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Its not that it was created fake. It was founded on pre-existing myths which were created to explain the world around the earliest human beings. Stories were written about a man who (probably) really existed and provided moral teachings of some kind. After he died stories about him were embellished as they were passed from person to person verbally. Eventually they were written down and it seemed appropriate them to make the stories align with the preexisting religion and myths they already believed in which was Judaism (the torah). The thing is, the stories stopped being stories because people through verbal communication actually believed these things to be true. it wasnt founded to be fake. there wasnt a master scheme to use it at first. It was believed to be true. As time when on it evolved and the stories were put into alignment better and re-told and translated and all that good stuff but along the way people actually genuinely believed it and still do to this day.
However later on in its existence people certainly discovered that being in charge of what the masses believed had extreme advantages. That is how the catholic church rose to power. monarchy combined with theism to create a frankenstien monster that could do anything to anybody and take anything it wanted. People began to use religion to exploit the masses and it has evolved through the years to what we see on television today. Big megachurch evangelist preachers conning thousands of desperate people out of their money weekly by preying on their beliefs.
O man where do I begin, the list is so long it will takes weeks to explain, but I'll give you a few examples, one reason is for political control, governments use and have been using religions for thousands of years as a form of political control, a primitive form of passive law enforcement, another reason is to adopt old outdated pagan beliefs to into a new monotheistic religion without the backlash from the pagan masses, Christianity is a collection of bits and pieces of old pagan beliefs, Christmas for example is a old pagan holiday, the birthday of Mithra, a sun God.
Take some time out and watch this documentary called "History of God" this is one of many documentaries that dive deep into mans need for a God.
If people use religion to control, then wouldn't one make a religion that is intentionally believable? Why did Christianity come about, when it was in the midst of the Roman occupation? You have explained how religion in general has come about; you have yet to explain how Christianity came about.
Christianity came about as a offset faction from the Jewish faith, a rogue faction, creating havoc, however about 320 years after the death of Jesus under emperor Constantine of Rome formed the council of Nicaea, that council was composed of over 300 of the Roman empires religious leaders, there job was to unite this rogues faction of Jews as a new found religion called Christianity.
The reason for this is because the roman emperor Constantine had a vision of a Cross in the clouds before a large battle that told him that they would be victorious, needless to say the Romans won that battle and there for Constantine felt Jesus was worthy of it's own religion, so Christianity was born.
It is also note worthy to understand that during the council of Nicaea those 300 religious leaders hand picked what went into the bible and what did not, out of 60 gospels only 4 made the cut and also they added a bunch of old Jewish fables along with pagan fables to help unite the people, so in a nut shell they tried to make all there citizens happy by adding bits from this religion, bits from that religion and so on, Christianity was there for used as a political tool and propaganda to help bring stability to the region.
Heres the problem with your argument: it is not talking about the founding of Christianity, which was in the first century, not the fourth. Original Christianity had no pagan aspects to it. You have yet to explain how Christianity came about, if it were fake. The early church was persecuted in the Romans empire, not embraced.
Thats just it, Christianity didn't exist until around the year 300 or so, before that what we call Christianity before the Council of Nicaea that was called Judaism, just a offspring version or a denomination of it, kind of how today we have different versions of Christianity, like Catholics, Protestant, Quaker, Baptist ect.
From this graft we can see that even the newly formed Christianity started to offspring like Christianity to Judaism around the year 420ish
People called themselves Christians in the first century. Christianity came about in the first century and you know it. Christianity is based in Christ, who died in the first century.
Yes the same way you would call your self Protestant, it's still a faction of Christianity, just as Christianity was an faction to Judaism, it wasn't until 320ish that Christianity became its own religion.
It is irrelevant if it was a faction of Judaism. It was still considered to be Christianity; they called themselves Christians. Your arguments are pointless right now. It is irrelevant when Christianity was established officially as a world religion; the point is that Christianity was around in the first century. You know it; if you have anything to argue with, then present it. You have yet to present any evidence as to why Christianity was created.
