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3 points

Where the fuck is the part where you prove free will exist? Will you call me an intellectual coward if I ignore your wall of text filled with assertions and no proof or logic?

2 points

You make some good points, albeit with a bad attitude. So, what would you suggest?

A bad attitude is what you call recognizing the problems inherent in a system?

What I suggest is scientific socialism.

You seem to be saying, as I do, that, if capitalism is not somewhat controlled, we , the rest of us, may as well resign ourselves to slavery??

"Controlled" is not good enough, it needs to be phased out, but social democracy is better than plain capitalism for sure.

Putin's oligarchs, and, if Trump wins the next election … HIS oligarchs …. worry me much more than Jewish capitalists!

You called Trump a commie, which is insane. Putin is not a commie, he is a kleptocrat, russia hasn't been communist for years, and Trump being a commie is literally just the most ridiculous thing a person could say.

Wrong, try being less retarded and you might figure it out.

ArchonElite(335) Clarified
1 point

Grugore can't see the forest for the trees. :-)

That's because he is a worthlessly simpletanious banana sucker with the IQ of a burnt pancake.

Hello sexcon;

you are too stupid to address the debate and only want to whine about Jews I see. Very nice, now fuck off and die.

FactMachine, European Socialist

There is a lot of alt abuse on this site and it has created a sort of alt account paranoia that's got everyone thinking that everyone else is someone's alt.

Every time I tell fm he's nom, he goes silent.

That's because there is nothing I can say or do that will penetrate your thick skull and get you to realize we're not the same guy.

I see, so Einstein wasn't good at music therefor his political opinions are invalid. That's brilliant Excon, really. In my personal fact-based thinking process, I think anything Einstein says is automatically more valid than the musings of a talentless know-nothing such as yourself.

3 points

Proponents of the free will position mean that a person with free will makes choices.

So if a person doesn't decide what those choices are they still have free will? Your position is that people doing stuff means free will exists? That's stupid, if people have free will it means they actually control what they do which is impossible because of the mechanistic nature of human existence.

It is the case that people cannot act independent of causation. But then, even if they could, you would not have a person expressing what anyone might consider free will as their actions would be truly and completely random.

Yes and this is exactly what I am referring to in the debate description when I talk about you trying to bypass my arguments rather than create your own. This doesn't in any way provide evidence for free will, it is just a deflection of determinism.

From the free will opponents perspective, free will should never have become a topic of conversation since it does not and cannot exist in any given circumstance, with or without causation. It is a non-subject.

How then did free will become a subject?

How did purple dragons that poop cotton candy become a subject?

Proponents of the free will perspective recognize that people are agents that make independent choices. Independent here does not mean in a vacuum or unconstrained. It means that the agent itself is that which makes the choice. How one chooses is determined by the kind of person they are and the outside circumstances they are in. But they still engage in the act of choosing. And it is still the agent engaging in the act. That is free will from the proponents perspective, and that very clearly exists.

What clearly exists is "will" not FREE will. No one makes independent choices because the human brain is a mechanism and it's behaviour is determined by biology and environmental sensory input. To deny free will is to accept humans for what they are, a part of a physical and mechanistic world. To believe in free will is to believe that humans have some magical property which allows them to make "independent choices" when they are just part of a series of causal dominoes falling according to the laws of nature.

Opponents then argue that the agent was the kind of person who chooses to change what kind of person they are, which is a quality that is fundamental to the agent and thus could not be chosen. While that is true, it does not negate the fact that the agent is making choices, so it does not disprove the proponents perspective.

So humans don't have free will but they have will so they have free will, got it. This is absolutely bizarrely stupid. You are literally accepting everything I said but still clinging to the notion of free will out of pure desperation. You are literally arguing that the mere act of doing something proves you have free will, regardless of whether you actually CHOOSE your choices. If you make a "choice" but you don't choose what choices you make then "choice" is just a primitive, retarded type zero word.

Indeed such constraints are necessary to the free will proponent who will argue for responsibility of an agent for their actions. Without the fundamental constraint of character, we would not be able to judge by their actions what kind of person an agent is.

This is why I can't help but think of you as a lower being, it feels like I am talking to some type of primitive monkey rather than a member of my own species. Now you are making the non-argument that we NEED free will so that we can blame people for shit. If we don't have free will, then our socially constructed legal system and moral values wouldn't work LOL. You are such a laughably stupid, superstitious creature.

But since an agent makes choices based on the kind of person they are in context of their circumstances , we can categorize people by character trait tendency (honest, violent, manipulative, etc).

No, people do not need free will in order to have personality traits XD

Indeed the person who cannot name their causes is less of a free will agent than the person who can name all of them.

Proponents of free will assume every action is a choice, and thus they ignore the causes behind behaviour. In reality there are measures that can be taken to prevent the conditions which lead to destructive behaviour but in a free will predicated society you simply expect people to go along with social constructs and punish them for their "choices" when they steal your shit due to living a life of poverty. You have done nothing to PROVE free will, all you have done is play word games to try and get around the facts of causality and determinism. This is because your belief in free will is not rational or empirical, it is an excuse for the social constructs you prefer to reason to be valid. You need free will to exist otherwise your notions of how society should work would be arbitrary and stupid, which they are.

Cool.. At least you ADMIT I'm a Jew.. Bout fucking time..

Looks like you're too stupid to address the point. Einstein was more of a marxist than a capitalist, are you going to claim your brilliant jewish brother was not "serious" ?

I dunno ANY serious person who thinks communism is a good economic system..

Einstein sympathized more with Marxism than capitalism since he was a socialist, and in my opinion he was a much better Jew than you'll ever be.

Bernie Sanders is not a proper socialist (maybe he is at heart, but his platform is not). What he is technically classified as is a social democrat, which is a half-assed socialist who would allow capitalism to still exist in a more regulated and redistributive form.


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