God caused the big bang silly

There are some pretty big logical flaws here.

"Everything that begins to exist must have a cause for its existence."

This is an assumption. We know that there was a singularity, and a large explosion occurred which caused the rapid expansion of the universe out of this singularity. The singularity, however, could have existed forever. It could even have been a previous universe going through it's big bang/big crunch. Your argument unfortunately breaks down at this point, as your premises are not shown to be true.

"it must be immaterial because it existed in the absence of all matter"

Assumption. We don't know what existed before the universe, or indeed if there even was a before. Remember that time is possibly only a property of this universe, so anything outside of the bounds of this universe is purely assumption.

"it must be timeless because it existed in the absence of time."

Assumption. As I stated above, we can't make any assumptions of time outside of the bounds of the universe.

"it must be personal because it intended to create the universe."

Ouch! Not only is this a huge assumption, but this one isn't even based on any current knowledge. Quite sneaky as you attempted to throw this line in between three other possibly valid (though, remember, they are all just assumptions) statements. Please show me how you can deduce that there was intention to create the universe. Just because it is here doesn't mean that there was any intention for it to be here. Can you back this statement up?

"it must be enormously powerful because it had the power to create the entire universe"

Assumption, though this one is highly likely. Within the bounds of the universe, I'd have to agree with you. The first law of thermodynamics also agrees with you. But remember, we're talking possibly about pre-universe here. Or, possibly, about a universe that has always existed. Maybe the power that is used to create the new universe is simply the power emitted by the big crunch of a previous universe?

"Some have suggested that the God hypothesis is false because God must have been caused, but this is simply not true."

I can assure you that it is. What you've done here is assumed that the universe could never have always existed and that god could have. These are simply assumptions. If you're willing to accept that god has always existed, why are you not willing to accept that the universe has always existed? The fact that the state of our current universe came from an explosion within a singularity is not important. We have no current understanding, evidence, etc, of anything that occurred beforehand; therefore the universe always existing is just as likely as god always existing. If you aren't willing to accept an ever-existing universe, then I am afraid that I am unable to accept an ever-existing god.

"Those who deny that God created the universe are left to explain how something came from absolutely nothing."

If you can show me that the universe absolutely hasn't always existed, perhaps; but you can't. Regardless, the jump from "something had to exist previously" to "well, it had to be an intelligent personal god then" is too far a jump. It's all just assumptions, which you're trying to back up with logic. The problem is that your logic just doesn't hold up under scrutiny.

It's amazing what people will accept with god ("oh, god, yeah, he's always existed"), but will refuse to accept with the universe.

Firstly, it's not really an argument. The Big Bang theory is pretty much the definitive explanation for the beginning of the universe. What caused the explosion is yet unknown, but to simply say "it was god" without any evidence to back that up is foolish.

Now then, let's get onto the point about the universe being so complex, impossible, and other such unsubstantiated claims. I'm sorry that I have to keep bringing this up, but obviously everyone and their mother missed the science class that explained the second law of thermodynamics.

The second law of thermodynamics states that the entropy of an isolated system which is not in equilibrium will tend to increase over time, approaching a maximum value at equilibrium. Order (the perceived complexity of the universe you speak of) is most likely to occur in a closed system which is far from equilibrium. When a closed system is in the equilibrium state, its entropy has reached a maximum value. The entropy of the closed system cannot increase further. Hence, there is no room to compensate for the entropy decrease of a local system within the closed system unless it is accompanied by an entropy increase in a neighboring local system. By contrast, if a closed system is far from equilibrium, its entropy will increase dramatically, which can compensate for a substantial entropy decrease of a local system. Thus, ordered structures are more likely to be created from a non-equilibrium state than an equilibrium state. The Big Bang theory backs up this view of the world. The Big Bang creates an initial universe which contains an enormously high energy density and is extremely far from equilibrium. In order to reach an equilibrium state, the universe expanded rapidly, resulting in dramatic increase in entropy. This compensate perfectly for the entropy decrease due to the formation of ordered structures such as galaxies, stars, planets, life on Earth, etc.

Or, you know, it could just be god?

And I won't even begin to get into your final point about the bible's reliability.

"I cannot believe the Big Bang theory created all we have."

Not directly, no. The Big Bang was just the initial event that set up the circumstances under which further complexity could develop.

