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Are You As Sick of the Sexism on The Internet as I am?
I'm a lady, and I've found that the internet- INCLUDING sites that one might expect to be filled with intelligent, even enlightened folk, like CreateDebate- is filled with ridiculous amounts of sexism. There are debates about conservatives "sleeping with liberals women", and it's incredibly common to wind up in debates where your opinion is labled as unworthy becasue of your gender.
That particular debate is a farce but yes, I am sick of sexism everywhere. When I first joined this site I participated in several debates about sexism and came up against astoundingly ignorant and hateful counterarguments. I do believe things are slowly changing though so the best we can do is perpetuate the trend by educating where we can and chipping away at misinformation and ignorance.
I, too, am sick of sexism on the internet and I am sick of people telling me I should just accept said sexism and "lighten up". (I'm also tired of the kitchen-sandwich jokes. I mean, can't anyone come up with an original and witty quip at least?)
"[S]studies have shown that exposure to this type of humor [i.e., sexist "humor"] increases rape proclivity..."
"[R]esearch demonstrates that exposure to sexist humor can create conditions that allow men – especially those who have antagonistic attitudes toward women – to express those attitudes in their behavior... The acceptance of sexist humor leads men to believe that sexist behavior falls within the bounds of social acceptability."
... studies show also that exposure to a driver's license increases car accident proclivity.
As with most studies of this nature, someone confused cause and effect for the purpose of securing a grant.
It goes both ways madamecherry. Find a Best Buy, Fast Food, or Super Market commercial where the male is not the bumbling idiot and smart wife doesn't come to the rescue.
Why is it okay for women to have a stereotypical idea of the male on TV where the parody is not nearly as obvious, but one cannot make an obvious satirical comment on a debate about who fucks who concerning Dems and Republicans?
Why is one okay and not the other?
Sexism is a real thing, but it does not help to see it around every corner and in every shadow.
No, no, no. Wrong again. This study sounds perfectly grounded in logic to me and the comparison you give sounds illogical. Sexist humor does make sexism seem socially acceptable. Certain types of humor is just a thin guise for meanness and if you subscribe to that way of thinking you will think it's funny and laugh and if you don't subscribe to that way of thinking you will find it unfunny and distasteful. And before you go saying I have no sense of humor, stop. I have a great sense of humor and laugh often, but I am also smart enough to know jokes can be very mean-spiritied.
Portraying a man as a bumbling idiot in a commercial could be an example of that mean-spritedness I just spoke of, it depends on how it's done. Or it could just be youseeing reverse sexism where there is none. ;)
Sorry I didn't get the comment about the Dems and Repubs or I would have addressed that too.
Well, the dem/rep comment is kind of the center of the whole thing.
Sure, "certain types of humor" is a thin disguise for actual sexism, or racism, or whatever else.
My point though is that some is not. Specifically, the humor in the debate this debate is about. Basically Joe said Rep fuck Dem's women, I said they had to because Rep women look like they came out of Middle Earth,
and the creator of the debate said something along the lines of women not being property and shouldn't be fucked by anyone or something.
Hence the sexist/ not sexist debate has ensued.
As for that study. They are trying to make a direct correlation between a male hearing something negative about a women, then going out and raping a woman. I say the study is flawed, rapists rape regardless of what they did or did not hear 5 minutes earlier.
Well, I'm not going into the Dem/Rep thing because I still don't fully understand the context of how it was said and I don't feel like looking it up. Did this all start in another debate thread?
Good to hear you agree with what I said about humor.
And back to the study, I don't think the point of the study says that a man hears a sexist joke and than 5 minutes later goes and rapes a woman becasue of it, that would be ridiculous. But it's sexist humor that socially conveys the message that "hey it's okay to devalue women. Haha isn't that funny? Kind of mentality."
I don't think it's sexist humor that devalues a woman as much as the prevalence of women standing on the corner selling their body,women posing in magazines selling their body,woman wearing little to no clothing and showing off to crowds of men.
Interesting that you do not mention any of women's actions as devaluing a woman but a joke or comment leads a man to rape.
But who are they selling their bodies TO? Not other women! So yeah a woman can be devalueing herself when she does these things, but she's certainly not devaluing herself alone.
Nobody said one joke leads to rape, but I think the broader point is that the more men laugh at sexist jokes the more it seems like it's socially acceptable to BE sexist. And sexism IS a part of rape.
The first step must be made by the woman. With no product there is no buyer. In essence,women themselves start the devaluing of women, men follow but the first step of acceptance starts with the woman.
Thank you
Rapists and sex slave trade excluded understandably and should be against the law.
It needs to be understood that men and women ARE fucking different. Thus need to be treated different in certain "social" circumstances.
It is literally stupid to go to one or the other extreme of this debate.
Guys should not treat women the exact same as they treat men. And some women need to calm the fuck down with this sexism shit.
... see everyone here's fucking wrong...
but mostly you.
Women should be allowed to dress however the hell they want. In fact, I encourage dressing sexy, then douches like you have to come along and ruin it for the rest of us.
"Oh, it's her fault she looked like a "slut"
I hate that shit. It is never the girls fault, it is pussy guys' fault who have no idea what self control is and should likely be shot immediately if I didn't firmly believe in the spirit of the Judicial system.
Thank you for you more enlightened perspective this time. Exactly right! Blaming the victim IS a root cause of this problem. It's a completely maddening way of treating someone. It's saying nothing bad has happened, completely DEVALUING someone's opinion, which is exactly what defines sexism, as you said.
I don't know what the original arguement was that then offshooted to this debate, but I think the point of this debate is saying "Yes, sexism does still exist even in our society". It CERTAINLY is not as prevalant as it once was and as it still is in many parts of the world, but it is still here, and it presents an additional challenge to you if you happen to be of the female gender. Let's not forget that for the majority of human history women were considered PROPERTY and had very little to no rights whatsoever. A women's right to vote barely became part of the constitution less than 100 years ago. And you think since that time ALL sexism has been eradicated? Of course as males, and I'm assuming I'm debating against all males here, you do not experience sexism personally so you are probably like "Sexism? What are you talking about?" But it still does exist, certainly.
You sound like a misogynist. Please read this fact "1 in 6 women will be sexually assulted in their lifetime" Source: RAINN: The nation's largest anti-sexual assault organization.
Also some governments have criminalized the buying of sexual favors rather than the selling of favors in recognition of the fact that "most people who sell sex do so because they have no other choice or because they are forced into prostitution by others". Source: Wikipedia, Prostitution in Iceland
I mean, how come I have to be nicer to a girl with a dumb opinion than I have to be to a guy? Like, why should I have to compensate for the varying degrees of sensitivity in the opposite sex?
That's totally sexist of a girl to expect me to be nicer to them based on tits and some ovaries.
Why is it okay to respond to a girls argument by calling her a cunt and telling her to put dick in her mouth? I'm equal-opportunity for calling out dumb people, but no one is asking you to be nicer to dumb ladies than gents; it's the whole TOGTFO mentality that I was referring to.
1. I myself have not told you or anyone on here to "put a dick in their mouth"
2. If I were to say to a guy "put a dick in your mouth" he would not start a debate decrying the rapant sexism on the internet, but many women would
hence double standard.
