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God being omnibenevolent has nothing to do with his existence. What defines his existence would be the mere fact that I believe in him. At the end of the day, whether or not he is omnibenevolent, if I believer in him he exists to me. I would worship anyone if I damn well pleased. I have free will sir. All the Christians in the world have free will so no matter what you say, they're going to use their imagination and believe in god. God exists to them. If you can debate that argument then you will have won this debate. So tell me, does god exist to them or not? Because if he exists to them, he exists.
The bible didn't invent Christianity. How the hell does a book come before the religion? Christianity came first, and then the book was written ON Christianity. Christianity back then that is. I am not invalidating Christianity, I am simply saying that Christianity today is not the same as it was back then, therefore you can't use the bible as an argument. We are talking about two different Christianities, cause like I said, do you see children being stoned today?.....Not at all sir. Two different Christianities.
And yes, the world can own its own unicorn. Unicorns won't be real unless science permits, but at the very least unicorns can exist in our heads. That is the imagination. Which is the one thing you are to close minded to grasp.
The bible didn't create the religion, man created the religion. A religion isn't anything more than a belief and beliefs stem from the imagination. That's all.
Verses in the bible are only viable to the people who believe in the Christian god. They aren’t viable to you which is why I say you can’t use the bible for your argument. It’s THEIR faith. If they choose to believe in him than that’s THEIR choice.
Oh and this debate will never be about agnostics rather than a flawed christianity. You are proving exactly what I said earlier. Your arguments are tackling an entirely other debate than what we are talking about. This debate is NOT, and I repeat, NOT about the religion of christianity and the flaws that may come with it. This debate, as I have stated time and time again is only, ONLY about the existence of the christian god. I have proven his existence. A religion is nothing more than a belief. Everyone one has beliefs. Everyone makes something that is nothing, exist to them. Right and wrong, or justice, is an example of something that is nothing, pushed into existence with the power of the imagination. If you don't accept something like a belief, somethingyou can't see, touch or hear, just because you can't see touch or hear it, then you might as well not believe in everything else that is not in reality. You might as well not believe in love. I know for a fact you can't touch love, but is love real? Yes, because we make it real. But if you don't see that, I dare you to go and tell all of your loved one's that you don't believe in things like love. Things that you don't see don't exist to you. If that is the way you think then you are empty sir. Nothing.
And if you chose not to believe in him you will not go to hell for eternity. That's a part of the christian faith, a christian faith in which you don't believe in, it is not viable to you so you cannot use it in this argument. If you don't believe in it, it does not exist to you, and if doesn't exist to you, then how the hell are you gonna talk about it? How do you know what you're saying if it doesn't exist to you. Your argument is useless.
Unicorns, fairies, and the fact that obama is a rainbow in disguise can be any number. At the end of the day they're all positive. To where, you trying not to make those thoughts exist, equal nothing. Life is about the pursuit of happiness and you find true happiness in being yourself. The imagination allows us to be ourselves. It is the passport that manifests our soul into the real world. So the imagination allows us to be happy. These people, christians and all, people of every religion are simply using their imaginations to be happy, as everyone does, and who the hell are you to say that their beliefs aren't real? It's a damn belief for christ's sake. No one needs anything for a belief, they simply need to want it, and there it is, something to make them happy. I imagine that these people are much happier than you are as they find happiness by themselves when it comes to religion. But you? You find happiness in attacking other people's religions, their beliefs. That is sad sir...They're doing nothing wrong by being happy...
And at the end of the day, this helps us because the imagination allows us to be happy. Without it, we wouldn't be alive. Physically we'd be alive, but we wouldn't FEEL alive. Everybody dies, but not everybody lives. read between those lines sir.
In conclusing, I am not arguing that god is real. I'm not a christian remember? I said that in the description of this debate. But I am arguing the existence of the chrisitan god. He at least exists sir. That's all I needed for this debate, that's why I debated with the power of the imagination. God's existence is proven with the imagination, which makes anything that is nothing exist. You have lost. Tell Srom how it feels.
I am open minded. You're the close minded one.
Let us analyze your sentence. You said, "If god is said to be omnibenevolent, but has committed an act of evil, he has contridicted himself. Therefor he does not exist"
I understand your way of think. But pay attention to what you're saying because you don't even know what you're saying.
