disobey God's law) and will go to Hell unless you receive Jesus. The question is not if your good enough to go to heaven but its: Do you have Jesus or Not? So yes God will send him to Hell by his Permissive Will( what he allows) not his Decorative Will(what God directly causes). God has no joy in sending people to Hell but your automatically going to Hell unless you receive Jesus. Jesus Loves him and you; He has paid the full price of sin on the Cross but he must judge sin because he is Righteous and Holy. But because of his Love he made a way to Heaven through the Cross. He(Jesus) paid the price on the Cross and took our place for sins on that Cross. You must believe that Jesus is the son of God and that there is only One God which has three persons(The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit)equal in power,essence,etc... and that Jesus is the Only one that can save you. You must trust Jesus as your savior and must confess to Jesus that your a sinner going to Hell and that he is that person( Jesus is all God and all Man)who can save you from Hell. Ask Jesus to save your soul from Hell.

So yes God will send him to Hell if he does not receive Jesus as Savior. It clearly has nothing to do with his deeds. The Question is does have Jesus. If he does not he will go to Hell because God does not allow sin into heaven. There must be a Sacrifice for sin to be paid. Jesus was that Sacrifice and you must acknowledge that Jesus is that Sacrifice which paid for those sins. If you have any questions make me your ally or enemy.

Side: Yes. (Why?)
Apologetics7(31) Clarified
1 point

Im sorry I rushed reading and didnt realize that you said he was a devout Christian. No God will not send him to Hell.

Side: Yes. (Why?)
1 point

It is very clear in the Bible that engaging in Homosexual acts is a sin. Like with all Christian sins, the only way to be forgiven is through repentance, and a necessary part of repentance is understanding that you have sinned, and not to have the intention of repeating it.

Side: Yes. (Why?)
Satori(39) Disputed
1 point

What about this man's other good deeds, like charity, church, and love of his neighbors? Does that not matter in the eyes of God? Is EVERYTHING null and void when a Gay Man enters the picture?

Side: Of course not! (Why?)
Stryker(849) Disputed
2 points

What about this man's other good deeds, like charity, church, and love of his neighbors? Does that not matter in the eyes of God?

If one refuses to repent of their sin, any good deeds are irrelevant.

Is EVERYTHING null and void when a Gay Man enters the picture?

I believe I clearly stated that this is in regard to all sin, not just homosexuality.

Side: Yes. (Why?)

Honestly, none of us can answer for God, so I don't know. It says in the Bible that homosexuality is a sin so I'm going to say he might be sent to Purgatory. If you really want to know, why not just ask him? From what the Bible says though, homosexuality is not natural.

Side: Yes. (Why?)
Satori(39) Disputed
1 point

>Bible says though, homosexuality is not natural.

Homosexuality is indeed natural. Animals exhibit homosexual traits just the same as humans do. And we can compare humans with animals because we are mammals, more specifically primates, and we are living beings in the animal kingdom.

>Bible says

More like "Paul says". The four Gospels do not explicitly mention homosexuality, let alone call it out as unnatural or an abomination. Paul/Saul is a false prophet.

Side: Of course not! (Why?)
1 point

this man, although a devout believer, believes in the wrong god or other gods than the real god, Allah. This is an act of Shirk, and Shirk is one of the unforgivable sins.

“Surely whoever associates (others) with Allah, then Allah has forbidden to him the garden, and his abode is the fire; and there shall be no helpers for the unjust.” (Surah al-Mā’Ida 5:72)

Surely Allah does not forgive that anything should be associated with him, and forgives what is besides that to whomsoever He pleases, and whoever associates anything with Allah, he devises indeed a great sin.” (Surah an-Nisā’ 4:48)

“Do not associate aught with Allah; most surely polytheism is a grievous inequity.” (Surah Luqmān 31:13).

“And whoever associates anything with Allah, he devises indeed a great sin.” (Surah an-Nisā’ 4:48)

“And worship Allah and do not associate anything with Him.” (Surah an-Nisā’ 4:36)

Quite a few verses from the Quran mention the act of shirk, and, as you can see, it is not something to be taken lightly.

Plus, homosexuality? No i do not think this man would be admitted to paradise.

Side: Yes. (Why?)
1 point

The question as posed suggests that our good works mean anything to God in and of themselves. You are posing a works based religion that is contrary to the teachings of the bible. There is no mention in your hypothetical about repentance or faith. Works in and of themselves are useless.

Isaiah 64:5-7 shows that God discounts our good works when they are tied to an unrepentant heart.

Isaiah 64:5-7

5 You meet him who rejoices and does righteousness,

Who remembers You in Your ways.

You are indeed angry, for we have sinned—

In these ways we continue;

And we need to be saved.

