CreateDebate is a social debate community built around ideas, discussion and democracy.
If this is your first time checking out a debate, here are some quick tips to help get you started:
Arguments with the highest score are displayed first.
Argument replies (both in favor and in opposition) are displayed below the original argument.
To follow along, you may find it helpful to show and hide the replies displayed below each argument.
To vote for an argument, use these icons:
You have the power to cast exactly one vote (either up or down) for each argument.
Once you vote, the icon will become grayed out and the argument's score will change.
Yes, you can change your vote.
Debate scores, side scores and tag scores are automatically calculated by an algorithm that primarily takes argument scores into account.
All scores are updated in real-time.
To learn more about the CreateDebate scoring system, check out the FAQ.
When you are ready to voice your opinion, use the Add Argument button to create an argument.
If you would like to address an existing argument, use the Support and Dispute link within that argument to create a new reply.
You can share this debate in three different ways:
#1
#2
#3
Paste this URL into an email or IM:
Click here to send this debate via your default email application.
Click here to login and CreateDebate will send an email for you.
neutering and spaying
I believe that animals have a rights. If animals could talk hey would say no to spaying and neutering. They would most likely say that .
There other operations to keep them from having baby's . There more morally right to because they will not effect there sexual desire or involve the removal of a body part.
Sterilization of pets is only one answer to overpopulation of strays. We also operate kennels where we gather and kill stray dogs and cats. Should we pursue prevention or killing as a solution to stray cat and dogs. It is most certainly a problem for animal lover's everywhere who don't want these strays to suffer a life of lonely scavenging or being captured and killed.
How about we stop put them down and stop neutering and spaying all together. I'm for sure a animal lover and have spent my whole life being by there side nature will balance its self out trust me. We human try to balance out in the rivers but now we, don't know what to put in the rivers to eat the carp. Thanks to us I most catch carp, there is no real overpopulation of dogs and cats its just us not wanting the strays eating are garbage, live stock, being in are yards or in the streets, shoot if a crazy driver had her own way she would ban everyone off the streets but her, because even we don't like each other on the streets.
Please just say no to spaying and neutering, because there is a different operation just ask the vet office but it may cost like 10 dollar's more.
How about we stop put them down and stop neutering and spaying all together. I'm for sure a animal lover and have spent my whole life being by there side nature will balance its self out trust me.
No, it won't. That is why you run into things like deer populations booming out of control and destroying entire ecosystems.
We human try to balance out in the rivers but now we, don't know what to put in the rivers to eat the carp. Thanks to us I most catch carp, there is no real overpopulation of dogs and cats its just us not wanting the strays eating are garbage,
Many of us don't want the strays because we already have dogs and cats, hence the overpopulation.
live stock, being in are yards or in the streets, shoot if a crazy driver had her own way she would ban everyone off the streets but her, because even we don't like each other on the streets.
What the hell are you trying to say?
Please just say no to spaying and neutering, because there is a different operation just ask the vet office but it may cost like 10 dollar's more.
Then tell us, specifically, what other option there is to prevent litters from cats and dogs from being born hungry and cold just to lead a feral life in a habitat they are not adapted to live in?
Yes it well, there is no deer overpopulation just humans moving into there area and also if there was a little increases in there population, its most likely because someone said owe no there is a overpopulation of wolves or bob cat so guss what they start being hunted and than there well not be any wolves to take care of the deer. Nature will balance itself out but it can't if we keep moving onto there area.
Like I said there is no overpopulation and the explanation is the reasons I listed before that caused humans to come up with a reason, like overpopulation so they don't have to take responsibility for the selfishness and there cause of a little increase in cats and dogs population.
1000 years ago I bit there was more deer, wolves together than us but not now because there is to many of us.
I can't remember the name but its very close to what humans get to prevent a pragnacy permanently.
Yes it well, there is no deer overpopulation just humans moving into there area and also if there was a little increases in there population, its most likely because someone said owe no there is a overpopulation of wolves or bob cat so guss what they start being hunted and than there well not be any wolves to take care of the deer. Nature will balance itself out but it can't if we keep moving onto there area.
We exist. We live here. I agree that, ideally, we could leave nature to sort itself out, but we can't because that time has already passed.
Like I said there is no overpopulation and the explanation is the reasons I listed before that caused humans to come up with a reason,
No, you have listed the reasons why there is deer overpopulation. Just because we are the cause does not negate the fact that said overpopulation exists.
like overpopulation so they don't have to take responsibility for the selfishness and there cause of a little increase in cats and dogs population.