Christianity was created from the teaching of Jesus I know that, my point again is it was still a offspring version of Judaism, they called themselves Christian Jews, heres the thing Judaism believed that a messiah will come, some Jews believed that messiah to be Jesus others did not, that ones that believed that Jesus was the messiah followed a version of Judaism based on the return of the messiah Jesus, it wasn't until 300ish that Christianity became it own religion braking off completely from Judaism and making Jesus not only the messiah but God himself in the image of man.
As for proof I already proved why Christianity was created, because the Emperor wanted to unity the people under one reasonable religion of that time.
All I got to say is read up on it yourself I can't change historical facts just to please your faith, that's not how reasonable people do things, I will tell you the facts to the best of my ability and if you want to agree with the facts or blindly follow your own version of History then I don't know what to say other then I'm sorry.
Christianity was created from the teaching of Jesus I know that, my point again is it was still a offspring version of Judaism, they called themselves Christian Jews, heres the thing Judaism believed that a messiah will come, some Jews believed that messiah to be Jesus others did not, that ones that believed that Jesus was the messiah followed a version of Judaism based on the return of the messiah Jesus
This is what the debate is referring to. Not this: "it wasn't until 300ish that Christianity became it own religion braking off completely from Judaism and making Jesus not only the messiah but God himself in the image of man. / As for proof I already proved why Christianity was created, because the Emperor wanted to unity the people under one reasonable religion of that time."
All I got to say is read up on it yourself I can't change historical facts just to please your faith, that's not how reasonable people do things, I will tell you the facts to the best of my ability and if you want to agree with the facts or blindly follow your own version of History then I don't know what to say other then I'm sorry.
I'm a history major. I know all about what you are talking about: Constantine and the Roman Empire and Christianity and the Council of Nicea; it is, however, irrelevant to the discussion as to why Christianity was created in the first place, which is the first century.....
As to what the debate is referring to, which you argued in your first paragraph: Why did the Jews believe Jesus to have been the Messiah?
And as a side note, they were considered to be Christians even then: “Nero inflicted punishment on the Christians, a sect given to a new and mischievous religious belief.” (Lives of the Caesars, 26.2)
I'm a professor what's your point?, that being said, sure okay they called themselves Christians during the first century, that still don't change the fact that it wasn't until 300 years after the death of Jesus that Christianity became it's own religion, up until that point it was Judaism being taught by a man named Jesus by his account or his version of Judaism, but still Judaism at it's core.
You do realize that Christianity is still Judaism at its core today, correct? Your argument is still irrelevant; stop committing red herrings. Answer the debate. If Christianity is fake, then why create it in the first place? If Jesus was not the Messiah, then why create it in the first place? The Christians were persecuted in the first century, there was no reason for them to follow something that they knew to be false. This belief was later applied to the Romans empire; however, it would not have been taken up, if it had not been already created in the first place.
No Christianity is not fake as a religion, as for the validity of it's truth well that's to question, and from what I gathered I think it's so called truth is fake.
So there happy : )
Why was it created, well for many, many reasons and is the reason I posted that video, to answers mans need for a god though out history, there is no single one reason and people have many reasons for creating a religion, but one reason for Christianities creation like I said is for political reasons at that time period.
Same reason why we today make things up, for our own benefit, Christianity was made up I think because people needed answers to questions they seek, like, why are we alive, why do we die, is there life after death, and so on, though out history religions have been made up by man to help explain the unknown, it was there version on knowledge, comfort, and peace and still is to this day.
They already had the questions answered in Judaism (Old Testament). There was no reason to start Christianity. Jesus warned His followers that they would be persecuted; what benefit is there for anyone, since Jesus died and His Apostles died and were tortured many times?
So let me ask you: why was it created if it were fake?
Besides from a political stand point in the year 320 AD when it became it's own religion not a version of Judaism.
