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Would God seriously send this man to Hell?
OKAY. Imagine this hypothetical:
There exists a man. This man is loving, compassionate, tenacious, and gentle. He gives to charity and helps those in need, expecting no reward. He attends church every sunday and is a devout Christian. He respects the beliefs of others and has taken to looking through non-biased books about other religions to better equip him for conversation should it ever come up. He is good to children and elderly alike (helping them out at Youth Centers or Retirement Homes), respects the environment, and obeys the law. His criminal record is nonexistant.
He does no drugs and hardly ever drinks.
There is one "catch". This man is homosexual and has no intention to make an attempt to "convert", for he firmly believes that God will love and accept him for who he is. He is in a committed relationship with another man. The relationship is built upon genuine love and appreciation of each other's character, rather than sexuality.
QUICK NOTE:
Atheists and Agnostics may participate, but no "God isn't real, so..." comments. This is a question designed for theists. If you DO want to participate, just assume that God is real for a moment and provide a constructive response. (not asking you to not be Atheist, but just write your argument with a valid response please)
This is my first debate on this site. Sorry if it isn't the greatest... :P
Basic premise here is that God exists with a nature that conforms to the general consensus amongst the different branches of Christianity. I do not accept this premise personally, but I am entertaining it for the sake of this argument.
Would he? Most certainly. Why wouldn't he?
God makes the rules at his whim, changes the rules at his whim, and selectively enforces the rules at his whim. God's whims have dictated that infinite torment is a reasonable punishment for finite sins (which themselves are determined by God's whims) committed within a finite timeline.
It doesn't matter, and it never mattered- the decks were stacked against this man from the get go. If God is everything that Christians claim him to be, he created the world knowing not only that mankind would sin, but which sins each individual human would commit, which ones would be damned for it, as well as which ones would be saved.
He created the very concept of sin. To sin is not to do something that is wrong or harmful in an objective sense- to sin is to violate an arbitrary rule based on God's own whims, even if indirectly. God also created the system of payment for sin. He didn't "have" to send his son to die for the sins of mankind; he makes the rules governing it; unless one accepts that God is not, in fact, omnipotent, then one must accept the fact that God has the capability to simply forgive all sin across the board. Rather than do this, he chose to make the earthly life of his son payment due to a passing whim, and furthermore to add additional caveats to it (eg. 'accepting jesus'), all the while knowing that many souls would be unable to go through with it- and yes, I say unable, because he already knows exactly what sins each will commit.
If there is a God at all, then Christians have something wrong somewhere- God cannot simultaneously be omnipotent, omniscient, and benevolent to mankind; such is fundamentally incompatible with the state of the world.
The only thing that could hope to save this man is Gods own whim. Fortunately for him, he seems to be a whimsical sort of God. Unfortunately, those whims rarely, if ever, work out in mankinds favor.
God loves him. But just because he loves him does not mean he is guaranteed to go to Heaven. Every man is a sinner. God looks at all sin the same rather your straight or Gay. Rather you dont pay your bills or kill somebody God looks at sin the same and hates it and must Judge it. God loves all people not sin. God will not allow any sin into Heaven. Thats why Jesus paid the full price of sin on the Cross. You must be redeemed by the Redeemer which is Jesus. We don't deserve Heaven but with Gods Love he sent his son to pay the full price on the Cross to buy us back. We must receive Jesus to receive Salvation. Its Gods Grace alone why we can be saved not our works Ephesians 2:8-9. Because God loves us is the reason why he gives us Grace and saves us by his Grace and gives a chance to receive him with the conviction of the Holy Spirit. Once you hear the Gospel( the death, burial,and the resurrection of Jesus Christ) the Holy Spirit will convict you so that you may have Eternal Life. It doesn't matter if your gay or if your the best person in the World you still sin(disobey God's law) and will go to Hell unless you receive Jesus. The question is not if your good enough to go to heaven but its: Do you have Jesus or Not? So yes God will send him to Hell by his Permissive Will( what he allows) not his Decorative Will(what God directly causes). God has no joy in sending people to Hell but your automatically going to Hell unless you receive Jesus. Jesus Loves him and you; He has paid the full price of sin on the Cross but he must judge sin because he is Righteous and Holy. But because of his Love he made a way to Heaven through the Cross. He(Jesus) paid the price on the Cross and took our place for sins on that Cross. You must believe that Jesus is the son of God and that there is only One God which has three persons(The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit)equal in power,essence,etc... and that Jesus is the Only one that can save you. You must trust Jesus as your savior and must confess to Jesus that your a sinner going to Hell and that he is that person( Jesus is all God and all Man)who can save you from Hell. Ask Jesus to save your soul from Hell.
So yes God will send him to Hell if he does not receive Jesus as Savior. It clearly has nothing to do with his deeds. The Question is does have Jesus. If he does not he will go to Hell because God does not allow sin into heaven. There must be a Sacrifice for sin to be paid. Jesus was that Sacrifice and you must acknowledge that Jesus is that Sacrifice which paid for those sins. If you have any questions make me your ally or enemy.
It is very clear in the Bible that engaging in Homosexual acts is a sin. Like with all Christian sins, the only way to be forgiven is through repentance, and a necessary part of repentance is understanding that you have sinned, and not to have the intention of repeating it.
What about this man's other good deeds, like charity, church, and love of his neighbors? Does that not matter in the eyes of God? Is EVERYTHING null and void when a Gay Man enters the picture?
Well. My best defense here is to ask why homosexuality is a sin. The bible just states that it is bad, but refuses to explain why.
