Okay, I see a lot of cut and paste on here to make an argument on both sides. I'm gonna just say it the way I see it. Capitalism originally would of worked if it wasn't for Greed. The CEO's and Share-holders had sold out their own American brother.

Corporation CEO's and Shareholders control;

- your salary

- what you can wear and not wear

- what your appearance should be

- how long you can take lunch or even take a break

- your vacation leave

- if you deserve bonuses/incentives

- your benefits

- annual raises

- credit rating

- the type of car you can afford

- the type of home you can qualify for

- and basically control your fate to loose everything

You’re a modern day slave. So why all the paranoia about Socialism? I think some people are mistaken the word Socialism with State Capitalism.

Capitalism was working until GREED and CORRUPTION began to take over. I can't see it repairing itself unless there is government oversight or socialism to be introduced to spread the wealth.

What a lovely stream of meaningless propaganda. Thank you for your non-contribution to this debate, you may now exit out the way you crawled in.

Umm, sweetheart; those figures come from the CIA (you know, the Communist-Sympathizing United States government's spy agency which is headed by Fidel Castro himself). Cuba's healthcare achievements are independently verified; I am not trusting the government's own accounting alone.

It's obvious that you didn't actually look at the links I gave. If you aren't going to actually take the time to read arguments and look at the facts do me, others, and yourself a favor and stay out of debates until you have the integrity to participate.

Extremes of either Capitalism or Socialism can run into problems. Since the current economic depression was caused by out-of-control Capitalism and "fixing" the problem within a capitalistic framework is going to cause "pain" - such as job losses, along with loss of basic support for food, housing and health insurance - I must side with Socialism which would provide basic support for everyone, even when jobs are scarce.

I personally believe that capitalism got out-of-control because we allowed private interests to concentrate wealth and power into the hands of a few people. This provided them with the means to unduely influence our elected officials. After using their wealth to run advertisements (or even buy the media) they could also unduely influence us and sway the public as a whole.

When wealth is concentrated to the point where those who have it cannot find productive investments, they start gambling. Rather than gamble in casinos, they gamble with the stock market. They invest heavily in one sector of the market - causing prices to rise, and kicking off a bubble in that sector. When the bubble approaches the top, they sell of their assets, causing prices to drop and bursting the bubble. Since the last people into the market are usually middle-class investors with limited time and experience, they don't realize how the bubble was created (or that there even is a bubble). They also lack the time and expertise to properly evaluate the market so as to leave with a minimum of loss. Instead, they are the ones who lose their hard-earned wealth to those from whom they bought their investments. This is nothing more than fraud.

This is what you said:

"lets say all of the people decided to ban the right to vote, decided to ban the right to free speech, do you still think it's okay because the majority of people decided it is? do you just live with it?"

I was responding to that specifically. The issue isn't that I would just let it happen, there is nothing I could do in the case of unanimous or virtually unanimous decision. The only course of action would be to try and convince people that it is or was a bad idea and then do something.

If a simple majority votes away voting rights for itself and the rest of a population we are still in rather simple territory: as I said before, if a democracy ends democracy then it is no longer anti-democratic to fight against that society or government.

Equality is one of the most important values I hold; of course a tyranny of the majority is still a tyranny and it should be fought. Even if a democracy in place; democracy is only right in so far as it is an equal democracy, a democracy in which everyone has the same rights.

An oppressed minority has the following options: secede, passively fight for equal rights, or aggressively/violently fight for equal rights.

"and i chose to walk into wal-mart... wal-mart didn't force me to do shit."

Ya know what; if you don't like the policies of this government you are free to move to another one. That kind of logic goes both ways. Noone is forcing you to stay in this country; if you don't like our policies you can leave.

Is that right? No. What you are saying is just as silly.

"1. if one man rules all and tells everyone what to do, it doesn't matter how he got the power, it matters what he's doing now. we're restricted from any freedom, and it's more natural to revolt. you have to stop seeing things as black and white."

"you have to stop seeing things as black and white."

Let me repeat this:

"you have to stop seeing things as black and white."

Vs.

"it's either this or we give the government control over everything"

"the true question is, which is do you find more unfair? Authoritarian power or Corporate growth?"

You're killing me here, Pyg, you really are. I could copy-paste every argument you've made as a testament to your sudden turn-around in ideological philosophy.

Anyways, the point of what I was trying to say is that your system always leads to that revolution. It usually isn't one man taking all of the power through property; it is usually a small group of men (maybe women, in this day and age) taking power; a class of people; the wealthy.

When you walk into a Target, or a Wal-Mart, or a Best Buy, or the factory where you work who makes the rules? Especially if there is no Federal Government, no state government, no city government with rules regarding private property, business practices..etc. They become kings of what they own automatically; your say goes from a single vote to literally no say at all.

"2. it's not just ban drugs, it's all of those things. it's complete control over the lives of individuals. really, the turning point would have to be the banning of guns (as the NRA believes) because that is really our only chance of revolting. the people ban things and then unban them left and right, but that doesn't make it right for them to do so. but that is why wars are fought, for conflicting ideals (revolutionary war would be best example). lets say all of the people decided to ban the right to vote, decided to ban the right to free speech, do you still think it's okay because the majority of people decided it is? do you just live with it?

maybe it's just because "freedom" itself means more to me than it does to others."

When a majority votes away Democracy the system is no longer Democratic; therefor it is no longer a matter of competing versions of freedom. If that actually happened I would sort of be at a loss; if all of the people actually gave up their right to vote willingly I wouldn't have any basis to rise up (neither would you); noone would stand with either of us in the defense of the vote.

That's akin to a unanimous decision to commit suicide; I wouldn't be for it but using violence to stop it would be kind of pointless.