I can call my best friend a homo who likes it in the ass in jest. I have yet to meet a girl no matter how "cool" or how much of a tomboy she claims to be, who would not take something like "you're a whore who likes to take it in the ass" said in jest as anything but a deep personal offense.
Varying degrees of sensitivity.
Not every girl is the same, not every guy. But it is unfair to expect a guy to consider the feelings of every girl on earth for every comment they make.
Sexism is just as real as racism or any other ism I imagine, but assuming the worst in every off-handed comment does not help the situation, it only makes one look overly sensitive thus reinforcing any sexism which may or may not exist.
If you see what you consider to be a sexist comment, imagine if it is a girl saying it and discover whether it still makes you angry. If so maybe you have a legitimate argument, my guess there would be many instances where a women concerned with such would find it is not the comment, but a general poor opinion of men which leads to this anger.
If I were to say to a guy "put a dick in your mouth" he would not start a debate decrying the rapant sexism on the internet, but many women would
If someone were to call two different people a nigger, you and a black person, who would be more upset? Probably the person it is intended to hurt, rather than the one it doesn't apply to.
I am not attempting to compare racism and sexism but the principle is the same. When someone says 'put a dick in your mouth' to a woman, they are reinforcing restrictive social roles that are already in place for her; that she should stop talking and be subservient. When someone says it to a man, it is either humorously inapplicable or an implication that they are gay...which many men would take offense to.
I can call my best friend a homo who likes it in the ass in jest. I have yet to meet a girl no matter how "cool" or how much of a tomboy she claims to be, who would not take something like "you're a whore who likes to take it in the ass" said in jest as anything but a deep personal offense.
How many female friends do you have who you know as well as your best male friend? How many of your male acquaintances, coworkers, or new friends could you say something like that to? My boyfriend and my closest friends and I talk to each other like that regularly, and it is not uncommon for girls to affectionately call each other 'whore' or 'bitch'. Because a girl would not accept a remark like that from you does not mean there are not certain people who can say it to her.
Sexism is just as real as racism or any other ism I imagine, but assuming the worst in every off-handed comment does not help the situation, it only makes one look overly sensitive thus reinforcing any sexism which may or may not exist.
This is true and it is unfortunate. But I do not think that women should adjust their behaviour based on what sexists will think of them. I do recognize the futility to trying to stamp out sexist language everywhere it crops up but who knows, maybe the women who do take that approach have had some opportunities to enlighten and educate.
When someone says 'put a dick in your mouth' to a woman, they are reinforcing restrictive social roles that are already in place for her
Maybe, or maybe they were not reinforcing a restrictive social role at all, and just wanted her to shut up and would have said the same to a guy. The point is the immediate assumption. Unless you are there and a mind reader, you do not know whether the guy was simply tired of hearing her speak, or felt all women should have a dick in their mouth at all times.
How many female friends do you have who you know as well as your best male friend etc.
Well I lived with one for 5 years, and I don't believe have ever been 6 months without a serious gf, so it's not as if I live in a bubble. I'm not sure what the point is, are you trying to say that girls really in general would not be offended if a guy was to talk to her the same way he talks to his male friends regardless of how well they know eachother? Even if there are a couple girls out there who truly could "hang with the guys" or whatever in that sense, the vast majority of the time there is simply a difference in how a men and women communicate.
How many guys do you see at tupperware parties volunarily... I mean who are not creepily trying to get laid? Is that sexist that girls have these parties that guys generally can't stand? Maybe to stop being sexist girls should change the way they communicate at tupperware parties so males will find it a more amiable environment for them... This is a slippery slope to a retarded world.
Which ties into the last part:
But I do not think that women should adjust their behaviour based on what sexists will think of them
Exactly, and at the same time neither should men be expected to change their behavior. It seems to me you applied this idea of sexism to the debate Joe made about who fucks who's wife, dem v rep, whatever that was.
I'm saying there was nothing sexist about it at all. I'm saying in that case, and in many, some women see sexism where it is not sexism, but just how some guys talk.
Your point seems to be that guys should not talk in such a manner. I'm saying that is you trying to change the way guys behave. You say women shouldn't have to change their behavior, and I agree, yet there is nothing in that debate that would force any woman anywhere to change their behavior.
Maybe, or maybe they were not reinforcing a restrictive social role at all, and just wanted her to shut up and would have said the same to a guy. The point is the immediate assumption. Unless you are there and a mind reader, you do not know whether the guy was simply tired of hearing her speak, or felt all women should have a dick in their mouth at all times.
I will concede that, in any number of hypothetical situations, the remark may not have been sexist. But in the real world, how often do really you think someone will tell a man to shut up in this fashion? Compared to how often women are told to shut up in a similar way?
Well I lived with one for 5 years, and I don't believe have ever been 6 months without a serious gf, so it's not as if I live in a bubble. I'm not sure what the point is, are you trying to say that girls really in general would not be offended if a guy was to talk to her the same way he talks to his male friends regardless of how well they know each other? Even if there are a couple girls out there who truly could "hang with the guys" or whatever in that sense, the vast majority of the time there is simply a difference in how a men and women communicate.
I don't mean to imply any social impairment on your part but we tend to socialize more effectively within genders than between them. You relate very differently to your male friends than you do with your girlfriend, and your girlfriend relates very differently to her female friends than they do to you. One of the reasons a female could use normally offensive language towards another female is commiseration; they both understand the hostility such language can confer, and use it in situations that take the teeth out of it, so to speak. You cannot claim the same commiseration when it comes to sexism, as even though sexism towards males does exist, it has nowhere near the same presence or impact in your daily life.
I do think girls and women should be accustomed to being addressed similarly to men, but I do not think sexist language is automatically a part of this arrangement. Even sexist remarks between men are still sexist against the feminine role, its just that when the target of these remarks is a man, you can't really hurt him with inapplicable insults.
How many guys do you see at tupperware parties volunarily... I mean who are not creepily trying to get laid? Is that sexist that girls have these parties that guys generally can't stand? Maybe to stop being sexist girls should change the way they communicate at tupperware parties so males will find it a more amiable environment for them... This is a slippery slope to a retarded world.
I am not sure what this has to do with it, as tupperware parties are not discriminatory anymore than Super Bowl parties are. Both genders are ostensibly welcome to either, but most men probably find tupperware as uninteresting as women find sports to be. If sexist language is being excessively used at either, then that is a different thing, but the concept of the event is not sexist in itself. This is not about different modes of communication, this is about the use of language that enforces sexist attitudes.
Exactly, and at the same time neither should men be expected to change their behavior.
I disagree. Men who display sexist views should be encouraged to change their behaviour.
It seems to me you applied this idea of sexism to the debate Joe made about who fucks who's wife, dem v rep, whatever that was.
I'm saying there was nothing sexist about it at all. I'm saying in that case, and in many, some women see sexism where it is not sexism, but just how some guys talk.
I understood that debate to be a joke so I did not participate, but the women in that debate were clearly referred to as resources with no autonomy or sexual choice. It most definitely was sexist.
Your point seems to be that guys should not talk in such a manner. I'm saying that is you trying to change the way guys behave. You say women shouldn't have to change their behavior, and I agree, yet there is nothing in that debate that would force any woman anywhere to change their behavior.
I do not believe it is appropriate to use prejudice language around a person whose reaction you cannot be certain of. Feel free to throw it around among friends, but absolutely expect a negative reaction when you use it in a public setting.