Ah, the Euthyphro Dilemma, "Is what is morally good commanded by God because it is morally good, or is it morally good because it is commanded by God?". While this is usually a great tool when in discussion with a theist, it is no defense here.
You see, because of the way you have structured this debate, we are assuming the existence of the Christian god. God makes the rules and the punishment, and has the power to enforce them. How God decides what is a sin is irrelevant in the context of this debate, and ultimately unknowable, at least until the Christian god can be demonstrated to exist.
So if God's the only one with the rulebook and the reasons for rules being in said book, why is it your guys' place to judge them? God can do that perfectly well on his own. If he hasn't given a reason, it's likely that he just pulled the rule out of nowhere to test you guys in the Old Testament. Jesus said that the OT laws don't apply anymore...
So if God's the only one with the rulebook and the reasons for rules being in said book, why is it your guys' place to judge them?
Well, I can judge them because I am capable of judging something, just because an entity has the power to enforce it's own rules doesn't mean I have to agree with them.
If he hasn't given a reason, it's likely that he just pulled the rule out of nowhere to test you guys in the Old Testament.
I would be interested to read how you concluded that this is likely.
Jesus said that the OT laws don't apply anymore...
Please support your assertion with Biblical Scripture.
Well, I can judge them because I am capable of judging something, just because an entity has the power to enforce it's own rules doesn't mean I have to agree with them.
...
Fine, I'll give you that. You've got your own free will, feel free to be judgmental, though it would back up the idea that you may use the Bible to justify your own prejudice. Let's not go there because that would be digressing from the original topic.
I would be interested to read how you concluded that this is likely.
Flip through the Bible and count how many times, before and after Leviticus/Deuteronomy he has tested somebody or allowed someone to be tested. For the latter, Job would rack up so many points in that area...
It's at the least plausible to conclude that God tested us with a few of these (IMO, ludicrously detailed) laws. He didn't give a reason for Homosexuality = STONE THE BASTARDS or Fabric Blending = NOT COOL.
---
Althought, I admit, for some of these rules like the No Pork Rule, it is very easy to say that God didn't give an explicit reason for banning the consumption of pork because he wasn't entirely sure how to explain bacteria to Hebrews who had no knowledge of how to cook pork properly and what caused you to get sick when you didn't cook it right. So he just said, "Don't eat pork" and the mortals listened.
Please support your assertion with Biblical Scripture.
I suppose I have to use bible verses to make sense... so here. c:
Hebrews 8:13: "By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear."
Hebrews 8:6: "But in fact the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, since the new covenant is established on better promises."
Hebrews 10:9: "Then he said, 'Here I am, I have come to do your will.' He sets aside the first to establish the second."
Hebrews 10:1-3: "The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming—not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship. Otherwise, would they not have stopped being offered? For the worshipers would have been cleansed once for all, and would no longer have felt guilty for their sins. But those sacrifices are an annual reminder of sins."
Alright, my apologies for the "Jesus Said That" claim. But it is mentioned :p
Honestly, none of us can answer for God, so I don't know. It says in the Bible that homosexuality is a sin so I'm going to say he might be sent to Purgatory. If you really want to know, why not just ask him? From what the Bible says though, homosexuality is not natural.
Homosexuality is indeed natural. Animals exhibit homosexual traits just the same as humans do. And we can compare humans with animals because we are mammals, more specifically primates, and we are living beings in the animal kingdom.
>Bible says
More like "Paul says". The four Gospels do not explicitly mention homosexuality, let alone call it out as unnatural or an abomination. Paul/Saul is a false prophet.
this man, although a devout believer, believes in the wrong god or other gods than the real god, Allah. This is an act of Shirk, and Shirk is one of the unforgivable sins.
“Surely whoever associates (others) with Allah, then Allah has forbidden to him the garden, and his abode is the fire; and there shall be no helpers for the unjust.” (Surah al-Mā’Ida 5:72)
Surely Allah does not forgive that anything should be associated with him, and forgives what is besides that to whomsoever He pleases, and whoever associates anything with Allah, he devises indeed a great sin.” (Surah an-Nisā’ 4:48)
“Do not associate aught with Allah; most surely polytheism is a grievous inequity.” (Surah Luqmān 31:13).
“And whoever associates anything with Allah, he devises indeed a great sin.” (Surah an-Nisā’ 4:48)
“And worship Allah and do not associate anything with Him.” (Surah an-Nisā’ 4:36)
Quite a few verses from the Quran mention the act of shirk, and, as you can see, it is not something to be taken lightly.
Plus, homosexuality? No i do not think this man would be admitted to paradise.
The only way to heaven has nothing to do with good works, therefore the way to hell has nothing to do with bad works. You are born headed to hell. (only a little child that has not reached an age where he can understand that he is a sinner and must be born again will go to heaven when they die. Or someone who is not capable of understanding. Once a person realizes right from wrong and understands about facing consequences, they then must face judgement when they die)
Romans 3:10 (KJV)
As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Romans 3:23 (KJV)
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
The only way to heaven is to first realize that you are born a sinner. That is why you sin. You are not a sinner because you sinned.
Next, you must know that because of sin there must be a price paid:
Romans 6:23 (KJV)
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
This price can be paid by you with an eternity in Hell, or you can accept the price that Jesus paid for your sin:
Romans 5:8 (KJV)
But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
To accept Jesus’ payment for your sin simply call on His name and ask Him to forgive your sins and save you:
Romans 10:9-13 (KJV)
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. [10] For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. [11] For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. [12] For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. [13] For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
As homosexuality is apparently a sin, I would say it's safe to assume God would send him to Hell. What a swell guy.
