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Are we the Creation of a Divine Being
Throughout the centuries there has been one reoccurring argument. How were we created. As science developed to give us a more logical answer, religion has had little to no change in the belief that god/gods created us. Now it is your turn to express your opinion on the matter.
Ultimately, this is a topic I absolutely adore but am still on the fence on.
Not because I've yet to be convinced by either side, but because I am convinced by both sides.
I think if I were to be pushed towards a conclusion, I'd say that if there were a God which created the entire universe, and in effect us, then it is not the God peddled by any mortal religion.
I find that one of the most convincing arguments by atheists is "God allows evil and suffering". In my opinion, the content of this argument is sufficient to completely dismiss religion as having solid truths. It does not, however, dismiss the claim that god exists independent of religion.
If God(s) exists, then he/she/it/them is/are certainly not omnibenevolent. I've posted a lot of arguments on this site regarding this topic so I won't oversaturate with the how and why, but that's the bare bones of my belief.
One who does not know the answer to this does not anything About God.
In my opinion, the content of this argument is sufficient to completely dismiss religion as having solid truths.
Such as?
It does not, however, dismiss the claim that god exists independent of religion.
Religion is simply relationship with God.
Can your work boss be your father home(religious type of relationship)?
Can a creator supremebeing, have a relationship with his creation?
If not, and the creator knows not relationship, why would he create things in the opposite image of himself... where his creations have relationships .....love/affection, family etc.....
is that aspect independent of the creator's qualities?
If God(s) exists, then he/she/it/them is/are certainly not omnibenevolent.
i agree, God feels everything man feels.
Anger, love,pride, mercy, jealousy, punishes etc.... except for attractions of the human body, hunger, sexual lust, sleep because if God did have a human body material we should be seeing him.
But the difference is he is not bound by human laws of morality because he is the law himself. However he acts is law in the universe and the law forms part of his creations as convictions and evil conscious(some manage to dry it out).
Therefore doing evil without a physically written law, by your own conviction you are condemned to punishment.
Romans 1:20-32New King James Version (NKJV)
20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.(God is like nothing we see on earth)
24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality,[a] wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, 30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving,[b] unmerciful; 32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.
One who does not know the answer to this does not anything About God.
Firstly, it wasn't a question. Secondly, his argument was an argument against the existence of God. Using God to prove the existence of God is the very definition of circular reasoning.
Religion is simply relationship with God
No, I am afraid religion is simply a mind virus. The sickness in our society is so spectacular that a person can claim to have a relationship with Jesus or God and be respected, while another can claim to have a relationship with Elvis and be locked away in a padded cell for life. Nobody has ever produced any verifiable evidence of a relationship with God in the entire recorded history of mankind. You have literally nothing to support what you are saying, so you can't expect normal, rational adults to believe you. Religion is a parasitic virus which sustains itself by using the host (i.e. the parents, schoolteachers etc...) to indoctrinate children too young to have developed a propensity for rational thought. It reproduces itself just like any other virus does.
No offence, but your writing is the long blathering of one seriously unwell individual.
your whole argument is not intelligent. It's a complete twist. Next time make a sensible argument about a group that says, donot steal, do not kill for human life is valuabe etc.... than saying they are a virus and thinking another which says human life has no purpose and valueless is more sound when it has triggered hitler to kill so many in the past, yet you do not see it as virus.
No offence, but your writing is the long blathering of one seriously unwell individual and i won't dissect your stupid hateful bitterness.
God being good and God being "omnibenevolent" are two different things. God is not benevolent toward evil, He is against evil and will punish evil. It is good to know that God will confine evil in the fire of Hell forever, and God is good for doing so..to punish evil. Evil doers will always look at God as if He were evil because He is against them and they cannot see, or will not see, His goodness.
You are being atheistic while pretending to be open-minded, bragging of your parroted points penned by atheists you admire, imitating them and not thinking for yourself. Atheism is mindless, it's a sham....a closed minded sham.
God is not benevolent toward evil, He is against evil and will punish evil.
How do you know? Have you spoken to him?
According to you, I and the entire LGBT community are "evil". Does God wish to punish me for how he supposedly made me?
In which case, God created me, and created who and what I am... just so that he can take pleasure in my eternal suffering in Hell. That's rather sadistic, no? It seems to me that your God should be punishing himself, if he's so wound up about punishing evil.
Excuse me, potty mouth, I wasn't talking to you. I'm sure whatever I say will cause you to spew out dirt. You stink, you're on your way to Hell, profane and vulgar and I won't read your butting in comments.
