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Are transgender people legitimately the gender they say they are?
This debate is ultimately a semantic one regarding the meaning of gender. Does being born with a penis and XY chromosomes make you a boy/man? Why?
Does being born with and XX chromosomes make you a girl/woman? Why?
And if not, what is it that makes you a man or a woman and why?
FYI:This isn't about whether or not you like or dislike trans people, just if you agree with them on gender i.e., You can say no without hating trans people.
Legitimate is an interesting choice of word. Good listener has answered it well literally but I often think of effort and entitlement when I think of legitimacy. And certainly when we are born male or female there is not effort on our part. For a transgender person they must spend thousands on choosing their gender and go through significant personal hardship. I'd say their gender has a great deal of legitimacy.
You’ll find the only dispute in this thread is yours. The topic is gender. I mentioned sex. Legal legitimacy doesn’t change reality. Some things just don’t change.
Gender generally isn't referring to biological sex, it's the social and cultural differences associated with the biological sexes (masculinity and femininity). As such, yes a transgender person can be the gender they say they are but they of course cannot change their biological sex.
This phrasing made me giggle. I don't think they have a legal duty to, no. They should tell their partner in theory and not doing so is asking for major trouble (including violence and death) if their partner ever finds out.
"do you think there is a moral duty; or is it simply a safety issue?"
I don't think it's morally right to not let your partner know about something so important to your relationship.
"If lesbian believes she is having sexual relations with another woman who she then finds out was born a man, did the lesbian consent?"
Yes, people lie to each other all the time, especially when courting for the purpose of one night stands. If consensual sex can be turned into rape by the omission of any information that, if known, would have prevented the sex act from taking place then we're opening Pandora's box.
If a man pretends to be his twin brother in order to trick his brothers girlfriend into sex, you wouldn’t support legal recourse for her?
You acknowledge that gender identity is of paramount importance to a relationship, why not important in the short run as well? Why is the sexual orientation of the misled person less important than the gender identity of the misleader?
"If a man pretends to be his twin brother in order to trick his brothers girlfriend into sex, you wouldn’t support legal recourse for her?"
I would, because they lied about who they are, not about their features. Individual A pretended to be individual B in order to con individual B's girlfriend. If a woman only sleeps with rich men, and a poor courtier purposefully gives several signals that he is wealthy (or even outright lies) in order to sleep with them, is this rape?
"You acknowledge that gender identity is of paramount importance to a relationship, why not important in the short run as well?"
I view one night stands as people simply using each other as masturbatory devices. The male is effectively an animate dildo and the female is effectively a living flesh-light. As such, it's only really important if the person finds out. This isn't to say I condone such deceptive behavior because I don't and as aforementioned the consequences for both parties if the truth emerges are likely to be major. The straight person is likely to be mentally scarred and the trans person is likely to be physically scarred.
"Why is the sexual orientation of the misled person less important than the gender identity of the misleader?"
I don't view the gender identity of the misleader as more important than the sexual orientation of the misled. Nice use of the Socratic method by the way.
You said that “Gender...(is) the social and cultural differences associated with the biological sexes”. This isn’t inaccurate, though I think you overly separate the social role from biology when you move on to say that people can change their gender.
First, this whole discussion has been around the role of being upfront about such a change. The is because people whose gender fits their biology are in fact different from people whose gender does not. The fact that trans women are not in fact the same as women leads to there being different considerations concerning them, as this conversation has illustrated.
The fact that something is a social construct does not mean it is completely fluid. Language is a social construct, but you cannot make up gibberish and expect to be understood. The social construction of gender roles doesn’t negate the biological ties that gender has to sex. They cannot be completely severed.
I accept that most of what is considered gender is biological in nature. Gender differences largely exist as a result of differences in biology between the sexes, with only a few social constructions such as pink for females and blue for males. Gender roles, after all, are largely the manifestation of biological sex differences within a given culture. Interestingly, trans people even need hormone treatment and surgeries; biological changes, to exemplify their chosen gender.
