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A Question(s) to Non-Theists.
Let us first assume the premise that a god exists. Forget any perceived exisential impossibilities, ramifications, and/or paradoxes of such a notion. This is the subject of an entirely different debate that has been done so many times already.
Assuming this, which religion, in your perhaps completely subjective opinion, is the "best" interepreation of the reality of a god's existence? Which do you most agree with?
What do you believe the nature of such a god would be/which religion's interpreatation would you be most in agreement with?
Buddhism. All other religions consist of worshiping an all powerful being, an all vengeful, wrathful being. All the other religions ( Judaism, Muslim, Christian e.t.c.) are based on the principals of " base your life to this ultimate being, or you will suffer for all eternity! Not only that, but people are willing to go to war over their beliefs. I don't recall reading in the history books about the Buddhists fighting the Arabs for land or anything else. Just to note, I wouldn't follow any of them , be there a God or not! I am just saying if I were forced to I would embrace Buddhism.
At first thought, I think this question is a good one. But the only thing I can come up with an analogy to try to explain why I feel I can't answer that question. It would be like:
Let's just pretend vampires exist, but ignore all the preconceptions of vampires for a moment that would be in conflict with this. Now, what do you really think vampires are like then?
I would hope your answer is something like “Well how am I suppose to judge what this being is without knowing anything about it?“. I guess the only things you can judge is what couldn't be (or by default, be) because of logical conflict.
So in that regard, I would imagine that this deity didn't create the universe otherwise their incompetent, and is not all powerful or just doesn't care.
Maybe you can look at the question in a different way, like aside from your disbelief in a deity, which religion most closely matched your own perspectives and beliefs on morals and the world?
Well that'd probably be what “religion” I am. I've refrained from saying it simply because it's never been relevant to a debate before and some immature debaters that I've discussed with (previous to this site) have attempted to use a label, like religion, against me, as if being it made my arguments invalid. :)
I have never found a religion that I felt suited me well enough to call my own. Eventually I settled with (Atheistic) Eclectic Paganism, which mine constitutes more philosophy or love of something than it does religion.
Well, not every religion makes any judgment about the existence of a god. If we are talking about religion than I'd choose Buddhism without at doubt.
That's almost cheating, I could become Buddhist today and remain as atheist as ever.
If there must be a god than I would still be a non-practicing Buddhist and just kind of ignore him unless he deigned to make himself known to humanity in some definitive way.
That's because Buddhism has two main aspects - one as a religion, and one as a philosophy of life.
To be a philosophical buddhist is not to be theistic, it would be like saying 'I'm a Christian because I follow the message of Jesus'. It seems somewhat illogical to me to refer to this as a 'religion', as religion implies the following of a higher power.
Satan encourages violence, death, conflict, etc. He doesn't care about what's right and not right. He has no remorse for his actions. Sure, you don't have to worship him, but I don't think he encourages people to grow and live their life the "moral" way.
God doesn't condone violence, death or conflict. Why would He do that? O.o It's mankind who does that, and then blames God because He's so blame-able and all.
Also, I wasn't talking about God, I was talking about Satan. If you were trying to be sarcastic, then you lost me.
See, I haven't read the bible and even I know he does.
Perhaps in the Old Testament, which is completely different from the New Testament and current days, so just because God did x and y then, does not mean He still does now.
You know the word sadism and what that means? As to "why?" then that word tends to pop up whenever I think about "why".
I had to look up what sadism meant, but God is not deliberately cruel. I'll admit to not having read the entire Bible yet, but in the past if He was cruel, it was because people had sinned against Him. During that time, the punishment of sin was death so He was "obliged" to follow through with the law He made. Nowadays, God doesn't do that. That's Satan.
To blame someone that someone has to first exist. So no, not blamable at all.
He does exist, so yes, very much blamable.
I know that, it's just that all you said applies perfectly to god.
You must be thinking of a different god. It is easy to confuse them, there are so many after all. However, I'm talking about my God.
...Have you even read the Bible? Or stepped outside your house?
I said in another debate, that starving children is proof that god is either evil or non-existent.
This means god is STILL evil, letting children starve to death. Or that he doesn't exist.