For the life of me, I can not figure out what you are trying to say here.
1000 years ago I bit there was more deer, wolves together than us but not now because there is to many of us.
Irrelevant to the topic at hand.
I can't remember the name but its very close to what humans get to prevent a pragnacy permanently.
Spaying and neutering, by different names, are operations that humans get to prevent a pregnancy permenantly.
No time has past because we could stop today, like I said and gave good reasons why there is no deer overpopulation its just us overpopulating this world that it became so dense that it seems to be a overpopulation of deer.
No there is a operation that will not effect the sex drive and will prevent pragnacy.
So does that mean the animals have to pay the price.
Dogs and cats can survive on there own, it just that humans don't want them in are garbage or a stray dog attacking a person. We put them down for nothing, humans get special care but no animals just need a shot or they just don't have space to put them, and bam to death row. There's more humans than dogs and cats put together, there is for sure no over population of cats and dogs.
Yes the RSPCA should because people like me gives them money to, yes I send money but doesn't mean I like everything they do.
Dogs and cats are not a problem to wildlife, because it's humans that are a problem to wildlife. If anything we could says kids in Africa are a problem because millions of them die a year, because of hunger or disease, so should we just start neutering and spaying them?
Your false, sorry. Because at first you basically said big problem now your just saying a problem. Maybe it can cause a problem to wild life but very little so its not a threat or is going to be at all.
We are a bigger threat to both dogs, cats and wild life, so lets neuter and spay are self's before we take it out on another being.
We are a bigger threat to both dogs, cats and wild life, so lets neuter and spay are self's before we take it out on another being.
I think you meant a bigger threat than cats and dogs to wild life, but one way or another your response was irrelevant to the comment you were referring to here.
That is one page, plus it says cats live in human areas so it can't really effect bob cats and most other wild life and plus like people say there's to many raccoons, so cats do very little or just no effect to wild. Its nature that allows to species like cat and fox to live even if there is competition for food and if not evolution will take its effect.
I said humans do more damage to wild life than stray cats and dogs, so we should neuter are selves before cats. Plus if true cats do, do massive damage to wild life than that's are fault anyway.
That is one page, plus it says cats live in human areas so it can't really effect bob cats and most other wild life and plus like people say there's to many raccoons, so cats do very little or just no effect to wild. Its nature that allows to species like cat and fox to live even if there is competition for food and if not evolution will take its effect.
You have been provided evidence from multiple sources yesterday and today that shows you are wrong. There is no point talking to you if you are going to respond by saying, essentially, "Nuh uh".
I said humans do more damage to wild life than stray cats and dogs, so we should neuter are selves before cats. Plus if true cats do, do massive damage to wild life than that's are fault anyway.
Again, a non-argument. Deflection does nothing to argue for or against neutering dogs and cats.
Plus if true cats do, do massive damage to wild life than that's are fault anyway.
The existence of domesticated dogs and the modern domesticated house cat is our fault, so what is your point?
We send them contraception and educate them to try and help them with unwanted (sometimes dangerous) pregnancy, disease and another mouth they cannot afford to feed. So yeah, we kind of do..
The overpopulation of animals (because of human ignorance) is responsible for the deaths of millions of innocent animals every year. If more people would spay and neuter, and take advantage of TNR programs, and NOT BREED ANIMALS - there would be no reason to murder them in shelters every single day. If you are against spaying and neutering, you are responsible for the needless deaths of millions of perfectly healthy, innocent lives every single year.
They are spayed and neutered because there are almost 70 million stray cats in the US alone. It is just economics.
Try to imagine if there were 120 million (dogs and cats estimate) homeless people in the US and they were able to survive and breed. What do you think the government would do?
Who fault was that?, it was are fault all the cross breeding and other thing's like that caused it. And honestly 70 million is a healthy population amount, unlike us over 400 million humans in the U.S. but if you think about it the homeless rate would be 1 homeless person on every street.
We don't need a big population to survive because were smarter but cats, dogs, and other animals need a very big population to survive.
There a place in Britain where there is like 20 to 30 cats on each street but guess what nobody cares there because it's not a problem. America thinks it would become a problem but it wouldn't truly. Look up (3 mouth cat research behavior study).