Why is that so hard to believe? If I may speculate, I believe that your (and other religious people's) difficulty in accepting this idea stems from the religious indoctrination beaten into your head since childhood. You have an emotional attachment to Christianity that prevents you from evaluating things clearly.

"In the end it doesn't really matter who or what created any of it."

I agree with you to an extent there. But problems come up when Christians (and other religious people) do stuff like blocking stem cell research or preventing evolution from being taught in schools. If people would accept that belief in God is irrational, these problems would go away.

While I like your argument much more than the other flaming pieces of ignorance on this side of the debate, I still see some serious flaws.

You ask how the universe could have begun without God.

One possible explanation is that the universe has simply always existed. Your assumption that "The universe began" is not necessarily true.

Second, the laws of physics do not necessarily apply outside of our universe. Therefore it's entirely possible that something can indeed come from "nothing." Here "nothing" could mean "void" or "stuff beyond our universe about which it's impossible to know anything." So your assumption that "Everything... must have a cause" is also not necessarily true.

With these flawed assumptions, the rest of your argument has no foundation.

"-[the cause of the Big Bang] must be personal because it intended to create the universe."

This conclusion is definitely flawed. The cause of the Big Bang could very well have been accidental.

"But what of the space around the tiny dense ball?"

The universe is space and time. All that is the universe was contained within the singularity (according to the theory). So there was no space surrounding the ball, because the ball WAS space. And remember that the big bang theory was postulated according to the evidence observed, thus all it explains is that the universe was at one time compressed in this manner - it does not explain directly what was "outside" the singularity.

Here's a short video detailing the rudiments of the big bang theory for quick reference: http://www.thoughttheater.com/2008/07/evidence_for_the_big_bang_theory_in_10_minutes.php

"How can you have time and space surrounding the tiny dense ball if the origin for time and space is within the tiny dense ball?"

No one ever claimed you could.

"Where can you find any room to explode?"

Contrary to its name, the big bang theory does not assume there was an explosion, merely an expansion of the universe. We don't know what is beyond the universe, but the universe is finite, therefore whatever void surrounded the universe was the "room" for it to expand in.

"Something has to pre-exist time and space to create it."

Not necessarily; this is a commonly-held assumption that is not supported by any scientific evidence whatsoever. The greatest mind-twister of this is that singularities defy conventional physics (remember there are singularities today, existing at the center of black holes), therefore any number of possibilities exist as to what caused the singularity to appear (or if it has always existed) and what caused it to expand. So whatever force caused it to expand is beyond our current comprehension - but science is ever evolving. And even if we do discover evidence of an unknown force propelling the expansion, or even the creation, calling it God and ceasing all attempts to discover the natural cause is illogical, because then we'd just be filling in the blanks with an equally unexplainable phenomenon, rather than working to find the true, natural solution. We may never find the answer, but we can at least be intellectually honest with ourselves in saying, "I don't know, let's find out."

Also, the big bang theory and god are not mutually exclusive; you can believe the big bang theory and also believe that a god created the singularity - deism is a logical enough stance to have. However, you would have to concede that you do not know the mechanism this "god" used to create the singularity, putting yourself in the same position as those who believe the big bang theory but don't know what made the singularity. It just seems more concise to not bring metaphysics into the equation.

"I simply ask you to think about time and space creation without getting caught in an infinite logical loop."

It's impossible to avoid the infinite when speaking about the origins of existence. Even with the idea of god creating the universe, you can't avoid implying eternity in some aspect or another.

Further reading on the subject:

http://burro.astr.cwru.edu/stu/cosmos_bigbang.html

http://www.thekeyboard.org.uk/The%20Big%20Bang%20Theory.htm

/facepalm withdrawn

This may never be answered for a certainty but I would think that osmethign big happend long ago. Why create al lthese palnets for nothing and stras for nothing is there is nothing there? one reason I tihnk we aren't alone out there.

No kidding. That's what I was saying.

/reverse facepalm

More the actual event than the theory, but yeah, the Big Bang. The science is pretty solid. Everything fits to around 1/100 of a second before the explosion, it gets a bit scetchy before that though, so who knows. Maybe I'm the asshole and it's God's fault and I'm going to hell. Oh well fuck it, I'm sticking to my guns. Hear that God!