Oh just shut up, you malicious 13th century religious bully. I bet you were shaking your pitchfork at the screen when you wrote that, weren't you? Stop threatening people with eternal suffering and take your medication you backward, mentally ill troglodyte.
You stink, you're on your way to Hell.........that's right, potty mouth. You need to be saved. If by accident I see that you begin to fear God and stop talking like a dirty devil, I'll read your post.
You stink, you're on your way to Hell.........that's right, potty mouth.
Cool. I'll see you there.
You need to be saved.
No, you need psychiatric help. It is precisely because of spectacularly ignorant, evil religious bullies like you that women have been burned to death, homosexuals have been stoned and children have been sacrificed. You are pure, unadulterated scum.
I am a "fag", yes. It's quite fun actually, you should try it some time. You get to be part of a wide, friendly community, you get to fight for what you believe in, you get to have incredible sex... oh, did I forget to mention the eternal damnation you go through when you die? That's my favourite part of being a "faggot".
Hmmmm. Was Irma "created" or did Irma "evolve" from a collection of natural phenomena ... pressures, winds, temperatures ... or the hand of a "god"?
Was it an act of a "loving god", or a vicious act of nature?
Is humanity a "creation" or did we "evolve" from a collection of natural phenomena? If we were created by a "god", especially one who "loves us", why would it cause so much misery, destroy so many of its creations?
I, personally, can't accept that as a reason to worship a "god". Still waiting for word of an 87 year old uncle in Sarasota and a grand daughter and Great Granddaughter in Largo. Mother Nature can be a BITCH! I'd rather not believe in a "vicious creator".
Who said God made any of these terrible things happen?
In Ephesians 2:2 it is written that Satan is "The prince of the Power of the Air" Yet at the same time we read all throughout the Bible that All is as God wills it and that nothing happens without his permission.
FIRST: let's Read parts of the book of Job: Beginning in verse six it reads:
'6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them. 7 The Lord said to Satan, “From where have you come?” Satan answered the Lord and said, “From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking up and down on it.” 8 And the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, who fears God and turns away from evil?” 9 Then Satan answered the Lord and said, “Does Job fear God for no reason? 10 Have you not put a hedge around him and his house and all that he has, on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land. 11 But stretch out your hand and touch all that he has, and he will curse you to your face.” 12 And the Lord said to Satan, “Behold, all that he has is in your hand. Only against him do not stretch out your hand.” So Satan went out from the presence of the Lord.'
~Job 1:6-12
Here we see that God allows Satan to TEST Job by doing all sorts of horrible things to him: which we later will see includes: the Death of all his children-3 daughters and seven sons- and most of his servants, the destruction of all his livestock. And then his friends and even his WIFE turned against him in Chapter 2 after Satan goes and gets permission to harm Job's health. Then the next several chapters: Chapters 4-37 carries those friends accusing Job of various crimes trying to find out why God has let this happen to Job. That is a lot of Accusation, but Job never falters. eventually God rewards him for his trials by giving back all he had double! an exception was made with the children but that's probably OK. there is other proof of the existence of a God that cares, But that is not the debate here. Nor the argument i am disputing, per se.
No, you do not want to believe in a creator that says to love even our enemies, love the innocent, treat others as you would have them treat you, etc.
Nah, the likes of you would rather believe in an evolutionary animal eat animal, survival of the fittest, and killer of our own innocent children for sake of convienence creation.
YOU TOTAL HYPOCRITE! Your side is monsterous and even supports killng viable special needs babies for simply beng different.
Do you have a mirror handy??? "The likes of me" is TOTALLY OPPOSITE to your perception. (Except that I don't want to believe in a creator). The rest is hogwash. Babies are not the only form of humanity, I prefer to look at it as a WHOLE, not just the little pieces of humanity. I had two "babies", I "inherited" two more and have many in my family. They are important to me. Mine have grown up, most are pushing 50 (or pulling it), THEY are important also. I can't be a "Johnny-one-note" as you seem to be. I'm not a Psychiatrist but you seem to me to be someone who has something to feel guilty about.
See, you have your opinion, I have mine. Simply being different.
This is the dream world of denial you live in on the Left.
You think you are a good person for having children, loving your children, etc.
Those are the children you allowed to keep living! You support with your vote so called good parents to KILL there viable late term babies for any reason up to birth! Or to kill their viable special needs babies for any reason. This is who you are! Live with it!
Hitler, the Nazi's, the slave owners, etc. could all make the same excuses you just made.