Who fault was that?, it was are fault all the cross breeding and other thing's like that caused it. And honestly 70 million is a healthy population amount, unlike us over 400 million humans in the U.S. but if you think about it the homeless rate would be 1 homeless person on every street.
You are confused about the analogy or you are just terrible at analogies.
The 70 million is the population of stray/feral cats (not including stray dogs). This does not include cats with actual homes. The 400 million people living in the US are not stray/feral, they have homes. This is why I equated the stray cats to the homeless population and not the home-ed population.
It would be far more than 1 homeless person per street. We can use some basic logic here. For urban areas, several hundred people will live on one street. For suburban areas, it would be be less than one hundred. For rural areas, it would be in the teens or less. How does a ratio of 400 to 70 lead to 1 homeless person per street?
This is ignoring stray dogs by the way which would mean 400 to 120.
We don't need a big population to survive because were smarter but cats, dogs, and other animals need a very big population to survive.
This sentence makes no sense. Your premise makes no sense and I have no idea how you arrived at the conclusion from your premise.
There a place in Britain where there is like 20 to 30 cats on each street but guess what nobody cares there because it's not a problem. America thinks it would become a problem but it wouldn't truly. Look up (3 mouth cat research behavior study).
Stray cats are disease vectors. They tend to spread disease to other cats within the community, including those with owners.
After a couple of generations, abandoned cats become feral. They will attack humans.
Even all together its not overpopulated, but who said neutering and spaying is the only option. There's another way to prevent them from having babys and it wouldn't effect there sexual behavior at all and it will not remove any body parts from the animal.
Like I said is it there fault?
House hold cats attack humans so, and most dog and cat diseases doesn't effect us. Should we start neutering and spaying homeless people too?
Neutering and spaying is like rape so its bad and we shouldn't do it. Nobody would be ok with you removing, there balls or lessoning the desire to have sex. Most likely if a animal could talk it would say no to neutering and spaying.
Even all together its not overpopulated, but who said neutering and spaying is the only option. There's another way to prevent them from having babys and it wouldn't effect there sexual behavior at all and it will not remove any body parts from the animal.
How is it not overpopulated? Many strays do not survive after birth. Food and shelter are not readily available to homeless animals or people.
What is this other way?
Like I said is it there fault?
It doesn't matter who's fault it is. Humans hold dominance over animals. Neutering/Spaying is not a form of abuse or punishment; it is a means to an end. It also prevents the unnecessary suffering of future generations of strays.
House hold cats attack humans so, and most dog and cat diseases doesn't effect us. Should we start neutering and spaying homeless people too?
Domesticated cats attack people far less than feral cats. Aggressiveness is an exception to domesticated animals, it is part of the definition for feral animals.
Why would we castrate homeless people? They are not the cause for more homelessness.
Neutering and spaying is like rape so its bad and we shouldn't do it. Nobody would be ok with you removing, there balls or lessoning the desire to have sex. Most likely if a animal could talk it would say no to neutering and spaying.
If animals could speak, they would tell people to stop abandoning them to die on the streets. Since people won't stop abandoning animals, we can only use trap-neuter-return programs to stem the breeding.
So do many children in Africa don't survive and I don't care if were higher in the food chain. I forgot what that operation is called but humans get it to.
Neutering and spaying is abuse because it will not end because there will always be unwanted animals. You can't just neuter and spay untill the population is under control but you got to keep doing it. Are you saying that just because we are higher than them means we don't have to take credit for are actions and thus bully them around.
Wild cats don't bite humans more than house cats, well unless you mess with them than you fucking deserve it.
They would not say that because humans would rather be kicked out of the house than be neutered plus be treated as lesser being, called baby names, be chained, so the more realistic thing they would say fine kick me out because your sure in the hell not neutering me.
House cats and dogs could survive out on the street. There is no excuse for this horrible act that is happening, please just say no to spaying and neutering, and just choose a different operation.
So do many children in Africa don't survive and I don't care if were higher in the food chain. I forgot what that operation is called but humans get it to.
Stray animals and homeless/poor people are fundamentally different because we treat them differently. We put down or spay/neuter animals that we cannot care for, most nations in the 21st century frown upon putting down/castrating homeless/poor people.
Are you saying that just because we are higher than them means we don't have to take credit for are actions and thus bully them around.
I am talking about it from a practical stance. Until people care about animals enough to stop abandoning them, the only solution is to spay/neuter. If you really cared about animals, then you should work on educating people about responsible pet ownership. That is the only way.
