BigOats, math is a good tool its function is to predict and calculate variables in models. So the achilles heel of maths is the model you are using yes some are GOOD ENOUGH but are still incorrect due to simple reason of definitions of our universe which are based on models, so you can now understand the issue with maths and its presumptions aligned with preconceived outcomes determined by the model..

So put your calculator down and realize this fundamental error in the above equation MOMENTUM FLUX due to emission..This is assumed and not even explained as if it is an empirical definition like F=ma which is not empirical and cannot be proven correct or false it is unfalsifiable. Occurrences are not causes.. Where do you cite anywhere in the rocket equation the effect of Joules Expansion and shockwave interaction with an external medium AIR...

I dispute the relevance of any rocket equation as none use vacuum principles or shock-waves created from displacement of fast hot gas meeting slow cool gas as components of force and lack off force once craft reach near vacuum of space...

So do please show me your revised equation when it includes the above missing components Joules Expansion and Bernoullis principles explaining shockwaves.. Otherwise your math is just a shopfront without merchandise in the rear.

Evading defeat is what a competitor avoids, this may be a debate but there are no prizes.

Just try to comprehend what i have said and realize your world is not perfect nor will you travel to space using mechanical thrust.

Try not to take it personally that you are wrong. Its not your fault but you are believing in a boys dream that he would some day go to space his name is ROBERT GODDARD..I will in successive posts put down some important information about Robbert.

Ironically a rocket is no different to a pressurized tank full of propane...

The valve prevents external pressure information entering the internal pressure environment or escaping the tank…..essentially the flow of released gas is choked by the valve, this is a condition designed into rocket nozzles and is critical to the performance of the rocket in the AIR.

The propane tank is releasing pressure that is proportional to its pressure and volume reducing..

Now we have established the propane tank is releasing gas not forcing it out.

So this means there is no force returned internally to the bottle upstream from the valve...

Where is force returned to the propane bottle if it is not internally?

The force is returned to the valve externally IF the bottle were inhabiting a medium to share/return force with the released gas, in space this is impossible as the gas is freely expanding without force needed or force produced...a positive pressure external to a container cannot exist in space.

The rocket has even less chances of a propane bottle of obtaining momentum..why?

Because the choked condition of a rocket nozzle is not a solid valve or a valve that is solid, choked flow relies on the upstream pressure to produce a congestion of gas mass and velocity that permits chamber pressure to become static and separated from external pressure information/enviroment. And this means like the propane bottle the force produced that propels a rocket is due to the AIR reacting to the released thrust externally, the force exists between the nozzle throat(Choked Flow) and the external inhabiting medium AIR as space cannot reciprocate a force ....

The issue i have with gas as the mass that pushes a rocket internally is that the reaction chamber is a static pressure environment like the propane tank but its pressure is renewed by a constant reaction, but it still utterly relies upon the choked condition of the nozzle making the reaction chamber a pressure vessel not a reaction motor…The reaction chamber of a rocket is purely a pressure vessel..

You normally don't consider things that can freely move past one another as the same object kinetically.

"I've already explained this it is not necessary for the rocket exhaust to push against anything EXCEPT THE SHIP ITSELF."

You are explaining force internal to the reaction chamber moving a subsonic velocity is what accelerates a rocket to supersonic velocity.. INTERNAL force is STATIC sub sonic velocity at 1140psi for a Merlin1D rocket motor.

Obviously you fail to PROPERLY comprehend "equals and opposites" it a common mistake..

: Every body perseveres in its state of being at rest or of moving uniformly straight forward except insofar as it is compelled to change its state by forces impressed.

What is an impressed force....This force consists in the action only, and remains no longer in the body when the action is over. For a body maintains every new state it acquires by its inertia only. But impressed forces are of different origins, as from percussion, from pressure, from centripetal force.

'Equal and opposite'

One problem frequently observed by physics educators is that students tend to apply Newton's Third Law to pairs of 'equal and opposite' forces acting on the same object. A ROCKET IS ISOLATED in space, it force is isolated its exhaust is isolated.

Impressed forces are of different origins, Rocket is the origin of the gas, gas is the origin or pressure and carries potential kinetic energy, gas IS NOT PUSHING or applying kinetic energy internal to the rocket. The rocket is a PRESSURE VESSEL of static 1000psi SUBSONIC heated pressurized gas and only can be such whilst it is contained in atmospheric containment where its contained by the envelope of the earth atmosphere of containment..EMPHASIS CONTAINMENT..