It isn't accurate to call yourself a man if you have XX chromosomes, it's accurate to say you're a masculine woman (or a trans-man). Male/female can mean biologically a man or woman or can mean exemplifying qualities of that gender. If someone calls themselves the opposite sex in terms of "I am a male" it's an incorrect statement whereas if they say "I am male" meaning in terms of gender characteristics it can be correct. It would be far simpler if they simply said "masculine" and "feminine" given that these terms exist exclusively for this purpose, rather than using the biological terms male and female. However, I believe there is a purposeful ideological push to conflate gender and biological sex, presumably to make trans people feel more validated.
I would complicate things further by going into how gender can refer to biological sex but this post is already enough of a ramble as it stands.
I was simply speaking of what is factually true, I'm perfectly willing to play into trans-people's fantasies when requested (oh my that sounded risqué).
As I said to Amarel though, not telling romantic partners your biological sex is asking for major trouble.
Are transgender people legitimately the gender they say they are?
Hello S:
"Legitimately", as in LEGAL?? Sure they are. We don't have a Truth In Gender law.. Besides, do you go around "saying" what gender you are??? I don't think you do, and I don't think transgender people do either...
Most primitive cultures have specific rituals to "become" a man or a woman. It seems that, for humans, since our early history, gender is not just about your biological features but also about assuming certain gender roles and duties within the society.
Now, "legitimate" means: "conforming to the law or to the rules". Laws and rules are social constructs written in ink; whenever any particular society legitimates gender transition then transgender people are legitimate...
brontoraptor, you clearly do not understand the definition of freedom. Here's a quote from a U.S. Supreme Court, Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr., who said:
"The right to swing my fist ends where the other man's nose begins."
The general idea is that your freedom ends when another person's freedom begins. Child molesters and gropers are intruding the freedom of others, trans people don't
Hey, I don't think that it is necessary to inspect the genitals of the people I encounter, I'm just pretty sure that saying you are something doesn't make you something.
This is clearly some type of identity fallacy.
All definitions courtesy of Merriam-Webster...
Gender is defined as...
"a subclass within a grammatical class (such as noun, pronoun, adjective, or verb) of a language that is partly arbitrary but also partly based on distinguishable characteristics (such as shape, social rank, manner of existence, or sex) and that determines agreement with and selection of other words or grammatical forms"
So what, it is basically about what people call you. That is where the arbitrary element comes in. So no, it isn't intrinsic that they are who they say they are no matter how many people play along with it.
My gender is Tzar. To not refer to me in the regal fashion is a clear violation of proper etiquette. You don't hear me throwing a fit about it.
It looks to me like technically you can say someone getting a big promotion is transgender. Instead of being referred to as "hey you" they are now referring to by everyone as "sir", "mam", or "boss". OR well, more accurately, they are in the transitional phase of people getting used to calling then "sir", "mam", or "boss". Isn't that what transgenderism is about? Waiting for the world to bow down and agree to YOUR grammatical forms? I don't have to call you doctor because you have a PHD. I don't have to call you "Mr." because you insist on it. Maybe I'll just give you a nickname. Call you shish kebab from now on.
Another definition....
"the behavioral, cultural, or psychological traits typically associated with one sex"
typically associated.... See, there is nothing solid or objective about gender. It's mostly determined by prejudice.
But there is one definition that is very simple.
"Sex"
What is "Sex"?
"either of the two major forms of individuals that occur in many species and that are distinguished respectively as female or male especially on the basis of their reproductive organs and structures"
There you have it folks. Depending on the definition being used, your gender is either determined at birth or COMPLETELY ARBITRARY.
I don't disagree with ANY of the science you presented. In MY mind, and yours too, if you're born with a tallywacker, you're a guy..
But, that's YOU and ME making that determination. In this great land of ours, we're FREE to do so.. But, a transgender person is also FREE to make a determination about HIMSELF and who the hell are we to say he's wrong???
I am a human being with the God given right to free speech. A God given right recognize by the constitution ruling the land of the territory I live in.
I think I have very right to tell someone they are wrong.
Instead, I'm going to tell them that they very clearly have a fetish.
And, as long as you are a socially functional human being in society, people should leave you alone. No one has the right to force you into not being one.