There is direct proof in your Bible that your god was EVIL in the past as well. Not just now, but even waaay back then, according to the myths of your bible, god was ordering genocide, penis mutilation, human sacrifice with Abraham and Isaac (testing faith...? Why?) and animal sacrifice. Not only that, but the actions of god HIMSELF, in your bible indicate that a being who creates eden, AND a fucking TREE OF EVIL (knowledge or life?) and being an ALL KNOWING god, KNOWS that his creation will eat from it FROM THE BEGINNING, thus putting into order FLOODING AND DROWNING ALL PEOPLE TO DEATH because he doesn't like what they do. It also means SENDING HORRIBLE PLAGUES UPON EGYPTIANS. Because they had a culture that involved slavery.
(But God also seems to find slavery fine, giving instructions on how to SELL YOUR FUCKING DAUGHTER AS A SLAVE, and other instructions on how to TREAT SLAVES)
Your bible is evil, your god is evil, Jesus was a whore and your entire religion is stupid. From the pitiful "waaah, it's different in the new testament" to the very fact that it's NOT different, you look like a child trying to support a lie with more and more lies, each one piling on the other until it comes collapsing down, like the poor tower of babel, where all mankind was said to be in peace and work together- before your wicked god confused them and caused war and strife and pain and division among people.
It is a sick religion.
We are lucky your god isn't real, or else this world would be far worse than it is.
I said in another debate, that starving children is proof that god is either evil or non-existent.
Starving children is proof that the world lives in inequality. Did God create that? No. Humans did. Just like humans created racism, sexism, and all the isms in the entire world.
Your bible is evil, your god is evil, Jesus was a whore and your entire religion is stupid.
That is an incredibly childish statement, and quite disrespectful as well.
you look like a child trying to support a lie with more and more lies
To me what I'm saying isn't a lie, but the truth. So, I feel like I'm justifying my religion in the best way I can, but if that's not good enough for you, that doesn't make what I'm saying a lie.
We are lucky your god isn't real, or else this world would be far worse than it is.
Actually, the world is wallowing in a pit of despair. Don't you watch the news? I rarely see anything positive being said. All I hear is conflict, riots, violence. My God is real, and He does help people by using pastors and preachers all around the world.
He did not create humans with inequality. He created humans. Done. Humans did the rest. As for different races? I actually wonder myself how we got such a diverse culture... But even if God did create different cultures, that doesn't mean He created them so people would discriminate each other.
Starving children is proof that the world lives in inequality.
Ok. And if God was good and powerful, he could change that so little children didn't have to suffer.
That is an incredibly childish statement, and quite disrespectful as well.
Am I going to hell for not worshipping your god? If yes, then your mother is also a whore.
To me what I'm saying isn't a lie, but the truth.
Have you ever walked through an insane asylum?
Actually, the world is wallowing in a pit of despair.
There is less war, hunger and suffering than EVER before, and it's thanks to science, learning, knowledge and technology. NOT religion. In fact, it is religion who is making it worse. Religion doesn't cure disease. Science and medicine do. Religion doesn't help feed people. Science and advanced food production techniques do. Religion doesn't help the poor, or there wouldn't still be poor people dying of hunger.
Your god is just a fairy tale.
Mhm. So you say.
Your god is worse than a fairy tale.
It's an utter lie designed to control people and oppress them, while justifying war, but maintaining the face that it's for peace and love, while dividing nations and cultures, threatening anyone who disagrees with hell or social isolation and is generally harmful to all people.
You know why I debate against religion?
It's not to get to heaven.
It's not to meaninglessly attack people's beliefs.
It's not for profit, like those rich pastors and priests do.
Ok. And if God was good and powerful, he could change that so little children didn't have to suffer.
Sure. However, that's not the case and there must be a reason for it.
Am I going to hell for not worshipping your god? If yes, then your mother is also a whore.
I'll pray for you not to go to hell. You know not what you say.
Have you ever walked through an insane asylum?
No. But I am not like them.
There is less war, hunger and suffering than EVER before, and it's thanks to science, learning, knowledge and technology. NOT religion. In fact, it is religion who is making it worse. Religion doesn't cure disease. Science and medicine do. Religion doesn't help feed people. Science and advanced food production techniques do. Religion doesn't help the poor, or there wouldn't still be poor people dying of hunger.