My job is to convince, not to kill; there is no point in killing in a democracy. Outside of one we must fight for democracy and representation (violently in defense, not in offense); if noone else on earth (or a small minority) is for it; then we can either try to convince people, secede, or take a snooze I suppose.

"maybe it's just because "freedom" itself means more to me than it does to others."

I think you don't know what freedom means, you've proven that. You have a version of freedom, your belief, and you don't believe there is any other valid version of freedom otherwise. You are willing to kill people because they ban: guns, drugs, alcohol, and other pointless things even if, say, they provided free healthcare, a democratic system of government, roads, bridges, good jobs, press freedom.....but if they ban weaponry and mental poisons you are willing to blast the crap out of men and women who aren't actually being violent towards you.

I think you need to broaden your scope of freedom, and you need to cease being a hypocrite and see things in shades of grey, not black and white.

"i think it's more about choice. and yes, i am a "tough shit" type of guy. i don't see why we should be deciding who deserves more than the other. why not let the market decide (which is us technically)."

That's a pretty big contradiction. You've basically admitted that both the "market" and government decisions are people deciding what to do with other people. Your argument falls flat on its face at this point.

"when a person rules everyone and they can't be free within that country because of this individual, it's not just because they're rich and powerful, it's because they're a dictator. violent revolution against a dictator isn't left or right, it's just people saying "we're not gonna take it"."

A dictator? I am confused, this person acquired this power completely legally. They did it without violence; they just did it by buying and selling property; the basis of your system. Why is it okay to kill them for exercising their basic right to own and run their property?

Anyways, according to your definition of what a dictator is and following the system of economics you desire you end up fighting against, possibly violently, the people who became successful because of their talent and ability to achieve within the system you yourself endorse.

When you propose methods of keeping this from happening they end up following the beliefs of Karl Marx himself, as well as other classical and modern Socialists, Communists, an Anarcho-Communists.

"take away guns

ban cigs, drugs, alcohol, porn, etc.

restrict the market and redistribute wealth

...I may actually consider it."

And if the majority of people choose to vote for these measures, will you kill all of them as well? I mean, with respect to the banning of drugs thing you have quite a large number of people on your "execution consideration list" seeing as both parties are still pretty solid on banning narcotics and a majority of the population wants to keep that ban in place.

And you call me authoritarian. You do realize that killing people because they institute policies you don't agree with; especially if these policies are voted for or supported by the majority population, is a text-book definition of authoritarianism. It doesn't matter if you are doing it "for freedom", murdering people because they have a different definition of freedom is certainly authoritarian.

""a violent revolution can also be considered anarchist, since, that is what results from a violent revolution usually. actually, under communist rule, that is the perfect time to violently revolt."

So, if I get voted into power; say I become mayor of your city, you think it's okay to execute me? Hmmm..odd. Bet lets put aside your illogical hatred for Communists and the Communist ideology.

Violent revolutions are not particular to Communism, of course. However, violent revolutions against overly-powerful businessmen or wealthy classes is certainly either Communism or Left-Anarchism. We are close cousins and technically fight for the same ultimate goal; we have different means to achieve this end of course.

"the thing about communism though is that the government decides what is done with these patches of land. they tell the people what to do. i'm referring to make it that no one is told what to do."

That isn't true; that is one version of Socialism, not even Communism. Communism is the end result of Socialism, a stateless egalitarian society where freedom is maximized utterly.

The whole theory of Socialism, the whole reason we strive for Communism, is to arrive at a society where noone is told what to do by a government or by the wealthy. We believe, though, that government can be a tool (though not the most important, the only, or an essential tool) to arrive at this society of perfect freedom and equality.

"i see that you have a point on the wealthy have the most say (in a warped, but true way), because they create things that the people use. tv for instance. but the thing is, they created it, and the people have decided to use the media as their reference. i just don't believe that restrictions should be made on the market like that."

The wealthy don't create anything, especially by themselves. Tell me, without everyone else in our society, our world, where would Bill Gates be? Where would he have gotten the education that would teach him how to make software? How would he be able to concentrate on education if there aren't farmers making food for him to eat? What about pencil makers? What about all of the dead millions who researched and developed the knowledge that allowed him to even begin to come up with these ideas?

The wealthy are not wealthy because of what they themselves provide, they are only wealthy through their intelligence, their ideas, and their ability to utilize others, to utilize society and all of human history, to their advantage. Now, of course, this only applies to business leaders and entrepreneurs, not those who became wealthy by marriage, inheritance, or dumb-luck.

Tvs took the effort and brilliance of billions of people stretching across the whole globe and human history to come into existence. Somehow, though, we allow certain individuals to take all of this and set themselves way above the rest of us.

They contribute to society, I will admit that, but they are a fraction of the effort.

"but it once again ends in you wanting everyone to be set into equal roles where no one has a disadvantage, and i want people to have different things to work for and look forward to. this, of course, leading to some who become wealthy and others who become homeless."

People can have various goals, various talents, various desires; they can do whatever it is they want. But noone has the right to own another person, to have unequal power over others, and noone should starve because those with the power don't deem them worthy to have food.

You must see people as useful and useless in order to believe that it is right to have some super-wealthy and some homeless. I, however, see that there are many ways to make valuable contributions to society, to humanity, and that we should focus our efforts in using our own abilities and ideas to enrich everyone around us, as well as ourselves.

I don't care if there are minor differences, some people having a few more lamps than others, one person owning a car and another owning two. I believe there is a certain proportional limit to the individual differences in productivity and contribution.

Bill Gates certainly didn't contribute several billions dollars to society, to the world; he had the help of billions of people in order to do what he did. Take them away and he wouldn't have made any meaningful contribution at all.