Of course I'm kind of ignorant when it comes to the bible, as I'm an Atheist, but I know Genesis and Leviticus comment on the act of homosexuality being not what God wants, as it is apparently a chosen path of Sin.
Also, Corinthians 6:9 - Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, :10 - nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
So even though this man is a major contributor to the well being of everyone around around him, including himself, and does nothing but spread love and happiness as much as he possibly can, we can ensure that good ol' God will happily throw his ass into eternal damnation and torture for the rest of time and even after, because he made himself and another man happy.
Maybe there's some fine print though, I don't know.
The man would go to hell because, in the Bible it clearly states that homosexuals will not inherit the Kingdom of God.
OT: I would like to clarify your statement about how "God" sends people to hell. It's people themselves that sends themselves to hell. They are the one's who chose to not follow Christ and so they will receive the penalty because they did that. The people who responded to God's calling and decided to follow Christ the best that they can will receive eternal life with Christ if they do what He says and they live a great Christian life.
The man would go to hell because, in the Bible it clearly states that homosexuals will not inherit the Kingdom of God.
For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become accountable for all of it. James 2:10
If you have ever sinned in your life, you are also accountable for being a homosexual. Therefore you won't enter Heaven, anyways.
It's people themselves that sends themselves to hell.
1. No, God created us without asking. And he also created hell. You can't say we are sending ourselves down to hell, because we have no say in anything at all. You can't say we are sending ourselves to hell, becuase we won't believe in an invisible being. That is not fair to anyone.
2. What about all those poor children in poor countries who never heard of anyone called Jesus? Have they sent themselves to hell?
If you have ever sinned in your life, you are also accountable for being a homosexual. Therefore you won't enter Heaven, anyways.
I don't try to sin intentionally and as long as I follow God and do what He says then I'll go to Heaven.
No, God created us without asking. And he also created hell. You can't say we are sending ourselves down to hell, because we have no say in anything at all. You can't say we are sending ourselves to hell, because we won't believe in an invisible being. That is not fair to anyone.
God originally created Hell for Satan and his followers. It was never for humans. The only reason why now people are going there is because a lot of them followed the wrong religion or they just rejected God and never wanted anything to do with him.
2. What about all those poor children in poor countries who never heard of anyone called Jesus? Have they sent themselves to hell?
That's impossible because the Gospel is being preached everywhere. Everyone will get a chance to know who God is.
OT: This is going to be like last time, and I already know it will. You won't understand what I'm talking about and the situation will go on and on. I already know from last time we argued that you hardly even read what I said and only quoted little parts of what I said.
I don't try to sin intentionally and as long as I follow God and do what He says then I'll go to Heaven.
Yes, because he sent his son to die for ALL - not every sin except homosexuality.
God originally created Hell for Satan and his followers. It was never for humans. The only reason why now people are going there is because a lot of them followed the wrong religion or they just rejected God and never wanted anything to do with him.
Still doesn't make it our decision.
That's impossible because the Gospel is being preached everywhere.
You'd be surprised how many people never heard of it.
There are a LOT of small tribes in Africa who never heard of anyone called Jesus, there are A LOT of small tribes in indonesia who never heard of it either.
It doesn't make sense for you to post here. You guys only talk about believing in Jesus. If a gay person believes in Jesus they will be fine because they didn't forget that part. They won't be judged by what they did (gay sex), but by would they could have easily avoided (believing in Jesus).
Yes, because he sent his son to die for ALL - not every sin except homosexuality.
Yes, I'm aware that He died for all sins. I was only restating what 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 was where it says a list of people who won't inherit the Kingdom of God and it includes homosexuality.
Still doesn't make it our decision
To believe in Him, yes it's your decision if you want to follow Him. If you don't want to then that's fine you'll be eternally separated from God for all of eternity. Which is the worst thing that could possibly happen to someone.
You'd be surprised how many people never heard of it.
Actually, I know that missionaries and people do go to certain places around the world and they preach the Gospel and that includes Indonesia and Africa in those tribes.
Tell me Srom, are they going to hell?
For since Creation, God's invisible quantities, divine nature, and His eternal power have clearly been seen so that people are without excuse. (Romans 1:20)
Actually, I know that missionaries and people do go to certain places around the world and they preach the Gospel and that includes Indonesia and Africa in those tribes.
Bull. First off you can't "know" that but you can believe that. Here is a real life example though of your stance that would send people to hell at no fault of their own.
The inhabitants of Papa New Guinea had no contact with the rest of the world until the 1930's. Some even later like the Touloumbis tribe 1976. What about the 10k+ years the Native Americans lived on the Americas? Even if you ignore the time before the gospel that is still 2k years after of people going to hell at no fault of their own.
Plenty of reasons why people had not heard of your god and believed in their own gods despite the bible saying otherwise. At no fault of their own either, if only the gospel could save them god should have made it avsilable to them instead of punishing them for his own shortcoming.
The gospel hasn't been taught everywhere even in contemporary times as you claim.
To believe in Him, yes it's your decision if you want to follow Him. If you don't want to then that's fine you'll be eternally separated from God for all of eternity. Which is the worst thing that could possibly happen to someone.
Building on from his previous point, a man who heard about god but never followed up in hell. Why should he spend eternity in hell for something he did not chose? Would it have been better if he was never born?