Science and medicine is all great and all, but it cannot match God's power. Especially because this so called amazing medicine can't even cure every diseases there is, for example cancer, and HIV/Aids. Science and all it's developing is actually what makes people poor, and others rich. Because the more stuff we create, and the more developed we become, there are still going to be those people who won't be able to experience or afford that, and they will end up becoming poorer and poorer. I wish people weren't dying of hunger, but they are, and there are so many reasons why, all of them due to what man did. If we wanted, we could have stopped this huge gap between the wealthy and the poor ages ago, but we didn't, and now it has reached this critical state. Don't single out religion for something that was caused by a lot of other aspects.
threatening anyone who disagrees with hell or social isolation and is generally harmful to all people
There may be types of Christianity that do that, but not the denomination I am in. I disagree with what those types of people say, because I know that threatening others and harming people because they don't believe in God is wrong. However, not every Christian denomination does this. Don't generalize.
You know why I debate against religion?
No, I do not. Do tell.
It's not to meaninglessly attack people's beliefs.
That's kind of hard to believe, because I feel like my religion has been meaninglessly attacked.
It's not for profit, like those rich pastors and priests do.
AIDS isn't cured, so God must surely be more powerful than medicine?
Wow.
Are you trolling? I mean, you sound so stereotypical. "I"ll pray for you".
I'll pray for you too. I'll pray to Satan for you. To Ra, to Zeus, to Hermes and Thoth, Hail the Oldest Gods of the Darkest Night, for Under the Black Moon, The Ancient Ones Arise again. Hail to the Coldest North, to the Burning South, the Foggy East and the Doomed West, for Sól rises tonight. Forged by Wolves he sunders towards your burning soul, Thor's Hammer poised to release you from the bonds of your insane religion. May the Earth Mother and all Nature forgive your transgressions and your worship of a wicked god. He Who Is Above All, why do you not silence my Darkest Prayer? What weak Gods govern from the skies above, Why is there pain if your god is so strong?
For to release you from your indoctrinating spell of the Dark God Yahweh and the Fiend Christ, He Who Allows Evil Through Darkest, Most Corrupted Forgiveness. For who else can forgive evil, but one who welcomes Evil?
Hail Odin, Hail Ra, Hail Helios, may the True Gods reign once more, and the wicked Demon of Lies fall.
Lies cannot prevail in the face of truth, nor can your darkest reign prevail in the light of True Courage.
Fear Death, Fear the Unknown, Fear Fear itself, but do not fear Truth and Courage.
AIDS isn't cured, so God must surely be more powerful than medicine?
AIDs cannot be cured by medicine, and yet with prayers it can be. That was my point.
Are you trolling? I mean, you sound so stereotypical. "I"ll pray for you".
Do I now? What did you want me to say? Insult you in the same way that you insulted my mum. What would be the point in that. I was lying actually, I probably won't pray for you, just out of forgetfulness.
I'll pray for you too. I'll pray to Satan for you. To Ra, to Zeus, to Hermes and Thoth, Hail the Oldest Gods of the Darkest Night, for Under the Black Moon, The Ancient Ones Arise again. Hail to the Coldest North, to the Burning South, the Foggy East and the Doomed West, for Sól rises tonight. Forged by Wolves he sunders towards your burning soul, Thor's Hammer poised to release you from the bonds of your insane religion. May the Earth Mother and all Nature forgive your transgressions and your worship of a wicked god.
Those are a lot of gods. I don't mind you praying for me to some of them, just not Satan.
What weak Gods govern from the skies above, Why is there pain if your god is so strong?
Je ne sais pas. Pain is just something you gotta deal with, and stop complaining about. It's life. This is why I cannot wait till Jesus comes again, because like I said, the world is not going to become a better place to live in, ever.
Lies cannot prevail in the face of truth, nor can your darkest reign prevail in the light of True Courage.
Sigh. I cannot make you understand that I'm not spewing lies, because let's face it. There are more people who don't believe in God, than people who do (I think). So, those people who don't believe in God automatically think they're right because they have so much "scientific knowledge" and "back-up", and the rest of us are put in the box of shame and stupidity, just because we believe differently.
Your dark god will fall.
The only dark god I know is Satan. He is not my god. He is the god of the Satanists. My God is the God of light, love, mercy and Truth and Courage (you mentioned Him above, I believe).
Satan isn't a god. I don't really support Satan either though, however, all Satan has done is attempt to rebel against god with a bunch of angels, and then get kicked into hell for eternity or something. However, neither appear to actually exist in reality, except as concepts.