I am saying women should not change their behaviour in order to please people who have sexist ideas about women.
I am saying men (and women) who have the sexist ideas should change their behaviour. Not through censorship or bullying, but through understanding and the dispelling of ridiculous myths and gender roles.
Okay you have many good points. I'm not saying your original claim is baseless,
however it does not seem to me that a guy talking about fucking another guy's wife is any more or less sexist than if a girl were to talk about fucking another girl's husband. Whether or not a girl would talk in such a manner is not the point. The point is how it is meant by a guy generally.
It is not necessarily from any feeling that a woman is or should be property, it is simply an act meant to humilate the other person in the conversation and that the way he would go about humiliating the other involves a woman plays no role. I realize that, the fact that she does not play a role is your point, that that is what is sexist... least I think it is, but stick with me.
You are introducing an expectation of the male, to consider the wife's role in whether she gets fucked.
Fine, and in real life it should be expected the wife would have the final say of course.
But guys do not consider other's feelings generally at all, male or female.
For example the analogy would work exactly the same if two gay guys argue over who will fuck who's husband. It would be for the purpose of humiliating the other, and neither would be thinking of their husband's role in the decision as to whether they get fucked. As if they were property as you say. But in this case this "property" would be other guys.
I'm saying if guys do not take this consideration for other guys, why should they be expected to for girls?
Like it or not, this particular aspect of the male psyche is not going to change anytime soon due to evolution - not learning, you can't change nature. Guys are naturally insensitive by and large. It does not mean a woman should take every offhanded comment personally. It also doesn't mean that girl's should not identify when real sexism does exist. But realize there is a different thought process.
And that was supposed to be highlighted by the tupperware example, but whatever I'm bored now and you have a sexy girl as your avatar (reverse sexism) so you win.
Here, how's this for an edit of my original argument on Joe's "sexist" debate:
"It makes sense, republicans have to get laid too I guess since their gay boyfriends look like they just crawled out of middle earth and liberal gay boyfriends are usually hotter." etc etc
There, it's no longer sexist and still humiliates Joe.
... I want a random woman to walk up to me and start playing with my reproductive organs in a bar, should I then treat a woman as I want to be treated?
Your point is silly. Great so you want something, good for you. Congratulations!! I'm sure there are many gay males out there who would like to randomly walk up to you and start playing with your reporoductive organs too, but since it might be unwelcome and then that wouldn't be fair to you that sort of behaviour is considered illegal (do I really have to explain this here, am I debating with a sexual deviant?).
... so is your point women should, or should not be treated as males want to be treated? And are you trying to make a serious argument that in all circumstances males and females should be treated the exact same? And do you realize there is a difference between "equal" and "same" and that one does not have to be the same to be equal?
My point is "I am sick of sexism" on the internet, in real life and everywhere it exists. I don't expect males and females to be treated the same in all circumstances. We are different, clearly. But sexism, which I am thinking of in the negative connotation, discrimintion or devaulation based on gender, is just not a good thing and never will be. And to say you support it is saying you support negative treatment of someone based on factors beyond their control, which is not fair.
Just to give you an exapmle of what I am talking about- I recenly found this website and was thinking, "Hey this looks cool, let's check it out" So I scan the debates that are around and the winning positions, and I think "Looks like the majority of people here have their heads in the right place based on the winning positions ". But then I come to this issue and MORE people agreed with the I Love Sexism stance. Wow, what a slap in the face that is to my gender. A community of people who overall are very smart, but that think sexism is okay. It's like insiduous. SEXISM IS NOT OKAY. Don't try to feed me excrement and tell me it's okay because everyone else eats it, excrement is excrement is excrement.
absolutely, it is all in all disrespectful and it would be nice if people kept their mouths shut if they see or talk about an attractive person; there are ways to handle it and being sexist in any way is not one
i am sick of sexism, but createdebate is enlightened? really? i dont think anything is really enlightened. if this is any more enlightened than any other site on the internet, i'll eat a big straw hat.
The internet is a reflection of the real world and unfortuatnely sexism is alive and well all over our culture. This is the reality and the ugly truth of how it is. It's this part of existance that makes a woman feel a little sad, and sometimes A LOT sad, about being female. There are things said and done all the time that are sexist. It makes me SICK! Women do SO much for humankind, and it isn't appropriately valued. Sexism is dehumanizing and to those of you that support it - Go see a shrink because something is wrong with you!!!!
To those whose posts are tagged "I love sexism", do you also support racism? If not, how can you differentiate the two in your mind as being any different from each other. Race and gender are both facts of our life that are beyond our control.
Thoughts to ponder..."Sexism negatively impacts everyone. Women report that their experiences of sexism are relatively common (Swim, Hyers, Cohen, & Ferguson, 2001)). Sexism includes a wide range of events such as derogatory comments and sexual harassment to more extreme events such as sexual assault (Moradi & Subich, 2002). Oftentimes, women will internalize sexist beliefs. Internalized sexism occurs when women buy into the negative attitudes, beliefs and cultural norms about the role of women in society. Sexism has been linked to negative mental health outcomes for women ... men are not exempt from its negative effects. "
I believe the statistics state that 1 in 6 women are sexually assaulted in their lifetime and that is in OUR country, the United States. And it is a commonly known fact that sexual assault is rooted in sexism. So how can you say sexism doesn't exist or isn't still prevalent to this day?
I am completely fed up with sexism on the web. And if you ever complain about it, you get told that the women of today are too sensitive and by complaining and whining about something so small, are just embarassing themselves. Well, I am offended by sexist comments and damn proud of it. Women have achieved the big things - they are able to have careers, vote and are able to have an education. Now women need to achieve the little things which are holding back equality - every sexist comment is one of the "harmless" little things, as well as stupid things that the majority of men don't actually mean, but say anyway.
So what if there are equlas? I think it still sucks especially coming from your past. You havent seen someone in a long time and they started shedding there skin right in front of your very eyes when I thought it was something more than what I say. Could this be misleading? Or just the Internet being an anti-christ for itself to my knowledge?
I think that the sheer quantity of sexist jokes around the internet and in real life are indicative of a society which does not have equality for men and women. And that's just sad, not funny.
Sexism on the Internet --against both sexes --harbors negative ideologies outside of the online world. This can be harmful, as implicit and explicit sexism in media, politics, religion, law, family, and society still exist both online and in the real world. In order to progress as a humanist society, we must first accept that such sexism exists then work together in removing said sexism, as we are doing with racism, out of our society. Make this a safe, more welcoming place for all people.
All I know is I was looking for some kind of positive reinforcement. Someone in my life is always making sexist, racist, and homophobic comments. I was hoping I could find some kind of support, at least for women. Men still think it's all a joke, all over the net. I've kind of given up. I'm just trying to convince myself that the Internet is not a quantitative measurement of sexism, racism, and homophobia in this country. *nerdfighteria = more women than men. Knowledge is power.
totally sick of it. would write a comment here about it, but, tl;dr. seems like there are mostly trolls in opposition. what would you tell you daughter if she came to read this thread?
I am against sexism. But when you said God, husbands are dumb., that is also a sexism comment. I believe that sexism should be removed completely instead of the oppressors becoming the oppressed.