Actually, I know that missionaries and people do go to certain places around the world and they preach the Gospel and that includes Indonesia and Africa in those tribes.
People have no excuse to not believe in God.
Say all populations around earth have been reached by missionaries in the present. What about the majority of people living before Constantine made christianity mainstream? What about the people who lived in the Himalayas , and had no chance to have any contact with a bible basher? What about mentally handicap individuals who have no higher executive function, and cannot believe in or understand the concept of god? Don't just say god works in mysterious ways.
People do have excuse to not believe in god.
Another fun topic. What makes Christianity certain and dominant over all other religious beliefs?
Please don't troll me for a sec and answer honestly I beg of you. What if, just what if some how on this planet inhabited by literally billions of people, most of whom aren't perfect, and a lot of whom are blind and or deaf, what if there are some people who have not heard the gospel. I know that idea is outside the range of Christian logic, but bare with me. What would become of those people, who never heard the gospel?
2. I said to fathom the possibility that one of the millions of Christians didn't find just one of the billions of people on this planet, and that person never knew. What would become of that person?
How would he ask you if you didn't exist? This part of your argument is flawed.
And he also created hell.
Hell, originally, wasn't for humans. It was for fallen angels and Lucifer. That was the only purpose of Hell. Once man had sowed in the seeds of sin his soul became bound to sin and required salvation to escape it.
You can't say we are sending ourselves down to hell, because we have no say in anything at all.
This still doesn't make any sense.
Let's say you live in a city. You commit a crime in this city. They throw you in jail in this city without your "permission". Are you going to make the argument that you didn't send yourself to jail and want to go free because you didn't have a say in your imprisonment?
becuase we won't believe in an invisible being.
How do you know God is invisible?
That is not fair to anyone.
It's completely fair and here's why.
God created two sinless beings. He gave these beings freedom so that they can choose to sin, but God commanded them to do otherwise. Man decided to sin. Man sowed the seeds of sin. Man had more children enveloped in sin. Man had plenty of children until we get to where we are now. You are one of those children who must blame this predicament on the one who caused this, which was man. Are you going to yell at the dead man? Or are you going to strive for goodness so that you may have it forever?
That flawed part of his argument is actually the most sound part, and the flaw to sending people to hell.
You say once man gave in to sin, but recounts of the first sin, show it was one specific man, and that's it.
In your analogy with the city, let me tell you how you are flawed. In a city, you can at any time read the laws of your city, or if you feel those laws are not just, can move. God has a monopoly, in the sense that we must live under his rule or.... nothing. There is no other rule. Thus making him an unfair tyrant.
Invisible: Something that can not be seen. Let me explain what this word means and how it is used in more ways than to describe transparency. Bacteria, although visible under microscope, is naturally invisible to the human eye. Let me also use an example of something we would be able to see normally. Maybe you're familiar with the meme that became of the truck accident. All bikes in this photo are in a blind spot to the truck, they are invisible to it
And for your final argument, you say man sowed his sin, but punishing one for the crimes of his ancestors is literally punishing one for the crime of his ancestors. That be like if your great grand pappy killed 27 people, so they gave him 27 life sentences. Though being a human with only one life, they decided to also imprison his next 26 heirs. Ridiculous.
In a city, you can at any time read the laws of your city, or if you feel those laws are not just, can move. God has a monopoly, in the sense that we must live under his rule or.... nothing. There is no other rule. Thus making him an unfair tyrant.
And this is my flaw? Improper. God indeed has the inherent monopoly. He has set the rules. Even then if a king gives edict to live under a code and you don't follow those rules are you now exempt? No. You shall suffer punishment for your crimes. These laws are just since the creator is a just ruler who's sense of justice transcends our own. This doesn't flaw my argument in any sense. My analogy was to fit the analogy given my shuttled. You seem to be missing the critical points I brought up in which I see I must do again to show you why your are inaccurate in your post here. Actually, go back and look at what I bolded. I responded to certain portions of text. My argument is sound.
That flawed part of his argument is actually the most sound part, and the flaw to sending people to hell.
You fail to understand the flaw don't you? Shoutoutloud said he created us without asking. You cannot ask for the opinion of someone who hasn't been created yet. That is a flaw. Sending people to Hell isn't a flaw. In fact God won't send anyone to Hell in the first place. God only accepts you into heaven. On earth all humans are in line for damnation. God didn't have to create a way for humanity to live forever. However he did and it's available for anyone who wants eternal life. Once man parted from God he parted from his protection and sowed seeds for sin. Every man afterwards has been given a chance to redeem themselves. God created you good. Man made you bad. So blame God? That's perfectly logical.
God hasn't sent man to hell. Man sent himself to hell.
And for your final argument, you say man sowed his sin, but punishing one for the crimes of his ancestors is literally punishing one for the crime of his ancestors.
Funny how that isn't even the case isn't it? God holds you accountable for your mistakes. Adam andreceiveall recieve their punishment. Don't be foolish. God won't punish you for someone else's past doings. Your actions are what will be judged. I only spoke of the first sin to show how man has dug himself a hole. Each man after decides not to climb out when they clearly could have. Don't try to reword my arguments ever again if you can't understand, or critically analyze, what I post. That's a nice way of trying to under mindd undermind my argument though. Try again.
You began to speak of invisibility, but what if you see God all the time? His essence is everywhere. Wouldn't that imply that you always see God?
