it is art! why should it be too young for a 14 year old to pose naked for art? they have baby's naked in painting and photos they call art. and old people are they too old to be considered art? i mean how old is too old and how young is too young? they have 14 year old actors who do all sorts of things for instance drew barrmore she did drugs and shoots when she was young and miley Cyrus and everyone else who have done it. why is it not considered to be art? what gives you the right to say something is or isn't art? i mean art is the creation of something. and therefore is you create a good photo whether it be a 14 year old girl or a 20 year old girl who are you to say it isn't art???? Posted 93 days ago | Tagged As: yes it is art you fools
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It's not as simple as "of course" and it's not completely about whether or not it is right. There are a few factors that play into this situation. 1. Mental Health or Stability of the Poser. 1. Environmental Security 2. Proximity of Intimacy 4. Medium and Level of Graphic Detail 5. Intent 6. Incentive 7. Consequences If all of these are fulfilled without an issue and the well being of the poser is looked after, I cannot say that it would be wrong or that we shouldn't allow 14 year old's to pose. Posted 89 days ago | Tagged As: yes it is art you fools
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Exploitation is wrong no matter who the subject is - given this, why do we feel the need to say in addition to it that "14 year olds posing nude is wrong"? It is not underage nudity that is wrong, it is exploitation, and the matters should be handled separately. If a person abuses a position of authority - be it that they are older or that they are richer or that they are that person's boss - to force someone to do something they do not understand or which is explicitly against their will, then that is wrong. But we do not need to assume that just because the person is a minor, they cannot understand what is being done. I know persons who were mature at the age of thirteen, and I know persons older than myself whom I would not trust with their own lives. There are reasons why we have judges and juries who take the time to think about whether anyone has been wronged; because it requires human judgment to determine this. Mechanical special-cased laws, such as those prescribing definite age limits, can never accurately describe what is moral. To say that taking a photograph or painting or other depiction of a naked minor is wrong in all cases is tantamount to saying that nudity itself is wrong - a view I simply do not understand. Posted 89 days ago
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Underage nudity in the public arena is exploitation. A 14 year-old cannot provide meaningful consent. "But we do not need to assume that just because the person is a minor, they cannot understand what is being done." Actually we can. Increased understanding of brain development shows that within the teenage years, neurological development isn't particularly sufficient to provide teenagers with a rounded foundation for making mature decisions. The likelihood of a 14 year-old girl or boy having the faculties to seriously consider the short and long term consequences of such action is questionable at best. "There are reasons why we have judges and juries who take the time to think about whether anyone has been wronged; because it requires human judgment to determine this." Actually, it requires adult reasoning. That's why we don't put kids on the jury stand. "Mechanical special-cased laws, such as those prescribing definite age limits, can never accurately describe what is moral." But they can prescribe limitations that are beneficial for proper child development. "To say that taking a photograph or painting or other depiction of a naked minor is wrong in all cases is tantamount to saying that nudity itself is wrong - a view I simply do not understand." You can't understand it because this is absolute nonsense. It's patently, demonstrably absurd. Posted 89 days ago
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I think the question asking for right and wrong has already failed. Sure, if the owner of the 14 year old wants to sell their children then what will stop them? If art demands such a thing and people are willing to sell their children to make money then feel free. If people happen to use that as a source of sexual gratification then so what..? There are no negative consequences for anyone except maybe for the child who may or may not completely understand the nature of their actions but even adults dont understand why they do what they do so I doubt they can deem whether a child can pose naked or not at least with reasons. Posted 91 days ago
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"Right" is in the mind and eye of the beholder. Nudity has always been a part of the world of art and always will be no matter what the age of the model. The operative words here happen to be "for art" and not for pornographic purposes. While I should think it to be very difficult to find and receive parental permission to do so, I find nothing at all amiss with posing nude for the sake of art and most especially not if the artist is using chalks, watercolors, oils or sculpting as a technique. Photography would be my last choice in dealing with children or teens in an "artful" way. Posted 89 days ago | Tagged As: Pose any way you wish for art
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I would reject the very question on the basis that it is essentially useless. How do we define 'right' and who are you or I to say what is objectively 'right' or 'wrong'. Moral judgements are all essentially useless and serve no value. It is on this basis that I do not object (not claim it is 'right) to such photographs. Posted 91 days ago
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In these days... yes, it's wrong. it's called child pornography. it's really quite simple, it's illegal for someone to possess photographs of a naked child... and if there was ever someone who had a 14 year old pose naked for them, i would call them a pedophile. this whole art thing is bullshit. might as well say that slitting someone's throat and then videotaping them dying is just art. actually, that is the defense that psychopathic serial killers use. Posted 92 days ago