And yes, there is a difference between lies and delusion for sure. You certainly think you are correct.
However, the truth appears to be different.
And WHAT. No, there are a LOT more Christians, Muslims, Jews and Hindus than atheists and agnostics.
Atheists are insulted daily. If I tell someone I am atheist, and that person is religious, do you know what happens? It is about as bad as saying you are gay. People call it "the atheist closet" for a good reason. Perhaps it is nice to be the majority, a Christian, but for me, I see over half the USA believing in CREATIONISM, the most insane and utterly ... just horrible thing.
I mean, evolution isn't atheistic, it's just based on evidence, but Creationism is just an insult to intelligence and all of humanity.
-
And you think that the world is getting worse? What an awful attitude. I wish people would stop making divisions among themselves. It would be nice if instead of you thinking I will go to hell for not believing what you believe, if you simply accepted me as human and then we could be friends without religion or race or culture getting in the way.
-
Also, you should read about Satanism. It's not what you think. The name of their religion is deliberately scary, to keep close minded people away. However, I am not satanist.
I am a human who appreciates the beauty of the universe.
And you think that the world is getting worse? What an awful attitude.
I really feel awful sometimes of what the world is right now. I seriously wish I could feel that there will be change soon, but I can't believe that. I'm sorry that you think I have an awful attitude, but I can't change how I feel. I really really really really wish I could have hope for humanity, but it's just not there.
It would be nice if instead of you thinking I will go to hell for not believing what you believe, if you simply accepted me as human and then we could be friends without religion or race or culture getting in the way.
I never said that you would go to hell. Ever. If I did indirectly then I am very very sorry (I am being sincere here). I would never tell someone that they're going to hell, because I honestly wish everyone would go to heaven. Honestly. I respect your views and your opinions, but I'm also entitled to defend my beliefs.
Perhaps in the Old Testament, which is completely different from the New Testament and current days, so just because God did x and y then, does not mean He still does now.
So, if you don't like something about it you simply change it? Very... religious of you. Religion is not about change, it is about adherence and keeping what has always been kept. God is evil, if it existed and if it were as it is depicted in those books.
but in the past if He was cruel, it was because people had sinned against Him.
And sin is considered as whatever contradicts religions and its rules (and so it supposedly also contradicts god as he is supposed to be the one who created the rules). Even if what contradicts religion is in reality the real truth. Religion does not care what is really right or wrong, it simply has its own barbaric and stupid rules that may not be infringed ever. If someone does then it doesn't matter whether it was in accordance with reality or not, if it is against religion it is considered as sin.
During that time, the punishment of sin was death so He was "obliged" to follow through with the law He made.
Like saying "I do not believe you" and plop against the ground goes the head.
Nowadays, God doesn't do that. That's Satan.
That is just so stupid. Who created Satan? God. God is still the same evil bastard as he has always been. He simply lets someone else do his dirty work. Makes no difference.
He does exist, so yes, very much blamable.
No, he does not exist, there is zero evidence and science and logic, rational and objective thought are all against it. But thanks for blaming god for all of it, usually its humans that get the blame even though god supposedly created humanity. And then god is supposed to be perfect and all - unable to make mistakes - contradiction within god itself.
You must be thinking of a different god.
No, the same god as ever. I simply seem to know it better than you do, as I do not ignore important aspects - all that is evil about it (in fact there is nothing good about god).
However, I'm talking about my God.
Oh? You created your own religion? Well ain't that just cute.
You are a Christian, right? Not much to discuss over which god you are talking about...
Yes, God created Satan, but it's not like He created him the way he is right now. Satan was one of His angels, until He did something wrong and was sent to Hell.
No, he does not exist, there is zero evidence and science and logic, rational and objective thought are all against it.
But you don't believe in something or someone based on science or logic, but based on your faith.
But thanks for blaming god for all of it
I knew you were going to say that. I just couldn't be bothered to rephrase what I was saying. What I meant that He is real, which is why people seem to blame Him for everything so much. Why blame someone you don't believe exists in the first place? Isn't that why at funerals, they're all like, "God has made, and God has taken away," or something like that.
in fact there is nothing good about god
I could argue that, because He has done great and positive things in people's lives. Just because in your mind He's this evil person, because you've never experienced His love or grace doesn't mean He isn't good.
Oh? You created your own religion? Well ain't that just cute.
