Globalization is here, whether we like it or not. Has it had a positive impact overall? I would argue yes, but it's not like there haven't been some losers as well. The real issue is that there's no way to stop globalization.

"The U.S. government spends money that it doesn't have and gives away almost 50% of its tax revenue through foreign aid and welfare"

LOL...the foreign aid budget of the USA is something around $30-50 Billion/year (or around 1% of the U.S. federal budget), and welfare was "reformed" back in the 1990s. It's not a significant portion of the USA federal budget anymore.

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/2012/02/how-much-does-uncle-sam-spend-on-foreign-aid.html

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/ statements/2011/apr/13/barack-obama/barack-obama-says-foreign-aid-makes-1-percent-us-b

I personally think that the USA should spend less on foreign aid (see below), but one can't balance the budget just by slashing foreign aid alone.

"If taxes are raised, they should be raised on everyone. To balance the budget you would need a 88% tax on the highest earning bracket, and after the taxes, they would actually be making less than the lower class. Taxing one group more than another is unfair, biased and immoral"

...in your wild, Right-wing fantasy world that is...ugh... Progressive taxation is another completely non-controversial issue, except on the far Right-wing in the USA. Ending the GWB tax cuts (for mostly the rich ) & taxing millionaires at a slightly higher tax rate would yield another $3-4 Trillion in federal revenue over the next decade of so. Raising taxes on corporations, especially multi-national corporations, & hedge fund managers would yield another $100 Billion or so in federal revenue over the next decade or so. Eliminating unnecessary tax breaks for extraction (like Big Oil) & toxic chemical industries would yield another $70 Billion or so in federal revenue over the next decade or so. Limiting charitable giving and state & local tax deductions would yield another $1 Trillion or so in federal revenue over the next decade or so.

Keeping the estate tax at the estate level of $3.5+ Million (which will affect 0.5% of all estates) will fund around 27% of the projected, long-term Social Security (SS) shortfall. Bringing the SS payroll tax back to its historical level of taxation (around 90% of income) will fund around 40% (or around $550 Billion over the next decade or so alone) of the projected, long-term SS shortfall. Gradually raising the full SS retirement age over time to age 70 will fund around 35% (around $110 Billion over the next decade or so alone) of the projected, long-term SS shortfall. Extending SS coverage to more state & local govt. employees will fund around 10% of the projected, long-term SS shortfall.

Is there federal spending that can be cut as well? Sure, including around $110 Billion or so in unneeded "defense" spending, around $200 Billion in foreign aid, ending the failed No Child Left Behind nonsense (around $100 Billion) and reforming farm subsidies (around $10 Billion) all over the next decade or so.

Only through a balanced approach of spending cuts & increases in revenue can the federal budget be balanced over the long-term.

"Forced redistribution of wealth is extortion and theft"

LOL...again, spoken like a true member of the far Right-wing. The idea that taxation somehow equals "theft" is a wild assertion at best. Run along now...

You're talking about the exact same thing as what GWB did with taxes, period.

Paying taxes is a necessary responsibility of being a citizen, and we have unfortunately run up debts (which were things that were paid for with borrowed money...mostly under past GOP "leadership") which basically have to paid for with taxes at some point. There's no physical way to balance the U.S. federal budget & pay down at least some of the federal debt without raising some kind of tax on someone. Better taxes be raised on those that can better afford those higher taxes than on the middle or working classes IMHO.

The issue of govt. redistributing wealth via taxation literally goes back to the Roman Republic. It's only a "controversial" issue on the far Right-wing in the USA.

Iran may have made threats when it comes to the Strait of Hormuz, but they don't have the military power to do anything but be a minor nuisance in those area waters. Their navy is a joke.

LOL...and GWB didn't "buy" people with their own money by giving them tax breaks during his term?? Please...

Nope. I've known a lot of tomboys, and a lot of them are very normal, well-adjusted people.

No, there's no point to doing that...sticking to the facts of the matter speaks volumes.

There's no reason for the USA to declare war on Iran. Iran has every right to develop nuclear energy as an alternative to petroleum, which is going to eventually run out anyways. Iran currently relies very heavily on others to refine the petroleum that they produce, and, while I don't support nuclear energy myself, Iran was given the go-ahead by the West under the Shah to develop nuclear energy. I personally think that a better solution for Iran's energy problems would better lie with wind, solar or geothermal energy, or other countries could provide Iran with enough nuclear fuel to power as many reactors as they want. In the very recent past, the USA has taken weapons-grade nuclear fuel from counties (like Mexico) that didn't want to have to safeguard it anymore...we could do the same thing with Iran if need be.

If I was Iranian & I saw what happened under the GWB Regime with the "Axis of Evil" countries (Iran, Iraq & North Korea), I'd want a nuclear weapon yesterday, not several years from now. Our potential adversaries unfortunately were shown under GWB that we'll leave you alone if you have even a crude nuclear weapon (North Korea) or we'll invade you & topple your regime (Iraq) if you don't have a nuclear weapon.

The USA doesn't need to strike Iran for Israel, since Israel is very capable of defending themselves (with nuclear weapons if need be). The mullahs that run Iran currently aren't going to attack Israel & risk their own destruction...they are cowards.

Blah, blah, blah...what's your next "argument" going to be Nazi-boy?? "And so's your mother!" Please, you've run out of mildly coherent things to say in this thread...therefore, I'm DONE responding to you here...so ramble on moron...

"You have no proof of that."

Of course I do...the falsehoods that you stated here again & again are right here in black & white for all to see.

BTW, don't like being laughed at eh?? Well, know that when others read your utter nonsense here that they'll be doing the same thing...lol...

"All media is opionated whether you like it or not"

...but that doesn't mean that all media is lying, moron.

"Great debating skills."

Same to you...you certainly have a knack for saying nothing again & again & again...

"I haven't done any homework in 10 years."

It's had to have been a LOT longer than that, because apparently you didn't learn a thing in school kiddo.

"Then verify them. Use another source SAYING THE SAME THING."