Yes this is your flaw. No one supports tyrants because their rule is not fair. A system where one body makes the rules and no other body exists to rule if they are just is not is an unfair tyranny. I am not saying one is exempt from the rules I'm saying the rules aren't fair, and there's no escape.
Yes sending people to hell is a flaw. Here's why. We were created without permission, then cast into a world where we had to do as one tyrant commands or face an eternity of punishment. I know you can not ask permission to a non existing being, but casting that being into a world of unfair rules, where only you have say, is still not fair. That'd be like having a child, locking it in the basement, and saying you are now my slave. You both gave the kid no choice to be born, cast it into a pit, then imposed rule on it, with it having no say in the matter.
Man did not make bad, one man made bad.
I don't always see God. I never see him. What I see are the laws of nature at work. To call the acts of science God, then claim he must be real because of said acts is to mis label said acts and God. If that's how you want to play it though, I argue your God isn't responsible for these acts, but instead mine is. Prove your God, or don't claim he's responsible for science and coincidences.
Yes this is your flaw. No one supports tyrants because their rule is not fair. A system where one body makes the rules and no other body exists to rule if they are just is not is an unfair tyranny. I am not saying one is exempt from the rules I'm saying the rules aren't fair, and there's no escape.
So it's unfair that God even created you and gave you a place to live and food to eat? Very unfair. The rules are rules for a nice lifestyle, but no. A good nature is inhrently unfair. That makes perfect sense. Also this isn't a flaw. My argument is still sound. In fact you still don't understand my rebuttal towards my original opponent.
Yes sending people to hell is a flaw. Here's why. We were created without permission
Sending people to Hell is a flaw? Funny how he doesn't send you to Hell. Also please explain how he would ask you if you wanted to be created if you weren't created yet? Your argument is flawed. That's illogical. Let me go ask my son 20 years from now if he wants to be born.
then cast into a world where we had to do as one tyrant commands or face an eternity of punishment.
What is the other option? Non-existence? No. Then you call a God that gives you enough to survive a tyrant? He didn't have to create you and you aren't greatful for that? Such arrogance and ignorance. Why not just live a "Christian" lifestyle and live for eternity in peace instead of non-existing?
know you can not ask permission to a non existing being, but casting that being into a world of unfair rules, where only you have say, is still not fair.
So what was God supposed to do then? What is his other option? Also the rules are quite fair. Your government set rules before you and you have to obey whatever the decide on. Why aren't you complaining to them?
That'd be like having a child, locking it in the basement, and saying you are now my slave. You both gave the kid no choice to be born, cast it into a pit, then imposed rule on it, with it having no say in the matter.
......wow. Yeah this analogy lacks relativity. In non-applicable to reality. A proper analogy is having a child and twlling him to live by these rules so he may live forever because you love him, but giving him the option to choose. Ignorance is your strong suit.
Man did not make bad, one man made bad.
Oh, so the people after Adam haven't done anything bad? You haven't done anything bad? Highly doubt.
I don't always see God. I never see him.
Have you ever looked at the bible? In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the word was God. If you ever looked at a bible you have looked at God. If you have ever looked at a verse you have looked at God.
Prove your God, or don't claim he's responsible for science and coincidences.
When did I make this claim?
If that's how you want to play it though, I argue your God isn't responsible for these acts, but instead mine is
What you just described in that first phrase was borderline slavery. Slaves got food, and shelter for their tedious and back breaking labor, but morally no one considers that okay.
Funny how he made hell, and is the only person with power to put people there. A person can't literally send themselves to jail. They can certainly ask for it, commit crimes to achieve it, and or deserve it, but ultimately only one person can actually send them to jail, and that is a judge. This is the same concept that God works on with hell.
The other option IS non existence. Some people (mostly homosexuals) would be guilted into believing homosexuality is a sin, and would wish to never have been made than to be made homosexual in a world that looks down on it.
Why not live a Christian lifestyle? Why should we? If that lifestyle is harmful to us, or makes us hate ourselves.
What was God's other option? To not make anyone in the first place, if he was going to impose unfair rule on us, that he knew some of us would rebel from.
People often do complain to their government. That is how democracy works. A tyranny is a system where their is no complaining, just obey or punishment. Much like God's system.
You made the claim that God is every where, I assumed you say some foolishness like "when the sun rises, it's because of him" but what ever your reason for saying God is every where, prove it.
What you just described in that first phrase was borderline slavery. Slaves got food, and shelter for their tedious and back breaking labor, but morally no one considers that okay.
God doesn't even treat people like slaves. So I have no idea why you are equating the two. You're rambling now.
Funny how he made hell, and is the only person with power to put people there.
Incorrect. God made hell for Lucifer and the fallen angels. Once man sinned man became intertwined with the bounds of Hell.
A person can't literally send themselves to jail
Walk into a jail cell, close the cell......
This is the same concept that God works on with hell.
Read your bible. Angels keep records of ones deeds and lifestyle choices.If your name isn't in the book of life you don't make it into heaven.
The other option IS non existence.
Oh, so just have nothing exist? Sounds great.
Why not live a Christian lifestyle? Why should we? If that lifestyle is harmful to us, or makes us hate ourselves.
Damn, really? Many Christians are happy with their lives. They don't hate themselves. You really need to stop rambling.
What was God's other option? To not make anyone in the first place, if he was going to impose unfair rule on us, that he knew some of us would rebel from.
Many people believe the rules are fair, since they will live forever once they finish following these rules.
People often do complain to their government
I have yet to see the roads outside of my house get the repairs it needs. Government decides what it wants to do. The virtual democratic illusion of equal power is false.