They would not say that because humans would rather be kicked out of the house than be neutered plus be treated as lesser being, called baby names, be chained, so the more realistic thing they would say fine kick me out because your sure in the hell not neutering me.
Living on the street as a stray is a lot worse than castration. There are no homeless shelters for cats and dogs (at least none like human shelters). They have to avoid cars, people that abuse animals for laughs, animal control, starvation, weather, diseases, etc.
Food, shelter, and companionship for baby names and a collar is generally a good deal. Ask any of the starving homeless people in developing countries.
You are also presenting a false dichotomy. It is not only a choice between abandonment and ownership. The whole point of spaying and neutering is to prevent either one. If you prevent birth of new animals to abandon or own, there is no choice necessary.
House cats and dogs could survive out on the street.
They don't though. Most strays do not even make it past the first winter in colder regions.
Feral cats and dogs can survive in the wild. They do not survive well in urban areas. Far more stray cats and dogs die on the street than are put down by shelters. Shelters put down about 3 million animals a year in the US.
There is no excuse for this horrible act that is happening, please just say no to spaying and neutering, and just choose a different operation.
I already asked you before. What is this different operation?
You have not provided a better alternative. All you are doing is criticizing the current method without providing an alternative. If we just stop spaying and neutering without enacting a viable alternative, more animals will suffer and die.
Well that's wrong. And animals deserve better, that's sad because they think its ok to do it to another species just because they can.
So you would rather be neutered, than have a chance to have some special fun in your life than that's you but most wouldn't. Like I said there is no overpopulation its a meth, that is spread because we are greedy and are not able to let them Rome free or eat out of are garbage can. This is also true about people who that there too many deer or wolves, but that's not true its just to many of us.
What the hell do you think people have to avoid, the same thing. Those kids in India cars, rapest's, starvation, disease, weather. I mean dam things happen in life. My friend next do has a dog that's stay out side all year long ever sense he was 3 and know he's 9, my my dad has a out side cat and she seems to do ok in the winter. Yes every once an a well I see a dead animal on a street but humans get killed my cars everyday, so does that mean we can't survive the outdoors or overpopulated, no!
No a kid from Africa would not rather be neutered and be treated like a kid his hole life. Being a pet is bad, the only reason why pets are happy with it is because they were breed, burn to be happy in that type of environment, but if they would to be set free they will soon not liking to go back in side or badly do want to be back in because they had a bad experience. The ones that don't want to come back it probably found someone to mate with or just the areas ok that they really don't care for being in doors.
Did you know spayed and neutered dogs and cats get bullied by none spayed and neutered dogs and cats, because the spayed and neutered dog's and cats don't have as much of a need to feel to protect themselves.
I would rather have a chance to mate live in a Bader environment, than live in a house were my rake is 0, neutered, be called names over and over, and chained up.
False, there's more dogs and cats that get put down than get killed out on the street. But they still can survive in urban area's.
There is truly another operation just ask the vet office, it for people like me to choose because I don't believe its right to alter a beings feelings, but my dog didn't get it, so I can't really remember it. It's not well know because it hasn't been available for has long as spaying and neutering has, and also people are to selfish to get this operation because another reason why people spay and neuter because they can't deal with the behavior of the unspayed and unneutered pet. So it does cost like 10 dollors more because this operation is not well funded and advertised.
I think we are just going to have to agree to disagree on this subject.
Well that's wrong. And animals deserve better, that's sad because they think its ok to do it to another species just because they can.
I already addressed the current attitude towards domestication of animals. I claimed that spaying and neutering is a practical solution. You claimed that there was a better alternative. You have yet to present this better alternative.
So you would rather be neutered, than have a chance to have some special fun in your life than that's you but most wouldn't. Like I said there is no overpopulation its a meth, that is spread because we are greedy and are not able to let them Rome free or eat out of are garbage can. This is also true about people who that there too many deer or wolves, but that's not true its just to many of us.
In case you haven't realized it yet, if an animal dies during its first winter as a stray, it will not have had a chance for "some special fun". Mortality rates for strays are extremely high.
What source do you have that shows overpopulation is a myth? You have claimed this twice without providing a source or even an explanation as to why there is no overpopulation.
What the hell do you think people have to avoid, the same thing. Those kids in India cars, rapest's, starvation, disease, weather. I mean dam things happen in life.
I already addressed this as well: "Stray animals and homeless/poor people are fundamentally different because we treat them differently."
