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Debate Info

52
45
YES NO
Debate Score:97
Arguments:66
Total Votes:110
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 YES (34)
 
 NO (29)

Debate Creator

PrayerFails(11163) pic



Are liberal Democrats afraid of freedom?

Ameriphoia

YES

Side Score: 52
VS.

NO

Side Score: 45
4 points

They seem to trust government far more than they do the American people.

It makes sense to think that there needs to be law and order, it doesn't make sense to to think that that law and order go against the interests of people who do no harm to others.

Side: YES

Liberalism is about huge and parasitic government with more control over the electorate with intense central planning. Therefore, freedom and liberty are anathema to their values. They even may have nightmares about freedom.

Utopian liberals view the Constitution not as safeguard to our liberties, but as an annoying obstacle to their utopian goals of concentrating power and central planning in the federal government to empower them and implement their grandiose visions. Liberals only champion the Constitution when it serves their larger ends like the use of the misinterpreted Commerce and General Welfare Clause.

Side: YES
iamdavidh(4856) Disputed
3 points

... you know nothing of liberalism apparently. >_<

Side: NO
3 points

Actually, I know a lot about liberalism, I was one at one time myself some 7 years ago until I was directed towards reality with a book called The Law by Frederic Basitat. Liberals live in fantasy land in collectivity.

Side: YES
Akulakhan(2985) Disputed
3 points

Guess what; not everyone who doesn't agree with you is therefore some form of power Nazi.

Side: NO
Sitara(11082) Clarified
1 point

Both sides have good and bad. .

Side: YES
SexyBanana(306) Disputed
1 point

That is true, only if you change "liberal" with "conservative".

Side: NO
1 point

It depends on the liberal democrat. I know it's so easy to slap a name on a group of people and act like they're all the same and have the same views and motivations.

And why is it so ingrained in human nature to believe that the other side hates everything good and wants evil? The picture/definition above is disappointing. Though it sometimes may seem that liberal democrats don't like America or Americans. It's not true for most people. It's quite tempting for me to think that(because it feels so right) and I used to think that way to be honest.

I like America + Liberals annoy me = Liberals hate america and everything good and they're a threat against those things.

A + B does not = C. If it did it wouldn't take much critical thinking, reasoning, or compromise on my part.

I could choose to be lazy and give into the prototypical bandwagon of conformity or I could accept the fact that my perception of the world is not pure truth.

So back to the question my answer would be: kind of.

What kind of freedom are we talking about?

A free market economy? Small government? This is clearly feared by the majority of those on the left. But of course they don't fear individual freedom. Though they may oppose certain things like gun rights etc. They could argue the same for those on the right.

Side: YES

In my experience most liberals conger up images of a fat white slob in a wife beeter sitting on his couch watching fox with a blank look on his face and drool on his chin, or "stupid white people" compositely and mindlessly buying whatever they see on TV while dumping their pills down the toilet, throwing trash out of their car windows, putting a cross on the wall in every room of their house and having a deep fear of sex and talking to their children, when the words "America" or "American" is uttered. To them that is what it means to be an "American"......but they are not stereotyping, they are to "open minded" for that!

Side: YES
1 point

Yes they seem to trust the government way to much. They seem to do way to much for people.

Side: YES

Democrats love the idea of coercion and hate the idea of freedom. They will never admit their love affair of government. Just go ask those over there. -------------------------------------------------------------------------->

Side: YES
1 point

Freedom of individuals to make their own choices and suffer the consequences, to spend their own money and suffer the cosequences, to eat what they want and suffer the consequences,etc,etc.

They believe that through legislation they can limit those consequences but this action takes aways one's freedoms.

Side: YES
1 point

Yes liberal democrats are afraid of freedom...........................................................

Side: YES
1 point

Yes, just like the conservative Republicans. ;)

Side: YES

Nobody hates freedom more than Democrats, WHY? Because they believe in the OMNIPOTENT GOVERNMENT.

Side: YES
1 point

You might want to say "Centrist Democrats", not "Liberal Democrats". Democrats are traitors to liberals just like Republicans are traitors to conservatives.

Side: YES
1 point

Most of them are. However most conservatives are too. Did you see how the government squirm when the leaks come out?

Side: YES

Yeah, this is why they are calling for a immediate extradition.----------------

Side: YES
1 point

I don't know why this showed up on the Active Debate list. Hahaha.

Side: YES
0 points

Ofcourse, beceause freedom is the enemy of their socialistic agendas!

Side: YES
iamdavidh(4856) Disputed
4 points

Okay. Prayerfails doesn't know what Liberalism is. Now you don't know what socialism is.

And will you fuck knobs quit serial downvoting me every time I come to one of prayerfails hate speaches?

Seriously. Sorry for interupting the paranoid "everyone's out to get me its the end of the world blah blah" circle jerk but at least someone has to talk sense to you morons.

Side: NO
1 point

You rock. :)

Side: NO
1 point

Actually, I do know what Liberalism is, remember it is the term you that government lovers stole from the true meaning of liberalism means.