I knew you were going to say that as well! Argh... I knew how saying "my God" would sound. Anyway, I meant the God of all Christians and those who believe in Him.
Yes, God created Satan, but it's not like He created him the way he is right now. Satan was one of His angels, until He did something wrong and was sent to Hell.
Is god supposed to be omniscient, omnipotent, omnibenevolent? Because you are contradicting all that right now.
But you don't believe in something or someone based on science or logic, but based on your faith.
I have no faith. I have probability, and the hope I have is basically probability also - that it might go well or might just as well not. I also guess, presume, assume, etc. No faith.
What I meant that He is real, which is why people seem to blame Him for everything so much. Why blame someone you don't believe exists in the first place?
Blaming something that doesn't exist is stupid. The only reason atheists blame god in debates is because you, theists, keep claiming god exists but never provide any evidence. It is something to use to make you see how wrong you are with your beliefs, even though it doesn't seem to work, ever. All you do is ignore and provide further nonsense - seen it so much on this site.
Isn't that why at funerals, they're all like, "God has made, and God has taken away," or something like that.
Are you talking about funerals of religious people or nonreligious? I doubt there would a single mention of a god during atheist funerals.
I could argue that
And all of it would be in vain.
because He has done great and positive things in people's lives.
Like what?
Just because in your mind He's this evil person,
That comes from the knowledge I have gathered about it. That it is evil is a conclusion I have made from all the knowledge I have. Seriously "it" not "he". Why would god have a gender? It would be meaningless and imperfect - a "he" requires a "she" to be prefect.
because you've never experienced His love or grace doesn't mean He isn't good.
To experience all those it has to first exist.
Whatever you have "felt" is your own imagination and your own mind playing tricks on you. You yourself have created those feelings, they come from within you and from nowhere else.
Yes, He is. Why would Satan being sent to hell contradict that?
I'm not ignoring what you're saying. I'm trying to explain why I believe in God, but it's hard to put it into words. It's not like explaining why the Earth is round, or why it rains.. it's explaining your belief, and when you're trying to explain it to someone who is so against it, then you can't blame me for not making sense. I am trying.
I really don't believe that I'm wrong, never have and probably never will. Referring to what positive things, I'm talking about: healing those who are sick, helping people shape their lives once again, saving someone from the "wrong path" in life, etc. Stuff like that.
Furthermore, He is a He because He is also known as our Father. Besides, it really shouldn't matter what gender He is, because that's not point. I have experienced His love, mercy, grace, and so on, and it was not from my imagination. It's this feeling of protection and love that I always have with me, and if it was my imagination, then I would know. I am a 15 year old girl, in 11th grade, still learning and all that, and I still get scared. With God, all that fear just goes away. I know He's protecting, therefore I have no reason to fear, and I've felt like this since I accepted Jesus into my heart. I don't know how you would call this imagination, because how are you so sure it is?
Yes, He is. Why would Satan being sent to hell contradict that?
God created everything, right? If he is supposed to be omniscient then he knew beforehand how everything would turn out. If he is omnipotent then he would have the power to make everything and everyone perfect right this very moment. If he is omnibenevolent then he could not create a place such as hell. All those combined - there could be no pain, no suffering, no misery; everyone and everything should be perfect and happy. This is not how things currently are, thus god is not omni- those things and, in fact, your religion-specific god does not exist.
Ascribing attributes to something that has never been observed or met and saying that is exactly what that something is like is just stupid. All you can say is "I assume, presume, guess, etc." - that is the farthest you can take it without sounding, well, somewhat insane.
It's not like explaining why the Earth is round, or why it rains..
If it is based on reality then it is very much explainable.
it's explaining your belief, and when you're trying to explain it to someone who is so against it, then you can't blame me for not making sense.
I am against it for a reason - it doesn't make sense because it is against reality, it is against logic, against rationality, against objectivity. If you say something that is against those then you are simply put wrong. Having thoughts that deny reality is very easy to possess.
I really don't believe that I'm wrong, never have and probably never will.
Not everything is about believing. I do not believe anything, in the religious sense anyway.