You said, "If god is SAID to be omnibenevolent..."
If he is SAID to be omnibenevolent, that means someone ELSE said he was omnibenevolent and if someone ELSE said he was omnibenevolent, how in the hell can he contradict HIMSELF. He does not contradict his own existence, MAN contradicts his existence through the bible because the bible, as you stated, was written by man with no influence of anything other than man.
I understand that it is a point that god cannot exist if he commits evil. But the problem of evil doesn't exist in reality. The same way you are arguing that god does not exist, I can argue that evil doesn't exist. Because in reality, evil does not exist. Evil exists in your head and that is all. The only thing that makes stoning evil is because you THINK its evil. If you didn't think it was evil then it wouldn't be, correct? And if the bible is real and all stories hold true, who's to say that back then, back when the bible was written, who's to say that the people of those days viewed stoning as evil. I know for a fact that things that aren't okay now, used to be okay then. That's how history works. Look at slavery, slavery existed, but now there are so many people who view it as a type of evil that it is no longer allowed, but at some point, people didn't think of it as evil, so it existed. Do you see little children being stoned today?......I'm waiting....I don't think so, because we see it as evil today, but back then, it happened all the time. So maybe he did it, if he did anything because I believe he's indifferent, because to the people back then it was okay. You are merely referencing from a primary source from to many years ago. You have different views than those people who lived so long ago so of course you're going to object and dispute. The WORLD has different views than those people. The world has changed. But the people's faiths still remain. God is the embodiment of morality for the people of that time. This is OUR time, not the time of the people in the bible, so using the bible to argue is useless. Because morals change as people change. As the world change. He is infinitly moral because his morals change with the time, they change with ours. At all times, he is whatever you view him as. Why? because like I said, he exists simply because people make him exist. No one ever said he was real. No one ever said they could feel him like the rocks beneath my feet. All people ever said is that he exists, and its true because he exists to them. This debate isn't even about if he's real. It's about his existence. Open you mind. Realize what makes a belief a belief. Realize that if you make something exist that isn't already in reality, then it exists. Not to me, not my dog, but to you. Derp.
This argument has always been about imagination. Everything that has nothing to do with reality is imagination. Think about this...What makes a rock a rock? Well a rock is a rock. But the WORD "rock" was created by man and the only reason why it continues to exist is because of a common acceptance of the WORD. But that WORD came from a man's IMAGINATION. That man could have just as easily named a rock, cheese. He could've said whatever. If he had named that rock cheese, than we would call rocks cheese today. And cheese rocks. And the moon would be made of cheese, just that easily. All because of the power of the imagination. When you debate, you debate because you have a different set of beliefs than your opponent, but your beliefs stem from you imagination, so at all times, all of our viewpoints and thoughts on things come from our imagination. It has always been just that, you have simply failed to realize, thus proving your close mindedness. There is not excuse. At the root of it all is everything and nothing. Reality and Imagination. Life is made up of those two. You can't have one without the other.
Just because god doesn't exist to you does not mean god doesn't exist. All it takes is for one person to make him exist. There only needs to be one light to find the way. It's a positive thought to believe in something and to not believe in something equals nothing. Just as light is something positive, and dark is nothing. Dark is merely the absence of light. But light and dark are not equals, wherever light choices to be, dark must give way. Light brightens but dark doesn't darken. So when someone believes in something, you can't take that away by not believing in it. Your choice to not believe in something equals nothing. If one person says god exists to them, god exists. Why do you think god is light? Because darkness, or someone not believing in him can't take him away. He will always be there if people choose to allow him the stay.
This is not twisted logic or flawed thinking. The universe is made up of everything and nothing. That's all.
Like I said, god being omnibenevolent has nothing to do with his existence. It does not define his existence. Please show me when and where god specifically said he was omnibenevolent. If you point to the bible please note that the bible was written by human beings, just because those humans believed god was omnibenevolent, omniscient, and omnipotent, does not mean he was all of the above.
Also, there is no flaw in my logic, of course it doesn't just go for the christian god, it goes for everything that isn't already here. Love, Hate, right and wrong, evil, good, dark, all the words in all of the languages, everything that is nothing can be made real with the power of the imagination. Religion is a faith. You simply have to believe and it becomes real to you. Therefor it exists.