What a moron you really are...you just don't like being schooled with the FACTS of the matter, so you feebly try to claim "bias" in the actual factual reporting, where there is none...lol...what a joke...

"I don't live in America. Germany."

Then you disgrace Germany with your support of illegal torture, period. Run along now...

"Inhuman acts do not deserve human rights."

All humans have rights, period.

"They should be treated as POW's not regular prisoners"

...who both have rights as well.

"You had no response for this"

Of course I did, you just don't know how to read apparently, moron.

"Google it."

So, it MY job to do YOUR homework here?? I don't think so, moron.

LOL...thanks for admitting that you have nothing of actual value to contribute to this discussion, but what else is new eh??

"from now on, I'll refer to you as a Nazi."

Riiiight...because I spout all kinds of Nazi propaganda on this website...not...what an idiot & a liar you really are...sheesh...

"If someone does not wish to help the poor, it's his fuckin' right."

Not through taxes it isn't...and 'round & 'round we go.

"not that of a Fascist government."

We don't have a fascist govt., idiot.

"This isn't a discussion on how we should vote."

This is a discussion on how our system of govt. works...one that you don't want to participate in or acknowledge, which is YOUR problem, not mine.

"I provided evidence using reason and matching of Thomas Jefferson wanted."

No, you meshed your OPINION onto Jefferson and made believe that you were in agreement with him, period.

"As for your crime rate chart, you failed to mention that these crimes included VIOLENT crimes"

...which doesn't matter at all. You don't think that crimes for monetary value ever turn violent?? Well, you've never been in a liquor store holdup, like some of my friends were when we were all much younger.

"You failed to show any other decades"

...which doesn't matter, since I know when welfare reform was...it was in the mid-1990s.

"You failed to mention that they included sexual assault and rape in the statistic"

Never heard of those types of crimes where the perpetrator took things of value as well?? What a surprise...

"You failed to say that this is the amount of crimes REPORTED to police officers."

Riiiight, because all (or even most of) the crimes that are reported to the police are bogus...not...learn some logic you fool...

"I know you Nazi Communists like the term comrade"

LMAO! Fascists & communists are at the opposite end of the world political spectrum, moron. You just showed how much you know about politics & history...absolutely, positively NOTHING!

"But crime rates are DOWN."

Gee whiz, and your "evidence" (with no reports on the total amount of crime BTW) are for "Number of offenses reported" AND include "rape"...lol...what an idiot you really are.

"And, of course, before LBJ (king of welfare) crime was lower as well."

Baloney.

"correlation does not prove causation, of course, but if you want to make an argument about the comparison between crime rate and welfare... well, statistics will only show that more welfare equals more crime. Less welfare equals less crime."

Nice job at contradicting yourself all in the same phrase...LMAO! Take a course in logic kiddo, then come back another time...because we're DONE here.

"The possibility of a terrorist escaping is a non-issue."

Of course it is...there is nothing to fear from terrorists in this country that are safely locked up, since NONE of them have ever escaped!

"The issue is the political cowardice of some people who think we need to kowtow to our detractors. Personally I could give a damn what France or anyone thinks about America - and it gets tiresome listening to people who do."

Who the hell mentioned France?? America has enough laws of its own to live up to, and torturing prisoners, not allowing prisoners access to counsel & not following international treaties which are U.S. law under our system is illegal!

"Obama has closed Guantanamo and move terrorists into our country, for no good reason."

If you don't know by now why the Gitmo torture prison is a huge stain on the face of America, then there's simply no hope for you my friend.

"But you go left-wing. Tisk, use some right wing"

Facts are facts...learn the difference between biased opinion & real, verifiable facts.

"You insuate that I am right-wing"

...because you obviously are.

"Inhuman acts do not deserve human rights."

All humans have rights because they are human, period.

"They should be treated as POW's not regular prisoners"

POWs have rights too...ugh...

"You can't debate opinion"

Of course you can...with FACTS. Opinions that are not based on verifiable facts are worthless...just like yours are, moron.

Ignore the trolls, like "Kinda", as they have nothing useful to contribute, ever. :)

We already have games where the object is to kill as many people as possible. Why would a rape or sex game be out of the question??

Mmmmmm...trolls...so tasty to destroy at will...they have no useful concepts to say (just a lot of double-talk apparently), hence destruction is the only option for them.

Mmmmmm...trolls...so tasty to destroy at will...they have no useful concepts to say, hence destruction is the only option for them.

"There is no world hunger or serious lack of resources other than that created by man."

This is nonsensical double-talk. Humans need food...duh...no shit no one is going to be able to change that! The fact that many, many people in the world go without good nutrition is not a problem that can be simply wished away.

"Sure if you visit some city in Asia you will be taken aback by the number of people walking around - but again that is a man-made situation."

Again, more nonsensical double-talk. No shit people having more people is a part of the problem, but again, wishing this problem away with the back of your hand in not helpful at all.

"And no one there is starving either, other than that caused by man and politics"

Baloney...do some research on world hunger before you say something as silly as this.

1. Who ever originally proposed limiting the number of people that families could have either here or elsewhere in the world?? I don't remember reading that from anyone...that's a strawman argument.

2. The USA is not part of the population "problem" on the Earth...so basing solutions on what the USA "might" be able to do is just silly nonsense.

"colonizing the highlands" is a LOT harder than this guy makes it out to be. The extremes of weather at those altitudes is the real reason why people don't live up there currently. You're not going to be able to change that.

"providing energy for 100 billion people" is also no way near as simple as this guy tries to make it. Nuclear power is a dead end if for no other reason than the world will likely be running out of readily available uranium within the next century or less. Truly renewable energy, like the solar power that this guy only briefly mentions unfortunately, is really the only viable way to go in the long-term.

Providing enough food for the world, even today, is a struggle at best. Trying to do simple, pie-in-the-sky hand-waving to wish this problem away is not really useful at all.

I do completely agree with this statement though:

"when women are educated and contraceptives are made available to them, the birth rate plummets."

That's the kind of reform that we need to get if one is really concerned about "over-population".