You probably can't figure it out becuase your brain is not following a logical thought pattern. We are discussing sexism here and not why someone's husband did this or that. Please try to stay on topic. :)-
My personal goal is not to be clever for clevernesses sake, but to be on the side of truth and moral uprightness. What is your goal? And what have you offered us with this comment? Your comment sounds like an attempt to insult and discredit without offering any logic.
No, it's certainly not a case of being OVERWHELMED by your comments. I was OVERWHELMED by NOTHING. I was however, UNDERWHELMED (and annoyed) by your lack of ability to intelligently debate this issue, and your use of a bad joke to try and camouflage that fact.
What I can't believe is how ardent you are in trying to debate a ghost. I'm no more for sexism than I am against it and yet here you are with your feathers ruffled like a rooster starring at its reflection waiting for it to make a move.
You are 100% wasting your time trying to debate sexism to me as I clearly have no interest in the subject outside of mockery.
You say my joke is bad and that's why you're pissy, but it's clear that just the opposite it true. You clearly have noticed that the debate creator also made a joke towards me that was about as brilliant as a four year old's rendition of the Mona Lisa drawn on a piece of yellow construction paper with fat crayons.
You didn't attack her sexist joke, now did you? Why is that?
Well, it had the offensive force of a care-bear Christmas special and was largely ignored as such where as my comment hurt you so bad that you still refuse to stop harassing me for it.
Here's my advise to you:
Fuck off. You won't gain anything from trying to debate me on such a boring topic, your just going to get more and more wound up.
Any rational person would have come up with their own half-way witty joke and posted it on the other side if they were hurting for self esteem so badly (the debate creator was almost a rational half-wit at least).
Or, you can keep riding this dead horse into the sunset until you've frozen to death waiting outside.
Either way, it's entertaining to me to watch how worked up you've gotten over a joke that I had forgotten I'd even written by the time I woke up the next morning. ;)
"What I can't believe is how ardent you are" Bows That I am, thank you. :)
"sexism...no interest in the subject outside of mockery...boring topic" I'm sorry for you, genuinely. My advice to you, find something else to do with your time. Something that you DO care about and that has beneficial affect on yourself and those around you and you will fare much better in life.
"Any rational person would have come up with their own half-way witty joke and posted it on the other side if they were hurting for self esteem so badly" But that's it though, I'm NOT hurting for self-esteem. That is not why I'm here. I'm here because I love truth and I love debating on behalf of it in logical, well-thought out ways. Why are you here?
"Fuck off." I don't think so, bud. And I didn't come here for a swearing match, so until you learn how to debate in a more effective way I won't be replying to you.
"I'm sorry for you, genuinely. My advice to you, find something else to do with your time. Something that you DO care about and that has beneficial affect on yourself and those around you and you will fare much better in life."
Perhaps among other things this is another you fail to grasp, but you came to me. I moved on from this immediately after I clicked onto another page and would never have bothered with this debate again had it not been for people like you whom have the letting go ability of a starving python.
Your complaint makes about as much sense as though you are constantly flicking me in the back of the head then complaining when I tell you I don't enjoy being flicked in the back of the head. DURRRR.
"But that's it though, I'm NOT hurting for self-esteem. That is not why I'm here. I'm here because I love truth and I love debating on behalf of it in logical, well-thought out ways. Why are you here?"
You're an idiot. What I made was a joke. Everyone could see that it was a joke. You're bitching about nothing.
I have every right to joke about any damn thing I want and I'm not going to avoid making fun of pissy women just because a few people with skin as thick as cigarette paper lack the self control required to stay away from things that they can't handle.
If you really had any logic you'd realize what an absolute victory it is for the feminist movement that true sexist positions have been crippled to the point were they hold the grand cumulative relevance of self satirical mockery.
But then you'd actually have to understand the joke now wouldn't you?
""Fuck off." I don't think so, bud. And I didn't come here for a swearing match, so until you learn how to debate in a more effective way I won't be replying to you."
Well thank the non-existent that's over. I should have told you to fuck off sooner, it would have saved you and I the embarrassment of me having to explain the subtlety of a simple joke to you. ;)
Though, I LOVE how you say you won't fuck off at the beginning of your paragraph and then end the EXACT SAME paragraph saying you're going to do what I told you to do anyway. XD
I could go on and on in this supposed "debate" with you, but it's boring me and wasting my time. This has just become a personal attack on your end; we aren't even discussing the real issue here. It's become glaringly apparent to me that you aren't very concerned with treating other people and their ideas with any type of respect.
If you really had any logic you'd realize what an absolute victory it is for the feminist movement that true sexist positions have been crippled to the point were they hold the grand cumulative relevance of self satirical mockery. Well, if you had any type of respect for your fellow debators, and any tact, you wouldn't just jump in making jokes that could be offensive. I do appreciate humor and I also appreciate people who take the time to try and make others laugh, but hit the wrong nerve and your attempt at humor becomes akin to doling out a dose of electric shock. As I said, people like to deny it is so, but sexism still runs deep. And while I certainly can appreciate self-satrical mockery in its appropriate time and place, I would have been much more interested in seeing an open and honest debate about the existance of sexism both on this board and in real life. And your joke only served as a red herring. By your own admission the real issue is "Boring" to you.
LOL. You just can't help yourself, can you? So much for not talking to me anymore XD
"I could go on and on in this supposed "debate" with you, but it's boring me and wasting my time."
Uh, you've already said this. The only reason I can see for you to even make this comment is to satisfy your fragile ego.
I can't even fathom how it makes sense in your head to come to such a conclusion, yet still persist in badgering me. Unless of course you're not being totally honest. =/
"This has just become a personal attack on your end; we aren't even discussing the real issue here."
Well you haven't exactly given me much else to go on other than your feeble attempts at making me feel sorrow or regret or whatever feeling it is you think I should incite upon myself as punishment for finding humor in a subject you're not mature enough to handle.
For someone who whines non-stop about how I don't care enough about the "real issue", you haven't exactly brought up any tangible debating material yourself. If you have something interesting to say I suggest you either spit it out or stop harassing me.
"It's become glaringly apparent to me that you aren't very concerned with treating other people and their ideas with any type of respect."
Well, that's an outright lie. Simply check my past arguments and you will see I've given countless people at least enough respect to respond in a strictly factual manner.
Some less than others, but I can forgive one for being wrong as just being ignorant, but a person persistent in their ignorance is just stupid and deserving of no more "respect" than say, a spiteful woman with as much of a sense of humor as a mortician embalming his own wife.
"Well, if you had any type of respect for your fellow debators, and any tact, you wouldn't just jump in making jokes that could be offensive. I do appreciate humor and I also appreciate people who take the time to try and make others laugh, but hit the wrong nerve and your attempt at humor becomes akin to doling out a dose of electric shock. As I said, people like to deny it is so, but sexism still runs deep. And while I certainly can appreciate self-satrical mockery in its appropriate time and place, I would have been much more interested in seeing an open and honest debate about the existance of sexism both on this board and in real life. And your joke only served as a red herring. By your own admission the real issue is "Boring" to you."
If you hadn't noticed, most people got the joke immediately and even up-voted my comment as a result. At the very least the majority of the people on this site found my joke funny and/or appropriate. If you wanted a serious debate you could (and DID by the looks of things) debate anyone else on this side of the forum.
