Wow nice debate this is deep stuff. I usually shy away from these debates and stick to the simple ones but I will give it a shot. I believe that humans are preternatural because we have souls. But many of you do not share my religious beliefs so this is tricky. I don't want this to turn into a useless "does god exist?" debate. Lets say that global warming exists.[another road I don't want to go down, just bare with me] Now I'm not sure as to how you measure reason, but we humans tend to plan ahead. Animals will use some form of reason to tend to their immediate survival. You don't see other mammals planning for the generations that will live one hundred years in the future. Worrying about them. So I guess you could say that we reason more. I don't think that reason is the only factor here. What about emotion? Do animals love? No, they don't. Humans are the only ones on the planet that have a divine purpose. The purpose to return to our father in heaven.
145 days ago | Tagged As: yes humans are preternatural
Of course humans are preternatural, if we were truly equal with nature than we would not have developed the ability to reason. it is in this ability that we have gained our independance from the norm, and taken our place with the other preternatural things, massive physical phenomena, like meteorites that cause massive dieoffs. 1. if the rest of nature can not reson to the same extent as humans, than that makes us above nature. 2. the fact that we have been able to become such a destrutive force in such a small amount of time, puts us far above nature. 3. the fact that we are able to fix the problems we create makes us preternatural, for we are capable of resoning, and in extension, responsibility. 4. if one can reason, than one can be responsible. 5. the fact that we are preternatural gives us the right, no, the responsibility to right the wrongs we have been creating, global warming, ocean acidification, etc. 6. if we were truly responsible we would fix our mistakes, since nuthing else can. 7. in nature their are many excepions to rules, but the one rule that creates a preternatural being isn't speed, mind power, or destructive proliferation in itself, but the ability to be responsible for what you have done. humans can create, and destroy like no other biotic force on the planet, and we are thousands of times more destructive than anyo ther biotic force. humans are preternatural. if someone could point out the flaws in these arguments, and which ones don't matter, that would be swell! their is so little information about this on the web, excepting twilight references and the like. i now stand open to cross examination.
146 days ago | Tagged As: yes humans are preternatural
Of course humans are preternatural, if we were truly equal with nature than we would not have developed the ability to reason. All of the great apes can reason. So can other mammals like Cetaceans. it is in this ability that we have gained our independance from the norm, and taken our place with the other preternatural things, massive physical phenomena, like meteorites that cause massive dieoffs. Wait, what? if the rest of nature can not reson to the same extent as humans, than that makes us above nature. Well, it doesn't make us "above nature" any more than birds being able to see the Earth's magnetic field makes them above nature. I could go on, but realistically, your case is a rather vacuous one.
146 days ago | Tagged As: no humans aren't preternatural
all the great apes may be capable of reasoning, but they are not capable of reasoning to the same extent of humans. no animals other than humans can form sentences, or can descide who should live versus who should die in a court. with our level of reasoning comes responsibility, and with responsibility we have been able to form great cities and proliferate like on other, growing exponentialy in size(not uncommon in nature) and knowledge(i can say with 99.9999999% certainty that humans are onbly organisms known to man to be able to do this). we have become great, in our ability to be destrouctive (notuncommon in nature) and our ability to fix our mistakes( only humans). as such we are no more natural than the giant meteorite that killed off the dinosaurs with 1000foot tall walls of fire, or the volcanoes that roasted, and suffocated almost all life, but maybe even more preternatural still in our ability to reverse what we have done. and in my definition of the term and the placement i have given, the highest power would have to be the earths ability to rebound even after such awesome forces as meteorites, oceanic acidification, and ourselves have ravaged it. (hoipe this is clearer)
146 days ago | Tagged As: yes humans are preternatural
I think your definition of "natural" is a bit vague. A meteorite is a part of nature, therefore natural. Other planets are natural. The word "natural" is not exclusive to earth and what it contains. For that matter: an atom bomb is as natural as a spiderweb; otherwise it wouldn't work
145 days ago | Tagged As: no humans aren't preternatural
Before you start telling people that chimps are incapable of reasoning "to the extent" at which humans can, why don't you explain what reason is? I've said this before, but neither responsibility nor reason is directly responsible for the other. So when you say "with reasoning comes responsibility", you're positing this without explaining how you came up with the idea yourself. In fact, you're doing this all the time, about everything that you say. This isn't debate class, everything is written, not spoken. If you're going to make an argument, explain your reasoning and we'll help you work it out the right way. Yeah, and the earth doesn't "rebound". Everyone acts like the earth cares whether life inhabits it or not, as if it has feelings, a beating heart and lungs. It's just a rock. When we do wrong to the earth, the earth doesn't cry. We aren't hurting the earth, we are hurting our environment. The meteor didn't hurt the earth either, it hurt our ecosystem. Destruction isn't a measure of power, let alone power brought about by reason. Look at were humanity has been, look at where it is now. We have always been able to destroy, whether by throwing stones, by bows and arrows, or nuclear weapons... but how many have been able to bring true peace? NONE. Don't mention destructive force when justifying your arguments for the power of reason, it does no good.