This guys rarely has anything factual or useful to add to any discussion. He's also shown himself to be extremely selfish, so his nonsensical post here is to be expected.

"since i am aware that they are on display, why would i lie about lying?"

Ummmm, because you've also been proven to be about as ignorant on issue after issue as one person could be...ugh... Truly stupid people don't act logically, as your words & actions (continual lying for one) have shown.

1. Try & run away from all the Right-wing nonsense that you've obviously spouted in this & many other threads. It's not going to work!

"I give to charity... so i can't be greedy and selfish."

LOL...your tax dollars do a lot of the same things that your charity dollars do yanno.

"What, just because they make something a certain way we should just accept it?"

Look, once again, you & many others on the Right-wing would love to change the way that our system works so that only the things that you personally believe in can get "your tax dollars". For the last time, that's NOT how systems of taxation have EVER worked. Tax dollars are pooled together to do the things that our elected representatives feel is in the public good. If you don't like their decisions, then vote them out. That's our fundamental system of govt., and it's NOT going to change to fit your wild imagination.

"Unless you can provide evidence that Jefferson would promote the welfare program"

LOL...it's up to ME to prove that Jefferson was opposed to a welfare system that post-dates him by many, many, many decades?? Look, moron, you trying to claim that one of the Founders is on your side without ANY evidence to support your claims is YOUR problem, not mine!!

"Hundreds of thousands of people in America are on welfare?"

There were 5.5 million people on welfare by the end of 2000.

http://blog.cleveland.com/wideopen/2007/10/welfare_rolls_still_plunging_a.html

There were 1.6 million people on welfare as of September 2008.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124562449457235503.html#mod=rss_whats_news_us

"And what you're saying is that welfare deters crime?"

Since the so-called " welfare reform" of the mid-1990s, certain crime rates have been sliding upwards:

http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/glance/ reportingtype.cfm

"The real issue is that there are people who will trash America no matter what we do - so it is best to do what is in our own interests. And it is not in our best interests to have terrorists in the country when there is a viable location elsewhere."

The Gitmo torture prison was NOT setup in the first place to be a "viable location" to house so-called "dangerous" individuals. It was setup to be a location where the USA could claim that the facility could indefinitely detain any non-U.S.-citizen who was believed to be involved in international terrorism (no judge, no jury, no nothing). The Bush Justice Department even tried to declare that Gitmo was outside U.S. legal jurisdiction & that the "illegal enemy combatants" at Gitmo were not entitled to any of the protections of the Geneva Conventions. Of course, the U.S. Supreme Court had other things to say about those completely bogus decisions.

The fact is that the USA has held many, many actual terrorists (not accused terrorists mind you) in custody for quite some time without ANY of them escaping. Who's afraid of the big, bad wolf? Not I, and neither should you.

"It's different from EVERYONE taking the law into their own hands and EXCEPTIONAL cases."

And who is to decide who are these "EXCEPTIONAL cases"?? The angry mob with pitchforks in their hands that's yelling "String 'em up!"?? I don't think so troll...run along now...

"You've constantly argued about how even the guilty can also be innocent."

Ummmm...riiiight, when did I say that again?? Oh yea, it was never.

Look, it's pretty obvious from a lot of your posts & "conversations" that I've seen on here so far that you're just some troll that's looking to stir the pot for no apparent reason. If you want to openly laugh at the basic concepts that America has stood for, then great...but do it on your own time, troll.

The only thing that an Internet Troll is good for is ignoring. Run along now Mr. fake "Hindu" guy from the "United Kingdom"...

"you have presented ONE case of false execution."

Wrong again, there have been many, many, many more cases that that:

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines06/0921-08.htm

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/08/12/national/12DEAT.html

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/innocence-list-those-freed-death-row

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/additional-innocence-information#Released

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/executed-possibly-innocent

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/causes-wrongful-convictions

"Even if there has only been 1,196 people executed (which I find very unlikely)"

My numbers are correct GOPer...quit denying them!

http://www.tdcj.state.tx.us/stat/prefurman/all.htm

http://www.txexecutions.org/history.asp

You don't even appear to know the real reasons why TX has had so many executions:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/ shows/execution/readings/texas.html

LOL...why am I not surprised that you are undaunted by actual facts?? You've already stated above that the real facts of the matter will never change your mind on this issue. Give it up wing-nut...I'm DONE wasting my time with the ignorant likes of you.

"This is a notoriously sketchy study to begin with"

...in your own, completely biased opinion that is.

"I don't care where you got your information, there is no sure way to know."

Thanks for letting us know that the real facts of the issue at hand will ultimately mean nothing to you...so we're done here!

"It just shows that you can't believe the truth that contradicts you."

LMAO! Kettle, meet pot...pot, kettle...LOL...too funny...that irnony will, of course, go right over your head...

"You would have to have no heart and no brain to not torture someone to save your family"

...in your own warped mind that is.

"if you care about your family, why would you let them die?"

My family is not about to "die", moron. Try, just for once, to not make your political decisions from a position of fear, and you'll understand what I am talking about. The entire "ticking bomb scenario" that's going to kill you, your family, and millions of others is based on a LIE from a novel from the 1960s...wake the hell up...

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2007/ 02/19/070219fa_fact_mayer

"obviously its not a good long-term strategy, but the government hasn't been torturing people for that long of a period of time"

...as far as you know. I'm not at all naive enough to think that torture hasn't been done by members of the U.S. govt. (or our govt. hasn't spirited people away to countries that allow torture to take place) just in recent memory. Those incidents don't make torture any less illegal, and, as you've already said, it's not an effective long-term strategy, period end of story. Thanks for proving my point, moron.

"you are the one thats defending the terrorists! Im defending the people who torture the terrorists."

LOL...once again, thanks for proving my point. You are defending completely ILLEGAL acts. I am defending the human rights of everyone, period.

"If the government tortures a very select amount of people with ties to a terrorist organization, it doesnt mean that everybody is not safe."