If you really get the joke then I'm sure you understand that sexism doesn't really "run deep" with me and you've simply lashed out because you were looking to debate anyone and it just so happened my comment was the most popular in this debate.
Hey, no problem. I've been there myself, but you're attacking the wrong person. I'm sure you've noticed by now that createdebate is a rather laid-back site so, if serious debates are what your after you need to go to http://www.onlinedebate.net/ where they will literally ban you for not taking yourself as least as seriously as Kanye West takes himself (seriously, I was banned in under 20 min.).
The only reason I can see for you to even make this comment is to satisfy your fragile ego.
Yes, dude, I have a severely fragile ego. Keep telling yourself that.
you haven't exactly brought up any tangible debating material yourself
You're funny...not! Just goes to show you aren't even reading what's being said here. Look over there <--- I have brought up PLENTY of debating material. Whether or not you've READ it is your issue.
If you really get the joke then I'm sure you understand that sexism doesn't really "run deep" with me
Okay, since you want to sit on both sides of the fence, then when somebody calls you on it say "I'm not sitting on THAT side of the fence". Make your position CLEAR. Make jokes about sexism all you want, but do not post it on the other side of the arguement beause that comes across as mockery - and not of the self satirical variety, no, just plain old fashioned mockery. As I told another poster, it depends on what side of the arguement you publicly take as to whether your joke will be perceived as being funny or as one intended to wound. So :|-
Jeez, every couple of weeks you just re-infect yourself into my life, don't you. =p
"Yes, dude, I have a severely fragile ego. Keep telling yourself that."
Well, you've given me no reason to think otherwise... so, I will, thank you. ;)
"You're funny...not! Just goes to show you aren't even reading what's being said here. Look over there <--- I have brought up PLENTY of debating material. Whether or not you've READ it is your issue."
Am I to butt into other persons debates now? Have you forgotten? YOU came to ME. You don't seem to have anything to say other than "I don't like your joke" and seeing as you've already said this, you really don't have any reason to talk to me unless you plan on bringing up something else.
Which you haven't.
"Okay, since you want to sit on both sides of the fence, then when somebody calls you on it say "I'm not sitting on THAT side of the fence". Make your position CLEAR."
Like I've said before, it was MORE than clear enough for everyone else. It isn't my fault you didn't understand, YOU are the exception and the exception doesn't prove the rule. =p
"Make jokes about sexism all you want, but do not post it on the other side of the arguement beause that comes across as mockery"
It IS mockery, so I don't see what your point is. I'm both mocking the absurdity of the sexist AND the insecurity of the debate creator.
"As I told another poster, it depends on what side of the arguement you publicly take as to whether your joke will be perceived as being funny or as one intended to wound."
Its impossible not to offend one side when you take the other side to the extreme. If I would have said the opposite, some thing about the severe inferiority of men I would have offended everyone on the opposite side of this debate.
That's the fun of taking such extreme stances, no matter which side you take you're bound to be offensive.
you really don't have any reason to talk to me unless you plan on bringing up something else
Why are you trying to decide when I have reason to talk?
It IS mockery
Your joke came across as mockery of someone experiencing sexism, which is just plain mean, not funny.
I'm ...mocking the absurdity of the ... insecurity of the debate creator.
What's the point of doing that? I don't know what the original issue was that offshooted into this thread, so I'm not taking sides on that, but that just sounds like being cruel to me.
If I would have said the opposite, some thing about the severe inferiority of men The opposite of sexism is NOT the inferiority of men (that would just be reverse sexism), but rather the equal worth of both genders. But you can feel free to joke about men's inferiority anytime, and I'll be sure to laugh. :)
"Why are you trying to decide when I have reason to talk?"
Well, if you don't plan on bringing something else up and you're NOT just debating me to inflate your ego then what possible reason do you have to continue talking to me? This isn't a matter of me "trying" to decide when you can talk, its a matter of YOUR motives.
For fuck sakes, do YOU even know why you're still talking to me?
"Your joke came across as mockery of someone experiencing sexism, which is just plain mean, not funny."
I don't care if it hurt you, sorry, I don't. get over it.
"What's the point of doing that? I don't know what the original issue was that offshooted into this thread, so I'm not taking sides on that, but that just sounds like being cruel to me."
Again, I don't care. You're wasting your time trying to instill guilt into me when I have no emotional investment in any of you.
"The opposite of sexism is NOT the inferiority of men (that would just be reverse sexism)"
That's what I'm talking about, sexism in the opposite direction.
"but rather the equal worth of both genders."
Even given this stance I would severely piss people off because the sexes are not equal.
"But you can feel free to joke about men's inferiority anytime, and I'll be sure to laugh. :)"
Then you're a hypocrite and have no business bitching about jokes made at your expense when you would just as soon laugh at equally demeaning jokes aimed at men.
Dude I can talk whenever the hell I want and say whatever the hell I want to say. Get over it and get over yourself. Why are you still talking to ME??
I don't care if it hurt you, sorry, I don't. get over it.
Whether you care or not is of no significance to me, but I am here to point out that what you did was MEAN.
the sexes are not equal
Clarfiy that point.
you're a hypocrite
Oh yeah, why's that? You are SO contradicting yourself now! You're the one who started out on this debate making a sexist joke. So if by your reasoning you can call me a hypocrite because I can laugh at a sexist joke than by your reasoning that means you ARE a sexist because you made a sexist joke. And FYI I do laugh at some sexist jokes aimed at both sexes.
"Clarfiy that point." << I'm going to ignore everything else you wrote because it is nothing but general stupidity and is going nowhere. Especially the part where you respond to being called a hypocrite. =/
Men and women are different. That which is different cannot be equal. Hell, men and women are not even comparable.
But, there are a few comparisons. Woman can give birth. She is superior to men in this regard. Woman seem more capable of love then men as a man's love is more of a physical necessity.
Woman can have multiple orgasms. Again, in this regard she is superior. Woman are also more patient. I strongly believe this to be a thing of nature, not conditioning.
On the flip side, men have a more natural capacity for intelligence. Yes, women can become intelligent, but it takes more development. Men are also naturally stronger and more curious.
Sexism is rooted in the first difference. Men cannot have children, women where chosen to. Man's part in childbirth is almost nothing. This is something blatantly obvious, it cannot be ignored. This inadequacy has sparked a great jealousy in man, the woman for nine months is dependent on a man and men have used this dependency as an opportunity to, historically, make woman a second class citizen.
This is an obsolete philosophy, but if you can't find humor in it then you haven't really learned anything from it because it still something you feel wounded by. If you let go of this victimization then the whole thing becomes a joke. It is something totally finished and all there is nothing to do with it except laugh at it.
So, I don't say that they are equal, that they should wear the same clothes, that woman should behave like men and vice versa. Man and woman are neither equal nor unequal, they are unique.
You are quick to defend an opinion that offers nothing to this debate. I wonder why that it is? Please make sure your comments offer us substance, otherwise why make them? As for responding so much later from the original date of the topic, I do apologize for my tardiness, I had just recenly joined the site, however truth does not have an expiration date.
So what is the logic you are using now - "When all else fails start with name calling" NICE! It might make you feel a slight bit better about yourself, in some small, sad way, but I didn't come here to engage in that sort of activity, so unless you want to truly debate, I won't respond to you anymore.