The followers of Jesus, a denomination of Judaism started to call themselves Christians closely after the death of Jesus is unknown, my reasoning is because he became a martyr for his people, Jesus died to save the lives of his followers, many people felt that they would not let the man they so dearly loved and respected, Jesus to die in vain, so they took his teaching of Judaism and called it Christianity and started to spread his version of God's will, in turn created a massive separation in Judaism, kind of like the Catholics and Protestants of today, "an in house civil war in the name of a the Judeo monotheistic God".
Factions disagree, so why not create Christianity is the question, why not start your own version of the Judeo God if the version you were taught does not agree with you, I think that's mainly why the Jewish people that followed Jesus called themselves Christian or (Follower of Christ), as an idea or symbol of the version of Judaism they followed before it was officially a separate religion on it's own in the year 320 AD.
This does not follow, since the Jews of the time believed the Messiah to be the one who would lead them to take back their Holy Land. A person who would be their king on earth, not a king who would lead them spiritually. Also, this does not explain why Paul converted, since he was persecuting the Christians immensely and was a citizen of the Roman empire, and was one of the Jewish leaders, etc. He had no reason to convert unless he was hallucinating or if he truly did see the resurrected Christ. So I will ask you again: why did Christianity come about if it were false?
I don't know, that's just it, other then what's written in the holy books we have no way of proven beyond a reasonable doubt that any of this is true, even everything I have said up until this point is only 99% accurate and 99% because at least the council of nicaea and roman history is written in many forms though out the world even by it's enemies not just one book like the bible, and because we all know history is written by the victorious history can be misleading and that is the reason I question so many of the religious documents.
What Paul did or what not is not proven beyond scripture, or even if Jesus existed at all is in question by many scholars.
I'm sure, but the key word here is "Believe" not know to be true, 3000 years ago Historians believed "Thor and Zeus" to be true, but we proved them wrong right : )
And modern historians believe what I have been saying to be true. You see, you have found yourself in a tight spot: either you can admit that Jesus is God and Christianity is true, or you can deny that Jesus even existed and then things that i have been saying are false. You can't imagine that maybe God is real so you reject the former and hold to the latter.
Not at all, I can imagine a God, but not a biblical version of God, more of a life force, an energy or eternal consciousness, but I have no proof so I will remain agnostic on the subject until proven otherwise, as for your version of God I have a hard time believing the inconsistencies of books like the Bible, Koran, Torah and so on, so Yes I reject the God of Abraham as nonsense but the idea of a unknown force...hum now that's the grand trillion dollar question if you ask me.
I am Atheist when it comes to the God of Abraham like you are Atheist in the Greek God Zeus but I will forever remain Agnostic when it comes to a Creator.
If people need a reason to cope with the fact that they die, then why would anyone come up with a religion that stands for taking up your cross and following Christ? Why would anyone come up with that religion if our physical life is all there is?
why would anyone come up with a religion that stands for taking up your cross and following Christ?
I'm not familiar with that term. Can you clarify?
Why would anyone come up with that religion if our physical life is all there is?
Well, like I said, they want to believe that there's something more out there. I think that I should be a little bit more specific. I meant to say that people needed religion to answer the unknown questions, like: Where did we come from? Why does this happen? What happens to us when we die? Why is this person like that? Etc.
Christianity believes that we are too give back: out life will be symbolic of us taking up our cross and following God. Instead of being destroyed in eternity by God, we will be persecuted by the world and will have to work hard in the name of God.
Well, like I said, they want to believe that there's something more out there. I think that I should be a little bit more specific. I meant to say that people needed religion to answer the unknown questions, like: Where did we come from? Why does this happen? What happens to us when we die? Why is this person like that? Etc.
There were already answers for those. Many religions were already out there; why did Christianity come about, then?
Christianity believes that we are too give back: out life will be symbolic of us taking up our cross and following God.
Yes, but there's the added bonus of heaven. Do you think that anyone would still follow christianity if all we do is die and not go to heaven? Personally, I don't think so. Most people are naturally selfish.