145 days ago | Tagged As: no humans aren't preternatural
"Of course humans are preternatural, if we were truly equal to nature we would not have developed the ability to reason." How do you propose 'we' developed the ability? We didn't do it through reason, or logic, so how could an unreasoning being become reasoning without the guidance of natural laws and mechanics? "... it is in this ability that we have gained our independence from the norm." Your argument from here down suggests to the reader, that the ability to reason links us to the "norm"... You say that reason leads to responsibility for nature, so if anything we aren't gaining independence, but becoming closer to nature. Overall though, this statement makes no sense because nothing can gain independence from nature. "...and taken our place with the other preternatural things, massive physical phenomena, like meteorites that cause massive dieoffs." "Phenomena" in general is just a vague word we use to describe something that isn't understood. So much for your reason. Meteors are natural occurrences, like stars and dirt. They aren't above nature because they could kill life... that's like saying a rock, if thrown at someone, was supernatural because it kills things. "1. if the rest of nature can not reason to the same extent as humans, than that makes us above nature." Humans reason a certain way, dolphins, chimps, octopi, and even cats are intelligent but they reason differently. This is one reason the I.Q. test isn't taken so seriously, because it's a test to measure human intelligence and reason. It cannot be used to measure the ability of chimps, and a chimps IQ test couldn't be used on humans, we would fail it as bad as a chimp would fail ours. "2. the fact that we have been able to become such a destrutive force in such a small amount of time, puts us far above nature." Destruction is simple, stop putting it on a pedestal. It doesn't signify anything, especially because destruction, or the ability to destroy anything comes directly from the laws that govern the universe. It's a mechanical process, not a man made process, and it doesn't take much to do. "3. the fact that we are able to fix the problems we create makes us preternatural, for we are capable of resoning, and in extension, responsibility." We cannot fix problems. We can identify what our problems are, or what will be problematic in the future, but that doesn't mean that they are really problems in nature. The globe is warming, but we're causing it, it's bad for our environment and our way of life... but we're not destroying the world. The world is working as well as ever, but we're changing it in ways that threaten our own existence. Every animal knows how to identify problems, and every animal seeks it's own survival before anything. "4. if one can reason, then one can be responsible." You need to prove this, you can't just say it and expect people to accept it as truth. As far as I can tell, reason and responsibility aren't directly linked. If anything, morals (which don't need to come about via reason) are at root of responsibility. "5. the fact that we are preternatural gives us the right, no, the responsibility to right the wrongs we have been creating, global warming, ocean acidification, etc." This is called self-preservation. It's not above nature to look out for yourself, or even for the well being of others. Animals are known to do this instinctively, not only look our for themselves, but other animals too. Dogs protecting cats, things like that. This isn't a human, unnatural or reasonable thing. "6. if we were truly responsible we would fix our mistakes, since nothing else can." We are responsible, but we aren't fixing much... how do you explain this? Even though nothing else will fix it for us and we know we're fucking up, we continue. "7. in nature their are many exceptions to rules, but the one rule that creates a preternatural being isn't speed, mind power, or destructive proliferation in itself, but the ability to be responsible for what you have done." I'm not entirely sure of what you mean here. There are other animals that take responsibility for their actions. Maybe not our of ethical duty, but instinctively, some can act responsibly. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- All of these arguments need to be reassessed. Not one of your points have a solid, well understood, base. I don't know if anyone else here could really understand what you're trying to get at, and I'm not sure you do either. You need to think about it longer. It's an interesting question but you're not thinking enough outside of (or even inside of) the box. Don't come up with the conclusion that you want to have, let the conclusion reveal itself to you, and keep it until you find a flaw in it on your own. Also, get familiar with the term "nature" and "natural". It doesn't seem like you understand the meaning all too well and that may be the biggest missing part to your puzzle. Nature doesn't only include the biological world, of plants and animals, even you said meteors are a part of nature, but it's even bigger than meteors and smaller than quarks/gluons etc.
145 days ago | Tagged As: no humans aren't preternatural
i see that i did not make myself clear in my first post, i thought that in the first post you are merely supposed to list your points, as vaguely as possible, and then let the negators fall into the trap( at least thats how my debate teacher taught us) and when i said phenomena, i gave an example as to which kind i was talking about, but besides that. never mind my initial post, if i could delete it and just use my second one i would. just use my second one. debate that.
145 days ago | Tagged As: yes humans are preternatural
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The ability to reason, in particular, is not preternatural. I believe nature is the source of reason, it is what makes reason possible, and even if humans are the only living things to reason (which we aren't, even here on earth), we are part of nature, so the ability to reason belongs to nature directly, just as we as people belong to nature. If you look at it like a file system, the filing cabinet would be Existence, the first folder would be nature, and inside that would be everything else in the universe including laws... if you trace everything in the universe to the highest directory, or the parent which contains all of the attributes of humanity, and the ability to reason at all, that folder would be nature. Reason is natural, human beings are natural, everything that we know of is natural, except the existence of nature itself... though, it does exist so it very well could be natural as well.