Side: YES
Sitara(11082) Clarified
1 point

You say socialist like it is a bad thing. .

Side: YES
0 points

Yes all liberal democrats are afraid about the freedom.

sbuckinghams

Supporting Evidence: Table lamps (www.floorlampsoutlet.co.uk)
Side: YES
2 points

We're just not insane paranoids who think government is "out to get us."

Interestingly studies show it's conservatives who base majority of choices out of fear.

Side: NO
ThePyg(6737) Disputed
3 points

What studies?

In pursuit of my degree I've come across a couple of studies showing that Conservative types have larger Amygdalas that can attribute to fear and other emotions. However, this doesn't prove that Conservatives will make choices out of fear.

As well, I find it quite paranoid to believe that big government is necessary to keep the world from crumbling (explaining the regulations on guns, drugs, the market, sexual lifestyles, etc.)

Everyone seems to have their reasoning for why government must take over. But in the realm of thought of Classical Liberals, a powerful government is far more detrimental than a current human stain. Drugs seemed like a problem back when they were legal, especially things like morphine, cocaine, and heroin, but the attempt of government to keep these things out of our hands has greatly harmed society far more. It is not about fearing that the government is out to get us, it's about recognizing that government should be greatly limited in its power over us no matter how bad things might seem at first.

Side: YES
iamdavidh(4856) Disputed
2 points

http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2008/09/fearmongering-h/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biology_and_political_orientation

Yes, that the section of the brain which is associated with fear is more active during decision making does have a correlation as to whether one is conservative or whether one is liberal. Of course there could be other reasons, but if you do not see the obvious and unfounded fear prayerfails harbors toward all things collectively done from street lights to school you've not been paying attention... which would be odd because you're one of the few to reply to his deluge of I-hate-government debates.

And I fundamentally disagree with the very premise constantly put forth that liberals believe government "must take over."

Some things people collectively do better. I argue roads, schools, military, enforcing law, putting out fire, etc. Some things they do not, like selling clothes or doing phone surveys, whatever it may be. And there are still more things where a delicate balance between private and public is desirable, to varying degrees. Either way though we are government so its not some foreign evil entity taking over, it's collectively agreed upon mass populace takeover we call government.

Because the extreme position of "all government is evil" has so taken root over the past couple of decades (among those with an IQ 6-10 points lower than the national average and whom also base decisions on fear I might add to be half as insulting but more based in reality than this entire debate), does not necessarily or in reality equate the opposite being true of liberals.

It's only when compared to the extremes prayerfails exhibits that my position is automatically assumed to be equally extreme. The equivalence is false.

Government can be a useful tool and offers the regular people a means to some power when it is some form of democracy and corruption is limited. We are one such country luckily. There is no reason to not wisely use government. Knee-jerk "all government is bad" idealogies are not wise, and I suspect far more based in fear of government than any form of liberalism is based in the utterly silly notion of "fear of freedom."

Side: NO
1 point

Great argument. What is your degree? Are you studying Psych? Neuroscience?

Side: YES
1 point

We're just not insane paranoids who think government is "out to get us."

Tu ne cede malis, sed contra audentior ito!!

Side: YES
iamdavidh(4856) Disputed
2 points

lmao

We're government. It is what we make it. It's not some evil thing to "proceed against"

That you think it is despite the length humanity has come with government from longer lives to less poverty, kinda backs up my theory you're paranoid and the one who is afraid.

Side: NO
1 point

no this smells like redneck country to me!!!! who with me 4 MORE YEARS!!!

Side: NO

Prior to engaging in any sort of debate, I ask the debate creator to please specify his or her definition of the following two terms: liberal Democrat, freedom.

Thanks.

(Glad to see some familiar names among the active community)

Side: NO
1 point

Whatever? There is no need to define these terms because liberal Democrat and freedom are self explanatory and there is always GOOGLE.

Side: YES
beinglostats(602) Clarified
1 point

I haven't been on the site in some time. It was more typical of past debates to be more clear on terminology. In addition, I have not exchanged words with you and wanted to gauge your perceptions on either of these points.

Assessing the different talking points in this debate has led me to the conclusion that your negligence to include a clear definition of freedom (at the most basic level) has limited the likelihood for a clear and logical debate to occur. (perhaps that was your intention)

Freedom is not self explanatory. "Ordinary speech, being careless about details, frequently causes somebody to do something or permits a tree to fall. By failing to discriminate between the deontic, the alethic, and the mechanical, common usage makes the problem of freedom insoluble--or worse, meaningless (Gill 1971)." Your limited viewpoint is the exact reason why much of this debate lacks substance.

To define freedom, three postulates are required:

1. The self-contradictory cannot exist.

2. A concept and its complement exhaust a universe of discourse.

3. Every permission corresponds to a conscious action, and every conscious action can be stated as a permission (Gill 1971).

If I were to engage in your limited view of freedom, I would argue that when people speak of freedom, they mean self-control (Hadamard 1945). Within self-control there is a need for self-consistency therefore, Freedom is decision by necessary norms.