Yeah, but people certainly have the right to dispute what I'm saying, and if you believe otherwise you are just as big of a tyrant as the one who demands that everyone respect their arbitrary declarations of self identity.
It is a courtesy to accept someone's stated identity. Someone can tell me their name even, that doesn't mean I am obligated to accept their name. Maybe I think their name is dumb. Maybe I'd rather call them corndog. What up corndog? It has happened to me before. Most people call me by my last name. One in a hundred so people have issue with that for some reason. Oh well, if you don't want to call me by the name everyone else calls me, it's cool.
Really though, I think I'm partial to Deputy. Has a ring to it. Everyone should refer to me as Deputy. Or wait, how about mayor? The president?
Self-declaration is THE ONLY proof of identity. Identity exists only within the mind of the subject and, up to now, science has not been able to read the mind. So, the only way to know someone's identity is by listening to their self-declarations. Even when you apply for a legal ID or something you declare your name, your address, your nationality, et cetera and people believe you.
Now, we used to believe the external sexual characteristics of a person should always correspond to their desired social gender, we now know not always does, and the only way we can know if they correspont or not is through self-declaration.
I am the Tzar, and I will be offended if people don't use my proper gender pronoun, which is "Tzar".
So what you are saying is that it all comes down to personal whim? I'm double checking my dictionary, and it seems like that makes identity arbitrary pretty conclusively.
I don't believe that because someone says something, that makes them what they say they are. In fact, I'm on the opinion that it is more likely that someone has a false sense of identity than an accurate sense of identity.
How many people actually take the time to really find themselves?
If you are declaring yourself to be the opposite sex of what your biology dictates, how can you be honest about the rest of yourself?
The root of these things is idolatry. That is what the scriptures say, and I agree with them. Obviously, something here is getting in the way of coming to grips with reality.
Preoccupation with sexual things is not good mental health. It's fetishistic.
"Sexual things" and sexual practices are very healthy for a person's life; on the other hand, demonizing sexuality was one of the things that buried the western society in obscurantism during the middle ages. "Sexual things" are not necessarily fetishistic, because "sexual things" can be perfectly rational modest and moderate.
"If you are declaring yourself to be the opposite sex of what your biology dictates, how can you be honest about the rest of yourself?"
Well, I can bet you have never met a real transgender person in your life. Do it and be the judge yourself of how honest are transgender people with themselves.
How many people actually take the time to really find themselves?... Ask a transgender person.
In general, Tzar (which is a noun, not a pronoun), I can say you base your arguments on nothing more than your personal opinion of what others should feel and think, you just assume everybody else should be exactly like you, but, well, no, that's not how it works. People are different, let them be.
There is nothing wrong with sexuality. However, people these days do not believe that sexual immorality is a thing when it actually is. Just because something doesn't seem harmful on the surface or immediately harmful does not change the fact that it isn't good. Widespread sexual immorality screws everything up, and it is so dangerous that it is capable of toppling entire societies. Sexual immorality is a real thing.
"Well, I can bet you have never met a real transgender person in your life. Do it and be the judge yourself of how honest are transgender people with themselves."
Yeah, see, that isn't actually true. I have known a lot of transgenders. I even used to live with a female to male transgender. I have organized funeral memorials for them. Back in my younger and less ethical days, I even used to pimp trannies.
Yes, in my observation, they are clearly throwed off people, very consistently. A lot of them get hooked on meth and become prostitutes. Isn't surprising given their fetish. Sure, I've had friends who were of that persuasion before who were not difficult company, but whether or not everything else about them is fine, they are doing what they are doing because of some type of fetish, and it is obvious to me and damn near anyone else who can see it.
"I can say you base your arguments on nothing more than your personal opinion of what others should feel and think, you just assume everybody else should be exactly like you, but, well, no, that's not how it works. People are different, let them be."
That is probably because you are prejudice.
Look, I'm not saying we should do anything to hinder transgenders. I'm saying that they are mixed up people with a false sense of identity. What they really are is so much more meaningful and beautiful than that. No, they've been fed a big lie, and they believe it. I have a lot of hurt for them, because they are clearly a people who suffer greatly.