And to justify the stoning, like I previously stated, the bible was written by human beings who thought they knew god. If I had a father who never spoke to me and I only heard things about him and knew that he was always watching me, I'd seek his approval. And in seeking his approval I'd have to assume what he'd want me to do and how he'd want me to act. Maybe they got it wrong sometimes. But I know for a fact that god never came down while they were writing and wrote down, "CHILDREN SHALL BE STONED TO DEATH FOR DEFIENCE". That much I know.
Also, you can not say god doesn't exist to you and therefor god doesn't exist. All you can say is that god doesn't exist to you because as long as one person believes in god, god exists. As long as something is out there, it's out there. When you say god doesn't exist, that equals zero. But when someone says he does exist, that equals 1. The universe is made up of everything and nothing. Your thought would equal nothing wheras their thought would equal everything meaning yours doesnt phase the end result.
Light can brighten, dark doesn't darken sir. It's your negative thought that doesn't matter, but their positive one that does.
And if you said that about unicorns, that doesn't mean unicorns are real. It means unicorns exist. Not that they're real, they merely exist because they exist to you. If you're real, you exist, but if you exist it doesn't always mean you're real. Don't get that confused.
My argument was not inadequate, that would be the 100% chance of fulfilling the conditions of my argument, but still, at this very moment, everyone has the free will to end the human race, it is possible at all times, I think that's very adequate.
And you simply have no balls because you know my argument is adequate and you have yet to man up and be the christian you said you would be.
Debate is decided on anything. The imagination is infinite. The imagination is the passport that allows us to manifest our soul into the real world. Our soul being what makes us who we are. Who we are being all of our beliefs and our veiwpoints on everything. Without the imagination, things like love and right or wrong wouldn't exist because it wouldn't exist to us. Can you imagine that? A world without beliefs. We wouldn't even be able to debate lol.
Oh and the thought isn't ludicrous. Think about it, everything you know, isn't really real but you make it real. So yes, one can imagine any number of things into existence this way. For example, what is a rock? Well a rock is a rock, but the word "rock" is made up by humans. Purely with the use of their imagination. You only know a rock is a "rock" because of someone's imagination. The same holds true for everything else. But see, isn't the moon made up of rock? What if the guy who named rocks "rocks", decided to name rocks cheese? Well then the moon is made of cheese, because he said so. lol. All you have to understand is that a rock is not a rock unless you make it a rock, it's cheese for me. I choose the power of the imagination. I can imagine any number of things into existence and you can do the same. Without even noticing it, you already have. :p
Oh but I admire your use of words. I've learned quite a bit of vocabulary debating with you.
Due to a large chain of memories, it seems we have gotten off of the initial topic. You see, I could keep debating you on everything you have to say, but your arguments no longer mean anything.
I could've sworn you said, and I quote, "This is all I need to believe in God...
I've decided I've been too harsh on theists. So, I'm willing to convert to Christianity, if this question can be answered. If it is, I will begin to argue for theism in debates, and for all intents and purposes, be Christian. The question is...
Why does God care if I masturbate?
If answered adequately, I will accept Christ as my saviour.
I answered your question adequately. You even agreed with my argument. So you should have become a christian 24 days ago when I stopped posting on this debate.
Or are you not a man of your word? I guess that high horse of yours is very uncomfortable because you have no balls whatsoever. It's true that theists who are backed into a corner do nothig but spit verses from the bible, but they don't need to prove anything to you.
At the end of the day, if I'm a christian, god exists to me and no one can take that from me because that's my belief. So god exists simply because people make him exist to them. And the good thing about beliefs is the fact that you don't need anything to support it, you simply believe in something because you want to. It's the power of the imagination.
So when you say to someone, God does not exist, what you mean to say to them is that, God does not exist to you, because god exists to them. And because god exists to them, god exists...period...
And what I've learned of atheists is that they are merely stubborn ogres who refuse to believe in anything. I would much rather be someone who is happy and full of beliefs than someone who spends my time doubting other people and their way of life.
Have fun looking down on yourself Chuck.
I have not taken a self contradictory position. Look at my grounds.