You want to control what I say and how I say it ? Just accept i am being particularly comprehensive and am delivering a cultural and significant diagnosis of an elementary misconception... long winded is just your reaction to new information the usurps consensus opinion..and it isnt the first time this sort of thing has happened in history as Medical science has had many ideas challenged and overturned in the light of better observations and techniques...How would you like to operated on in the field during the civil war??

But i digress.

You, as the majority have taken Newtons third law and applied it to one object Rocket/Gas with it own impressed force which is incorrect application of the law of equals and opposites...

Just so we are on the same page, where does a rocket receive the force of the kinetic energy that propels its mass, is it internal opposite the outlet nozzle or is it external from the chamber through the nozzle and nozzle bell? In your answer try to remember the experimentally verified results of JOULES EXPANSION.

Pls dont get pouty about my enthusiasm to my research as i am 100% backed by science and i dont use formulas that are applied incorrect..

You cite the proof of F=ma is the rocket moving..that is so scientific it breaks my brain..occurrences are not causes any scientist knows this..

Where is the force Luke internal or external ?

Ill BE BAach..

Yours and aerospace's assumption is that an isolated system is thrusting mass and receiving a opposite reaction from it own ejected(thrown)mass what is your proof gas is pushing the rocket internally? A formula ? that declares FORCE equals therefore it is?

You believe and so do the majority of observers that there is internal recoil from an unbalanced condition due to gas being forced through a constriction and let to rapidly expand once though it. And once gas has left the rocket it is irrelevant..

Let me point put to you all, the chain of events from chamber to the inhabiting medium(AIR/space)

We will take it for granted there can be pressure achieved inside an open container in a vacuum ? which is impossible, but for the sake of the discussion we will assume 1000psi in the reaction chamber, static 1000psi this SUB SONIC heated pressurized gas enters the convergent section of the exhaust, the pressure at the initial opening of the nozzle is higher NOT lower than chamber pressure say 1001psi as gas passes through the nozzle it gains SONIC velocity and as it reaches the divergent section only then it obtains its SUPERSONIC velocity..So wouldn't this speak to you by itself that force is external against the nozzle and nozzle bell(divergent) section of the rocket where the gas is at its fastest velocity ..

Rocket science utterly relies upon internal force mass on mass reaction because space cannot support Bernoullis principles which describe the process of shockwave formation and propagation upon which a rocket utterly depends for shock waves to form in the nozzle throat to achieve CHOKED FLOW..

You want to know all the secrets well they wouldnt be secrets if we knew, but rest assured I am revealing one to you right ATM..

It boils downs to this. By experimental verification determined by JOULES EXPANSION you simply cannot force thrust eject or throw gas into a vacuum and expect a force returned by doing so, as a rocket is isolated and therefore F=ma does not apply..

Given Ive allowed a container to achieve a positive pressure which is impossible in space, a rocket still is unable to utilize an accelerated gas point mass continuum that doesnt interact with itself or the rocket..

Vacuum Exposure

http://www.geoffreylandis.com/higgins.html

How long will it take a spacecraft to decompress?

Question:

Is there a formula or rule-of-thumb for making a rough estimate of the rate of air loss in a space craft for a given size air leak?

Answer

The quick approximation is that the air will flow out of the hole at the speed of sound.

For a more detailed calculation, Professor Andrew Higgins of McGill University gives the following answer:

The air will leak through the hole at sonic velocity (Mach one at constriction of the leak).

You said :You were asked a question but wouldn't give a one word answer as in yes /no now you are saying throwing mass in a vacuum is not possible which means your answer is no ; this means you are incorrect .

No that's not what i said, i said that throwing a ball in space has nothing to do with the propulsion of a rocket, therefore it is a moot point.

Throwing, ejecting, thrusting or forcing as gas into space is impossible, this is verified by the Joules Expansion experiment..

https://youtu.be/T2Nuxralkj8

http://www.etomica.org/app/modules/sites/JouleThomson/Background2.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joule_expansion

The outcome of the Joules expansion experiment verifies that gas molecules do not speed up under expansion. The threshold is the speed they can communicate pressure information to surrounding molecules whilst in containment...release gas into vacuum of space and molecules have no impedance(containment) and therefore this is no longer a gas of pressure..

Rocket thrust in the atmosphere is NOT mass pushing the inside of the reaction chamber rushing out of the rocket like balls ...