Yet, that is one way God corrects us. Cognitive dissonance. See, there are even subtle consequences for waging war against reality.
Self declaration is not a proof of identity because it can be opposed to reality, what would you think of a person claiming that the sky is red? Or he has a vision problem or he is a wacko
"Identity exists only within the mind of the subject" = nope, someone claimed to identify as a taco salad does that make him one? No because it is not conform to reality
"you declare your name, your address, your nationality, et cetera and people believe you" because they are expecting you to say the truth, truth being what is conform to REALITY
I love the "we" as if humanity as a whole had decided that
To summarize they are people we should have pity for because they are so unsecure they think that changing their gender will resolve all their problems
Let me correct myself... What would I think of a person claiming that the sky is red... I would think that person is self-declaring their color blindness, which cannot be proven by any other means but asking the person what color does he/she see. Because color perception is another mental process and self-declaration is the only means to prove it.
"what would you think of a person claiming that the sky is red?"
I would think they are not "self-declaring" anything... self-declarations are about declaring internal processes of the mind, which cannot be "proven" in any other way. if you feel sad you NEED to self-declare your sadness. If you self-identify with rock-music-lovers you must make a self-declaration about who you identify with.
Now the stupid taco salad analogy: See, Identifying with rock-music-lovers (with how they dress and how they express themselves) or with women are perfectly healthy practices because both (rock-music-lovers and women) are functional stereotypes of society, they work, pay taxes and respect the law. Taco salads don't. i hope you understand the difference between self-identifying as a socially functional human being or self-identifying as a thing.
"truth is what conforms to REALITY" Reality is that "self-identity", along with emotions, feelings, memories, and knowledge are all mental processes computed in the brain, not in the chromosomes, not your testicles. In reality, it is perfectly possible for a brain not to agree with the testicles. So when a person expresses gender dysphoria feelings, they are expressing a reality of their brain.
Let me correct myself... What would I think of a person claiming that the sky is red... I would think that person is self-declaring their color blindness, which cannot be proven by any other means but asking the person what color does he/she see. Because, color perception is another mental process and self-declaration is the only means to prove it.
Does she work or study? Does she or will she pay taxes?, Is she hurting anyone?... If the answers are yes, yes and no... then I don't give a damn about what she believes she is... It's her life, I don´t care, I will treat her as she asks me to treat her.
Is she a cat? No she is not,
Is she a person who wants to be treated as a cat? : Yes she is!, and that is the reality inside her brain, it is a REALITY... R.E.A.L.I.T.Y she is a person who wants to be treated as a cat, therefore I will do so because she is asking nicely, and because she is not hurting anyone
The brain makes sense of reality, it doesnt create it. A quick way for you to realize this would be to "construct a reality" for yourself in wich you have wings and then jump out of the window; you will have a serious R.E.A.L.I.T.Y check
You admit yourself she isnt a cat, what do you mean by that? That in your personnal reality she isnt really a cat? Or that there is one "superior" reality in wich she is just a delusioned person who thinks (or pretends ?) she is a cat?
Seriously, this is a very common error that was disproven since antiquity, and one of the reasons most of Descartes books are wrong, please read upp on this
Well since you said that she isnt a cat, I guess we must agree than trangendered people arent the gender they say they are?
One last point, lets say she does pay taxes, study, and doesnt hurt anyone: why should we feed her delusions? Its litterally the first rule in psychiatrict wards: "dont feed their delusions" or their problems will only get worse. Are you proposing we offer help only for those who are dangerous to other people?
Legitimately as in according to the law? Depends on the country. Semantically? it depends on the language: in this dicussion the key word is gender, and in some languages sex and gender are the exact same thing. I may be wrong here but it seem that english was in such a case, and that its meaning "Gender generally isn't referring to biological sex, it's the social and cultural differences associated with the biological sexes (masculinity and femininity)"( curtesy to WinstonC for the definition) is relatively new. My point being that the question is not correctly posed (no disrespect intented)
The only time that they are legitimately the gender they say they are is if they are one of only a handful of biological hermaphrodites. That is simple biology.