And who, praytell, gets to decide who has "ties to a terrorist organization" or who doesn't?? The government that is doing the torturing in the first place, which is in blatant violation of it's OWN laws, that's who. The entire concept of the rule of law is not something to be tossed away just because a select few people, like you apparently, are afraid of the "boogeyman".

"it was banned because its inhumane, not because its not effective."

LOL...once again, thanks for proving my point, torture IS inhumane, as it goes against the very core of the meaning of human rights. Also, as I've shown you & others in this very thread, it's NOT an effective means of interrogation, hence the reason why the U.S. Army has banned its use long ago.

"obviously it does work"

...despite, of course, all the direct evidence that's been presented to the contrary, win-nut. Ramble on moron...your words truly have no meaning.

"i just finished saying that using torture dozens upon dozens of times works?"

LOL...no, you just finished saying over & over (including above!) that "obviously torture works"...don't try running away from the FACT, liar!

"it was a mistake. They weren't lying."

Sure, sure, and the fact that they were many, many people saying at the time that Iraq had no WMDs & that they had no ties at all with Al-Qaeda or 9/11 was just a coincidence...MORON!

"you never quoted a report filed by the Bush Administration relating to this."

Of course I did, and I even quoted Bush Regime officials that have said the same thing. The fact that you can't bring yourself to admit that you're wrong on this issue means nothing to me.

"when did you prove that i lied?"

LOL...run away liar...run away...it's not working...

"When can i expect the actual end of the story?"

Right now, since you've been completely & thoroughly schooled on this issue, once again, moron. We're DONE talking about it now. You can ramble on & on, but you'll be wasting your time, not mine.

"why would we detain people who we know are innocent?"

That question was answered by me days & days ago, but you'll never admit to that, liar.

"1. Not a right-winger"

Oh yea, you're an "Independent"...with a Nazi icon over a gay pride flag...please...

"I believe they shouldn't."

Of course you don't, since you're simply greedy & selfish, period.

"why do you attack my view points by saying 'you don't get to choose'."

Because that's the REAL issue here, moron! In our system of govt., like it or not, we do NOT get to directly choose how ANY of our tax dollars is used, period!

"The fact that welfare is implemented by the government would upset Jefferson"

...in your own, wild imagination that is.

"Since welfare is a government enacted program that benefits few, it is not seen as a Civil NECESSITY"

...again, in your own biased opinion. The reality is that if some form of welfare didn't exist, then there would be hundreds of thousands of people with absolutely no way to readily support themselves without having to resort to dangerous things, like turn to crime, which effects everyone...either directly or indirectly. That's why some form of welfare is in the public's best interest.

Now, you'll never agree to any of the above, but that won't change the reality of the way things really are. So ramble on wing-nut...I'm DONE wasting my time educating your sorry ass...

"i was definitely telling the truth there"

...in your wildest dreams that is. Your blatant lies are on full display there for all to see, liar.

"I dont see a beat down going on"

...because you are blind to it, which makes it that much more funny...lol...

"If the president is violating 'the Constitution of the United States' then he is a domestic enemy."

Really?? Then why didn't the military take up arms against your buddy GWB?? Illegal torture...wars for no good reason...I could go on & on. The reason? Because that's not the way our system works. The military exists to take orders, not to give them.

As for being dense, you take the cake there Joe...sheesh...

This is one of the most moronic things that you've uttered on here so far, and that's quite an accomplishment for you! I really can't believe that you actually believe some of the things that you type here sometimes. Really, no one is that dumb.

"I hear statements not reasons."

Because you're simply not listening, period. If everyone could take the law into their own hands, then America would become a free-for-all. One could be executed for the most minor thing, like being a moron, like you!

"Isn't that what I JUST SAID?"

No, in fact, you said the exact opposite. All you know about the Old West is from movies...your words, not mine.

"According to you you can never actually know if anybody is ever guilty."

Really?? When did I ever say that? Oh yea, it was never.

"In your book every criminal is potentially an innocent."

LOL...no, moron, in our system of justice, everyone is innocent until proven guilty. When you rant against that concept, you rant against a very basic concept that is at the core of what makes America a great nation.

This is just more silly nonsense from you. Do you EVER take anything seriously?? There isn't going to be a shooting war in this country...now stop spreading more fear.

"Keep in mind that during the last days, Bush Jr. was considering having soldiers protecting the white house."

It's not surprising the GWB was really a coward in the end. His public statements & reactions to that crisis were pitifull. He looked like a scared lil bunny to me.

"Obama has talked about a civil army.... why?"

It's not an "army" at all...just a bunch of volunteers to help out their communities.

"How old are you?"

Probably older than you kiddo.

"The media is to keep people informed and the government in check?"

Yes, the press is what's called the Fourth Estate.

"While all that are enlisted in any armed service, they are sworn to uphold and obey the Constitution of the United States"

...and to follow the lawful orders of their civilian leadership, period.

Agree & well-stated. This group of Right-wing wackos really poses no threat to anyone. They are waaay too small a group to do anything. Most of them will probably just end up in a militia group, like McVeigh & we all know how THAT turned out!

...which are provided for in the U.S. Constitution, period.

This is a ridiculous "argument". These wackos look extremist because they are a very small, Right-wing, extreme group, period.

"The military should specifically spell out what constitutes a lawful order and what does not in order to keep the government in check."

That's already been done in many military manuals. "Illegal" orders should not be followed at all. All soldiers should know that by now.

"So, killing innocent Americans results in American rights?"

LOL...the concept is, moron, guilty until proven innocent. It's one of the basis of the founding our our nation BTW.

"COUGH IRAN NUCLEAR PROGRAM COUGH If you respond to this and nothing else"

LOL...you mean the completely & totally inflated uranium enrichment program in Iran?? That red herring?? LOL...please...

"But on another note, don't you know Chinese interrogation methods?"

Yes, I do know of them, and the North Koreans as well, since that's what the failed torture program down at the Gitmo torture prison was based on, moron.

"http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/02/us/02detain.html"

From your very own link:

"What the trainers did not say, and may not have known, was that their chart had been copied verbatim from a 1957 Air Force study of Chinese Communist techniques used during the Korean War to obtain confessions, many of them false, from American prisoners."