Thrust is no different in concept to newtons cradle as the balls dont change position they merely communicate a force from one ball to the next the same as waves move over the surface of water, the water molecules dont go far they just rise up and down.

You start to understand that force is not internal to a rocket when you actually realize what thrust is and how the AIR is critical as containment, as it is the other half of the reaction motor commonly called a rocket.

A rocket is purely a pressure vessel that can accelerate a gas to create displacement and in turn shockwaves which the rocket rides upon like a vertically surfing tube...

And to set the record straight newton second and third laws are unfalsifyable and science avoids this type of dilemma.

I haven't even mentioned the first law of thermo dynamics...

A way of expressing the first law of thermodynamics is that any change in the internal energy (∆E) of a system is given by the sum of the heat (q) that flows across its boundaries and the work (w) done on the system by the surroundings:

Heres your home work, show me how a rocket interacts with its surroundings in space ?

Im not an expert but due to the research Ive done these past months i would say i am highly informed...more than some aerospace guys ive talked to, who really didn't understand CHOKED FLOW, and why the speed of sound is a threshold for gas expansion into a vacuum which is experimentally verified..

I intricately explained a yes or no answer to the question of throwing mass in a vacuum is not possible...and its obvious why.

F=ma cannot be used to explain massless particles or isolated systems such as a rocket in a vacuum devoid of boundaries...

Your statement is official company criteria, why does nasa not talk about JOULES EXPANSION or Bernoullis principles...they cant it will ruin the illusion that mass in motion is prime, which it isn't.

It is utterly necessary that opposite torque from the rockets exhaust be the pivotal force otherwise they have nothing, think about that...

In conclusion to use F=ma is a fopar, an embarrassing mistake...Newtons second and third laws are not very good science for a rocket in a vacuum..

A rocket in space is isolated it cannot raise a pressure in space whilst the nozzle is open to vacuum..

Right now try pumping up tyre that has a large hole or tear in it ... why cant you raise the pressure of this tyre?

The same applies to rockets in a vacuum without boundaries..

You have a mass(ball) but you cannot throw it.

So asking the question what would happen if you threw a ball in space has ZERO relevance to rocket thrust, the question is loaded to roll in favor of the misconception of applied force due to pressure accelerating mass..

You cannot accelerate gas entering space vacuum. Period.

Amarel and dermot, these debate sites are quite prolific and there are science and physics pages as well, i have no shortage of outlets for discussion, in fact i have to limit my activity to make it easier on me...

Amarel can pout all they like, i explained the issue about the question of representation of mass...You Both along with aerospace will have the masses believe mass is just mass...

A rocket cannot thrust eject throw or push mass above and beyond the speed of sound in space, WHY i will let you both ponder on that.

Solids are best defined as occupying a constant volume and retaining their shape when moderate forces are applied to them.

Liquids also occupy a constant volume but easily change shape to match that of their container by flowing to form a horizontal surface. They are said to ‘flow’ easily or be ‘runny’ or ‘wetting’ and can withstand moderate compressive forces.

A gas can occupy any size container, is also able to ‘flow’ and can be easily compressed with moderate forces.

Ok for the sake of a Rocket you cannot compare throwing a ball to releasing a gas at the speed of sound...

What if we look at the analogy, in this way.

I am on a skate board, in an atmosphere.. And I can like a whip move my hand at a velocity greater than the speed of sound.

What would the reaction be ? I believe you have heard whips crack yes?

Cavitation

Inertial cavitation is the process where a void or bubble in a liquid rapidly collapses, producing a shock wave. And we hear a loud crack from a whip when this happens.

DO you believe I would move on my skateboard if i could crack my hand like a whip ?

Ok i will save time here and say yes for you, so why would I move, im not throwing mass.?

Moving my hand so fast will create pressure waves which precede my hand this effect displaces atmosphere faster than it can move out of the way so it must compress and it creates a high pressure front, now behind my hand there is another interesting situation, a low pressure void or cavity, so now which way do you think i will move away from the high pressure or toward the low pressure? The answer is toward the low pressure and away from the high pressure just like a wing, and Bernoulli principles determine this.

Ok so we have ascertained we CAN use pressure and velocity crated by my hand(thrust) forced against another gas as a spring using my arm as a lever...

The only way a rocket can push off the earth is using this principle, as throwing mass at the ground will give no reaction as gravity cancels it at the rate of 9.8msec. And a rocket has no internally displaced kinetic energy not until after the nozzle throat does a rocket receive an opposite reaction and only when there is sufficient buoyancy from the atmosphere, hence the term SPACE SHIP...