God created everything, but the universe is made up of everything AND nothing. He created everything to take care of itself thus nature and the cycle of life. Anything that goes against nature goes against god, humans mastubating goes against nature because if you're masterbating, then you are not reproducing. Reproduction is a part of nature, that's all I'm saying.
And my argument is relevent without your silly assumption. MASTERBATION CAN LEAD TO THE END OF THE HUMAN RACE!!
Suppose you have 100 men on earth. 20 of the men masterbate because they're asexual, but it's okay because you still have 80 men who can be used for reproduction. And those 20 men are asexual because they choose to be, FREE WILL. Just like those 80 are heterosexual because they choose to be, FREE WILL.
But suppose all 100 men were asexual and they only masterbated. Well then the human race can't reproduce thus the end of life as we know it. And those 100 are asexual because they CHOOSE to be, FREE WILL. MASTERBATION CAN LEAD TO THE END OF THE HUMANE RACE IF THE RIGHT CONDITIONS ARE MET JUST AS SEXUAL INTERCOURSE CAN LEAD TO THE CONTINUING OF THE HUMAN RACE IF THE RIGHT CONDITIONS ARE MET. Anything is possible.
And since you brought it up in this debate, it is in this debate. We were created, or are you so stupid that you can't fathom the fact that you were nothing until your father put his sperm with your mother's egg and created you? You went through phases and everything, but you weren't created? Oh that's rich...
And my understanding of christian theology isn't incorrect. Of course they had free will before, but they didn't have the KNOWLEDGE of free will. Without the KNOWLEDGE, they couldn't choose by themselve what they could do or what they had to do. They had to be told or persuaded. Without knowledge, you just do things to be doing things, why? because you're stupid. point blank period. Right and wrong is your own perception of justice, so right and wrong can be anything and anything can be right and wrong. Right and wrong cancel eachother out in the real world, so at the same time they exist, they do not.
Animals masterbate but they don't the knowledge to be able to do it for the rest of their life. We can choose to be asexual. Now if a primate was put into an environment whit no other primates of course he'd be asexual. He'd have no choice due to the fact that there was no one to reproduce with. He'd masterbate because his hormones still raged. Simply put. But with knowledge of free will, I could sit in a room full of naked women just ready to have my baby and STILL choose to masterbate by my damned self.
EVERYONE ONLY MASTERBATING AND NOT REPRODUCING WOULD END THE HUMAN RACE ignotant lard. THAT IS COMMON SENSE. THE ONLY WAY TO KEEP YOUR SPECIES ALIVE IS TO SURVIVE AND REPRODUCE. SO ANY ARGUMENT TO THE AFFECT THAT NOT REPRODUCING IS BAD IS RELEVENT. BECAUSE WITHOUT REPRODUCTION THE HUMAN RACE WOULD DIE OFF. WE WOULD CEASE TO EXIST. HOW IS THAT NOT BAD FOR THE HUMAN RACE?
TRY AGAIN SIR...
"And here was me thinking debate was a form of conversation..."
And I never said it wasn't a conversation Chuck, I said and I quote, this is a debate, not your EVERDAY conversation, meaning it's a conversation, just not the type that people have on a day to day basis. Use your logic and reasoning. Debates are a little more heated and don't include small talk because it's a battle of wits. Use your logic and reasoning Chuck.
"To know what everything encompasses, would make one omniscient. I know the definition of the word "everything", I do not know what it is. "
"What is everything?"
To know what everything encompasses does not make one omniscient. If you know the definiton of the word "everything" and still don't know what everything is you are simply ignorant. That's your fault Chuck.
Everything is everything. The Universe is made up of everything and nothing. Everything being EVERY-THING!! Everything is just everything you see, touch, smell, taste, hear, all of the things in reality, nouns. Everything is everything Chuck.
"You said you have proof of a cyclical universe, essentially. I assumed you were talking about the Big Crunch theory. Unless you meant something else."
Well, I just looked up what the Big Crunch was and that's exactly what I was talking about, I just didn't know it had a name for it lol. At any rate I have no reason not to believe in the big crunch so inform me, how is it unlikely now?
"99% of all species ever to have lived on Earth are now extinct. Humanity was down to about 10,000 at one point. If that does not constitute as "crappy", I don't know what is."