So what is the logic you are using now - "When all else fails, act like you're better than everyone else!" NICE! It might make you feel a slight bit better about yourself, in some small, sad way, but I didn't come here to engage in that sort of activity, so unless you want to truly debate, I won't respond to you anymore.
I believe in free speech. You apparently believe in censorship....this is the internet. People can say what they want. Just because they don't agree with you does not mean you have to be offended.
Your kind of thinking leads to fascism, sorry. Get over it sister
only new to this site... but found this in an attempt to tell ninemsn that their home page SUCKS!! can we not even look at general news without constant stories of 'victorias secret' models being on show like it's NEWS Pleeeaaassseeeee
so changed home page to Yahoo... let's hope that they don't let me down...
Maybe it is the fact that most of these webpages are full of IT NERDS and there is no balance with girls working there... I'm sooo over it.. at least with TV we can change channels... make a small stand .. change the channel.. change the web page.. don't buy magazines... most movies are full of tits.. we don't even see mens bare chests... i mean i don't care but just make it even.. for guys and girls.. :(
madame cherry summed up my feelings very well; I think that people should be able to say whatever they want. It's unfortunate, though, that people want to say these things- especially because most of the people demanding that women return to the kitchen don't believe it, wouldn't say it in real life, or don't have romantic relationships with ladies. the internet allows for anonymity; this lets people be the biggest jackasses they can be. I'm not saying that people shouldn't be allowed to say stupid things, just that they should refrain from doing so- just as they might in polite (or even impolite) real-life company.
So you believe in free speech, does that then mean you support racism and terrorism too? Those beliefs are also espoused on the internet. Saying you are sick of hearing something and saying it should not be allowed on the internet are two different things dude. It's crucial you learn the difference, or you are going to become a "yes man" - afraid to dislike anything because it's expression is free speech.
I did not say that comment in response to you. And I didn't mention racism and terrorism to rile people up, but rather to make a comparison and show that his line of thinking was faulty.
Just to be clear on this.. I do not love sexism. It's wrong and unfair.
But the debates are exciting, the men are rude and annoying but that's alright because woman can stick up for themselves. Men that believe our place is in the kitchen are dick heads (Excuse my language) but without sexism we're missing out on fairly exciting debates. I don't like the men that are sexist but it makes a good debate :)
You have choosen the wrong side of the arguement, my dear. If you do not support sexism, but enjoy the debate than you belong on the other side. It's as though you think of yourself as not being a racist, but can totally laugh at racist jokes. And then when somebody asks you for your stance and asks, "Are you a racist?" You say, "Yes." What do you really believe here?
Well I think we can officially count your views out, as you don't seem to have a moral code in line with the rest of general society "I don't object to just about anything on the internet - violence, ageism, sexism, speciesism, ableism, racism."
You stated that "I don't object to just about anything on the internet - violence, ageism, sexism, speciesism, ableism, racism." 99% of society objects to 1 or more of the things you listed, so I don't think your opinion is very representative of society or of being normal. Maybe they don't object to it specifically being on the internet, but I don't think that's really what's at issue here.
That's what this site is - a debating site! It's not a site for me to list other opinions - or the opinions of the majority - but rather my own opinions!
I cant say I love sexism, but if women want men to treat them as equals then they should realize that men make sexist comments about each other as a daily means of communication. If you were a man you would be told to grow a cock and stop bitching. If I said this to you I'm sure it would cause offense. Maybe you should try and think of it from a male perspective if its a male opinion you wish to gain, not all things said are vindictive some are purely in jest. The difficulty that I would see would be the fact that the typed word is devoid of emotion making it impossible to portray the message as intended. Oh and some people are just assholes so grow a cock and stop bitching. (Said ironically)
You may consider it a trivial difference, but phrases like 'grow a cock' still promote the idea that being male is inherently better than being female. That particular phrase implies the recipient doesn't have one, which is understood to be a bad. In that sense, yes, it is sexist, but the sexism is not really directed at men in general as the victim.
I clearly wrote (said ironically) For those that would not be able to understand where I was coming from. My point was personified by your inability to see irony.
So you meant your entire statement ironically and not just the last sentence? If that is the case, then I am not sure anymore what point you intended to make.
From where did you gleam the idea that I meant my entire statement ironically. It was only the last line, which as you can see I illustrate its irony to show that the written word is devoid of emotion and can be taken in the wrong context. I myself was not trying to be sexist. I was simply pointing out that although some peoples views may be sexist not all views that seem sexist are intended that way as the intent of the commentator may be humorous.
I was not addressing your last sentence, but your entire argument, so when you responded that it was meant ironically, I don't think I can be blamed for assuming we were referring to the same thing.
I am pointing out that the sexist language men use with each other is still derogatory towards women and so it's not some different type of sexism that women are not exposed to. I said nothing about the humorous intent or lack thereof.
OK, but the ball is in the womens court when it comes to being offended and if the op is sick of sexism on line then there really is nothing she can do about it. You can't explain to someone that is going to get hurt by things like this that they need to toughen up a bit. The world is a weird and dangerous place where freedom of speech is a right fought for in the western world, a world in which uptight people (not insinuating you) get their backs up and moan and piss and cry about it. Whereas people that are sound tend to be laid back and realize that sticks and stones..... you get the idea.
Women are the primary victims of sexism. Why is the ball in their court, and why do they need to 'toughen up a bit' instead of speaking out when they see someone saying something degrading to women? Language is a powerful tool and its effects should not be minimized.
(Some) Women are the primary victims, Some guys get offended by it too but as a gender are conditioned to not be so. The ball is in their court as there is no remedy to this situation at present and I mean only the women that are offended as I do not refer to all women. Speaking out on this subject is anyones right but will only end in farce when the Internet is the tool of communication.
All women are affected, not just some. Some are conditioned to barely be conscious of it, and some chose to pretend it isn't happening.
Most men are not offended because they are not the victims of the majority of negative sexist material. It puts them in a position of power, and although I know most men are not selfish and mean enough to consciously want that, many of them react strongly if anyone tries to disrupt the status quo that benefits them.
I do not think it is the job of the marginalized group to toughen up and ignore it when society is discriminating against them. I recognize the futility of debating with everyone on every misogynistic thing everywhere, but I don't think ignoring it wholesale is the right tactic.
I didn't Know whether to dispute or support on this one as I agree with a lot of your points. I think however we are arguing two points here you are stating that it shouldn't be tolerated and it shouldn't. My point is that it is happening, and that it would benefit the insulted to try and take it on the chin as the world is unfair and a lot of people get themselves worked up when just chilling out would be more beneficial to them in the end, besides not all things said are intended to insult
"not all things said are vindictive some are purely in jest" absolutely true, but if what you were saying was purely in jest you would be supporting the OTHER side of the arguement. Said on this side it certainly is vindictive. :)-
its the way our world is run. women are like mind behind the operation and the guys are the face of the project making fools of themselves. im okay with that. it what people dont see or give credit for things that women do that makes the world so great. like do you think the house cleaned itself, i think not! do you think my head just decided to look amazing, i think not! see men dont get it. they are simple and im not saying to be insulting they really are. you really need to play in out for them step by step. women you can give them a million things to do and they will do it by the time the day is over. men you give them one thing to do and it will take them a month with constant nagging. so dont feel to bad. one day women will get fed up sitting in the background and men wont know what to do with themselves
I just think the internet world is full of mostly idiots that can't win a debate without using foul language or resorting to some sort of attack. I don't think sexism is used anymore or less than any other attack of someone losing a debate. I voted I love sexism because I don't really see words on an internet site as affecting someone, if it does affect the person it is that person's problem and you let the idiot win, man or woman.