You made the claim that God is every where, I assumed you say some foolishness like "when the sun rises, it's because of him" but what ever your reason for saying God is every where, prove it.
You literally can't fucking read. I never claimed anything. This is what I said.
You began to speak of invisibility, but what if you see God all the time? His essence is everywhere. Wouldn't that imply that you always see God?
If God is everywhere then logically you always see him. Simple as that. This was just a lead in to my question. Not a claim.
I'm bowing out, I can't keep debating with someone who keeps altering what I say. I'm finished. Post whatever you want.
I'm equating the two because you said, God gives us a home and feeds us... which is exactly what slave owners do to slaves.
I said: "Funny how he made hell, and is the only person with power to put people there. "
You then said "Incorrect. God made hell for Lucifer and the fallen angels. Once man sinned man became intertwined with the bounds of Hell."
If he made it for Lucy, then he made, simple as that. Thus, I am correct in saying "Funny how he made hell, and is the only person with power to put people there"
Walk into a jail cell, close the cell......
Then a guard comes and removes you, but lets say it was so simple to go to jail. It's a man made, human construct, in this plane of existence, easily visible with your very own eyes. Hell is not. It's supernatural, you couldn't visit it even if you wanted to. The only known way to get there is to break God's rules.
Damn, really? Many Christians are happy with their lives. They don't hate themselves. You really need to stop rambling.
Obviously you all are happy, but how do you think the people you persecute for not being one of you feel?
Many people believe the rules are fair, since they will live forever once they finish following these rules.
Not all, and for those of us that don't what say in the matter do we get? Where can I cast my vote for the amendment to heaven's laws, or idk maybe a new God?
I have yet to see the roads outside of my house get the repairs it needs. Government decides what it wants to do. The virtual democratic illusion of equal power is false.
Very often things are changed. Not always obviously but often enough that we can feel compelled to vote again. Not with God.
You began to speak of invisibility, but what if you see God all the time? His essence is everywhere. Wouldn't that imply that you always see God
Okay, then what is God?
I'm bowing out, I can't keep debating with someone who keeps altering what I say. I'm finished. Post whatever you want.
Bow out, please do. I grow tired of 'arguing' with someone who has no mind of his own. Also I am for the first time quoting you, so there's no way I could have changed what you said, I simply rebutted your silly arguments in the order you spewed them.
Good question. Since he is omnipotent I just thought he'd figure out a way.
Once man had sowed in the seeds of sin his soul became bound to sin and required salvation to escape it.
Well, since God can't give me a solid proof of his existence, I fail to see how I ''chose'' hell. God can apparently only give heaven to people who are ignorant enough to believe it.
Good question. Since he is omnipotent I just thought he'd figure out a way.
God can do everything logically possible.
Well, since God can't give me a solid proof of his existence, I fail to see how I ''chose'' hell.
God bases his favor on faith.
John 20:29: Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."
God would rather you place your faith in him than have him appear in front of you in order to believe.
Now on to the second part of your sentence.
You send yourself to Hell through the lifestyle you live in. If you live a sinful lifestyle and refuse to repent for your sins then you have sent yourself into Hell. God will not send you to Hell. The book of life will open and if you have lived a "Christian" lifestyle you will acquire the kingdom of God. If not you have failed to acquire the kingdom and will suffer in the place where the seeds of sin lay.
He is everywhere, yet I can't see anything.
You're crazy. I see him all the time above my dresser. My little Jesus statue just sits there.
2. What about all those poor children in poor countries who never heard of anyone called Jesus? Have they sent themselves to hell?
Lmfao. Agreed. Those people who go over to those countries and say they're doing it out of charity, then line up the starving villages and hand out bibles. Those pretentious dicks aren't doing it for charity, they're helping those people because they want a bigger demographic!
I'm not sure you are understanding. If the bible says being gay is fine then being gay is okay. If it forbids it then it is a sin. If you don't repent for your sin you are sentenced to damnation. Are you even debating or are you just rambling?
Are you debating or a you just rambling? Debating. LGBT rights specifically. On how we are not evil for who we love. Your turn. Oh, and it cant be a sin to be gay since gays dont choose to be gay.
Right. The Book of Romans, a series of letters written to Persecution-era Christians by Saul of Tarsus-turned Paul "the Apostle", the same overly zealous sadistic jackass that ruthlessly persecuted Christians for Rome, then inexplicably (blinded en route to Damascus I think?) became a Christian expert and wrote letters to Rome, about Christians, then planned to visit Rome, the capital of the hatemongers which killed Christ and his early followers.
Old habits die hard. A little common sense will tell you that he retained his discriminatory nature. Paul wasn't an Apostle. Saul was the first to weaponize Christianity against people he didn't like.
He called himself an Apostle. None of the original apostles did this. Also I believe there was a "don't be a pretender" line from Jesus somewhere? Pray in private, and don't parade it out on the streets and flaunt it about like "I'm So Fabulous!"
Yes homosexuality did indeed exist in the Bible times. Paul in 1st Corinthians wrote to the Church of Corinth telling them that thieves, drunkards, idolaters, homosexuals, etc will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Bisexuality is a form of homosexuality since you're attracted to women.
Romans 1:26-27 still applies because it says they exchanged natural relations to unnatural relations and they had a lust for one another. So that still relates to homosexuality and refers to it.
Romans 1:26-27 says that God forced people to act gay after He saw all of the sins that were being done. If God forced it on people afterward, it couldn't have been the gay stuff He was mad about.