There were already answers for those.
Well, I looked it up, and apparently christianity was founded sometime around the first century. Correct me if I'm wrong though. Back then, people were fairly primitive. They didn't understand what causes fire, or lightening, or thunder, or the stars at night. So really, there wasn't answers for many questions.
Many religions were already out there; why did Christianity come about, then?
Yes, but there's the added bonus of heaven. Do you think that anyone would still follow christianity if all we do is die and not go to heaven? Personally, I don't think so. Most people are naturally selfish.
Many other religions have heaven.
Well, I looked it up, and apparently christianity was founded sometime around the first century. Correct me if I'm wrong though. Back then, people were fairly primitive. They didn't understand what causes fire, or lightening, or thunder, or the stars at night. So really, there wasn't answers for many questions.
Greeks had already discovered that the earth was round. They were not primitives.
My guess is it was probably a means for control.
Christianity was persecuted. They had no control.
You have yet to present any case for why Christianity would have been created
I know that. I was just pointing out that without heaven, people probably wouldn't follow christianity. (or any other religion)
Greeks had already discovered that the earth was round. They were not primitives.
Yes, but were they as advanced as us? "The earth was round" is not one of the questions I listed.
Christianity was persecuted. They had no control.
I meant for controlling the masses. Like many other religions reason for creation.
You have yet to present any case for why Christianity would have been created
Christianity was created for the same reason many other religions were created. To answer the big questions that no one could answer and control others.
You are disrespectful of the religion that you claim to be a part of. How can you say that a religion that is centered around the idea that if you are good you will go to heaven isn't a way to cope with death?
I have shown no disrespect. Telling someone they are going to hell is apparently not disrespectful. Telling people about the sins they have committed is apparently not disrespectful. Revealing the truth to people is apparently not disrespectful. I have not done anything disrespectful to you if you have not been disrespectful to others.
How much did the early church gain? Were the Apostles not all killed for their beliefs? Were they not also tortured? Was it not so that the early church was persecuted?
Faith and religion satisfy a neurological function, with portions of the human population being more or less genetically predisposed towards belief. Religion satisfies an emotional need for false reassurance of the significance of the self and false knowledge of the heretofore unexplained. It also assists some in processing grief or other negative emotion.
Christianity, like all religions, exists not because it is true but because it assuages emotional needs. It provides a false sense of security and significance to help those of the species who are not genetically disposed towards coping with the reality of human existence with all of its insignificance and lack of meaning.
God was educating humans.firstly He ordered jews to take revenge no matter what happens.Secondly he ordered Christians to forgive people no matter what happens. And then he told muslims that making people pious is more important. if you believe punishment is necessary then take revenge and if forgivness will improve people's condition then forgive them.
Religion is just something that the lower classes kept because in a state of financial turmoil, the lower classes relied on their "faith" to keep any semblance of hope.
Thats the argument. Christianity's roots can only be divine: the Creation story at the time of it's writing was so abnormal, the notion of the triune God is just absolutely idiotic to most people, God being sovereign over all things was also a new concept, etc. If someone wanted to create a religion, then one would try to make it so that people wanted to join it and one that made sense to a lot of people. Christianity is the opposite of that in almost every respect.
It was created in hopes of being undeniable. The religion gives itself such a powerful deity. During that era people had no idea where meteors came from are what the sun exactly was. I could have said the sun is a goddess. People can't disprove me until they found evidence that says otherwise.
If someone wanted to create a religion, then one would try to make it so that people wanted to join it and one that made sense to a lot of people. Christianity is the opposite of that in almost every respect.
Not quite true. A religion, typically, must be undeniable. Back then the Christian doctrine was, practically, undeniable. Nobody has the knowledge we have now.
If someone wants to create a religion, yes, they want it to be undeniable. However, they want it to be that way because they want to gain followers. Christianity was deniable with its radical beliefs about things. There was no reason to make up things that are that radical, if they wanted to gain followers.