Not sure why you are still confused.
My friend next do has a dog that's stay out side all year long ever sense he was 3 and know he's 9, my my dad has a out side cat and she seems to do ok in the winter.
You are talking about pets with owners. Outdoor pets are different from stray animals. This should be obvious. I am not sure why you think two of your personal experiences can refute data collected at the national level.
No a kid from Africa would not rather be neutered and be treated like a kid his hole life. Being a pet is bad, the only reason why pets are happy with it is because they were breed, burn to be happy in that type of environment, but if they would to be set free they will soon not liking to go back in side or badly do want to be back in because they had a bad experience. The ones that don't want to come back it probably found someone to mate with or just the areas ok that they really don't care for being in doors.
Your conclusion relies on the assumption that a stray can survive. Your assumption does not fit with reality. People that have no food and shelter will do anything for it.
Did you know spayed and neutered dogs and cats get bullied by none spayed and neutered dogs and cats, because the spayed and neutered dog's and cats don't have as much of a need to feel to protect themselves.
Source? Self preservation does not stop simply because of lower hormone levels.
I would rather have a chance to mate live in a Bader environment, than live in a house were my rake is 0, neutered, be called names over and over, and chained up.
It depends on the owner. Most indoor pets do not require leashes, some don't even require collars.
This chance you speak of is extremely slim.
False, there's more dogs and cats that get put down than get killed out on the street. But they still can survive in urban area's.
It is basic knowledge that far more strays die on the street. Even PETA supports the euthanasia of strays as a humane solution.
You have made several claims now, but have not provided any sources or explanations.
There is truly another operation just ask the vet office, it for people like me to choose because I don't believe its right to alter a beings feelings, but my dog did get it so I can't really remember it. It's not well know because it hasn't been available for has long as spaying and neutering has, and also people are to selfish to get this operation because another reason why people spay and neuter because they can't deal with the behavior of the unspayed and unneutered pet. So it does cost like 10 dollors more because this operation is not well funded and advertised.
You are probably talking about chemical castration. It is effectively the same thing. They are no longer able to produce offspring.
Sorry, but its hard to do things on a little ass phone.
We should just agree to disagree because untill I get a computer witch will not be for another mouth, we will just keep going around in circles untill than. Also it is hard to find data that people don't want to believe. Just because you can find good data on something doesn't mean its true.
Everybody can believe something doesn't mean its true, so how am I going to show you data anyway when no one believes it. Most high webs sites use simply logic and say its true, and why do we believe it because no ones going to call a scientist, a judge, or the government a lier. Those two animals are strays they just come by once in a bit and we just say there are animals so no one will pick them up off the street. Simply logic why do strays die so much is because we put them down.
I given you lots of explanations, if you say there is a overpopulation than how would that be when millions get put down and have a slim chance to mate and even than they don't survive the first winter, like you said it your self. I just gave you an explanations on why there is no over population.
I'm not confuse, I'm just saying its still wrong to treat them that differently.
That link goes to a page that at the top says magazine on it and all I see is opinions. The national level studys are many small study that is not fully accurate because you can't just do a small study and say this is a accurate ratio% of this many of this, because it can really be wrong.
No homeless person would have them selves neutered, its simply not realistic, specially when both human and dog can easily get food out of the garbage, shoot cats catch mice easly for food, there is still to many ways for both homeless and stray's to get food.
I'm not talking about them protecting them selves from being killed but from being bullied, over raked, humped by other dogs.
I'm talking out side, being chained up, how would you like being chained up like a bitch? Most pets are treated as the first to go, so tell me is that true caring or I like but if something comes up than or well.
If that's the name of it than why not just do that?
Everybody can believe something doesn't mean its true, so how am I going to show you data anyway when no one believes it. Most high webs sites use simply logic and say its true, and why do we believe it because no ones going to call a scientist, a judge, or the government a lier.
You have it backwards.
Scientists make conclusions based on data.
You are trying to find data to support your conclusion.
Those two animals are strays they just come by once in a bit and we just say there are animals so no one will pick them up off the street. Simply logic why do strays die so much is because we put them down.
How is your random guess logical? The estimate for annual euthanasia of animals is less than 3 million. The estimate for annual deaths of stray animals is over 20 million.
I given you lots of explanations, if you say there is a overpopulation than how would that be when millions get put down and have a slim chance to mate and even than they don't survive the first winter, like you said it your self. I just gave you an explanations on why there is no over population.