If you are wrong you are wrong. It has nothing to do whether you believe you are or not. Just try to see your own fault and correct it. Be open-minded and critical about (almost...) everyone and everything and, most importantly, about yourself.
healing those who are sick,
Clarify. You mean peoples' immune systems fighting off diseases?
helping people shape their lives once again,
You mean something happened after which they had to re-figure their own lives? Has nothing to do with a god.
saving someone from the "wrong path" in life,
You mean like addicts realizing what they are doing and fighting against their addiction? It has nothing to do with a god.
Stuff like that.
All that stuff is explainable by natural means and processes, by science. There is no god needed.
Furthermore, He is a He because He is also known as our Father. Besides, it really shouldn't matter what gender He is, because that's not point.
Is god supposed to be perfect? If so then it cannot be a he. A he requires a she to be perfect. So it is very much relevant.
And by the way, females give birth, not males. New life comes forth from females. If anything then that god should be a she.
I have experienced His love, mercy, grace, and so on, and it was not from my imagination.
It all came from within your mind. It was all produced by your mind. Whether you like it or not but it is the truth.
There is just our Earthly life. Wishing for something more comes from misery and unhappiness, from having a miserable and bad life, originally anyway. But just because you wish for something more doesn't mean it is true. True is what is right in front of you - that which you can perceive with your senses. If we had a sense to perceive a god or something more then all humans would have it, yet I do not, meaning whatever you feel originates from within your mind.
It's this feeling of protection and love that I always have with me, and if it was my imagination, then I would know.
Apparently you do not know. Do those who are delusional know they are delusional? No, they think they are absolutely correct. With you it is exactly the same. You think you are right but in reality you are not.
The feeling of protection and love is irrational, it is an illusion. It is not based on reality.
and I still get scared. With God, all that fear just goes away.
Scared of what? The harsh truth of reality that you have to accept? Not avoid by hiding behind "god".
That fear is something to learn from, it is something to understand and figure out where it came from and why. Not shove it aside with your imaginary god.
I know He's protecting, therefore I have no reason to fear,
You know how? Because the bible says so? That's not how things work, just because someone or something says so doesn't make it real.
and I've felt like this since I accepted Jesus into my heart. I don't know how you would call this imagination, because how are you so sure it is?
I know how accepting things works and also how letting things go works - it's like there's a part of your mind that is constantly occupied and then, suddenly, it's freed up completely, all that energy directed to elsewhere. Feels like a great burden is instantly lifted, right? You feel very self-confident and happy - as if love? I've had that and it was nothing related to a religion or a god. It was all in my mind. Your god is not real but your mind is and your mind is what makes it all feel good and positive.
Then I am wrong. I can't prove I'm right, therefore I'm wrong. I'm wrong, my family is wrong, the entire Christian religion is wrong. Wrong wrong wrong. Happy now?
Any-who, I'm still going to believe I'm right until I die, which is when I'll know for sure whether I'm right or wrong. Same for you.
Any-who, I'm still going to believe I'm right until I die, which is when I'll know for sure whether I'm right or wrong. Same for you.
No, this is likely to be wrong. When you die, there won't be any "aha!" moment where you realize you were right and that there is no afterlife, because that would be conflicting...wouldn't it? To realize there is no afterlife, after you are dead....
The only way you'd ever know if you were right is if an afterlife does exist. There is little to no evidence to suggest that an afterlife exists, therefore it is likely that no afterlife exists.
True. If there is no afterlife I wouldn't even know whether I was right or wrong, because I would be "dead". However, if there is an afterlife (which is what I believe), then I would know that I'm right. Then again, it could be a different afterlife from heaven and hell, so once again I would be wrong.
If you can't know if you're correct, then why still be Christian? Because you were raised that way?
If I was you, I would try to explore other religions. You can still be Christian, of course, being wrong has nothing to do with faith. Faith is being wrong, but saying "I will believe anyways." Because yes, if this world is a test or a game designed by God, then your faith will come in handy. I mean, the chance that I am wrong, and that a god DOES exist does exist. The chance exists, I mean. ;D
But until that proof is there, I will count on any god I meet after death to judge me for my life, rather than for what my life lead me to believe.
Life should be fun, so don't believe things you don't want to. If atheism or agnosticism is not for you, then do not go for that.
You write your own destiny, so if you like debating, then debate, but it doesn't mean we're actually attacking you.
On this site, we should all be friends, helping each other to learn and grow.
If you can't know if you're correct, then why still be Christian? Because you were raised that way?
I honestly believe I'm correct, which is why I'm still Christian.