If I were to define liberal democrats using your criterion and search methods, this would lead me to the wikipage titled "liberal democrats"- a UK based political party. Wikipedia lists their platform as follows: constitutional and electoral reform,progressive taxation, wealth taxation,environmentalism, human rights laws, cultural liberalism, banking reform and civil liberties.

Furthermore, their ideology or philosophy is to build and safeguard a fair, free and open society, in which they seek to balance the fundamental values of liberty, equality and community, and in which no one shall be enslaved by poverty, ignorance or conformity.

Based on the platform, ideology and definition of freedom as a decision by necessary norms. I would say they are practicing the very decisions to create necessary norms.

Are they afraid of freedom?

Perhaps, however if your intention was to insinuate that being afraid meant that they would not pursue decisions to create necessary norms, I would counter that liberal democrats own platform and ideology stand against that insinuation and therefore are not afraid of freedom.

Works Cited

Gill, John G. (1971) The Definition of Freedom. Ethics 82(1):1-20.

Hadamard, Jacques. (1945) The Psychology of Invention in the Mathematical Field. Princeton, N.J.

Wikipedia. Liberal Democrats. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_Democrats. Accessed online on June 15, 2012.

Side: YES

To define freedom, three postulates are required:

1. The self-contradictory cannot exist.

2. A concept and its complement exhaust a universe of discourse.

3. Every permission corresponds to a conscious action, and every conscious action can be stated as a permission (Gill 1971).

I would argue that when people speak of freedom, they mean self-control (Hadamard 1945). Within self-control there is a need for self-consistency therefore, Freedom is decision by necessary norms.

If I were to define liberal democrats using your criterion and search methods, this would lead me to the wikipage titled "liberal democrats"- a UK based political party. Wikipedia lists their platform as follows: constitutional and electoral reform,progressive taxation, wealth taxation,environmentalism, human rights laws, cultural liberalism, banking reform and civil liberties.

Furthermore, their ideology or philosophy is to build and safeguard a fair, free and open society, in which they seek to balance the fundamental values of liberty, equality and community, and in which no one shall be enslaved by poverty, ignorance or conformity.

Based on the platform, ideology and definition of freedom as a decision by necessary norms. I would say they are practicing the very decisions to create necessary norms.

Are they afraid of freedom?

Perhaps, however if your intention was to insinuate that being afraid meant that they would not pursue decisions to create necessary norms, I would counter that liberal democrats own platform and ideology stand against that insinuation and therefore are not afraid of freedom.

Works Cited

Gill, John G. (1971) The Definition of Freedom. Ethics 82(1):1-20.

Hadamard, Jacques. (1945) The Psychology of Invention in the Mathematical Field. Princeton, N.J.

Wikipedia. Liberal Democrats. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_Democrats. Accessed online on June 15, 2012.

Supporting Evidence: Gill, John G. (1971) The Definition of Freedom. Ethics 82(1):1-20. (www.jstor.org)

Side: NO
1 point

Liberals have worked to give voting rights to all people since the civil war. note: Republicans were more liberal at a point than republicans. but should on the opposing end, conservatives have been trying to take the rights aways from others. like women when i comes to contraceptives

Side: NO
1 point

Of course not. By opposition you would have at the other end of the spectrum conservative republican, which while claiming they want smaller government claiming individual rights at the same time dive head first into the pool of religious fascism which is a the bigger controlling factor than our government has ever been. While some would claim that the use of larger government indicates a fear of freedom, it is in fact the opposite when considering that the freedoms that have been gained by many groups of people have been due to democratic government continuing to fend off the conservative movements to place those groups under their thumb.(women, homosexuals, african-americans, the poor, etc.) While one could look at larger government and claim that democrats need to be "taken care of", it is in fact the best way for society as a whole and not just the elite few. Freedom cannot be only for those who can afford it and so the use of larger government to ensure freedom for everyone. An alternative question may be "are conservative republicans afraid of freedom" especially since real freedom would end the oppressive rich/poor society and pull them away from religious dogma.

Side: NO
1 point

Not as much as they're afraid of your loaded questions :I

Freedom is typically viewed as an universally cherished element in American society. The idea that you would go out of your way to post a question suggesting your fellow Americans on the other side of the isle do not share this same value as you is somewhat insulting.

Side: NO
1 point

no sir, I am not. As a liberal, I support freedom .

Side: NO
1 point

Well, no. And considering the laws that Republicans are trying to pass, and have passed, about limiting people's freedom to move into this country, limiting people's freedom to get married to who they love, and limiting people's freedom to birth control and abortion, I would not be saying the left is the party that is scared of freedom.

Side: NO
1 point

We are the ones who created freedom, why would we be afraid of it?

Side: NO

Just the opposite. Liberal Democrats love individual freedom for everybody. Just yesterday when the Supreme Court legalized Gay Marriage as the law of the land, Liberal Democrats were cheering.

Side: NO