I'm sure they all had families, loved their families, etc. but guess what? They were inhuman animals!
If you are not an inhuman animal, call your Congress people and tell them you will no longer vote for them until they stop supporting no restriction abortions.
You won't do that because you are a radical pro abortion phoney.
I guess we should have given germany and the Nazi's no fault unconditional love as they murdered Jews. Is that what you are saying?
Christians understand that true love means speaking out against evil, for those who can not defend themselves. It does not means we wish evil people to go to Hell, but rather would hope they find God, and turn from their evil.
I guess we should have given germany and the Nazi's no fault unconditional love as they murdered Jews. Is that what you are saying?
You do know that Hitler was a Catholic, right? Most of the Nazi Party were Christians.
I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so.
(Adolf Hitler, to General Gerhard Engel, 1941)
My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter.
(Adolf Hitler, in a speech on 12 April 1922. Norman H. Baynes, ed. The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922-August 1939, Vol. 1 of 2, pp. 19-20, Oxford University Press, 1942)
God says we will know Christians by their love. Hitler, Nazi's, the KKK, White Supremace groups, etc. are not Christians but bigots like you use them to demonize Christians.
Tell me where I have not done those things? Do you think that calling a supporter of killing innocent viable babies, as being inhuman, is not the loving thing to do?
Is it not loving trying to save the lives of the innocent from evil.
Would you be loving to Hitler, or Nazis, or white supremace groups, etc. etc.?
There is such a thing as tough love cased you grew up in a cave. We love our children, while scolding them when they are doing wrong.
Do I hope that evil selfish people someday see their inhumanity, get saved and find their way to Heaven? Yes I do!
You mix up love with capitulation to selfish inhumanities. I will always speak out on behalf of those who have no voice against those who would support the right to kill them.
Do you think that calling a supporter of killing innocent viable babies
A fetus is not an "innocent, viable baby" any more than I am a frail, dotty-brained pensioner, you mentally ill halfwit. A fetus doesn't have a central nervous system for a start. It can't feel pain. You are mad as a damned fruitcake. You just keep repeating the same lunatic language like a demented parrot, without ever acknowledging the complete lack of reason in the words you have chosen.
Would you be loving to Hitler, or Nazis, or white supremace groups, etc. etc.?
But Hitler was once one of your "innocent, viable babies". If you don't agree with aborting HIV positive, crack addicted babies from the womb, then why would you agree with aborting megalomaniac dictators?
There is such a thing as tough love
No, there really isn't. I'm sorry if your daddy beat you, but violence and love are quite different things. The very act of cruelty toward someone/something you claim to love is evidence that in fact you do not love it. The thought of hurting someone/something you love should terrify you and keep you awake at night, because that is what love actually is.
Do I hope that evil selfish people someday see their inhumanity
I hope that one day you can learn to practice what you preach.
I will always speak out on behalf of those who have no voice against those who would support the right to kill them.
You really are a piece of work. You autoban everybody who argues with you from your debates. You are the CAUSE of people having no voice, you mentally ill nincompoop.
Hiw many times have a spoken about no restriction abortions supported by the Left, where the baby DOES INDEED FEEL PAIN YOU COMPLETE FOOL!
Special needs babies (Down syndrome special oympic kids) are the majortiy of late term abortions where they DO FEEL PAIN!
You say......"I'm sorry if your daddy beat you, but violence and love are quite different things. The very act of cruelty toward someone/something you claim to love is evidence that in fact you do not love it. The thought of hurting someone/something you love should terrify you and keep you awake at night, because that is what love actually is."
You have the nerve to speak of violence when you support dismembering late term viable babies? ROFLOL, this is why you will always be banned from my debates. You are a complete fool!
You and the Left have plenty of love. It's called self love whereby a human life is expendable for sake of your convienence.
It's not a question of what I WANT to believe, it's what I SEE that I CAN believe. I see NO evidence that I was "created" by any divine entity, that's it.
I DO believe, and support, a SOCIETY that says "love our enemies" (as long as it is feasible), I love the innocent as much, or more so, than (as) you. I treat others as I would have them treat ME, and I don't need a book or imaginary entity to tell me that's the right thing to do. I KNOW it, and I DO "DO THESE THINGS". Just where did you get the idea I don't?? You don't know me at all ... do not covet thy neighbors LIFE! :-(
one might argue that humans evolved billions of years ago through the natural changes that took place in the earth. going back to the big bang which is ultimately thought of as the basis from which creation began, big bang is the violent explosion of compressed material. i am speaking in layman terms. now the question is, how did those gases come into being. i am sure someone will have an answer to that, then again the question arises, how did that thing come into being and so on... ultimately it comes down to God, he created us, whether you want to believe it to be in a direct or indirect manner is your wish.