If I was you, I would try to explore other religions. You can still be Christian, of course, being wrong has nothing to do with faith. Faith is being wrong, but saying "I will believe anyways." Because yes, if this world is a test or a game designed by God, then your faith will come in handy. I mean, the chance that I am wrong, and that a god DOES exist does exist. The chance exists, I mean. ;D
I go to an international school, so I'm always exposed to different beliefs and cultures. It's not that I've closed myself, because I don't mind learning about other people's beliefs. It's a way to integrate myself into our diverse world. I'm glad you admitted that there's a chance you're wrong, just like there's a chance I'm wrong, because not many atheists do that. In fact, I've never met one who did.
You write your own destiny, so if you like debating, then debate, but it doesn't mean we're actually attacking you.
Sometimes it feels that way. The attacking part.
On this site, we should all be friends, helping each other to learn and grow.
True. Yes, we're debating, but there's also this unwritten rule on respect and understanding. Debating with you guys (atheists) is annoying at times, but I'll admit then you do make me think and question stuff that I've never taken the time to think about before. It builds my faith.
What does that mean? Have you thought about how it builds your faith?
Because I am sure that realistically, pointing out the problems religion cause and how gods are basically invisible and appear to do nothing in real life would actually take away your faith.
Perhaps it is on your mind more, thinking about the logic problems that some things bring up, such as the fact that evolution doesn't need guidance, or the fact that the big bang DOESN'T point to "nothing becoming something", but rather shows that there was always something, just in different forms.
Because I am sure that realistically, pointing out the problems religion cause and how gods are basically invisible and appear to do nothing in real life would actually take away your faith.
You might think that, but it actually does the opposite. Can't really explain why.
Then I am wrong. I can't prove I'm right, therefore I'm wrong. I'm wrong, my family is wrong, the entire Christian religion is wrong. Wrong wrong wrong. Happy now?
I would be happy if you didn't lie. That you understood that you are wrong. But it is true, you are wrong.
Any-who, I'm still going to believe I'm right until I die, which is when I'll know for sure whether I'm right or wrong. Same for you.
So the only way to know whether it is true or not is to die? You do understand how idiotic that is? It would mean that every human should basically off themselves and even that wouldn't prove it here in the real world.
How many humans have died throughout time? And yet there is still no evidence. Should make one wonder if religion is in fact a huge lie. If it was real, if it was true, we would already have evidence of it, yet we do not. Religion is a lie, there is no god.
I would be happy if you didn't lie. That you understood that you are wrong. But it is true, you are wrong.
Well, I couldn't prove I'm right (apparently), so I accepted that I'm wrong just to close the whole thing. I mean, I still believe I'm right, but you don't.
So the only way to know whether it is true or not is to die? You do understand how idiotic that is? It would mean that every human should basically off themselves and even that wouldn't prove it here in the real world.
I never said that people should kill themselves to find out the truth. I'm going to live my life like anyone else, and when I die naturally, that's when I'll personally know. As for everyone else, they'll know when their time comes as well, if they care about God's existence or lack of existence anyway.
How many humans have died throughout time? And yet there is still no evidence. Should make one wonder if religion is in fact a huge lie. If it was real, if it was true, we would already have evidence of it, yet we do not. Religion is a lie, there is no god.
But knowing before The Time would ruin the fun and secrecy in everything. I kid. Honestly though, just because no one has come back from the dead (as an angel, zombie, etc) and proclaimed that God indeed does exist, does not mean He doesn't. Has anyone ever come back and proved that He doesn't?
That's the point of all this. You cannot see yourself as you are - with wrong opinions and beliefs not based on reality. If you did, we wouldn't be debating, not about this anyway.
I'm going to live my life like anyone else, and when I die naturally, that's when I'll personally know.
Your mind is made of electricity. If you die that activity stops, your mind dies, you die. That's it, that's all there is. Your life ends completely when your brain stops working. If there is nothing working there is nothing that can go anywhere further. No afterlife, simply your decaying body. This is science, not wishful thinking and fantasy. Denying this would be denying a part of reality, a part of nature. If something exists then it is natural - if supernatural existed it would be natural. All that is natural is testable and verifiable with scientific method. No afterlife.
Honestly though, just because no one has come back from the dead (as an angel, zombie, etc) and proclaimed that God indeed does exist, does not mean He doesn't.