I think that what you say is true to a degree. We do have to take personal responsiblity for not letting other people "get our goat", and I think this becomes easier to do the older you are and the better you know yourself. But to young people out there it's not enough to say harmful words on a computer screen don't affect you or shouldn't affect you. A young person is developing their self concept and learning about the world around them. Their JOB in developing to adulthood is to be affected by what others say. And of course negative words have some effect on everyone. Why do you think there are ad compaigns out there against flaming and negative online behaviour? It's not because this is desierable behaviour. It's just harmful.
Which would you rather teach a woman to cope with the words of others, "don't let what others say affect you because everyone has things said to them" or "it's because you are a woman."?
Our JOB would be to teach the former and not stoop to the latter.
The former teaches everyone goes through it and you will make it, the latter is a cop out used by losers in life looking for an excuse.
You only offered two options for teachings and neither of them satisified me. I would teach a female the principles of "Yes you will experience sexism because you are female" "No sexism is not an acceptable world view- fight against it when you see it" "You are quite different than a man in more ways than simple anatomy, but never LESS than a man" "Do not let other's sexist views color your view because sexism is very prevalant and is encountered frequently in modern day society"
And while you immediately stated what one would teach a daughter, you failed to mention how sexism negatively impacts males. Look at societies where women expereince extreme sexism. What do you see? Do you see humanity at its best? I think not. Negative lanugeage and negatvie beliefs negatively effect everyone.
Maybe what you offered as teachings exemplify a a more male way of thinking - "Don't let it affect you, toughen up, and you can overcome it". And while this line of thought certainly does have merit, it's certainly not the only approach. You seem to contradict yourself though when you say not to stoop to the idea of "it's because you are a woman" but then publicly stand on the side of the opinion that supports "discrimination or devaluation based on a person's sex".
I stand on what side? I chose the only other option because I don't believe sexism is as prevelant as the question infers and yes I think many play the card way too much and early in a debate because that may be the only card they can play.I think your view of "sexism is very prevalant and is encountered frequently in modern day society" sends a very sad outlook to young women.
You are not making sense to me. You are suggesting I am sending a harsh outlook to young women on the prevalance of sexism, but yet your post is tagged "I love sexism!" What message are you trying to send to young women with that tag? Please explain.
My post isn't tagged I love sexism,it was the only CHOICE other than your outlook of everything is sexism.I had to put my argument somewhere and maybe that was your plan, who-ever spoke against you was tagged with the "I love sexism" tag and you had an instant win. Again, I choose this side of the argument rather than the other outlook that everything is about sexism.If there was a choice of seixsm is a victim mentality mostly in the mind of the accuser I would have put my answer there.
You need to be corrected, I do not believe "everything is sexism" (who ever said I did?), but I do believe sexism exists and it's a bad thing to be fought against. The person who started the debate was speaking about her personal experience, and I am sure many women here can relate to having dealt with sexism in their personal experience. Why is it that because a person expresses being tired of being on the receiving end of sexism you you label them a victim who is only experiencing sexism in their mind? How can you know those two conditions are true without knowing all of the facts of what this person has been through? You CANNOT know it, so that tells me you are making your judgement here not on what is actually occurring, or has ocurred here, but based on your own personal bias. That's just not going to lead you to have a solid, strong position here, one that you can logically defend.
Whenever you stated "sexism is very prevalant and is encountered frequently in modern day society" ,how can you know all the facts?
You ask me how I can know without knowing what individuals have been through, I ask you how can you know the exact reason things are done to women without knowing what the men go through? You can't so does that diminish your opinion, obviously not.
EVERYONE is discriminated in some way,blaming it immediately on sexism and saying it is " very prevalant and is encountered frequently in modern day society" screams to me personally of a victim mentality.
I tend to look at the glass as half full.
Now if you want to protest the treatment of women in countries where women are treated nowhere near as they are in the states I would believe sexism is prevalant.
As I said, you cannot have a solid, strong opinion here because you are working from personal bias, not logic. You said, "I ask you how can you know the exact reason things are done to women without knowing what the men go through?" What specifically are you talking about here? Are you defending men behaving in a sexist way because we don't know what they are going through? C'mon!! I don't care what a man is going through when he behaves like a sexist and I don't think anyone should. And if that is what you are stating than you are defending sexism which just a few posts ago you said you weren't.
You are not looking at the glass half full if you cannot even truly see if there is water in it.
"You said, "I ask you how can you know the exact reason things are done to women without knowing what the men go through?" What specifically are you talking about here?"
It was an attempt to use your own logic against you but went way over your head, not because you are a woman,just because it did.
Let me try this.
You stated that you would or are teaching young women "
sexism is very prevalant and is encountered frequently in modern day society" .
Are you not letting your personal bias work from you? EXACTLY
You are attacking the very thing you are using.
I am simply trying to state that sexism as well as racism as well as overweightism, etc... is used way too much in our society.
You simply pointed out that you can use your bias but others cannot,which in my opinion is a cop out.
HUH? You have me confused! Your tag at the very bottom of your post states "I love sexism". People post on that side of the arguement, but then say "well I don't really love sexism". Well you do if publicly you are taking the side that says you do. If you don't love sexism than tag your post differently. If you want to debate weather people use the idea of sexism as a cop out, than support it with facts and concrete ideas. But don't stand here and say you don't support sexism but then take the side of the debate that says you do because all that does is make you look like a person who is talking out of both sides of your mouth.
The tagging of one's argument changes their argument for you???????
The fact that individuals don't change the "TAG" makes you disregard all their typed words?
Who in the hell even focuses on the tag?
If you focus on people's tag "COVER", maybe you support taggism.
How about focusing on the words of people rather than what they are tagged. Tagging you as a woman offends you and I would surely think you wouldn't judge peole on their tag.
There , I entered a new tag just for you and to be honest,I look at individuals arguments not "TAGS".
That depends, how sick of it are you? Regardless, this debate is unashamedly biased. The only option you gave the opposition to write under was 'I love sexism!'. From this I conclude that you are a saggy-breasted feminist and that you hate men because you cannot get one.
I am not sexist, but I despise feminists. You profess to seek equality, yet you believe all men to be intellectually inferior, egotistical, narcissistic 'pigs'. If that is not sexism, then I do not know what is.
Honey, let me tell you a little something about me- I don't hate men. Quite the contrary! I LOVE men, but I also want to see them, us, all of us, our society, at it's best. And we are not at our best when we discriminate and devalue half of our society. As far as having a man, I have a man alright, and he's a real hottie, not that that's anyone's concern here. Let's try not making this personal though, because then that
makes the whole debate petty and small and I'd like to speak of larger issues. I didn't set up the original debate so I didn't give the choices of what the opposing position is called but if I had, the opposing position would have been labeled "I love sexism because I have a small brain, among other things".
I think men are intellectually inferior? Egotistical? Says who? I do not hold those opinions at all. But I do know that sexism exists and as a woman you have to deal with it. And it's not a good thing and it's something to be spoken out AGAINST not FOR.