6 But we are all like an unclean thing,

And all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags;

We all fade as a leaf,

And our iniquities, like the wind,

Have taken us away.

The New Testament shows that salvation is through God's grace not works

Ephesians 2:8-9

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Titus 3:4-7

4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, 5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

The bible defines homosexuality as a sin multiple times. Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13, Romans 1:26-28, 1 Corinthians 6:9-11, 1 Timothy 1:10, Jude 1:7. With salvation comes the desire to keep the commandments of God:

1 John 2:3-4

3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

John 14:20-21

20 At that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you. 21 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.”

Side: Yes. (Why?)

The only way to heaven has nothing to do with good works, therefore the way to hell has nothing to do with bad works. You are born headed to hell. (only a little child that has not reached an age where he can understand that he is a sinner and must be born again will go to heaven when they die. Or someone who is not capable of understanding. Once a person realizes right from wrong and understands about facing consequences, they then must face judgement when they die)

Romans 3:10 (KJV)

As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

Romans 3:23 (KJV)

For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

The only way to heaven is to first realize that you are born a sinner. That is why you sin. You are not a sinner because you sinned.

Next, you must know that because of sin there must be a price paid:

Romans 6:23 (KJV)

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

This price can be paid by you with an eternity in Hell, or you can accept the price that Jesus paid for your sin:

Romans 5:8 (KJV)

But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

To accept Jesus’ payment for your sin simply call on His name and ask Him to forgive your sins and save you:

Romans 10:9-13 (KJV)

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. [10] For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. [11] For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. [12] For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. [13] For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Side: Yes. (Why?)
1 point

As homosexuality is apparently a sin, I would say it's safe to assume God would send him to Hell. What a swell guy.

Of course I'm kind of ignorant when it comes to the bible, as I'm an Atheist, but I know Genesis and Leviticus comment on the act of homosexuality being not what God wants, as it is apparently a chosen path of Sin.

Also, Corinthians 6:9 - Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, :10 - nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

So even though this man is a major contributor to the well being of everyone around around him, including himself, and does nothing but spread love and happiness as much as he possibly can, we can ensure that good ol' God will happily throw his ass into eternal damnation and torture for the rest of time and even after, because he made himself and another man happy.

Maybe there's some fine print though, I don't know.

Side: Yes. (Why?)

There are millions and millions of Gay people in Heaven including those who were not celibate.

Side: Yes. (Why?)
-2 points
4 points

The man would go to hell because, in the Bible it clearly states that homosexuals will not inherit the Kingdom of God.

For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become accountable for all of it. James 2:10

If you have ever sinned in your life, you are also accountable for being a homosexual. Therefore you won't enter Heaven, anyways.

It's people themselves that sends themselves to hell.

1. No, God created us without asking. And he also created hell. You can't say we are sending ourselves down to hell, because we have no say in anything at all. You can't say we are sending ourselves to hell, becuase we won't believe in an invisible being. That is not fair to anyone.

2. What about all those poor children in poor countries who never heard of anyone called Jesus? Have they sent themselves to hell?

Side: Of course not! (Why?)
Srom(12197) Disputed
1 point

If you have ever sinned in your life, you are also accountable for being a homosexual. Therefore you won't enter Heaven, anyways.

I don't try to sin intentionally and as long as I follow God and do what He says then I'll go to Heaven.

No, God created us without asking. And he also created hell. You can't say we are sending ourselves down to hell, because we have no say in anything at all. You can't say we are sending ourselves to hell, because we won't believe in an invisible being. That is not fair to anyone.

God originally created Hell for Satan and his followers. It was never for humans. The only reason why now people are going there is because a lot of them followed the wrong religion or they just rejected God and never wanted anything to do with him.

2. What about all those poor children in poor countries who never heard of anyone called Jesus? Have they sent themselves to hell?

That's impossible because the Gospel is being preached everywhere. Everyone will get a chance to know who God is.

OT: This is going to be like last time, and I already know it will. You won't understand what I'm talking about and the situation will go on and on. I already know from last time we argued that you hardly even read what I said and only quoted little parts of what I said.

Side: Yes. (Why?)
Paradox44(736) Disputed
1 point

1. No, God created us without asking. 

How would he ask you if you didn't exist? This part of your argument is flawed.

And he also created hell.

Hell, originally, wasn't for humans. It was for fallen angels and Lucifer. That was the only purpose of Hell. Once man had sowed in the seeds of sin his soul became bound to sin and required salvation to escape it.

You can't say we are sending ourselves down to hell, because we have no say in anything at all.

This still doesn't make any sense.

Let's say you live in a city. You commit a crime in this city. They throw you in jail in this city without your "permission". Are you going to make the argument that you didn't send yourself to jail and want to go free because you didn't have a say in your imprisonment?

becuase we won't believe in an invisible being. 