It is not say that they chose to be bisexual. It says that they chose to exhange the true God for false ones. You are making something out of this that is not there.
No it's not. When it says they exchanged natural relations with one another. That means that they weren't straight anymore so they became gay and had lust for one another.
People dont send themselves to Hell. No one chooses to suffer. Suffering is not something that you choose. Suffering is something God puts on people against their will.
So... we're not going to even glance at all the other good things that this man has done in his life? Placing faith in God, giving to Charity, going to Church, studying religion, living happily, obeying the law... trying his best to obey the other laws? Loving thy neighbor, not committing adultery/being unfaithful to his partner...
I doubt that God's overlooking all of that because this guy's with another guy, and not even for inherently sexual purposes (note that their relationship is more about loving each other for who they are as people).
Dude, think for a minute. The man trusts that God will love and accept him for who he is, and he's done the best he could to be an amazing person and the promise of heaven has nothing to do with his behavior. He does it because he is a good human being. If God's going to betray that trust, then "God" isn't worth it. However on a personal level, I myself believe that God will not overlook this man's good qualities for one and one thing only. I love God, and God loves me back, for it is ultimately unconditional. The moment you strap a condition onto "Unconditional Love", it becomes meaningless.
So... we're not going to even glance at all the other good things that this man has done in his life? Placing faith in God, giving to Charity, going to Church, studying religion, living happily, obeying the law... trying his best to obey the other laws? Loving thy neighbor, not committing adultery/being unfaithful to his partner...
You're not saved when you give to charity or when you go to church. It's when you believe in Jesus Christ as your Savior and Lord. You follow Him tell the day you die and obey His commands.
I doubt that God's overlooking all of that because this guy's with another guy, and not even for inherently sexual purposes (note that their relationship is more about loving each other for who they are as people).
Everyone is going to be judge by God. Based on their actions, words, and thoughts. And everyone is going to be judged for what they all did as they were on this earth.
You're not saved when you give to charity or when you go to church. It's when you believe in Jesus Christ as your Savior and Lord. You follow Him tell the day you die and obey His commands.
The very next thing you say...
Everyone is going to be judge by God. Based on their actions, words, and thoughts. And everyone is going to be judged for what they all did as they were on this earth.
>judged for what they all did as they were on this earth.
That's the very reason why I'm arguing that he's not going to hell. Thank's for making my point for me.
And so a book is completely immune to being edited? I'd like to note that there are multiple, very harsh warnings of MAAAASSIIIVE punishment for adding to, subtracting from, or changing parts of the Bible.
If it were the sacrosanct, infallible, perfect word of a perfect being, it'd be impossible to corrupt to begin with, and such warnings would never need to be put in there. It's also a great trolling tool to use if you DID pollute a holy book and don't want anyone to fix it.
Also, Apocrypha? We're not going to count it's subtraction by the Roman Catholics? There are a lot of cool stories there.
((Also, I digress, Ragnarok in Norse Mythology. I just wanna say that... for the record, I think that a bunch of Grumpy Teenagers likely vandalized the Norse Scripture to say that all the gods were going to get their asses handed to them by the demons/giants that they had been wrecking for the past few millenia. xD))
And so a book is completely immune to being edited? I'd like to note that there are multiple, very harsh warnings of MAAAASSIIIVE punishment for adding to, subtracting from, or changing parts of the Bible.
You've state something that I already know. Your point?
I grew up a in the Plymouth Brethren community. There I've learned, that every sin is equal.
James 2:10 '' For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become accountable for all of it.''
There are a lot of christian people I know who do things the bible says isn't okay.
The bible is way too long and strict for somebody to follow every single law, and at the same time be a normal human being in our crazy society.
If God would send that man to hell, then he would send all other christians to hell, because you are born a sinner. But that doesn't have to happen, since he sacrifised his own son.
Did he sacrifise his son for all sins except the homosexual act? I doubt it.
You must understand that God will send all to Hell unless you receive his son Jesus. God is Righteous and Holy and you cannot assume that God will let us all to Heaven because we cannot keep the Law. The purpose of the Law is that we know that were all helpless and need a savior. No no no no no: Just because Jesus died on the Cross does not mean everyone is already saved but must be justified to get to heaven. Salvation is a gift. Were going to Hell unless we receive Jesus.
There is no reason for God to sacrifice his son just to save what ? A third of the human race? Jesus came to save people from hell, and just before he died he said "it is done". What is done? Evil is done!
Im not saying everyone goes to heaven, but hell was destroyed 2000 years ago, according to my personal interpretation of the bible.