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So something being illegal makes it wrong? Funny, I thought it was supposed to be the other way around. I have cousins who are aged 12-15. A few years ago, we were on holiday in Crete, and they decided to play naked in a private pool at our rented residence. Their father took a picture of this. Does that make him a pedophile? Sure, it wasn't "posing", but hell, even if he had asked them to stop splashing around for a while so he could get a decent picture, would it be a sign of pedophilia? Or just of a parent wanting to keep a clear reminder of happy memories? Slitting someone's throat and them posing naked are hardly comparable. Obviously exploitation of a person is wrong, no-one is arguing against that - but what you are doing is jumping to the conclusion that the portrayal of underage nudity must be for purposes of exploitation, and this is simply not so. Obviously it can be, but so can many other non-illegalized things. The solution is not to also ban them, but to make exploitation illegal, and leave it to the courts to determine what was really going on - that is why they exist. Posted 89 days ago
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"I have cousins who are aged 12-15. A few years ago, we were on holiday in Crete, and they decided to play naked in a private pool at our rented residence. Their father took a picture of this. Does that make him a pedophile?" It certainly doesn't make him a pedophile. In and of itself. But he's not asking underage children to pose for "art" in a public arena. A private pool rented for family use and the public sphere are two different places and atmospheres of consideration. "Obviously exploitation of a person is wrong, no-one is arguing against that - but what you are doing is jumping to the conclusion that the portrayal of underage nudity must be for purposes of exploitation, and this is simply not so." How are you not exploiting fourteen year-old boys and girls by having them pose naked in order to be criticized and exposed for public consumption? Posted 89 days ago
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I don't believe underage teens or younger should be able to consent to nude photographs. I don't believe it is overtly pornographic, to believe so would be to believe that the naked human body is purely sexual; something that I don't find to be the case. I do think exceptions should be made for relatives of the children; I don't really care about parents taking pictures of their kids in the bathtub, my own mother did this. Otherwise, full-frontal nudity should be banned as it is not acceptable to coerce the underage to do things they do not understand/have a full grasp of. It is a protection against abuse and of the child's right to maintain control over his or her own body without the coercion, manipulation, or beliefs of adults overriding it. If they want to pose nude at 18, fine, let them; but until then they should be able to make up their mind without being subject to the wills, suggestions, desires, and economy of adults. A boy or girl at 16 does not understand the consequences and does not have the power to deal with whatever may come from their exhibition. They can take pictures of themselves all they want and deal with those consequences (if posted online they should be immediately taken down, of course), but how can they deal with a photographer taking and owning the license to a picture with their fully nude body? How are they going to deal with the publicity, the fact that they may be in a book or publication? Essentially, allowing them to pose naked for others is allowing their nudity to be bought and sold; taking it away from someone who doesn't even understand what that entails. I find this problematic and almost inviting problems that children simply cannot and shouldn't have to deal with. Pedophilia is only a part of the danger, though it is considerable. Posted 91 days ago
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Would you care to explain why 18 is some magical age where everybody suddenly gains an understanding's of their own interests and the right to decide what to do with their own lives. This is horse shit. It's my body, if I'm 16 and I want it plastered on the internet or on billboards I should have no restrictions to do so. Why is it up to a 'responsible adult' to decide a child's life for them. Please, drop the paternalism then you might be able to think without the moralistic and authoritarian hazy that surrounds your argument. Posted 91 days ago
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For one thing; the underaged can take as many pictures of themselves as they like. The issue I have is with displaying them in public places, selling, and distributing them. In effect; they are giving their body over to the general public, or certain members of the public. Children's lives are entirely up to "responsible adults"; unless you are against parenting I don't see what you mean here. Do parents not have legal rights over their children to see to their raising and welfare? Are they supposed to allow their children to pose naked for fear of being accused of wrongful imprisonment if they dare to incarcerate them in their rooms for a sentence of one weekend? 18 is not a magical age; it is an age where the average mental development and social/economic/political enfranchisement reaches an acceptably high level; a level to allow for physical independence. I use the age of 18 as a marker because this is what society has determined to be definitive of an adult. As far as I can tell the age of "adult" is, at most, too low and should be raised higher. Mental/ social maturity is certainly not well-developed before the age of 18 and it is arguable if it is achieved (by the average human being) before the age of 21. A major aspect of my argument IS the fact that people under the age of 18 are not independent and are not given the power (by society especially but also by nature) to handle situations that arise from having their nudity displayed to the world. It doesn't matter to me if the age of 18 is really definitive of adulthood in an objective way; what matters is that it is determined by society that it is. This enfranchisement is one of the key aspects of my argument. This is the same concept that bars people from selling themselves into slavery or children under a certain age from working full-time jobs in mines and factories: people are not able to give up certain rights and certain types of people are not able to enter into contracts/ take on certain responsibilities because of their physical, social, economic, or age status. If you do not believe there should be a set age to determine adulthood do you think that people under the age of 18 should be tried as adults for any and all crimes they commit? Should a ten year old be charged with manslaughter in the first degree if they play with their grandfather's gun and accidentally kill their friend? Should 15 year olds be charged with felonies if they steal a car and take it for a joy-ride around their home-town? Should we house people under the age of 18 in the same prisons as that house 30 year olds? Posted 91 days ago