Honey, let me tell you a little something about me
Please, don't call me honey.
And we are not at our best when we discriminate and devalue half of our society.
That is an exaggeration. Women are not devalued. The main area that is targeted as discriminatory is the workforce, correct? Beyond that, sexism is a personal opinion and cannot be banned. There is no law in the US or EU that allows for employers to prefer one sex to another when it comes to employment. Also of interest is the Forbs list of billionaires, there you will see that the only woman on the list inherited her wealth from her late husband. I will not generalize based on this, but you can see where sexists base their argument that women are inferior in business.
I love sexism because I have a small brain, among other things
If I made that 'I love Feminism because I have a large brain and small breasts', that would be regarded as sexist. It works both ways Ma'am.
men are intellectually inferior? Egotistical? Says who?
This Google search reveals many sites I would deem as sexist towards men, but do you see me starting a debate about it? Get over it, sexism happens on both sides, but men rarely complain about it, because we don't give a shit.
I do not hold those opinions at all. But I do know that sexism exists and as a woman you have to deal with it.
And what reason would you give for the existence of sexual discrimination, without holding men accountable?
it's something to be spoken out AGAINST not FOR.
In your opinion. I do not agree with sexism, but everybody has a right to an opinion. Removing somebody's right to an opinion is just another form of discrimination.
"That is an exaggeration. Women are not devalued."
Then why is a woman pressured by society to change her name upon marriage but not a man? Sounds like patriarchy. And don't get me started on the image of the female body. Devalued doesn't even cover it. All women are, are things to look at that help around the house and make sons.
"Beyond that, sexism is a personal opinion and cannot be banned."
Just as racism is a personal opinion and cannot be banned but it should not be tolerated.
"Also of interest is the Forbs list of billionaires, there you will see that the only woman on the list inherited her wealth from her late husband. I will not generalize based on this, but you can see where sexists base their argument that women are inferior in business."
You infer that women are inferior at something dominated by men for 6,000 years (because just 40 years ago women were allowed to enter the workforce)? Well that's misogynistic.
"I love sexism because I have a small brain, among other things
If I made that 'I love Feminism because I have a large brain and small breasts', that would be regarded as sexist."
You really didn't have to add the last part about small breasts. Now you're just picking on someone you deem inferior to you and you're attempting to devalue them using things you think might hurt their dignity ("small brain" and "small breasts"). Why don't you do some research on the history of feminism? Maybe the sexist of men can finally win the right to vote or enter the workforce or not be criticized by his breast size by the opposite sex.
"This Google search reveals many sites I would deem as sexist towards men, but do you see me starting a debate about it? Get over it, sexism happens on both sides, but men rarely complain about it, because we don't give a shit."
Men also didn't have to face 6,000 years of patriarchy and oppression based on their sex, only achieving explicit freedom of sexism just 40 years ago, still fighting implicit sexism and some other forms of explicit sexism today. Would you like it if someone told you you were inferior because the only thing you were good at was lifting furniture? What if an entire society thought like that? What if the world thought like that? You don't know what it's like to feel like somehow you're less of a human being because you were born with a uterus.
"I do not agree with sexism, but everybody has a right to an opinion. Removing somebody's right to an opinion is just another form of discrimination."
But that opinion hurts. It can create stereotypes. It is unwelcoming to an entire sex. That's half the human population. I have the right to be respected as an equal just as much as you do and my sex shouldn't get in the way of our friendship. I don't view you lesser than me just because you're a man and I expect the same respect in return. A misogynistic opinion destroys the representation of someone, where everything that person does is held accountable for their entire sex. It's a form of discrimination. It can lead to harassment. It can ultimately destroy everything humanity has worked so hard for.
Then why is a woman pressured by society to change her name upon marriage but not a man?
Because marriage is a Christian institution (in this case), and the Christian faith is inherently misogynistic. It does not reflect the attitude of general society.
And don't get me started on the image of the female body.
Males have evolved to find the image of the female body an inherently sexual one. It is impossible to revert this.
All women are, are things to look at that help around the house and make sons.
Women generally comprising one half of the population of any given nation, it is surely not beyond their capacity to resist objectification. Indeed, I submit that no such general suppression could have been maintained, nigh everywhere and through most of human history, without some inherent meekness on their part.
Just as racism is a personal opinion and cannot be banned but it should not be tolerated.
Racism is more than an opinion, as sexism is. It is an evolved trait. It ought, like other natural traits, to be conquered by philosophy and not by force.
You infer that women are inferior at something dominated by men for 6,000 years (because just 40 years ago women were allowed to enter the workforce)?
What is this "allowed"? Why must women be "allowed" by men to do anything, if women are equal to men? How can one equal force dominate another without its collusion?
You really didn't have to add the last part about small breasts.
I did. If you read the argument to which I answered, you would observe a reference to small penises, to which my statement about breasts was an obvious reaction.
Now you're just picking on someone you deem inferior to you and you're attempting to devalue them using things you think might hurt their dignity
No, I was pointing out, in an ironic fashion, that mine opponent was doing so. Perhaps if you thought before you typed, this would become clear.
Why don't you do some research on the history of feminism?
What has this to do with my juxtaposition?
Maybe the sexist of men can finally win the right to vote or enter the workforce or not be criticized by his breast size by the opposite sex.
This is gibberish.
Men also didn't have to face 6,000 years of patriarchy and oppression based on their sex, only achieving explicit freedom of sexism just 40 years ago, still fighting implicit sexism and some other forms of explicit sexism today.
I acknowledge this to be the reason for our apathy.
Would you like it if someone told you you were inferior because the only thing you were good at was lifting furniture?
I'd just refuse to lift any more furniture, until the inertia of bookcases caused them to retract the appraisal.
What if an entire society thought like that?
Most of society are consumerist, dishonourable and uneducated fools, who cogitate with their reproductive organs and pray to spirits. I am more concerned by this, than by sexism.
You don't know what it's like to feel like somehow you're less of a human being because you were born with a uterus.
That is an exaggeration. It has nothing to do with the presence of a uterus.
But that opinion hurts.
The concept of "freedom of conscience" would mean little if it applied only to benign opinions.
That's half the human population.
Half the human population should not have taken six thousand years to do something about sexism.
I have the right to be respected as an equal just as much as you do
I endeavour to respect you, but your lack of intellect or understanding makes this a difficult undertaking.
I don't view you lesser than me just because you're a man and I expect the same respect in return.
I have strenuously declared that I do not regard women as morally inferior, but you have ignored these declarations.
It can ultimately destroy everything humanity has worked so hard for.
That is nonsense. The bulk of our progress was made during the millennia in which sexism was rampant and institutionalised. It is therefore impossible to demonstrate that sexism is likely to erase that progress.
The Internet (with some small exceptions) is nothing but a joke and should not be taken seriously. A great majority of sexist remarks on the Internet are for humor, of which i am guilty of finding amusement in.
I was going to say that intelligent, even enlightened folk, like those in CreateDebate, know that a woman's place is in the home barefoot, pregnant and making dinner..... but my wife is in the other room and I chickened out ;)
I agree this doesn't add anything to the debate. It just tells us that the original poster is promiscuous and has a higher probability of contracting a STD.