It does mean just that. Fantasy is called fantasy for a reason. Add to the "rising from the dead" and afterlife science, logic, rationality and objectivity, and you should realize there are no such things. And so coming back and proclaiming one really does exist is impossible.
There might be some very powerful beings of unknown characteristics but claiming there is absolutely a god with certain, defined features is just plain stupid and wrong.
Has anyone ever come back and proved that He doesn't?
No one has ever come back because once you die that's it, you die. There is no more you anywhere. Once your mind is dead and has begun decaying you are gone forever. There is no afterlife. Just study how human mind works, what it is made of and you'll see that it is impossible for an afterlife to exist, because human mind cannot go anywhere - it is stuck with the brain.
Sure, your body would decay and your brain would stop working, but what about your spirit?
There is no soul either.
I read this after I typed what I said above. It's like you anticipated what I was going to say. Seriously though, how do you know there is no soul or spirit? I completely agree that once you die, or physical self will rot away, but I also believe that your spirit is not dead, but continues to live.
There is the brain, the physical part. Then there are the electrical impulses, the mind, the subconscious - you yourself. There is no need for a soul.
Ever heard that the simplest is usually the right one? What would be the point adding unnecessary features to something already complete and working? In this case adding the "soul" on top of what makes a human a human - the human mind. It is pointless, in fact stupid. There is no soul.
Then also consider the fact that a soul has been claimed to exist for thousands of years yet there is to this day no evidence. But now we have science, logic, rational and objective thinking that tell there is no soul.
That's exactly what it means. If there would be something such as a soul then there would also be a need for it. It has no evidence and logic, science, rational and objective thinking is against it - that makes a soul fictional only.
It is a nice word, but realistically, do you need one? Does my kitty need one? I will love him even without a soul. I like him for his personality and his cute fluffiness.
It seems to me that a soul is nothing more than a wish for immortality. A way for a person to think they will live forever, and even see loved ones again. It sounds nice, but in the pursuit of truth, is that realistic?
You can't come back to Earth with your soul.. you either go to heaven........ or to hell. Wanted to point that out.
soul: the spiritual or immaterial part of a human being or animal, regarded as immortal.
That's what a soul is. And you do need one, because like what.. umm, well someone mentioned that when you die, your body rots away. Your soul however moves on to a new "life", wherever that may be, and you live there forever. Yay.
Sources for this? I'm guessing the bible. Satan preceeds the bible and was put in as a boogyman to blame evil on. Lucifer means light, truth, and morning star. Satan in sanscrit (language preceding the bible) means truth. Watch on YouTube: Christianity fail satanism win. Its animated and explains satanism as what it is in reality. Or watch any other satanist youtuber. You know nothing of real satanism.
I would probably relapse into a sort of pick and mix paganism like I did after I realised Christianity was a steaming pile of bullshit. They tend to be very accepting of outsiders, and I like the symbolism and rituals involved with nature worship. Also I'm a huge fantasy nerd, so Paganism is kind of like pretending the stories I used to read about dragons and elves and magic are true.
Another reason I'd choose Paganism is that there's no solid doctrine telling you what to do and believe, it's more of a pick and choose thing, there's no one threatening you with hideous and inhuman visions of eternal agony or shoving books in your face or telling you what you can and can't do with your penis/lungs/liver.
Excluding Buddhism, I'd have to choose Christian Catholicism. It is less fanatical when compared to most other religions, and is most popular among the majority. It's beliefs are also less controversial when compared to Islam or Judaism.
And, it is the religion which I had recently de-converted from.
Your question is flawed in that it assumes the existence of God requires the existence of religion.
If God exists, God just is. Religion is a man-made set of institutions that may or may not have anything to do with God--religion has more to do with regulating yourself and trying to regulate your neighbors.
Assuming this, which religion, in your perhaps completely subjective opinion, is the "best" interepreation of the reality of a god's existence? Which do you most agree with?
Though I don't assume that my own personal religion is "the best" by any stretch, it is (inescapably) the one I most agree with. I suppose that to recognize the interpretation of a religion besides my own as valid, would effectively render it my interpretation. If it's appropriate to consider Syncretism as a religion then I shall tentatively accept that label.
What do you believe the nature of such a god would be/which religion's interpreatation would you be most in agreement with?
I look at god as an intellectual construct that comprises one's "ruling logic"