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Bingo. I can't wait for the comments functionality to go live so that you can state your overwhelming agreement with somebody without having to make it an argument. Posted 90 days ago
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You're only picking on photography when there are so so many other ways to use a poser. Sculptures and paintings are two that I would consider safe if the final render isn't sexually explicit. Even then though there are situation that would allow this to be ok. If for instance it was a marble sculpture of two 14 year olds, two females, two males, or a male and female, that was intended to be sexually explicit, only accurate depictions of the body's are needed. The two don't need to be present at the same time, the two posers, so what's the problem? Is there anything threatening about it if the artist renders the sexual activity him or herself? I also think that good humane intent is behind any good artist's work. You know what I mean? There is always a reason for an artist to work, and if sexual deviance is in the intent there usually is a reason for it. Advocating homosexual acceptance, displaying the difference between physical maturity and mental maturity, or it may just be a symbol of innocence. There is a lot that a 14 year old body, male or female, could bring beyond sexual connotations. Even with the sexual aspect though, using a 14 year old body would be ideal because everyone older than 21 knows that the difference between a child, an adolescent. Anywhere from 10-17, we all feel the urge to screw, and in most cases it would be around 14 that we first figure this out, and yet the figure of a 14 year old suggests child like innocence, but with obvious differences that suggest maturing and the end of that innocence. Point is, even if it's sexual it could have meaning worth expressing. Posted 89 days ago | Tagged As: yes it is art you fools
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I specifically picked on photography (and video, though I didn't mention it specifically) over sculpture and paintings for the same reason I don't mention knives and blackjacks when talking about an individual's right to keep and bear arms; we are living in 2008, not 1611. When talking about the repercussions of allowing the public display of underage nudity the finer art forms of sculpture, painting, lithograph, wood carvings, cave paintings, and totem poles are left out due to their smaller distribution and composition of the current media economy and popular art. I still disagree with a child being used for painting and sculpture, but I am perfectly willing to make an exception due to the lower threat associated with it and the unlikelyhood of unsavory characters using the venue for exploitative or disgusting purposes. Still, the threat is still there and most of what I said about photography can be laid against the other art forms, though to a lesser degree. I do take exception to some of your propositions and what I perceive to be your priorities. For one, you make this strange statement: "I also think that good humane intent is behind any good artist's work. You know what I mean?" There are a couple of things wrong with this: legalizing the public display of underage nudity does not, without a qualifier, prevent it from being used by non-good artists. To be honest, most "artists" fall around the mediocre-bad range, not good. Secondly, there are plenty of unsavory, malicious, or otherwise unscrupulous good artists out there. From Nazis, to rapists, to serial killers and child molesters, there are plenty of good artists with disturbed personalities and/or terrible motives. "Point is, even if it's sexual it could have meaning worth expressing." This, and the sentences preceding it which indicate that nude and even sexual public displays of nude children and teens have artistic value are disturbing to a certain extent. Anything has artistic value; gutting a human being and arranging his or her internal organs into a religious symbol is jam-packed with meaning. The problem is; is this meaning worth the possible (or inevitable) repercussions or abuses? I err on the side of protecting children from abuse, not artistic fulfillment. Just as in science, war, economics; art doesn't have full license to do whatever it wants in the name of itself. No matter how pure the motives are I don't feel it is worth the risk. Consenting adults can do whatever they wish with their body and likeness; children, however, should not be put at risk for mere artistic fulfillment. Artists can still create the likeness of a nude child without the use of an actual nude body, I don't care much about that; but I do not want children to have their naked bodies laid at the feet of art or commerce, to be used to further the careers, bank accounts, or perversions of an adult population hungry for all manner of unsavory satisfactions. Posted 89 days ago