How do you know God is invisible?

That is not fair to anyone.

It's completely fair and here's why.

God created two sinless beings. He gave these beings freedom so that they can choose to sin, but God commanded them to do otherwise. Man decided to sin. Man sowed the seeds of sin. Man had more children enveloped in sin. Man had plenty of children until we get to where we are now. You are one of those children who must blame this predicament on the one who caused this, which was man. Are you going to yell at the dead man? Or are you going to strive for goodness so that you may have it forever?

Side: Yes. (Why?)
1 point

2. What about all those poor children in poor countries who never heard of anyone called Jesus? Have they sent themselves to hell?

Lmfao. Agreed. Those people who go over to those countries and say they're doing it out of charity, then line up the starving villages and hand out bibles. Those pretentious dicks aren't doing it for charity, they're helping those people because they want a bigger demographic!

Side: Of course not! (Why?)
Satori(39) Disputed
1 point

Sorry, I have to side with Srom with your #1 there. We weren't in a position to ask to be created lmfao.

Side: Yes. (Why?)
2 points

Are you saying that Im going to Hell for being bisexual? .

Side: Of course not! (Why?)
Paradox44(736) Disputed
0 points

If God commands that only heterosexual individuals may enter heaven then yes, you must go to Hell if you are bisexual.

Side: Yes. (Why?)
2 points

People dont send themselves to Hell. No one chooses to suffer. Suffering is not something that you choose. Suffering is something God puts on people against their will.

Side: Of course not! (Why?)
Satori(39) Disputed
1 point

So... we're not going to even glance at all the other good things that this man has done in his life? Placing faith in God, giving to Charity, going to Church, studying religion, living happily, obeying the law... trying his best to obey the other laws? Loving thy neighbor, not committing adultery/being unfaithful to his partner...

I doubt that God's overlooking all of that because this guy's with another guy, and not even for inherently sexual purposes (note that their relationship is more about loving each other for who they are as people).

Dude, think for a minute. The man trusts that God will love and accept him for who he is, and he's done the best he could to be an amazing person and the promise of heaven has nothing to do with his behavior. He does it because he is a good human being. If God's going to betray that trust, then "God" isn't worth it. However on a personal level, I myself believe that God will not overlook this man's good qualities for one and one thing only. I love God, and God loves me back, for it is ultimately unconditional. The moment you strap a condition onto "Unconditional Love", it becomes meaningless.

Side: Of course not! (Why?)
Srom(12197) Disputed
1 point

So... we're not going to even glance at all the other good things that this man has done in his life? Placing faith in God, giving to Charity, going to Church, studying religion, living happily, obeying the law... trying his best to obey the other laws? Loving thy neighbor, not committing adultery/being unfaithful to his partner...

You're not saved when you give to charity or when you go to church. It's when you believe in Jesus Christ as your Savior and Lord. You follow Him tell the day you die and obey His commands.

I doubt that God's overlooking all of that because this guy's with another guy, and not even for inherently sexual purposes (note that their relationship is more about loving each other for who they are as people).

Everyone is going to be judge by God. Based on their actions, words, and thoughts. And everyone is going to be judged for what they all did as they were on this earth.

Side: Yes. (Why?)

I grew up a in the Plymouth Brethren community. There I've learned, that every sin is equal.

James 2:10 '' For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become accountable for all of it.''

There are a lot of christian people I know who do things the bible says isn't okay.

The bible is way too long and strict for somebody to follow every single law, and at the same time be a normal human being in our crazy society.

If God would send that man to hell, then he would send all other christians to hell, because you are born a sinner. But that doesn't have to happen, since he sacrifised his own son.

Did he sacrifise his son for all sins except the homosexual act? I doubt it.

Side: Of course not! (Why?)
Atrag(5445) Disputed
1 point

I think the point is that a christian should try their best not to sin.

Side: Yes. (Why?)
Apologetics7(31) Clarified
1 point

You must understand that God will send all to Hell unless you receive his son Jesus. God is Righteous and Holy and you cannot assume that God will let us all to Heaven because we cannot keep the Law. The purpose of the Law is that we know that were all helpless and need a savior. No no no no no: Just because Jesus died on the Cross does not mean everyone is already saved but must be justified to get to heaven. Salvation is a gift. Were going to Hell unless we receive Jesus.

Side: Yes. (Why?)
1 point

There is no reason for God to sacrifice his son just to save what ? A third of the human race? Jesus came to save people from hell, and just before he died he said "it is done". What is done? Evil is done!

Im not saying everyone goes to heaven, but hell was destroyed 2000 years ago, according to my personal interpretation of the bible.

Im not saying im right or wrong.

I dont believe in the bible.