145 days ago | Tagged As: no humans aren't preternatural
English isn't my native-language so i had to look up Preternatural. From what I can see Preternatural is basically a euphemism for supernatural so I would say no. Our reasoning faculties don't make us somehow above or beyond nature just because it hasn't been explained or replicated with AI. Throughout history people have tried to make it so that humans are somehow special and used as their argument all sorts of bullshit claims. It is not that long ago that it was held that only humans dreamed for example. I don't think us being the pinnacle of evolution in terms of freedom of movement/thought/choice is a good enough argument to call us preternatural/supernatural. If that would be so then by definition the species that had the most evolved reasoning faculties of any given time would be preternatural/supernatural, that is; before humans evolved the dinosaur with the biggest brain would be preternatural/supernatural
146 days ago | Tagged As: no humans aren't preternatural
i think you are opporating under the wrong definition of the word. supernatual implies that it is one withbut stronger, like a superchanrged engine, but preternatural and natural is comprable to apples and oranges.
146 days ago | Tagged As: yes humans are preternatural
well if natural and preternatural doesnt have a bigger distinction than the difference between apples and oranges then I dont see the use for a whole new word. I think language is natural. Language is found in other species than just humans - and language is the vessel that carries reasoning
146 days ago | Tagged As: no humans aren't preternatural
are you aware of the great distinctions between apples and oranges? so should we call apples and oranges, and all fruit of the like, treebearing citrus, and treebearing sweet fruit, oranges? should vans be called buses. should their only be the word speek to show that somebody voiced something, should it only be run, instead of barreled, or dashed? language may be found in many places, but that is not the debate. all because humans are, or are not preternatural doesn't mean every one of their traits are! it just means that they have one or two traits that sets them above all else. which in tyhis debate is reasoning, and by extension, responsibility
145 days ago | Tagged As: yes humans are preternatural
are you aware of the great distinctions between apples and oranges? so should we call apples and oranges, and all fruit of the like, treebearing citrus, and treebearing sweet fruit, oranges? should vans be called buses. should their only be the word speek to show that somebody voiced something, should it only be run, instead of barreled, or dashed? language may be found in many places, but that is not the debate. all because humans are, or are not preternatural doesn't mean every one of their traits are! it just means that they have one or two traits that sets them above all else. which in tyhis debate is reasoning, and by extension, responsibility
145 days ago | Tagged As: yes humans are preternatural
are you aware of the great distinctions between apples and oranges? so should we call apples and oranges, and all fruit of the like, treebearing citrus, and treebearing sweet fruit, oranges? should vans be called buses. should their only be the word speek to show that somebody voiced something, should it only be run, instead of barreled, or dashed? language may be found in many places, but that is not the debate. all because humans are, or are not preternatural doesn't mean every one of their traits are! it just means that they have one or two traits that sets them above all else. which in tyhis debate is reasoning, and by extension, responsibility
145 days ago | Tagged As: yes humans are preternatural
I wasn't arguing that we should generalize the names of all specific fruits : ) fruit names are specific for a reason - "natural" on the other hand is always a very general word and it seems to me that "preternatural" is a word spiritual people or people who believe in teleology make up to shoehorn into our sense of reality an idea of the supernatural when no one takes "supernatural" seriously anymore as a descriptive word for reality. In other words: since people who use the word supernatural in any other situations than describing a fantasy novel or something fictional are branded as a bit naive, they make a new word to make their idea (in this case of humans as somehow distinctly outside of nature) more acceptable. This was done when "creation" was laughed out of court, then they came back with the bullshit term "intelligent design" It is very true that humans are the most complex lifeforms known (by humans I might add) on earth - That does not mean though that there is more of a distinct line between humans and monkeys than cats and lions for example.
145 days ago | Tagged As: no humans aren't preternatural
i didn't mean to post thois many, i just didn't see them when i posted them.....i will figure out how to delete them when i get back home and do so!
145 days ago | Tagged As: yes humans are preternatural
are you aware of the great distinctions between apples and oranges? so should we call apples and oranges, and all fruit of the like, treebearing citrus, and treebearing sweet fruit, oranges? should vans be called buses. should their only be the word speek to show that somebody voiced something, should it only be run, instead of barreled, or dashed? language may be found in many places, but that is not the debate. all because humans are, or are not preternatural doesn't mean every one of their traits are! it just means that they have one or two traits that sets them above all else. which in tyhis debate is reasoning, and by extension, responsibility
145 days ago | Tagged As: yes humans are preternatural
No, my definition of it is basically "unnatural", and because nature is basic and nothing can be unnatural if nature is all that is, unnatural in an order must be supernatural. Which is to say it's an exception in nature. Supernatural though has a distinct definition and so does preternatural, so what I mean is that they are very similar, but not equivalent.
145 days ago | Tagged As: no humans aren't preternatural
i wasn't disputing your definition at the time. supernatural is in no way equivalent to preternatural, as you rightly said, preternatural, is like...a ghost, almost. its their in it, yet it isn't their, out of it. it is one of those things where the sum of the parts is lesser than the sum of the parts
145 days ago | Tagged As: yes humans are preternatural
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