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So by photography and film you cover all art in 2008. I am well aware of the year and I know what is popular. If you want to argue photograghy do it, but do not try to answer the debate with that because the debate states "art", which is not specific to photography. Have you read "Brave New World" by Aldous Huxley? This book as an expression, depicted what we would call pornographic material involving children as young as 10. I might have shuttered when reading about it but I felt it was necessary to understand the social dynamics of the society. With all due respect, your response only shows that you expect perversion where there is a nude 14 year old body. Also, when I said "I also think that good humane intent is behind any good artist's work. You know what I mean", When put in it's right context I was sort of saying that you can tell a good artist from a bad quite easily via common sense. What exactly is the risk? I'm thinking of, you know, year 1611 sorts of risks because that's obviously where my mind is at this point, year 1611, so I'm not quite sure what you mean. If you're going to do something like that, it would be wise to have a attorney present, and I think that follows common sense. What would happen that would get so out of control? (I agree with you about artists recreating the nude 14 year old without a model, but the debate is clear and I am arguing the debate. "Is it right for a 14 year old to pose naked for art?") Posted 89 days ago
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That's all well and good, save for the fact that I clarified my position and indicated that what I said about photography can be said about the other forms of art (though to a lesser degree). Argue all you want about my stance, but to argue against a technical fault (not mentioning other major art forms specifically) is moot when I, in the second argument, clarified my position and included them. You're beating a dead horse now, I already answered your criticism. "With all due respect, your response only shows that you expect perversion where there is a nude 14 year old body." That is a flat-out misrepresentation. I expect misuse of underage nudity if the general policy was acceptance and legalization. I never indicated that every child that has his nudeness reproduced and distributed would find themselves perverted or abused, I just indicated that it is likely to occur in general. In other words; and I said this repeatedly, the policy would put children at risk, not lead to problems in every single case. You are taking my well-rounded and balanced argument and hurling it into an extreme without any reference point indicating I actually believe that. "What exactly is the risk? I'm thinking of, you know, year 1611 sorts of risks because that's obviously where my mind is at this point, year 1611, so I'm not quite sure what you mean." You are really losing my argument, I thought I was quite clear. Let me repeat: I used "1611" as a date in which the major art forms were sculpture and painting. What I said, very clearly, was that I ignored sculpture and painting because these are no longer the most popular and widely used media/art forms in the U.S. or world. I focused on what was going to be the biggest problem, not what is marginal in the discussion. I was merely answering to your charge about ignoring other forms of media and focusing on photography. "If you're going to do something like that, it would be wise to have a attorney present, and I think that follows common sense. What would happen that would get so out of control?" That sort of naivety is striking, especially when dealing with vulnerable groups of people. Do I need to bring up the eras in which child labor was legal? Do you think they didn't have attorneys then? Do you think the children that worked in mines didn't have parents? The threat to poor children, children with ignorant or neglectful parents, homeless children, orphans is the most disconcerting. Sure, the children of Donald Trump or a middle-class, college-educated family would be at a smaller risk for abuse and exploitation; but children whose parents are gullible (there are plenty) or ignorant or in dire financial straights are at an extremely vulnerable position. We don't trust the economy to employ children, why would we trust them with their naked bodies? Let me, again, clarify my argument: While allowing children under the age of 18 to be employed not every single child will be exploited. However, there is certainly a danger of exploitation and it is certain that many will be. The cost-benefit of allowing children under the age of 18 full license to work without regulation (15-18 year olds can work but only part time and so long as their schooling does not suffer) is simply not worth it. The same goes for art; not all children will be abused or exploited but it is likely to happen; especially in photography and video. Is it really worth it to sacrifice a portion of the underage community for the sake of art? What is to stop an abusive parent from taking sexually explicit pictures of their children to sell to pedophiles? According to you it would be perfectly legal so long as they deemed it "art". What is to stop a director from pressuring a young actor with nude scenes in order to generate more buzz and revenue for their movie? "Also, when I said "I also think that good humane intent is behind any good artist's work. You know what I mean", When put in it's right context I was sort of saying that you can tell a good artist from a bad quite easily via common sense." Your explanation makes even less sense. Are you saying we should ban bad artists from using underage nudes? Are you saying there aren't any gullible or ignorant parents that wouldn't agree to let their children be used by a bad but convincing artist? Even if the "artist" was good; what is to keep the reproduction from falling into despicable hands? What if the artist's rent is up and all he can do to make a enough money in time is to sell little Susy's nudity to some sleazy car salesman from Reno, Nevada? What's to keep these images of children from being disseminated all over the internet, worming their way into dens of pedophilia? If it is legal there isn't going to be a single lawyer in the U.S. who could do anything about it. After all, it would be perfectly legal to have naked children on your computer, on your walls, under your bed. According to you "Point is, even if it's sexual it could have meaning worth expressing." If that sentence became policy child pornography would become legal, you do realize that, don't you? So long as they are not "actually" having sex, just made to look like it, it would be perfectly legal (just like any pornographic movie). All nudity and sexual representation of children would fall under the umbrella "art"; and unless you believe that there is an objective way to differentiate between "art" and pornography then you've provided no method of stopping child pornography from becoming legal (de facto, though not de jure). | |