"The 1957 article from which the chart was copied was entitled 'Communist Attempts to Elicit False Confessions From Air Force Prisoners of War' and written by Albert D. Biderman, a sociologist then working for the Air Force, who died in 2003."

"In 2002, the training program, known as SERE, for Survival, Evasion, Resistance, Escape, became a source of interrogation methods both for the C.I.A. and the military. In what critics describe as a remarkable case of historical amnesia, officials who drew on the SERE program appear to have been unaware that it had been created as a result of concern about false confessions by American prisoners."

"'What makes this document doubly stunning is that these were techniques to get false confessions,' Mr. Levin said. 'People say we need intelligence, and we do. But we don’t need false intelligence.'"

You've successfully proven my point very nicely...that torture is NOT an effective way of interrogating people, period end of story.

"Waterboarding is indeed torture, I never said it wasn't, but torture in this case, is rational, according to SIMPLE laws. Self Defense, we defend the country with it."

Wrong again wing-nut. As I've pointed out to you numerous times now, torture is illegal under both U.S. AND International Law, and there are NO exceptions to this prohibition.

"http://edition.cnn.com/2003/LAW/03/03/cnna.Dershowitz/"

Alan Dershowitz is a well-known appologist for the Right-wing. His opinions mean nothing to me.

However, from that link as well:

"The prohibition on torture is one of the basic, absolute prohibitions that exists in international law. It exists in time of peace as well as in time of war. It exists regardless of the severity of a security threat."

"there is no moral or legal difference between torturing yourself and subcontracting torture to somebody else. They're equally absolutely prohibited."

Once again, you back up my point that there are ZERO, legal exceptions to when someone can be tortured, period.

"http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address;=364x1845902#1846001

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address;=364x1845902#1846142"

These links don't exist.

"http://www.thenation.com/doc/20050530/klein"

Naomi Klien is simply stating that torture's true purpose is "to terrorize--not only the people in Guantánamo's cages and Syria's isolation cells but also, and more important, the broader community that hears about these abuses." She simply states that it's a means not to get information from people, but to scare people into submission. This is NOT the American way!

Also from the same link:

"No one claims that torture is an effective interrogation tool--least of all the people who practice it. Torture 'doesn't work. There are better ways to deal with captives,' CIA director Porter Goss told the Senate Intelligence Committee on February 16. And a recently declassified memo written by an FBI official in Guantánamo states that extreme coercion produced 'nothing more than what FBI got using simple investigative techniques.' The Army's own interrogation field manual states that force 'can induce the source to say whatever he thinks the interrogator wants to hear.'"

Again, thanks so much for proving all of my points, moron.

"http://www.thefirstpost.co.uk/34645,news-comment,news-politics,legalising-torture-would-make-it-more-effective"

Another Right-wing opinion piece being passed off as "fact"...ugh...learn to know the difference between stating FACTS & merely unsupported opinions, moron.

"Links that prove you wrong, by the way."

No, they really don't, moron. Your links support my claims! As a result, we are now DONE talking about this issue. You've done an EXCELLENT job showing how righteous my positions on torture have been. Thank you! :)

"No.They shouldn't. Especially if they get citzens rights. Why do they deserve them?"

They deserve HUMAN rights...just like all humans get...simply because they are human. Why are you Right-wing morons afraid of actual terrorists being actually, legally held responsible for their terrorist acts??

"You have no proof of that, 'moron'."

LOL...it time to get schooled again, moron:

"Supermax Prisons in U.S. Already Hold Terrorists"

"Detained in the supermax facility in Colorado are Ramzi Yousef, who headed the group that carried out the first bombing of the World Trade Center in February 1993; Zacarias Moussaoui, convicted of conspiring in the terrorist attacks of Sept. 11, 2001; Ahmed Ressam, of the Dec. 31, 1999, Los Angeles airport millennium attack plots; Ahmed Omar Abu Ali, conspirator in several plots, including one to assassinate President George W. Bush; and Wadih el-Hage, convicted of the 1998 bombing of the U.S. Embassy in Kenya."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/05/21/AR2009052102009.html

Also held at ADX Florence:

-Abdul Hakim Murad, of al-Qaeda's Operation Bojinka

-Mahmud Abouhalima, of the 1993 World Trade Center bombing

-Ahmed Ajaj, of the 1993 World Trade Center bombing

-Nidal Ayyad, of the 1993 World Trade Center bombing

-Iyman Faris, also of the NYC landmark plot, sentenced to 20 years in 2003

-Matthew F. Hale, 15177-424, white supremacist for soliciting the murder of federal judge Joan Lefkow

-Clement Rodney Hampton-El, a.k.a. Dr. Rashid, convicted in the 1993 World Trade Center bombing

-Eyad Ismail, 37802-054, of the 1993 World Trade Center bombing

-Mohammed Mansour Jabarah, a Canadian convicted of terrorism-related offences

-Theodore Kaczynski, 04475-046, the "Unabomber"

-John Walker Lindh, dubbed "The American Taliban"

-Tom Manning, political serial bomber, has been transferred to USP Hazelton

-Khalfan Khamis Mohamed, participant in the 1998 United States embassy bombings

-Mohamed Rashed Daoud Al-Owhali, of the 1998 U.S. embassy bombings

-Mohammed Ali Hassan Al-Moayad, would-be financier of al-Qaeda and Hamas, serving 75 years

-Dandeny Muñoz Mosquera, chief assassin for Pablo Escobar, responsible for the bombing of Avianca Flight 203

-Terry Nichols, 08157-031, Oklahoma City bombing conspirator

-El Sayyid Nosair, of the 1993 World Trade Center bombing.

-Mohammed Odeh is one of the four former al-Qaeda members sentenced to life imprisonment in 2001 for their parts in the 1998 United States embassy bombings.

-Richard Reid, 24079-038, al-Qaeda's would-be "Shoe Bomber"

-Oscar Rivera, leader of the Armed Forces of National Liberation, a Puerto Rican militant group, for bombing 28 targets in the Chicago area. Received an additional 15-year sentence for an escape attempt (from another prison).