Take away the AIR and you have no propulsion.

Now do what you have to do, is to rebute my contention, that throwing a ball in space has absolutely nothing to do with a rocket and its gas(not solid)thrust in a void.

An object in isolation cannot claim a velocity by its own impressed force.

A object in isolation cannot claim a velocity.

You did read it, it just didnt conform to consensus version of reality, read and re ask me...you cant be that indignant not to peruse my answer....what you thought was checkmate ended in more time for me..

You wish to show there is no refute against one mass moving another mass..

I dont refute sciences terminology of what a mass is, i refute its configuration and its behavior in different environments, they cannot be compared and you know it...but the rocket cause falters without a mass upon mass reaction that is internal to the rocket motor of which there is none....

The only way for a rocket to function is to produce heated pressurized gas , accelerate it and then force it against an ambient medium such as AIR, acceleration of gas through the nozzle utterly depends upon resistance externally to the rocket...

Let explore the limit of a gas velocity entering a vacuum which is known....

Question:

Is there a formula or rule-of-thumb for making a rough estimate of the rate of air loss in a space craft for a given size air leak?

Answer

The quick approximation is that the air will flow out of the hole at the speed of sound.

For a more detailed calculation, Professor Andrew Higgins of McGill University gives the following answer:

The air will leak through the hole at sonic velocity (Mach one at constriction of the leak).

So the speed of sound is THE maximum velocity a gas can enter space....

SO this gives us another question why is the speed of sound the threshold of the velocity of escaping gas despite the internal pressure of the container Be it low or high...This answer needs its own thread so i wont go into it now...

So mach one at the constriction of the leak, is the leak behaving like a rocket nozzle?

Yes, the leak is choked flow of gas at a sonic velocity, and pressure at the leak will be above the internal ambient pressure because molecules are congesting the flow as they sort out which are leaving and in which order, like a traffic jam at the speed of sound....So if the pressure is higher at the leak internaly what does this say about the reaction between the gas and the internal space...STATIC without kinetic energy applied...it a leak at a predetermined rate of flow at a higher pressure than the space craft.

Joules expansion explains what is happening here and it comes down to the gas leaving without force applied and the gas is released not forced thrown or thrusted ...once gas is outside the craft it becomes disassociated molecules which do not interact with each other or the space craft...

Definitions that cannot be unfalsifyable, cannot be presumed to be facts. F=ma has such a status as it fails in explaining mass-less systems and isolated systems, and a rocket is the latter an isolated system in the practical terms of mechanical thrust and its force…

An object in isloation cannot claim a velocity..

Your question is directed to presume that you can grab the ball in space, you think its like asking me if i jump in the air will i come back down...and i can only answer to the logical observable fact that yes i will come back to the ground...you believe if you threw a gas at force it will continue in its path in an opposite direction until something else interacts with it.

The ball is cohesive mass it does not disassociate from itself it is ridged, Gas of a pressure on the other hand is point masses it is a continuum of pressure with potential kinetic energy whilst in a containment..

So superimpose the way a gas will behave onto a ball in a place where gas cannot possibly be a gas of pressure.

And Im sorry a simple yes no answer cannot explain all phenomena.

What gas in space lacks that a ball has is opposite torque..Gas is a continuum of point masses that have elastic collisions as determined by Joules Expansion and Kinetic Molecular Theory...

This is a simple explanation of elastic collisions. And things like balls or solids don't have elastic collisions they have inelastic collisions.

Gas molecules exert no force on each other unless they collide. Collisions of molecules with each other or the walls of the container do not decrease the energy of the system. The molecules of a gas are in constant and random motion. The temperature of a gas depends on its average kinetic energy avg(1/2mv 2) = 3/2kT .

So now do see why it is preferred by rocket science that gas is referred to as mass not point masses...

Imagine a tube open at both ends. Now i wish to raise the pressure inside the tube whilst it is in space..

Ok lets block off one end and try to raise the pressure internally....??

So what is the problem with this tube that it wont achieve pressure whilst it is in space or the atmosphere ?

Hence the vital importance of CHOKED FLOW...or a valve that can either restrict pressure escaping or stop it all together..

So a rocket need a valve in the atmosphere, convergent divergent nozzles are designed to choke the flow and are utterly necessary for a rocket to achieve high velocities with efficiency these nozzle are designed for altitude optimum performance, meaning they must be of different configurations to be efficient at different altitudes. This design altitude relationship clearly shows the dependence of the rocket engine on its environment. And also clearly shows momentum of mass is only relevant as an external reaction not internal...as the chamber doesn't need to change as it environment changes with attitude like the nozzle must..

