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21
21
Yes No
Debate Score:42
Arguments:61
Total Votes:55
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 Yes (19)
 
 No (17)

Debate Creator

Surak(15) pic



Are transgender people legitimately the gender they say they are?

This debate is ultimately a semantic one regarding the meaning of gender. Does being born with a penis and XY chromosomes make you a boy/man? Why?
Does being born with and XX chromosomes make you a girl/woman? Why?

And if not, what is it that makes you a man or a woman and why?








FYI:This isn't about whether or not you like or dislike trans people, just if you agree with them on gender i.e., You can say no without hating trans people.

Yes

Side Score: 21
VS.

No

Side Score: 21
2 points

Legitimate is an interesting choice of word. Good listener has answered it well literally but I often think of effort and entitlement when I think of legitimacy. And certainly when we are born male or female there is not effort on our part. For a transgender person they must spend thousands on choosing their gender and go through significant personal hardship. I'd say their gender has a great deal of legitimacy.

Side: Yes

Since they can legally change their gender, it is considered legitimate.

This depends on which country you are referring to though.

Side: Yes
Amarel(5669) Clarified
1 point

They better insure, for there own sake, that their medical records keep the proper sex, whatever they say about gender.

Side: Yes
GoodListener(603) Clarified
1 point

It's available to see their former gender just like with a name change.

Side: Yes
1 point

Gender generally isn't referring to biological sex, it's the social and cultural differences associated with the biological sexes (masculinity and femininity). As such, yes a transgender person can be the gender they say they are but they of course cannot change their biological sex.

Side: Yes
Amarel(5669) Clarified
1 point

Do you think a legitimized woman who was born male has any duty to inform her partner prior to sex?

Side: Yes
WinstonC(1225) Clarified
1 point

"...a legitimized woman..."

This phrasing made me giggle. I don't think they have a legal duty to, no. They should tell their partner in theory and not doing so is asking for major trouble (including violence and death) if their partner ever finds out.

Side: Yes
1 point

Are transgender people legitimately the gender they say they are?

Hello S:

"Legitimately", as in LEGAL?? Sure they are. We don't have a Truth In Gender law.. Besides, do you go around "saying" what gender you are??? I don't think you do, and I don't think transgender people do either...

excon

Side: Yes
1 point

We don't have a Truth In Gender law.. Besides, do you go around "saying" what gender you are?

Sure we do. Ask the Olympic Committee. Your chromosomes don't match, you don't compete as a woman.

Side: No
1 point

Most primitive cultures have specific rituals to "become" a man or a woman. It seems that, for humans, since our early history, gender is not just about your biological features but also about assuming certain gender roles and duties within the society.

Now, "legitimate" means: "conforming to the law or to the rules". Laws and rules are social constructs written in ink; whenever any particular society legitimates gender transition then transgender people are legitimate...

Side: Yes
0 points

Hello S:

In this great FREE land of ours, you are FREE to BE anything you want to be... What do right wingers have against freedom????

excon

Side: Yes
1 point

In this great FREE land of ours, you are FREE to BE anything you want to be.

So you are free to be a child molester and a groper? You owe Roy Moore and Al Franken an apology then.

Side: No
rcarrash(18) Disputed
1 point

brontoraptor, you clearly do not understand the definition of freedom. Here's a quote from a U.S. Supreme Court, Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr., who said:

"The right to swing my fist ends where the other man's nose begins."

The general idea is that your freedom ends when another person's freedom begins. Child molesters and gropers are intruding the freedom of others, trans people don't

Side: Yes
1 point

Is self declaration proof of identity?

Side: No
excon(18260) Disputed
0 points

Is self declaration proof of identity?

Hello T:

Who do you have to PROVE your gender TO??? Has anybody asked YOU to prove yours???

excon

Side: Yes
cruzaders(325) Disputed
3 points

Normally no one has to because it is very visible, the problem arises when a man wearing a dress and lipstick claims to be a girl

Side: No
TzarPepe(763) Clarified
2 points

I identify as a taco salad.

Side: Yes
rcarrash(18) Disputed
0 points

Self-declaration is THE ONLY proof of identity. Identity exists only within the mind of the subject and, up to now, science has not been able to read the mind. So, the only way to know someone's identity is by listening to their self-declarations. Even when you apply for a legal ID or something you declare your name, your address, your nationality, et cetera and people believe you.

Now, we used to believe the external sexual characteristics of a person should always correspond to their desired social gender, we now know not always does, and the only way we can know if they correspont or not is through self-declaration.

Side: Yes
TzarPepe(763) Clarified
3 points

I am the Tzar, and I will be offended if people don't use my proper gender pronoun, which is "Tzar".

So what you are saying is that it all comes down to personal whim? I'm double checking my dictionary, and it seems like that makes identity arbitrary pretty conclusively.

I don't believe that because someone says something, that makes them what they say they are. In fact, I'm on the opinion that it is more likely that someone has a false sense of identity than an accurate sense of identity.

How many people actually take the time to really find themselves?

If you are declaring yourself to be the opposite sex of what your biology dictates, how can you be honest about the rest of yourself?

The root of these things is idolatry. That is what the scriptures say, and I agree with them. Obviously, something here is getting in the way of coming to grips with reality.

Preoccupation with sexual things is not good mental health. It's fetishistic.