-Eric Robert Rudolph, 18282-058, terrorist, committed the Centennial Olympic Park bombing and other bombings

-Mohammed A. Salameh, of the 1993 World Trade Center bombing

-James Ujaama, who tried to develop an al-Qaeda camp in Oregon

-Wali Khan Amin Shah, convicted on charges stemming from Operation Bojinka

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/04/AR2006050401902_pf.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1535863/Held-in-darkness-for-the-rest-of-his-natural-life.html

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1555145-1,00.html

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/10/11/60minutes/main3357727.shtml

http://www.ktvu.com/news/11751657/detail.html

http://www.bop.gov/iloc2/InmateFinderServlet?Transaction=IDSearch&IDType;=IRN&IDNumber;=37802-054

"SuperMax Illinois Prison to Soon Hold Gitmo Detainees"

http://chattahbox.com/us/2009/12/15/supermax-illinois-prison-to-soon-hold-gitmo-detainees/

"But, prisoners have escaped from prison!"

Not terrorist prisoners. It's NEVER happened, period.

"I meant to say Camp Douglas"

...for which you have exactly ZERO information, period.

"Biased news is not proof."

LOL...yea, right, and facts aren't facts...sure, sure...moron.

"He's what he would call, 'butthurt and pwned'"

...i your wildest dreams that is, moron...lol...

"You posted NY Times and Washington Post links. Liberal papers"

...with actual, verifiable FACTS in them, wing-nut. Try & refute them...hint: You can't! LMAO!

"He can't defend his family?"

LOL...strawman argument...

"So, torture, as long as you are defending yourself or another, i.e. the COUNTRY, its perfectly legal, if you want to go in a techincality(yeah, i know its spelled wrong), Gitmo torture was perfectly legal, because we were defending our country."

Wrong again wing-nut. There are ZERO exceptions to when torture can be used both according to U.S. AND International Law, period.

"Toture does work, the Iraqi's would know, Operation Desert Storm, the British were tortured."

"Also, Camp Douglas, torture was used to get info and soldiers"

You have exactly ZERO sources for these lies my friend. Whether people were tortured or not is the REAL issue here. Torture is illegal & there are NO exceptions. Torture is NOT recommended as a viable way to interrogate people under the Army Field Manual because it has be proven again & again that torturing someone gives you the WRONG answers in the long-run, period.

"You have no un-biased proof of that."

Of course I do, and I've already cited it in this very thread! We got ZERO useful information from Zubaydah even though he was tortured!

"You have no un-biased proof of that."

LOL...once again, I've already posted my evidence of this...lol...try reading it, moron.

"Still blaming Bush for everything, huh?"

LOL...what a moron you really are..."personal responsibility"...those words are just that, meaningless words to GOPers like you...lol...

"You disgrace the democrats"

...and YOU disgrace America with your blatant support for ILLEGAL torture!

"when you set forth proven facts, come back to me with this comment."

You don't have ANY facts to bring to table, moron. All you apparently have is Right-wing spin from far Right-wing websites.

"You know you would torture the person."

No, I simply don't...it's called following the law!!

"its funny, you care about what happens to him, but you don't care about what happens to your family."

LOL...you are setting of a HUGE strawman argument here, and, BTW, it's not working...lol... I've already clearly stated why our govt. illegally torturing anyone is NOT a sound long-term strategy at all. The fact that you want to continue to try to defend the indefensible is just a stain on you, not me.

"now you are just jumping to conclusions."

No, I'm simply taking your position out to its logical conclusion, and you don't like it, which is tough, moron.

"experts are basically not in universal agreement"

OF COURSE there are, that's one of the main reasons why torture was banned Internationally in the first place...because it doesn't work!!

"after a certain amount of time that's probably the case."

No, it's been show again & again that it's true in almost ALL cases...that's why it's not a recommended interrogation technique in the Army Field Manual, moron.

"i have never said that it works."

LOL...you just finished saying that it works...LIAR!

"this comes from former CIA director George Tenet: Abu Zubaydah had been at the crossroads of many al-Qa'ida operations and was in position to - and did - share critical information with his interrogators."

LMAO! George Tenet is a proven liar my friend...remember the "slam dunk" intelligence that Iraq had WMDs & links to Al-Qaeda?? Of course you don't...I'll even bet that you'll argue in response that Iraq "did" have WMDs before we invaded in 2003 (which has been proven false) and that they did have links to 9/11 & Al-Qaeda (which has also been proven false). What you are "quoting" from is the misinterpretation that the Bush Regime had about Zubaydah originally. What I have quoted from is their final analysis of him, which is that he didn't have anywhere near the knowledge that they originally thought that he had, period.

"i dont understand how you think that i am lying or how you even came to the conclusion that i am lying."

Obfuscating the issues will NOT help you out here sirius...you are a PROVEN LIAR right here in this (and other) thread, period end of story.

"Are you in like eighth grade or something?"

You wish, moron.

"I, (NAME), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States"

That's EXACTLY what I am talking about...thanks, once again, for proving my point!

"It's their job to DEFEND THE CONSTITUTION"

...and to follow the orders of the civilian government, period.

"I, (NAME), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States"

Thanks for proving my point, moron.

I've VERY aware of the so-called "Oath Keepers", and they are an extremely small portion of the military at best.

"French Revoltion and American Revoltion proved that wrong!"

No, it really didn't. We only won the American Revolution with the help of another country's fleet, France.

"And since our military is huge, I'm afraid a few idiots in the white house don't match up to the MILLIONS in the military."

The military follws the orders of the civilian government, period.

"The politicians. If they want to give welfare to poor people, they can do it out of their own pockets. Just not with tax dollars (which is partly mine)."

Says who...you?? Please, we live in a representative democracy or a republic as you Right-wingers like to refer to it, and we do NOT get to decide how all of our tax dollars are spent, period!

"There are practical things like defense which the government is supposed to give us and then there are things that only a few benefit from, like welfare, which is, according to Thomas Jefferson, tyrannical."