Apparently you're not looking at the big picture, open your mind Chuck. Use logic and reasoning. 99% of all species died...oh really? Chuck I didn't know that... <--sarcasm
None of that suggests crap, in fact, it suggests the opposite, he did not do a crappy job. He created things to keep themselves going, an ongoing cycle of life. Things die because other things need to surive, simply put. So many animals died yes, but that is a part of nature, the cycle of life. Life is about the survival of the fittest, or what else is evolution? People were almost extinct, but we're not, showing how superior we are to all other species. We have grown to the billions and are increasing everyday. If it wasn't for his perfect job of creating nature, we wouldn't be here. The simple fact that you're here is proof enough. If that doesn't constitute as "perfect" I don't know what is. Everything that has ever lived has had a chance to live, everything that is alive is alive, everything that will have a chance to live, will have a chance to live, how the hell are you gonna complain about a system that gives you life you ungrateful piece of meat. It's a shame Chuck...
"And many animals will fail to do so. Some animals will fight to the death to reproduce. Why make such a risky system?"
It's not a risky system Chuck. What is a risk? When you gamble something way more important than what something else is worth. Like me betting my life on a poker game just to win enough money to pay my bills. THAT'S risky, cause it isn't worth it. But putting one's life on the line for life?....That's not risky Chuck...Life and death are equal...
"Omniscience precludes free will."
Just how does omnisciene, the state of being omniscient, preclude free will. They have nothing to do with eachother. We have free will so how is free will impossible? What is your point?
"I must disagree. I submit the human eye, Hurricane Katrina, and Jedward as examples."
Like I said, he makes no mistakes, all of those things are a part of nature. Everything is a part of nature. He created everything but it is not his fault someone can't see. Sight is evolutionary. If we needed better sight we'd have it, but we don't, so we don't. Where's the mistake? Hurricane Katrina? Like I said, a part of nature, Jedward, a part of nature. Nature is perfect Chuck. Where's the mistake? How are these mistakes?
"Every single human being on the planet losing all urge to reproduce and taking up masturbation instead is, I would say, impossible, or at least so unlikely that numbers could not express it."
It is exactly as you said, so unlikely that numbers might not express it. But numbers are infinite so it could be expressed, it'd just take time. Just cause something has a one out of a quizillion chance of happening doesn't meant it's impossible. As long as their is a possiblity, it's possible, and a number CAN express it.
"I'm afraid you're wrong there. Many people are asexual. And, as a matter of fact, asexual reproduction is vital to human survival. We'd be dead in a hour or two without asexual reproduction."
You need to wisen up Chuck. Like I said, WE are not asexual, meaning we as a whole, because if we were, like I previously stated, that would mean the end of the human race Chuck. I know there are people who are asexual Chuck. I'm asexual Chuck.
"Yes it is. That's why it will probably never happen."
That's all I have been trying to say and you agreed with it showing that I have won this debate. Odds are, it won't happen. Why? Because there are so many people, but you said it yourself, once, the human population got down to 10000 people. With less people it would be more probably. Less minds to convince. If the population can get that low, what's stopping it from becoming one? What's stopping me from being the last man on earth thus ending the human race? With a world war 3, nuclear bombs and all, it might not be as impossible as you think. Just saying Chuck...
"I will concede that it could happen, but it's ludicrous to even contemplate it. And if it did happen, it almost certainly wouldn't be our own choice. Evolutionary instinct would prevent us from doing so, making some sort of outside intervention necessary for it to happen."
That's where you're wrong chuck. I know for a fact that if I was the last man on earth, I would choose to not reproduce. I like asexuality. Meaning all that it would in fact be our own choice because if i'm the only representation of the human race left the I am we. And if I choose to not reproduce, we choose to not reproduce. Anything is possible.
"Not really. I could choose to try and fly, I doubt that the situation is "perfectly possible"."
Like I said, the situation is perfectly possible. You could choose to TRY and fly, but you would fail because honestly humans can't fly. But what did you WANT to do? You WANTED to fly. But what did you CHOOSE to do? You CHOSE to TRY. You failed, but you successfully TRIED, and that's what you chose to do. But that's not to say that you can't fly entirely. All it takes is science. If you really wanted to fly, what's stopping you from getting on a plane and flying somewhere?
Try again Chuck.....
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