This sentence makes no sense.
That link goes to a page that at the top says magazine on it and all I see is opinions. The national level studys are many small study that is not fully accurate because you can't just do a small study and say this is a accurate ratio% of this many of this, because it can really be wrong.
That link was to show that PETA, an animal activist group that puts animal lives ahead of human lives, believes euthanasia is more humane than letting strays die on the street.
If those studies are wrong, then point out the errors in their methods. Better yet, provide a study that is correct and explain how it differs from studies by organizations like the ASPCA.
No homeless person would have them selves neutered, its simply not realistic, specially when both human and dog can easily get food out of the garbage, shoot cats catch mice easly for food, there is still to many ways for both homeless and stray's to get food.
I didn't say homeless people would be neutered. I said society treats homeless humans differently from homeless animals. We have far more assistance programs for homeless people. This is why we don't spay/neuter homeless people or euthanize them.
I'm talking out side, being chained up, how would you like being chained up like a bitch? Most pets are treated as the first to go, so tell me is that true caring or I like but if something comes up than or well.
This was my point. People don't care about pets that much. They will regularly abandon them which leads to uncontrolled breeding and overpopulation. Until people change their attitudes, the only solution is to spay/neuter and euthanization.
I have asked you many times. You still have not provided an alternative solution.
All you have done is complain that the current methods are inhumane. What you fail to realize is that the current methods are aimed at reducing overall suffering in the stray population. If we stop current procedures without a viable alternative, more animals will suffer.
Not all science is off of date but the most realistic out come or answer. You can't just do a little study on the population and except it to be accurate. Thing's like big study's is it cost too much and a full scale study will cost millions. It's hard to find pages and to link them on this phone.
I should do my own website and do more research and stuff that takes lots of time, I have somebody to take care of and a job.
Yes of course, and also 20 million pets die every year too, it doesn't matter if 20 million die because that is a healthy rate of death per birth.
How does it not make sense?
There's lots of activates groups that have different opinions and different date, you can't just you one little page. I'm sorry but you can't always believe what you see on the internet. You got to have experience. In person.
And that's why society is wrong, you do it to others but not your on kind what's wrong with are hearts.
You don't need to control breeding because nature will take care of its self.
Yes I did, its called getting a different operation.
Not all science is off of date but the most realistic out come or answer. You can't just do a little study on the population and except it to be accurate. Thing's like big study's is it cost too much and a full scale study will cost millions. It's hard to find pages and to link them on this phone.
You don't need a full scale scientific study. These are just statistics. If you want to argue against the statistics of the ASPCA, come up with a reasonable argument.
All you have done is claim they are wrong because the study is too small. Do you even understand how sample sizes or distributions work? You can argue against the methods to discredit the statistics, but you would need to understand it first.
Yes of course, and also 20 million pets die every year too, it doesn't matter if 20 million die because that is a healthy rate of death per birth.
So you are fine with 20+ million stray animals dying annually and even more suffering, but have a problem with spaying/neutering because it is inhumane?
There's lots of activates groups that have different opinions and different date, you can't just you one little page. I'm sorry but you can't always believe what you see on the internet. You got to have experience. In person.
Which part do you not believe? This is PETA's official stance on euthanasia.
And that's why society is wrong, you do it to others but not your on kind what's wrong with are hearts.
You don't need to control breeding because nature will take care of its self.
I already said that this depended on the society's attitude towards domestication of animals as pets.
If people want pets, then they are responsible for them.
There is no nature involved. These pets live in urban areas. Getting run over by a car is not how nature usually takes care of overpopulation.
Just to clarify, your objection to spaying/neutering is because you consider cruel and inhumane?
Yes I did, its called getting a different operation.
Which operation? You keep saying a different solution/operation, but you don't specific which one.
Yes you do for it to be fully accurate and even than somebody still can switch up the data results if they don't find what they like. I do have a reasonable argument but sorry to say but you and many others are corrupt in the mind to realize, what simple and realistic logic I'm giving you. What do you not get?
Yes, because that's a healthy death per birth %. Are you fine with children suffering.
Like you say, there's a slim chance of mating and them surviving the first winter and if what you say is true than how would there be a overpopulation if they can't even survive the first winter.
And like I said I don't give a shit what society thinks because what there doing is horribly wrong. Starvation is part of nature. Living a short dignify life is better than being a pet.
