The diversity of that pattern is what I think you are identifying as random, is that true? If so, then I’ll continue.

Yes I am referring to the diversity of the pattern. Although I must add: when it comes to animals, it is very possible that the pattern is genetically coded.

What I am proposing however is that the genetic code can be random and still yield orderly results.

If we cannot discern the causes of the variability within a considered pattern, shall we assume that the variations are random, or shall we assume our knowledge is incomplete?

Both can be true.

I do not think anything or condition exists as a random consequence. Why, all that ‘is’ must exist as a consequence of a cause, including conditions of existence.

Agreed. But the "cause" and the "conditions of existence" can be a random code or a random sequence of events. Do we agree on this?

Because from a theological and philosophical perspective, there can be no freedom unless those events and codes are random. (I can explain this more if you would like me to).

Without the laws of mathematics, fractal theory has no foundation.

And yet it still happens.

The tree's branch patterns, the patterns on a zebra, the patterns on a tiger, the patterns of a river's branches... they all happen, randomly.

And there is no mathematical law or rule or equation that will ever predict those patterns, no matter how thoroughly we study and observe them.

However, any field of knowledge that can reasonably predict or prescribe the above is mathematically predicated.

That is true.

But is there one? And do you think there will ever be one?

How can any field ever be able to predict that which has no order?

This was one of the funniest episodes ever, and I couldn't summ it up better than these guys. So, enjoy...

THEY TOOK HIS JOB!!!!

Bare in mind, if Fractal theory advances the supposition that all observations are necessarily false, then we must also infer that Fractal theory is necessarily false.

Fractal theory does not advance that supposition.

True or false: Fractal theory is mathematically described?

This is an interesting point.

But you are confusing the description of specific fractals with the description of a law that applies to all fractals.

So yes, mathematical language and geometry can describe (to a certain extent) an existing fractal. And you can even create your own mathematical fractals in the realm of your imagination.

But can mathematical rules predict or prescribe the variety of fractals that happen in the real world?

Can mathematical rules predict the branches of a tree? Or the branches that a river might create?

No, the laws where not invented by the language. But our description of the laws requires the language. But in reality the observed is infinite. So the language will never be adequate enough to describe the full extent of the infinite reality.

In other words, there may well be a law, but it is certainly not confined to the description we have given it.

Which is why the universe doesn't quite work like a clockwork mechanism.

Having said that, I am not making this case to prove that God doesn't exist.

I just don't agree with the idea that the finite order we observe is somehow the work of an infinite creator.

Fractal theory however makes a lot more sense, because it proposes that all things are infinite (in fractions), which is nothing less than I would expect from an infinite creator.

OK, so..., for example..., you are happy living among people who think that gay marriage is an abomination...

I may not agree with the view, but I accept the people.

I do not wish that they would somehow go away.

Those same people are probably responsible for hundreds of good deeds.

...you would do nothing to try and force them to change their point of view..

Force them? No.

I would not force anybody to change their point of view.

But that doesn't stop me from starting a dialog with them.

It doesn't stop me from debating or reasoning with them.

..and force gay marriage down their throats...., right?

For me to force gay marriage down their throats, I would have to put a gun up a straight man's head and force him to marry another man.

Because that is what constitutes "forcing gay marriage down their throats".

So far I have never heard a gay person wanting to do that, so you can relax.

What YOU mean however, is that you demand to have a say on what other people do, even if what they want to do has nothing to do with you, is not illegal and doesn't hurt anybody.

This is no different to: a child that is about to eat some chocolate, and another totally unrelated child throwing a fit about it and demanding that the first child not eat the chocolate.

You are the unrelated child that is throwing the fit. Not only are you throwing a fit, but you are now dreaming of a Utopia where that other child wouldn't be allowed to eat chocolate if he chooses to live in the same place as you.

That is how ridiculous and unreasonable you are.

But regardless of what I think of you, I'm still happy to tolerate you.

That is our difference.

I mean, it's a no brainer. If you don't like a group of people, then stay away from them, avoid conflict, don't start killing them. How hard is that?

Not hard at all Joe. I'm glad you see that.

But you don't need to be physically away from people you don't like.

I want to tell people, you cannot come here and do "blah." If you want to do "blah" go over there. My approach is tolerant of the views of others.

No. No it's not Joe.

Your first two sentences contradict the third.

I don't want to force people into changing their views. They can keep whatever views they want.

That's good. But it's only part of your Utopian picture. The other part is the bit where you force what views are accepted in a certain area.

And most importantly, what views are incompatible with other views.

You, on the other hand, want to force people into changing their views to match your views.

No Joe.

I'm happy living amongst people with all kinds of views.

I'm not the one advocating that anybody who doesn't think like me should go live somewhere else...

You want to force everyone to accept and tolerate everyone you decide is worth tolerating. And you call me intolerant and hateful?!?!?! WTF?

I haven't forced anybody to tolerate nobody. Neither have I ever expressed a desire to have such power. If you have any evidence of the contrary please do tell.

You try to come across as all tolerant/benevolent and the first thing you do is try to pin negative labels on me (hateful, shallow, presumptuous, uncomprehending).

I do think you are all those things.

But that doesn't stop me from tolerating the fact that you are here.

That is our difference Joe.

I'm also fairly certain that you would be able to join more than one game, so the focus would be on the similarities of the players in that one game, even if in other regards they aren't remotely compatible.

Which is what we have now.

A society where people who are otherwise remotely compatible, and yet play all kinds of games with each other.

You have to distinguish between ideas that are proposed through a sincere attempt to make the world a better place, and ideas that masquerade as helpful prepositions and yet fundamentally are nothing but an expression of fear and hate.

Joe's ideas so far fall into the later category.

I think you'll find that Joe's "argument" isn't an argument at all.

It's not even an idea that has been thought through for more than a milli-second.

It's yet another example of the shallow garbage that is spouted by individuals who hate or cannot comprehend the fact that people are diverse.

It is foolish to presume that just because someone likes Gambling, that they would get along well with other people who also like Gambling, in a place where Gambling is allowed. Or that Terrorists would get along with other Terrorists on the basis that they are both Terrorists.

So Joe's Utopia would require for us to rearrange the terrain in such a way that each one of us lives on an island, alone.

We already have such places... they are called "homes".

You already have the ability to play whatever game you wish in your home.