Yes there is a reason God had to sacrifice his son because were sinful and need a Savior. God will not let sin into heaven and had to pay a blood sacrifice. No Human could so Jesus came. Romans6:23( For the Wages of sin is death but the gift of God is Eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord). He sacrificed himself because he loves us so much John3:16. God is a Righteous and will do what is right. Just because some will accept Jesus as Savior does not mean that he wouldnt die for the whole world. God loves us so he wanted to provide a way through his son. Without the sin sacrafice there would be no way to heaven. You would still be able to escape Hell but will not go to Heaven. God brought people to a place called Abrahams Bosom. Which was a holding place for those who trusted in Jehovah(God the Father); its not purgatory. There is no purgatory. Its in the Catholic Bible which is not Archeologically proven. But the King James Bible is proven accurate. We will save that debate for another time. Anyway, eventhough you could not go to heaven you could still be saved from hell by trusting in God the Father. But without the sacrifice of Jesus you could not go to Heaven. Sin had to be paid for in order for you to go to Heaven. But back in the Old Testament you had to sacrifice things to not be punished. The sacrifices were not for you to go to Heaven but for you to worship God and do what he asked. Sacrifice with Blood. Jesus sacrificed his himself with his own blood. God loves all and has paid the price for all the Sinners through his son Jesus. No Hell was not Destroyed forever Because Jesus talked about Hell so much and has warned us about Hell so much. Also; Jesus put the sins of the world in Hell after he died on the cross. We are condemned unless we recieve Jesus and accept his Gift of Salvation. The Bible has been Archeolically proven in many ways. Thousands of copies proven and put together as one Document. All of these scrolls all line into one story. Look at prophecy. In scriptures you see they are coming into affect and them testifying from Thousands of years apart. The Bible is True and just think of it this way: God is real and wants to reveal himself to you and has revealed himself through out the Bible. All you got to do is serk him truly and soon you will find him. There is proof of his resurrection throughout archaeology. Ill come back to you later. God Bless you and may he reveal himself to you.
True, God will not let sin into heaven, thats why Jesus wiped out all sins when he died. Not just some sins.. Whats the point of that? Why would anyone sacrifice their son i order for a minority to be saved?
Jesus paid the price of sins. But sins must be Justified. God is a Righteous Holy God and must do what is right. Salvation is a gift. He paid the price of sins to buy for salvation. We must acknowledge that Jesus is Savior and recieve him as Savior. He paid the price we couldnt pay but as long as we accept the gift that Jesus paid for, we can have Eternal Life. God Bless.
God will send a man to hell if he continues an act that is deemed as sin and doesn't repent for this act. The laws in the old testament were always set for a reason. Those reasons may have expired by now. I would assume that God would requires abstinence until marriage for a gay couple since anyone wishing to marry must follow that law.
There are a lot of christian people I know who do things the bible says isn't okay.
Those individuals are to be held accountable for their actions.
The bible is way too long and strict for somebody to follow every single law
Most of those laws are common sense laws that are pretty easy to follow. This isn't a to do list. Most of the laws in the bible are telling you not to do things.
If God would send that man to hell, then he would send all other Christians to hell, because you are born a sinner.
He only sends the sinners who don't repent about their actions. Actually I wouldn't even say sends. He doesn't grant access to heaven. He doesn't really send anyone to hell. He only takes you to heaven.
Did he sacrifise his son for all sins except the homosexual act? I doubt it.
He sacrificed his son so that anyone who stretches their arms towards the covenant will be able to live in heaven forever. Those that continuously sin without repentance will fail to reach heaven.
I completely agree on what your saying but when you stated that you must change your ways to go to heaven. Not true. You must recieve Jesus and trust him as your savior to get to Heaven. Repent in the Bible means a change of someones mind. What Does that mean? It means you must change your Mind about God and you. You must no longer believe that you're able to get to heaven on your own but that you need a savior. Repentance does not mean in the context that its a change of ways. If it was it would be legalism. Because changing your ways is work. Salvation is a Free gift from God. Romans 6:23. I encourage that you read the book of Romans verse by verse. Dont think that you must change your mind to be saved. Thats not what Jesus is saying. But what he is saying is that Mindset of that we can save ourselves( synergism/Legalism) must change into a Mindset of that you must be saved and its God alone that saves ( Monergism) through his son. That Christ is the Only way to Heaven. God Bless you and may the good Lord be with you.
I seriously, SERIOUSLY doubt that God's going to overlook every other beautiful quality that this man has simply because he's homosexual and refusing "treatment".
If there truly is a god(s) out there than I'm sure he or she/it/them wouldn't punish someone simply because of them having a different sexual orientation. If this god was truly a loving god, it would love and accept someone no matter what. Unfortunately that particular god probably isn't the Christian god. Why would the Christian god make homosexuals and punish them for making who they are. It absolutely makes no sense what so ever.
The Bible clearly states that anyone on the other side of this debate is going to hell. It is wrong to attempt to claim you know how God will judge this person.
I'm with you, Sitara. Not just as a fellow Bisexual, but also because that verse is freaking amazing ammunition here, and I'm already on this side of the argument lol.
Of course he wouldn't go to hell. "YEESUS died for our sins" If you don't sin, Jesus died for nothing.
Also, how is this any worse than other christian hypocrites? Yes this guy is breaking a rule set by God and mentioned in the bible, but so do other christians.
Leviticus 19:19 states that "'Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material." Most true claimed true christians who have read the bible, still break this rule.
Actually I pick none of the reasons. My reason is that we leave this all to God, since there is only yes and no for this question so I just picked this. Anyway, we don't have the authority to say if he goes to Hell or not. And it is God's choice to choose to send that man to Hell.
I believe that God Is A loving god, a forgiving god. He loves us all sin or not, the truth is we are all sinners and god has no scale for deciding what sin is worse than the other. So a murderer who had killed 20 people but repented and in his heart he feel remorse and is truly sorry, may go to heaven.. A man or women who is god fearing and lives a life with love as you describe would be judge the same as the murderer. As long has our hearts are in the right place, we will all be forgiven. Jesus died for our sins, for a reason. We sin every day and may not even know it. I do believe that anyone who is gay has a better chance of going to heaven as the behind your back gossiper who is speaking ill of who ever is not around. People claim to be true Christians every day, but most of them are lying not just to the people around them but to themselves. God would not want us to judge anyone period. We are to love our neighbor and leave the judging up to god him self.