F=ma cannot tell you why a rocket will work in space as a rocket is practically isolated once it nears space..and the 2nd and 3rd laws cannot deal with isolated systems...or massless particles, it is classical physics that evolved from religion,occult and alchemy...Isacc newton was an occultist and studied alchemy he was highly religious. And deep research into religion will show the occult as its nervous system and the denominations to be fronts to keep the secrets secret..

To make it easier for you why dont we just look at why the SR-71 Blackbird ceilings at 25.9 km....

What makes a blackbird fly?...it has wings and they are in the AIR..but why do the wings lift the black bird only to 26km why not 30 ....30km is only 4km more why couldnt it get past that last 4km?????....

So how does a wing work??? and what is its relationship to AIR...?

The simple answer is the wings make lift they dont force mass against mass...realize what im am saying the Blackbird utterly complies to newtons laws but it is not forcing mass against mass... a wing utilizes bernoulis principles Bernoulli's principle - Wikipedia ....... notice how in the explanation below there is no mention of a wing forcing AIR down and itself up.....lift is pressure difference above the wing...birds and planes are lifted into the AIR because of differential AIR pressures....

Bernoulli's principle can be used to calculate the lift force on an airfoil, if the behaviour of the fluid flow in the vicinity of the foil is known. For example, if the air flowing past the top surface of an aircraft wing is moving faster than the air flowing past the bottom surface, then Bernoulli's principle implies that the pressure on the surfaces of the wing will be lower above than below. This pressure difference results in an upwards lifting force.

Are you with me so far? all good science nothing made up....

So for what reason does a Blackbird ceiling at 25.9km this must have something to do with the wing or the AIR or is it both?? primarily it is because of the LACK OF AIR to provide a pressure differential therefore no lift and coefficients are below required optimum performance for LIFT...

So now you say but a rocket is different it doesnt need Bernoulis Principles to PUSH itself of its exhaust....well for one fact is it does need BP as these principles are at play in the nozzle facilitating the CHOKED FLOW CONDITION .....where the flow that is choked super sonic shockwaves form....this is fine all very sciencey and above board...

But what about the super sonic gas that is released by the rocket, what is it pushing?....You believe and science SAYS it is pushing the opposite wall to the outlet of the reaction chamber.....But this is not the case for the reason of choked flow determines that nozzle throat pressure CHOKED FLOW ensures that pressure information external to the rocket cannot enter the chamber...this would indicate the throat pressure is higher than the chamber pressure.....so if chamber pressure is 1000psi then throat pressure would be above this say 1001psi...wouldnt you agree this means chamber pressure is static 1000psi without imbalance over the nozzle outlet...this simply renders the chamber to be a PRESSURE VESSEL not a REACTION MOTOR.....

Now what is actually pushing the rocket up???

Thrust the accelerated heated pressurized gas is released from the nozzle and encounters some interesting terrain...firstly it encounters the diverging shape of the nozzle bell and secondly it encounters a fluid call it AIR...

As the accelerated gas lets say its 1001 psi meets the AIR at sea level at 14.5 psi the rocket gas suddenly depressurizes to say half its pressure as it travels through the nozzle bell and this happens so suddenly the AIR out side cannot move fast enough and suddenly becomes viscous(THICK) but something must give as the AIR is not very viscous at all...at this stage where pressure information exceeds the ability of the air to react which forms a pressure wave which moves faster than the speed of sound, and the air in its attempt to follow this pressure wave forms a shockwave and passes the pressure information via the medium of molecule proximity provided by AIR(NEWTONS CRADLE).....But this is just the beginning....the released accelerated gas is re pressurized by the delayed AIR reaction to move out of the way and each time this happens because of the Atmospheric opposite reaction, conditions are pushing AIR and shockwaves in opposite direction of the released rocket thrust against the rocket thrust...the visual evidence of this are SHOCK DIAMONDS...All of what i have explained here is due to Bernoulis priciples.....

So what happens if there is no AIR can the rocket still be pushed by it own shockwaves internally to the throat(not chamber)...NO IT CANT this where a rocket fails to meet the criteria of the third law equals and opposites...shockwaves produced by the rocket require a propagatiing medium to return force into the nozzle to create shockwaves...without an external Fluid(AIR) medium the rocket cannot function.....