It isn't about a choice of who has to prove the claim. I can show you various interrogation experts who say that torture doesn't work, but that doesn't prove it does not work. The only way to prove it doesn't work is a complete lack of evidence that torture led to no actionable intelligence despite all of the people tortured.

Bush and company should not be prosecuted for torture. A little water boarding never hurt anybody. Getting your head cut off with a rusty pocket knife, however, is quite a different story.

If you try Bush for using aggressive interrogation techniques then Truman should have been tried for dropping the Atomic Bomb or Lyndon Johnson for bombing North Vietnam.

Please cite the terrorist attacks that it stopped. Please cite the valid information we got from water boarding.

Don't even bother using the usual GOP sound bite of "it prevented the LA towers attack." This does not fit the time line. Some people would have you believe that the water boarding of Khalid Sheikh Muhammad led to the discovery of the plot, but that doesn't hold up the facts. The CIA found out about the attack that really wasn't even planned out or likely to be planned out before Khalid Sheikh Muhammad was ever interrogated.

Your argument is so ridiculous. Because there are some people who do worse things than water boarding, it is okay to water board. Do you even realize how illogical and insane that is?

No evidence to back it up? yeah I do, and I got them all from the book Outrage by Dick Morris and Eileen McGann, why dont you read it if your so concerned about me not having evidence to back up those claims. Chapter 5, page 175-196. By the way, both of them are New York Times Bestselling authors.

I say no strictly because something worse than waterboarding some terrorists could've happened (like another couple thousand innocent people dying). Of course, we all have no sincere proof what was next on the terrorists agenda (I think), but we know they were thinking of doing something else and we, successfully, stopped them... without murdering them. And they murdered many Americans to stop us from ... what? (No, really, I'm still unclear on the 9/11 crap). But anyway, you'd have to have a lot of balls to feel any sympathy for someone suffering psychological problems from waterboarding when it "probably" saved this countries ass. At least we didn't lower ourselves completely to Iraq's level and do the freaky shit they do.

But the CIA and the US military has tested waterboarding on our own troops, and airman, the medical core even tested it.

If Bush gets prosecuted, that (female dog) Nancy Pelosi should be prosecuted as well, SHE KNEW. O yeah, she first claimed that ''I had no knowledge, repeat, I had to knowledge of waterboarding.'' Then next thing you know it shes saying ''Waterboarding was discussed, but they said they werent going to use it.'' ''I did not have sex with that women.'' Sound fimiliar? She sounds exactly like Bill Clinton did.

If it wasnt for the Patriot Act, warrantless NSA wiretapping and waterboarding, terrorist would have cut the cables holding the Brooklyn Bridge aloft and the entire span would have plunged into the East River, killing tens of thousands. They would have attacked the New York City subway system, just as they did the London Metro; they would have blown up the Herald Square stop-where Macy's and the heart of New York's shopping area is located. They would have destroyed Chicago's Sears Tower, as attractive a target as the World Trade Center. They would have obliterated the United States embassy in Paris, at the heart of the beautiful Place de la Concorde-right next to the spot where the guillotines reigned during the French Revolution. They would have blown up an Ohio shopping mall near Columbus. They would have destroyed the Toronto stock exchange and a number of police headquarters building there. They would have succeeded in mounting a strike called Operation Crevice, leveling important buildings throughout the city of London, England. They would have blown up New York City's tunnels. A Chicago terrorist would have exploded a dirty bomb, spreading radioactivity over a large area of the United States. They would have attacked cargo ships taking oil from the Straits of Hormuz, through which 40 perecent of the world's oil travels. Of course none of these plots were executed; many of them-including the final three list here-were thwarted just in times. Due to the Patriot Act, waterboarding and warrantless NSA wiretapes, Bush saves America lives, but of course you liberals hate America and all want to join the Taliban, just like that one CA guy.

If a terrorist has information that could save thousands ...I would torture the crap out of him.....

so, by your definition of torture, having to listen to Taylor Swift would be torture for me, correct?

or maybe, having to go to school would be torture for some children.

there's a reason why we don't just say "agony or pain". it's because it's too broad. so we say it has to cause PERMANENT damage. which water boarding does not. it's actually less than what they do to Navy Seals in training.

If they prosecuted them then all fututre presidents would almost be "afraid" to do anything different without going to prision. It would completely change the way the presidents run.

Whatever Bush and his cronies did can't be even a SMALL FRACTION of what the terrorists all over the world have done to us, and all the other countries out there who are also fighting terrorism (9/11!). These guys deserve it!

Look, I know that Bush and his buddies did some crazy wacky things when they were in office, but I don't think they maliciously tortured any innocent people physically. I hate them too, but they should be prosecuted for something else.