No. They are the gender that biology assigned to them. Gender (and sex) is determined by our x/y chromosomes. If your chromosomes determine you are a female or a male, then that is your legitimate gender. Different case for intersex people.
The fact that we have people asking such questions, shows the indoctrination of this political correct Progressive movement in this nation. You are doing exactly what the Left wants you to do. Fixate on their screwed up PC agendas.
We are 20 TRILLION in debt, record numbers of children living in broken homes, record numbers of unwed mothers living on welfare, record numbers of people living on food stamps, drug addictions everywhere, and what is this nation constantly talking about?
The latest unnatural abnormal sexual orientation of the month. This has been the fixation from the Progressive Left for decades now. This is why our nation is dying one step at a time.
These transgender people are totally dysfunctional. Rather than trying to sanction every unnatural sexual disorder as normal, forcing all public schools to allow boys in girls bathrooms, forcing every State to change their mrriage laws, etc. etc. it's time to ignore these vocal activists, and get on with the business of saving this nation from collapse, morally and fiscally.
It's time to remember the difference between equal rights, and sexual dysfunction.
Psychologists now believe that utter hate (like yours) against homosexual and transsexual people is a common result of a repressed homosexuality or transexuality of the "hater". Words like "unnatural", "abnormal" and statements such as the downfall of civilization due to letting a few people do what they want is a classic paranoid view of a person ill with hate.
No, the transgender community is not provoking the downfall of civilization. It is war, it is overpopulation, it is hundreds of years of exploitation of the natural environment. The problem is not the VERY FEW trans people, the problem is the other 20 TRILLION. We all are part of the problem.
ROFFLOL, you just sited war, overpopulation, environment as the causes for our nation's problems.
So tell me how war, overpopulation and environmental issues caused that man and woman to have a one night hook up?
Tell me how those things caused a person to illegally take hard drugs and then get addicted?
Tell me how they made a person abuse alcohol and become an alcoholic?
Tell me how those things caused so many women to have sex with dead beat men who abandoned them after getting pregnant, and then running down to the welfare office to get tax payers to support them.
These are all moral issues and have NOTHING to do with your mindless excuses.
I never once said anything hateful to Gays or Transgender people. YOU ARE A HIDEOUS LIAR! I DON'T HATE ANYONE! FOOLS LIKE YOU MUST ALWAYS DEMONIZE ANYONE WHO SPEAKS OUT AGAINST YOUR POLITICAL CORRECT FANATICISM.
Newsflash, homosexuality is unnatural! Take biology again and learn something this time! Transgender people have disorders. Read medical books and learn something this time.
Stating the obvious facts of science is not hate but it is you showing your hate for anyone who dares speak common sense truth.
You are the brainwashed low end voters who swallow all this political correct nonsense.
I believe in treating all people with respect. I believe no one should be discriminated against for merely being different.
But that does not mean we sanction the unnatural abnormal sexual orientations as being natural. THEY WILL NEVER BE!
It is people like you who hate diversity such as our special Need's babies who you support testing for and killing.
Those innocent down syndrome children are being erradicated from our world simply for being diverse and different. Watch a Special olympic track meet, and see the inhumanity you support by looking at the faces of children who the Left says deserve to be tested for and killed.
You are the people filled with selfish hatred for those who do not look like or sound like you. You kill out of convienence and have the nerve to judge others for merely dissagreeing?
nope. Gender does not refer to sexuality identity preference. it refers to the genitalia and chromosomes, exclusively.
porn industry is lobbying to our governments, because of sextoy sales, marijuana sales, cocaine sales, porn sales and the nature of them never working.
Gender is a word and the meaning of words can change with time. Yes, Sex and Gender were used as synonyms in the past, but not anymore. Since transgender people started to speak out their minds, psychologists needed to acknowledge that, for some, what was inside the brain would not correspond to their chromosomes and genitalia. They chose to stop using sex and gender as synonyms but to assign them different locations in the body. The current convention now is that sex is on your chromosomes and genitalia, while gender is inside your brain. Times change, words change, it is not rocket science and it is not a big deal