Jefferson never said that "welfare was tyrannical", moron. Give it up...

"im not sure what i lied about but okay."

LOL...you were wrong about this, moron:

"You are sheer and utter nonsense that has been completely debunked in another thread."

And the relentless beat-down continues... :)

LMAO! What a complete & utter liar you really are! For the REAL facts on the completely bogus, Right-wing claim that sirius continues to make, despite being utterly schooled to the contrary, see here:

http://www.createdebate.com/debate/show/Do_you_think_it_was_a_good_idea_to_make_ the_mini_Gitmo_in_Illinois#arg78901

You LOSE again moron!

"you didn't have to say it. Its just that you say something about me being a republican when you disagree with me."

Not always I don't. It's just completely & totally obvious that you are willing to shill for your beloved GOP no matter what the facts are.

"you wouldn't torture someone to save your family because its against the law?"

No, it's called following the law...you should try it sometime, moron.

"why do you care what happens to him?"

Because what happens to him can happen to you or I or anyone else. When our govt. willfully violates both U.S. and International Law, no one is really safe.

"i doubt it."

LOL...of course you do, since you've demonstrated that you don't know the first thing about this entire issue!

"Inflicting pain and fear on someone is definitely the best way to get something you want from them."

No, it really isn't. Experts are in basically universal agreement that torturing people just causes people to try & give the answers that they think their torturers want, period.

"that is another issue."

No, it's EXACTLY the issue that we're talking about! What we were originally told about these "enhanced interrogation techniques" (AKA completely illegal torture) was that as soon as someone was waterboarded that they spilled all their beans. However, the TRUTH is that this was a complete & total lie. You don't use a failed torture technique literally dozens & dozens of time on the exact same person because it "works", moron.

"there is no reason for me to lie here."

Of course there is, moron. You are trying, unsuccessfully BTW, to spin the Right-wing tale that torturing people "saved lives", which has been completely & totally disproven, period end of story.

"he still had crucial information."

No, he had NO useful information, and this is according the officials records of what the Bush Regime has already said about him!

"nobody said he knew nothing on that."

LOL...liar...what does this mean then:

"it was Abu Zubaydah that we got the information from"

You really are a BOLD-FACED LIAR sirius...I dunno how you think that you're going to get away with that nonsense here either. The gig is up moron.

"i never lost in the first place. You are going to have to do more than tell me im a stupid republican in order to actually 'win' against me"

...which is exactly what I've already done, moron, since I've successfully refuted ever, single lie that you've told in this thread, period end of story. The continued fact that you can't even realize it is all that more satisfying at this end...lol!

"Killing babies is basically the same."

No, it isn't, period.

"I was saying its not smart to put prisoners in America, becuase the guards would want to kill them, like they did in Gitmo"

First of all, as I've already pointed out to you moron, the USA already has many, many terrorists in its prison system. Secondly, who ever said that guards were killing Gitmo detanees??

"Where's yours?"

It's in the many responses that I've already given in this very thread, moron.

"They don't deserve this country if they want to destroy it."

This makes no sense whatsoever. These people apparently perpetrated crimes against the USA, and they should be tried in the USA as a result.

'Because they were in.....guess what.....ANOTHER COUNTRY."

Wrong again moron. The USA has had dozens & dozens of terrorists safely in custody in prisons right here in the USA with ZERO escapes, period.

No, I simply know that the military follows orders, because it's their job to do so, period.

"What I'm actually saying is that it's okay if they use their own money, just not mine"

...which you're simply not allowed to do, period.

"obviously we must fund things like the military and police force, because we can't regulate who gets treated by that."

Hey, if I had my choice, which I don't...just like you don't, I wouldn't fund the "defense" budget one bit, since it's waaaay too big IMHO. That's NOT the way our system works though!

I don't think so. As I've stated before, a few armed wing-nuts are no match for the power of the federal government.

Ugh...we do not get to pick & choose how are tax dollars are used, period.

This is well-written & thought out. I agree completely. Nice job!

This is sheer & utter nonsense that has been completely debunked in another thread.

This is just an empty, Right-wing threat that really is meaningless...ugh...

"also i dont think they should be held in prison for years after the trial because they are going to be killed so we might as well kill them soon so we dont have to pay for them with our taxes.. (our taxes pay for prisons)"

It's already been proven that non-death penalty cases end up costing much less than death penalty cases, and this includes the cost of incarceration.

"I think that it is possible to exonerate people after they have been tried and been convicted as guilty. I think that even though it never happens, it can"

...and it already has happened...many, many times.

"A lot of people are unhappy about the law system. Even after being proved guilty the person has so many chances of appeal they either get their sentence lowered or become free altogether."

Nonsense. Either one believes in our system of justice or not. One CANNOT take the law into ones own hands!

"People also feel vengeance is more appropriate than justice."

Thanks for admitting that what you are arguing for is vengeance, NOT justice.

"It's not criminal."

Yes, it is...you can't just kill somebody because you "think" that he's guilty...that's murder.

"I only know the old west from movies and most the time it wasn't like this."

Get a grip on reality...movies are not history.

"Is internet addiction a legitimate psychological disorder?"

Yes, just ask any psychologist. It can manifest itself in many forms...some even branch out from sex addiction.

More sheer & utter nonsense. I've already proven that gun registration of all kinds happens at both the state & federal level, and it's totally Constitutional. Checkmate!

"You DO NOT need a license to own a gun"

Wrong again. Fully automatic firearms of any kind (including military assault rifles) have been subject to requirements for registration by owners & licensing of dealers since the passage of the National Firearms Act in 1934. Also, AZ, CT, HI, MI, NV, NY, and NC currently all have some form of registration process for guns.

Before you happen to get all uppity about this, all of these laws are totally Constitutional:

http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2009/08/19/taking_liberties/entry5253857.shtml

http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2009/08/21/ taking_liberties/entry5258192.shtml

Checkmate confirmed! :)

This is NOT a game my friend. Quit treating it like it is. These are serious issues that require serious people discussing them.