Side: Yes. (Why?)
Paradox44(736) Disputed
0 points

God will send a man to hell if he continues an act that is deemed as sin and doesn't repent for this act. The laws in the old testament were always set for a reason. Those reasons may have expired by now. I would assume that God would requires abstinence until marriage for a gay couple since anyone wishing to marry must follow that law.

There are a lot of christian people I know who do things the bible says isn't okay.

Those individuals are to be held accountable for their actions.

The bible is way too long and strict for somebody to follow every single law

Most of those laws are common sense laws that are pretty easy to follow. This isn't a to do list. Most of the laws in the bible are telling you not to do things.

If God would send that man to hell, then he would send all other Christians to hell, because you are born a sinner.

He only sends the sinners who don't repent about their actions. Actually I wouldn't even say sends. He doesn't grant access to heaven. He doesn't really send anyone to hell. He only takes you to heaven.

Did he sacrifise his son for all sins except the homosexual act? I doubt it.

He sacrificed his son so that anyone who stretches their arms towards the covenant will be able to live in heaven forever. Those that continuously sin without repentance will fail to reach heaven.

Side: Yes. (Why?)
Apologetics7(31) Disputed
1 point

I completely agree on what your saying but when you stated that you must change your ways to go to heaven. Not true. You must recieve Jesus and trust him as your savior to get to Heaven. Repent in the Bible means a change of someones mind. What Does that mean? It means you must change your Mind about God and you. You must no longer believe that you're able to get to heaven on your own but that you need a savior. Repentance does not mean in the context that its a change of ways. If it was it would be legalism. Because changing your ways is work. Salvation is a Free gift from God. Romans 6:23. I encourage that you read the book of Romans verse by verse. Dont think that you must change your mind to be saved. Thats not what Jesus is saying. But what he is saying is that Mindset of that we can save ourselves( synergism/Legalism) must change into a Mindset of that you must be saved and its God alone that saves ( Monergism) through his son. That Christ is the Only way to Heaven. God Bless you and may the good Lord be with you.

Side: Of course not! (Why?)
2 points

I seriously, SERIOUSLY doubt that God's going to overlook every other beautiful quality that this man has simply because he's homosexual and refusing "treatment".

There's the skeleton of my argument. Come at me.

Side: Of course not! (Why?)

If there truly is a god(s) out there than I'm sure he or she/it/them wouldn't punish someone simply because of them having a different sexual orientation. If this god was truly a loving god, it would love and accept someone no matter what. Unfortunately that particular god probably isn't the Christian god. Why would the Christian god make homosexuals and punish them for making who they are. It absolutely makes no sense what so ever.

Side: Of course not! (Why?)
2 points

The Bible clearly states that anyone on the other side of this debate is going to hell. It is wrong to attempt to claim you know how God will judge this person.

Side: Of course not! (Why?)

No because my reason is 2 Samuel 1:26. .

Side: Of course not! (Why?)
2 points

I'm with you, Sitara. Not just as a fellow Bisexual, but also because that verse is freaking amazing ammunition here, and I'm already on this side of the argument lol.

Side: Of course not! (Why?)

100% awesome. I love it too. .

Side: Of course not! (Why?)
1 point

Of course he wouldn't go to hell. "YEESUS died for our sins" If you don't sin, Jesus died for nothing.

Also, how is this any worse than other christian hypocrites? Yes this guy is breaking a rule set by God and mentioned in the bible, but so do other christians.

Leviticus 19:19 states that "'Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material." Most true claimed true christians who have read the bible, still break this rule.

Side: Of course not! (Why?)
1 point

Actually I pick none of the reasons. My reason is that we leave this all to God, since there is only yes and no for this question so I just picked this. Anyway, we don't have the authority to say if he goes to Hell or not. And it is God's choice to choose to send that man to Hell.

Side: Of course not! (Why?)

All you have to do is accept Jesus as your savior. Hilter will probably be in heaven. I imagine he'll let homosexuals in as well.

Side: Of course not! (Why?)

I believe that God Is A loving god, a forgiving god. He loves us all sin or not, the truth is we are all sinners and god has no scale for deciding what sin is worse than the other. So a murderer who had killed 20 people but repented and in his heart he feel remorse and is truly sorry, may go to heaven.. A man or women who is god fearing and lives a life with love as you describe would be judge the same as the murderer. As long has our hearts are in the right place, we will all be forgiven. Jesus died for our sins, for a reason. We sin every day and may not even know it. I do believe that anyone who is gay has a better chance of going to heaven as the behind your back gossiper who is speaking ill of who ever is not around. People claim to be true Christians every day, but most of them are lying not just to the people around them but to themselves. God would not want us to judge anyone period. We are to love our neighbor and leave the judging up to god him self.

Side: Of course not! (Why?)
1 point

if i tell you this and tell you to break relation ship or turn heterosexual

Side: Of course not! (Why?)