That's easy. Come over and I'll extract some information from you. You'll see how good it works ;)

Then find proof that someone who was tortured gave up useful information.

Sure it is. it's the war on terror. Just because it isn't a traditional war doesn't mean it isn't a war. Besides, our values mean what we say they mean at a specific point in time based on what benefits us more at that time ;)

This isn't a war. You can't call something a war just because guns are involved. And call it high ground or moral high ground it doesn't matter. If we ignore our values when it gets difficult they mean nothing.

OK, but torture also works sometimes and yields results. Or are you saying that torture never works? If you're saying that torture never works, then I want to see your sources.

No I said pursausive techniques were successful. That is not torture. One thing they do is befriend the suspect to try and gain their trust. That works, torture doesn't.

i'm not saying let the government use it on American citizens. i never said that. i'm against that in total.

but, at a time of war, it should be used on enemy combatants if they fit the same standards as the captured terrorists (who before the releasing of the memos actually taught their followers to give up information when they can no longer stand the interrogation methods). like i said, in War we drop bombs onto areas where terrorist leaders are. i don't think water boarding captured enemy combatants (and these are only during the ticking time bomb scenario may i remind you) is really crossing the line. War is Hell. And, water boarding is the least of the enemy's problem. I think they should be more worried about our missiles coming straight for their bases. or maybe a squadron of US Navy SEALS ready to blow their head off at any second.

Japanese also stuck bamboo sticks under fingernails and castrated young soldiers.

it wasn't JUST for water boarding.

and police have no right to water board Americans because Americans are protected far more than terrorists... who kill Americans.

i mean, do police have a right to assassinate gang leaders? no. but soldiers have the right to assassinate al-Qaeda leaders, and all people with him at the time.

i think you're forgetting about the most important issue right now. we're at war. this isn't some fuckin' game where we should play by strict rules. if we fuck around like that, more lives are destroyed.

OK, so here's what you're saying, the CIA has never gotten any useful information out of water boarding and you know that for a fact. The CIA must water board because they get a kick out of it. I mean, why use something that doesn't yield results. Or are you saying that the CIA water boarded a specific guy and did not get the information about the specific LA towers attack?

Please cite the data that says that water boarding has never yielded any results.

No, not really. I don't realize how illogical and insane that is because we are out to win a war against a group of people that will stop at nothing to see us destroyed. Why should we fight fair when they are not fighting fair.

Here's your argument. If someone breaks into your house and kills one of your children and escapes but you capture someone you know is affiliated with the killer and the killer has sworn to come back and kill your other child, you would not water board the guy to try and figure out where the killer is. I mean, that's very noble of you and all but do you realize how illogical and insane that is?

torture is defined as causing permanent physical or mental damage to an individual.

Water boarding, under the restrictions that were placed, does not and did not cause any permanent physical or mental damage. it is considered temporary discomfort for terrorists that saved thousands of Americans lives.

So no, don't prosecute for torture. it wouldn't make sense.

Know what's worse than getting stabbed in the eye with a fork?

The holocaust. [Stabs you in the eye with a fork]

if we resorted to the same tactics that THEY used then we would be beheading them or cutting them into pieces, slowly. water boarding is nothing compared to what they do, not only to our soldiers, but to their own people.

water boarding, in the way that the CIA and military has been trained to do it, is only temporary extreme discomfort.

the Geneva Conventions. so many things wrong with that (and i did NOT down vote you since down voting is childish).

1. it applies to Uniformed personnel and says nothing about terrorists.

2. is filled with bullshit rules. soldiers aren't even allowed to intimidate the enemy. a soldier was recently thrown out because he fired his weapon into the ground in order to scare one of the captured terrorists (who had info on an attack on a Unit). society is supposed to stand up to things that they know are wrong, so why are people doing just the opposite and supporting the Geneva Convention?

water boarding does not cause permanent physical or mental harm like the other things you described.

if water boarding does not do what the definition of torture is... how the hell is it torture?

According the CIA memos that Obama released, coerce interrogation was an excellent way to get information:

besides the end result of them receiving info on and preventing the Second Wave, terrorists were actually taught that once they could no longer handle the interrogation to give up the information. that they have done enough for Allah. unfortunately, with the release of that information, the terrorists know specifically on our methods

also, torture is defined as causing permanent physical or mental harm on an individual. water boarding did not do this. in fact, it was very strictly done so that there wasn't a chance of a mess up.

and define human rights and who gets them? aren't we at war. what, we can kill terrorists but we can't water board them? that's one fucked up view on human rights, dude.