"You must be a terrorist, this isnt a laughing matter."

No, I'm not "a terrorist", and I do think that the lame-ass Right-wing blather that tries to justify illegally torturing people is a complete & total joke.

"it was the UN that established INTERNATIONAL LAW"

...and who belongs to the UN?? Please...nothing officially happens in the UN without the explicit support of the USA, period.

"August, 2001, an American spy plane crashes with a chinese fighter, killing a Chinese crewman, resulting in the arrest and beating of 10 American crewman."

No such "beatings" occurred at all in this incident. In fact, the U.S. prisoners were treated well in general, with the exception of being interrogated at all hours...which led to some lack of sleep. The disassembled EP-3 was released by China on July 3, 2001, and was returned to the USA, where it was eventually reassembled & returned to duty.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/1341332.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/1380725.stm

You simply do not know what you're talking about, period end of story.

"Civil War, Camp Douglas, blacks were often shot on SIGHT."

What does that have to do with this discussion?? You are quoting points of history where the law was explicitly violated!

"Genova was load of bull and you know it. Nobody really wanted it."

This is sheer & utter nonsense, period.

"Hmmm..... 911, quite a few babies, children, and pregnant women died"

LOL...thanks for admitting that no one at Gitmo has been accused of "stuffing bombs into babies and throwing them at soldiers", period end of story.

"At least I offer proof."

No, you really don't.

"Have the trial somewhere else."

Why?? NYC is one of the scenes of the crime!

"What if they can plot and execute their escape?"

This is just blind fear-mongering. No terrorist has ever escaped from U.S. custody, period.

"anything or anyone that you disagree with has some kind of right-wing radical ideas"

...which is something that I've never said, period. Nice try at dodging the real issue here...it's not working BTW.

"you wouldn't torture someone to save a thousand people?"

No, since torturing someone is against both U.S. AND International Law...there are NO exceptions under the law!

"yeah it really is so horrible to torture the man who is responsible for the death of thousands of innocent Americans."

LOL...nice feeble attempt to justify violating both U.S. and International law, wing-nut.

"Could he not have had more information?"

Sure, and there are completely legal and much more effective ways at getting that info. Waterboarding someone for hundreds of times is obviously not effective.

"sorry i made a mistake"

No, you & your Right-wing cohorts have intentionally LIED about this issue over & over again.

"it was Abu Zubaydah that we got the information from"

LOL...nice try again liar, but that isn't true at all either.

"President George W. Bush described Abu Zubaida in 2002 as 'al-Qaeda's chief of operations.' Intelligence, military and law enforcement sources told The Washington Post this year that officials later concluded he was a Pakistan-based 'fixer' for radical Islamist ideologues, but not a formal member of al-Qaeda, much less one of its leaders."

Zubaida knew NOTHING about the previously mentioned LA plot, and he was tortured at least 83 times for absolutely, positively nothing, period end of story.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/06/15/AR2009061503045.html

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/ cifamerica/2009/mar/30/guantanamo-abu-zubaydah-torture

"if i am always dead wrong then why do even bother talking to me?"

Because pwning you is just so much fun, moron...lol...you lose, again...

"CNSNews" is just another Right-wing sock puppet, and torture is NOT allowed under ANY circumstances, period.

Also, the waterboarding of KSM was so "effectual" that they needed to do it 183 times in one month!

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/20/world/ 20detain.html?_r=1

BTW, KSM was captured & waterboarded in March 2003, and the LA plot was foiled in February 2002, moron...lol...

http://www.slate.com/id/2216601/

Once again, you're dead WRONG on everything that you claim...just like always apparently...ugh...

Hmmm, then I guess owning a gun is not a "right", since one usually needs to own a license or a permit to own one...lol...checkmate...

...that Al-Qaeda & their allies the Taliban started in 2001 when they attacked us. All Obama is trying to do is clean up the mess that GWB left us all.

"I think that obama wont win year 2012 because there are a lot of people that were really angry with the outcome"

...which were in the minority of people that voted for McSame.

"and with more teens become the age to vote"

Where's the evidence that "teens" are anti-Obama?? I think it's quite the opposite.

"Unless the candidates are even stupider then him"

You mean like Palin...lol...

To suggest that the Dems won't nominate their own President to run in 2012 is simply ridiculous!

Nice lack of an "argument" there wing-nut...ugh...what a joke...

"He's done nothing to help this country"

...except turn America's economy around from the brink of a depression.

"I believe he told everyone, when he's president, he'll take ALL of the troops out of the Middle East"

Obama never said this at all. Under his leadership, we are going to be withdrawing the vast majority of our troops from Iraq next year & increasing our troop presence in Afghanistan, just like he said he would do during the 2008 campaign.

"But the United States is still going deeper in debt"

...due mostly to the mismanagement of GOP Presidents of the past.

"We need someone who can stand up to Economic Crisis"

...which Obama has done pretty successfully so far. The American economy is starting to turn around under his leadership.

Palin has successfully killed off her chances of winning any higher office. She's a proven quitter. When the going gets tough, the tough don't quit.

"But when they feel outraged when something happened to someone close to them is it justified?"

"when something outrageous happens within your community.. should people do something (often illegal) about it?"

Justice must be passed down dispassionately in order to truly be fair. Mob "justice" is just vengeance, not real justice.

This does not mean that one should decide right then & there what the proper punishment for that action should be. We have a justice system to decide that.

"we're definately better than criminals"

Says who?? You who are willing to single-handedly judge someone to be "guilty" without a trial.

"it will not degenerate into a wild west situation or civil-less society."

The situation that you are describing is EXACTLY the way things were in the Old West. We've moved on from that relatively lawless time yanno.

"I've heard of communities who've mobbed up and nearly killed paedophiles and rapists. Is this form of communal justice acceptable?"

No, in our society, one is innocent until proven guilty...not the other way around.

"Are there cases where people should be allowed to dish out their own justice?"

No. When this kind of thing happens, it's more about vengeance than justice. This isn't the Old West anymore.