Christianity was not deniable in a complete sense. Many people were indoctrinated and wars were fought because of it. Christianity is not all the radical. You are exaggerating. The Greek Gods are radical. God is not. The Hindu Gods are radical. God is not.
I'm not sure that you are understanding. There was no reason for Christianity to have been created at the time it was created, let alone at all, since its beliefs were radical from anything else at the time, which included the Greek gods and the Hindu gods, which were both believed more so than Judaism.
Did Jesus castrate God? Nope. Cronus did. In fact Cronus ate all of his children except for Zeus. Now pause. That right there is radical. Better than the story of Lucifer. The storyline for the Greeks is even more creative and is quite insane. Now, just look at the Hindu gods and apply the same concept.
Actually, most creation stories of the time were about war. Refer to Ra, refer to the Chinese creation story, etc. Most religions of the time already had beliefs according to war and violence. Christianity came up with the first sovereign and alone creation story. Do not apply anachronism; look at the issue at the time: The Abrahamic Creation story was in the midst of many creation stories of violence and hate. Greek myth was not more radical.
Actually Greek mythology is practically about the social life of gods. Not war. War is irrelevant. No story compares to the Greek story. Even the Egyptian story is more radical. The Greek contained more violence and hatred. Don't bullshit me. Do you even know a lot about Greek mythology?
And the social lives of the gods was war and violence.
Don't bullshit me. Do you even know a lot about Greek mythology?
Not a lot; however, I take Ancient Greek as a foreign language and have many friends who are Classicists. I'm apart of eta sigma phi; I am also a history major, who has studied religion...
However, all of that is irrelevant, since the entire world believed that the Creation of the world was based in violence and hatred and sexuality, etc. Judaism was the first sole sovereign God that created morally.
And the social lives of the gods was war and violence.
Yeah you are a lost case.
Not a lot; however, I take Ancient Greek as a foreign language and have many friends who are Classicists. I'm apart of eta sigma phi; I am also a history major, who has studied religion...
And I am a Computer Engineer/Scientist, Astronomical Physicist, Biologist, and a Chemist. History fails me often. However Greek mythology is something I love.
Greek mythology is violent. War? Not so much. Social interactions are more relevant. Its like a story that only involves Gods. Much better than Christian Mythology.
The same kind of argument could be made in favor of unicorns:
Unicorns appear to have no root in reality. No one has ever seen anything like them, so exactly because they are so unlikely, no one could have ever imagined a unicorn. Since no one created the idea of a unicorn, someone must have observed a unicorn in reality. Therefore unicorns are real.
But unicorns aren't real. No matter how stupid the idea is, unicorns just won't somehow be real. For some reason, you are trying to say that since Christianity is idiotic, it must somehow be true. Honestly, no matter how much you are going to ridicule your own religion, it just won't become reality in the process.
I'm not sure that you are understanding the argument. The argument is that Christianity is insane, though not contradictory or illogical, simply out of the ordinary, and radical. There was not point in creating it, since there were many religions already, which all were based in war and violence and sexuality, etc. There was not reason to create Christianity unless it were true.
See I understand why you want to make this move. You are trying to turn all criticism against Christianity on it's head so that every argument against it is somehow shown to imply the validity of your position. If we were ignorant as to how little this changes the truth value of Christian beliefs, this would have been a beautiful move.
Of course it doesn't change the truth value of Christian beliefs: they are true. This is just a rhetoric strategy to show how the Christian beliefs are true.
Completely different scenario. Scientology is simply an economic pool that makes fun of religion in general; the creator of it said before he created it that he wanted to make up a religion. It is similar to the church of satan (or at least the one that I am thinking of), which is not a church dedicated to worshipping satan, but an atheistic group trying to be good. It is the same with the flying spaghetti monster. These scenarios and "religions" are made with the express purpose of making fun of religion for being illogical.
The scenario that I am referring to is a religion that is claimed to be true and believed to be true. They wanted people to join the church because they believed it to be true.