What the fuck, I don't have to give you the god dam name to the operation for there to be another solution. So what if I'm not specific that doesn't mean that there not a different solution.
Yes you do for it to be fully accurate and even than somebody still can switch up the data results if they don't find what they like. I do have a reasonable argument but sorry to say but you and many others are corrupt in the mind to realize, what simple and realistic logic I'm giving you. What do you not get?
So you are saying that all data is wrong because all humans are corrupt? Organizations like the ASPCA are falsifying numbers in order to further their agenda?
Somehow, you are the only one that knows the truth; even though you have collected no data?
Yes, because that's a healthy death per birth %. Are you fine with children suffering.
Like you say, there's a slim chance of mating and them surviving the first winter and if what you say is true than how would there be a overpopulation if they can't even survive the first winter.
You do not seem to understand much about cats or dogs. Even if 90% of strays die after abandonment, that leaves 10%. Those 10% can produce several litters before the next winter. Cats and dogs have very short gestation periods and reach sexual maturity within months.
And like I said I don't give a shit what society thinks because what there doing is horribly wrong. Starvation is part of nature. Living a short dignify life is better than being a pet.
Starvation is natural. Lack of food lowers the population.
The situation with domesticated pets is unnatural. Humans are artificially raising the population by breeding and abandoning animals beyond the carrying capacity. This means they will not die out until people stop abandoning them.
What the fuck, I don't have to give you the god dam name to the operation for there to be another solution. So what if I'm not specific that doesn't mean that there not a different solution.
Claiming there is a different solution doesn't mean it actually exists. I could claim that I own a unicorn, it doesn't mean it exists.
You need to provide the specifics of this other solution in order to show its merit.
Like I said I have a shit ass phone and you can't believe everything you see and I'm not the only one that see's the true. Most humans don't want to share there stuff, so they came up with a reason like overpopulation so strays and wildlife don't enter fear with there human life negatively.
What the fuck I spent 7 years in 4H showing dogs and rabbits, and two years in Africa studying wild dogs. I have plenty of experience with animals. 10% is not a lot because like you said the several kittens would most likely would end up dead there first winter. Lots of strays fall back on there wild insects, being a stray wouldn't be as bad if the ASPCA didn't pick them up all the time.
So really spaying and neutering is not getting to a solution that would end, so maybe they should try something else. So what if domestication is unnatural they would still die of starvation.
Well obviously it does because you said vasectomies and plus it would be more realistically logical to believe that there has to be one different operation.
Tell me personally would you choose vasectomies for your pet or are to selfish to deal with there hormone levels.
Like I said I have a shit ass phone and you can't believe everything you see and I'm not the only one that see's the true. Most humans don't want to share there stuff, so they came up with a reason like overpopulation so strays and wildlife don't enter fear with there human life negatively.
Random conspiracy.
Domesticated animals have been part of society for thousands of years.
What the fuck I spent 7 years in 4H showing dogs and rabbits, and two years in Africa studying wild dogs. I have plenty of experience with animals.
4H is an organization for human development, it is not an animal shelter/rescue operation.
The two years in Africa is probably a lie given the level of knowledge you have displayed so far.
10% is not a lot because like you said the several kittens would most likely would end up dead there first winter.
I used 90% as a hypothetical to illustrate a point. It was not a real number. There is no easy way to estimate how many new-born cats and dogs die. The 20+ million was regarding newly abandoned strays, not those born from surviving strays.
Lots of strays fall back on there wild insects, being a stray wouldn't be as bad if the ASPCA didn't pick them up all the time.
Wild instincts help them survive in the wild, not a concrete jungle.
So really spaying and neutering is not getting to a solution that would end, so maybe they should try something else.
They definitely could try something else. The problem is you have still not come up with this new idea yet.
So what if domestication is unnatural they would still die of starvation.
Many organizations find it inhumane and cruel (as you do for spay/neuter) to force animals into domestication only to abandon them to die in an inhospitable environment.
I have also pointed out many times that they do not just die of starvation.
Well obviously it does because you said vasectomies and plus it would be more realistically logical to believe that there has to be one different operation.
You finally admit your ignorance. You do not actually know if there is another operation, you just believe there is one.
Tell me personally would you choose vasectomies for your pet or are to selfish to deal with there hormone levels.
The domestication of animals for use as pets is already selfish.
Let me use one of your earlier comments: "They would not say that because humans would rather be kicked out of the house than be neutered plus be treated as lesser being, called baby names, be chained..."