Side: Yes
cruzaders(325) Disputed
0 points

Self declaration is not a proof of identity because it can be opposed to reality, what would you think of a person claiming that the sky is red? Or he has a vision problem or he is a wacko

"Identity exists only within the mind of the subject" = nope, someone claimed to identify as a taco salad does that make him one? No because it is not conform to reality

"you declare your name, your address, your nationality, et cetera and people believe you" because they are expecting you to say the truth, truth being what is conform to REALITY

I love the "we" as if humanity as a whole had decided that

To summarize they are people we should have pity for because they are so unsecure they think that changing their gender will resolve all their problems

Side: No
1 point

Legitimately as in according to the law? Depends on the country. Semantically? it depends on the language: in this dicussion the key word is gender, and in some languages sex and gender are the exact same thing. I may be wrong here but it seem that english was in such a case, and that its meaning "Gender generally isn't referring to biological sex, it's the social and cultural differences associated with the biological sexes (masculinity and femininity)"( curtesy to WinstonC for the definition) is relatively new. My point being that the question is not correctly posed (no disrespect intented)

Side: No
1 point

The only time that they are legitimately the gender they say they are is if they are one of only a handful of biological hermaphrodites. That is simple biology.

Side: No
1 point

No. They are the gender that biology assigned to them. Gender (and sex) is determined by our x/y chromosomes. If your chromosomes determine you are a female or a male, then that is your legitimate gender. Different case for intersex people.

Side: No
0 points

• Democrats support no restriction abortions!

• ...but Hilary Clinton...!

• Jesus love you...you're going to burn in hell!

• You fools!

• You anti Christian bigots!

• Republicans can do no wrong!

• Democrats can do no right!

• I masturbate to Donald Trump!

-FromWithin

Side: No
0 points

The fact that we have people asking such questions, shows the indoctrination of this political correct Progressive movement in this nation. You are doing exactly what the Left wants you to do. Fixate on their screwed up PC agendas.

We are 20 TRILLION in debt, record numbers of children living in broken homes, record numbers of unwed mothers living on welfare, record numbers of people living on food stamps, drug addictions everywhere, and what is this nation constantly talking about?

The latest unnatural abnormal sexual orientation of the month. This has been the fixation from the Progressive Left for decades now. This is why our nation is dying one step at a time.

These transgender people are totally dysfunctional. Rather than trying to sanction every unnatural sexual disorder as normal, forcing all public schools to allow boys in girls bathrooms, forcing every State to change their mrriage laws, etc. etc. it's time to ignore these vocal activists, and get on with the business of saving this nation from collapse, morally and fiscally.

It's time to remember the difference between equal rights, and sexual dysfunction.

Side: No
rcarrash(18) Disputed
1 point

Psychologists now believe that utter hate (like yours) against homosexual and transsexual people is a common result of a repressed homosexuality or transexuality of the "hater". Words like "unnatural", "abnormal" and statements such as the downfall of civilization due to letting a few people do what they want is a classic paranoid view of a person ill with hate.

No, the transgender community is not provoking the downfall of civilization. It is war, it is overpopulation, it is hundreds of years of exploitation of the natural environment. The problem is not the VERY FEW trans people, the problem is the other 20 TRILLION. We all are part of the problem.

Side: Yes
FromWithin(8241) Disputed
1 point

ROFFLOL, you just sited war, overpopulation, environment as the causes for our nation's problems.

So tell me how war, overpopulation and environmental issues caused that man and woman to have a one night hook up?

Tell me how those things caused a person to illegally take hard drugs and then get addicted?

Tell me how they made a person abuse alcohol and become an alcoholic?

Tell me how those things caused so many women to have sex with dead beat men who abandoned them after getting pregnant, and then running down to the welfare office to get tax payers to support them.

These are all moral issues and have NOTHING to do with your mindless excuses.

I never once said anything hateful to Gays or Transgender people. YOU ARE A HIDEOUS LIAR! I DON'T HATE ANYONE! FOOLS LIKE YOU MUST ALWAYS DEMONIZE ANYONE WHO SPEAKS OUT AGAINST YOUR POLITICAL CORRECT FANATICISM.

Newsflash, homosexuality is unnatural! Take biology again and learn something this time! Transgender people have disorders. Read medical books and learn something this time.

Stating the obvious facts of science is not hate but it is you showing your hate for anyone who dares speak common sense truth.

You are the brainwashed low end voters who swallow all this political correct nonsense.

I believe in treating all people with respect. I believe no one should be discriminated against for merely being different.

But that does not mean we sanction the unnatural abnormal sexual orientations as being natural. THEY WILL NEVER BE!

It is people like you who hate diversity such as our special Need's babies who you support testing for and killing.

Those innocent down syndrome children are being erradicated from our world simply for being diverse and different. Watch a Special olympic track meet, and see the inhumanity you support by looking at the faces of children who the Left says deserve to be tested for and killed.

You are the people filled with selfish hatred for those who do not look like or sound like you. You kill out of convienence and have the nerve to judge others for merely dissagreeing?

Side: No
0 points

nope. Gender does not refer to sexuality identity preference. it refers to the genitalia and chromosomes, exclusively.

porn industry is lobbying to our governments, because of sextoy sales, marijuana sales, cocaine sales, porn sales and the nature of them never working.

Side: No
rcarrash(18) Disputed
1 point

Gender is a word and the meaning of words can change with time. Yes, Sex and Gender were used as synonyms in the past, but not anymore. Since transgender people started to speak out their minds, psychologists needed to acknowledge that, for some, what was inside the brain would not correspond to their chromosomes and genitalia. They chose to stop using sex and gender as synonyms but to assign them different locations in the body. The current convention now is that sex is on your chromosomes and genitalia, while gender is inside your brain. Times change, words change, it is not rocket science and it is not a big deal

Side: Yes