I haven't read your whole argument, but I do believe neuter and spaying is unfair for those whom I consider equal to my own specie in terms of rights to live in the world we share. But what is the solution then to prevent their overpopulation? The problem in my country is that many strays get killed cause of traffic, they die in extremes of weather, they die of starvation (the first two reasons are the most prevalent than the third).
Things may happen but doesn't give us the right to alter there sex drive. There are other operations, think what would a human would get if they don't want to have baby's anymore, so the operation is very close to what humans get.
Are you referring to vasectomies and tubal ligations in humans?
Without the modification to behavior from reduced hormone levels, even more pet owners will abandon their pets. Unless if you find a way to stop people from throwing away a pet because it is difficult to control, these techniques will just lead to even higher number of strays.
What the hell do you think I've been advocating for on this topic.
I'm saying hey people stop with your selfishness and choose a different operation and deal with there hormone level.
Cats find shelter in abandoned house tree's and lots of other places and so would dogs, so it wouldn't even a few more pets get kicked out of the house. It would be more morally good if we choose a different operation.
Yes it does, it means you don't have to spay and neuter because there is a different operation.
I'm advocating for people to deal with there hormone levels. I'm not saying spaying and neutering should be illegal but just saying that it is wrong for someone to do it, when they can choose a different operation and it is also wrong if they choose spaying and neutering just because they don't want to deal with there hormone levels.
Yes it does, it means you don't have to spay and neuter because there is a different operation.
This different operation will lead to more stray animals. The purpose of spaying and neutering is to reduce the stray population. You are proposing an alternative that counteracts the purpose of the original procedure.
That would be like saying: "we should stop using water to put out class A fires. The better alternative would be to use gasoline."
So what if there is a little bit more strays on the street. Should the many suffer for the few?
Also I'm not saying you have to choose the operation but I'm saying if you can deal with the hormone levels then please do, so your argument was not accurate to what I was saying, because it does not involve unwilling owners.
So what if there is a little bit more strays on the street. Should the many suffer for the few?
You have it backwards. It would be a lot more strays on the streets which leads to more suffering.
You are missing the critical point. Stray animals suffer in urban areas. Like you said earlier, they can survive naturally, but a city is not a natural habitat for a stray. Your proposed solution would only increase the overall suffering.
The only way for your solution to reduce suffering is if you banned domestication of animals for pets entirely.
How would there be a big increase if only the people that can deal with there hormone levels get the vasectomies. Specially when vasectomies would also bring the so called overpopulation down👎.
I didn't say that but that page you showed me said that. Cats can survive in the city because of back alleys, the lots of cats that survive there. There is more than 20 million children suffering in India, so like you said if people to animals as less than there should be much more help to feeding the starving children.
How would there be a big increase if only the people that can deal with there hormone levels get the vasectomies. Specially when vasectomies would also bring the so called overpopulation down👎.
Management of hormone levels would require constant hormone therapy. It is not a one time shot. This would be an additional expense as opposed to the one time cost of spaying or neutering.
The point you seem to agree with me about is that humans will abandon animals for convenience. A higher cost and regular shots is an inconvenience.
On a side note, I do not think you were originally thinking of vasectomies as the alternative operation. I believe you had no actual alternative in mind.
Here are your comments from earlier: "There's another way to prevent them from having babys and it wouldn't effect there sexual behavior at all and it will not remove any body parts from the animal."
"Things may happen but doesn't give us the right to alter there sex drive. There are other operations"
Hormone therapy would lower sex drives just as normal castration would do. If you want to keep the animal's sex drive, you would have to let it remain in its natural state; no castration or hormones.
So which alternative do you actually want?
It appears that you are just complaining and have proposed a non-existent alternative.
Like I said earlier: "Since you have latched onto two operations that I have presented instead of presenting your own, refer to my comment about why they are a bad idea."
I didn't say that but that page you showed me said that. Cats can survive in the city because of back alleys, the lots of cats that survive there. There is more than 20 million children suffering in India, so like you said if people to animals as less than there should be much more help to feeding the starving children.
People do spend a lot more money, time, and effort to help needy people than needy animals. Only certain activist groups actually put animals before humans.
I am not sure what you did not say. You need to quote or paraphrase that part so I have context.
Well you can see how different they behave after they get fixed, but not before because they don't understand what fixing means. There body language well not show anything because they don't know what is about to happen to them.