Why/how would a mindless nothing, produce a mindful(order: Planets sun stars not colliding, Seasons, reproducion of physically and gentically identical species over billion ofcyears consistently, etc...) universe?
Using scientific method we can understand how many of these things came to be, but ultimately we don't know why the universe exists instead of nothing, if that's what you are getting at. Also, I don't think it fits to call the universe mindful just because of its consistency.
Anyway, you haven't answered my question; Why would God exist ('before' the universe) instead of nothing?
Also, I don't think it fits to call the universe mindful just because of its consistency.
Is there anything consistent that is mindless? care to share ?
Why would God exist ('before' the universe) instead of nothing?
You are talking about before the existence of your universe.
Before software programmers launch a game that will have it's own computer universe, in which universe does the programmer sit? Must he necessarily live in the computer or just have authority over computers(internet, coding, music, etc).
Do you realise features in games are consistent, reoccuring and of specific features unchangeable by game characters?
Can you change the weather, location of the sea, or a forest etc.?
You should realise now we are an accurate image of the creator of this universe and we keep acting like him everyday in different activities not because we want to but it is according his programming that we are talented like him, innovative like him, even try creating just he did.... as we do to games, and robots....
we are totally emulating God ....
and it is also by his programming that animals do not have most of his abilities(not his image) and has made subject to us under our control.
The whole environment was made to suit us and earth specifically.(Trying living on another planet exactly like on earth)
We survive on oxygen, water, so many varieties of plants for food and healing, natural resources, materials with natural talents to make build shelters....time of sleep sun set to moon night,
Blacks are specifically on the side of the planet where they are more capable of surving the heat the whites are located in low temperate areas. A lot of white travel to africa with suncream(unfit the environment)
"Is there anything consistent that is mindless? care to share?"
5+5=10 is consistent and independent of our minds. It doesn't matter that we invented the name 'five,' the fundamental principles remain constant. Mindless and consistent. Regardless, to say all consistent things are mindful because I've never seen anything consistent that is mindless is not a valid argument. Also, you 'beg the question' when you ask this, because it appears to me that you assume that the consistency of the universe cannot be an example of something consistent and mindless - you seem to me to assume your initial point in the question.
Everything else you say is an attempt to dodge my question. You put words into my mouth, for example, asking: "Before software programmers launch a game that will have it's own computer universe, in which universe does the programmer sit?" implies that I said something about God having his own universe, which is nothing to do with what I said.
Everything else either assumes the existence of God, or just makes no sense.
Numbers, Reproduction, Seasons, Vegetation, Time~rotation and revolution are consistent and ofcourse are not triggered by man's mind programming.
I ask for phenomena that is not natural because my argument is all natural consistency is the Mind of God instead of nothing.
Whence you insist there is possibility of nothing than God(Mind), i want you to give something that came out not of a mind made but is consistent.
Example a barber closed his eyes , imagined nothing and gave six people the same hair cut, exact same margins, designs, and even same mistakes consistently/consecutively.
Mindless.
I don't even think anyone would be stupid enough to have a hair cut from a barber who is not thinking and has closed his eyes....because anyone can very well predict the outcome.(Apparently, generally, people accept there will be choas without a mind behind an event but also want to believe contradictorily that it does not apply to the existence of the universe; double standards)
Example: One day a game self programmed(setting, items, characters, colours, storyline,language etc) on a pc till now there is no author and events are consistent in the game.
Mindless
If you give any real life scenario such as this, then you will have a valid reason to assert more confidently it is most likely the universe came out of nothing instead of a mind(referred to as God).
Or else your assertion is utter nonsense that breeds from no where else but solely from atheists
How do you know a universe can not come out of nothing ?
Where and when have you examined a ' nothing ' ?
How did a god come out of nothing if you say it's nonsense to believe something can come out of nothing ?
Atheists mostly do not as you say something came from nothing , a lot say they don't know as that's the honest answer ; you and your billions of fellow believers have not one bankable piece of evidence that can be demonstrated to prove a god have yous ?
If you had there would be no more atheists would'nt there .
Your assertion that something cannot come from nothing is incorrect as the latest scientific thinking asserts something can indeed come from nothing and there's even an equation to back it up .
1. It does not say anything ~not compelling to convince of anything
2. The step or approach is wrong in the sense that it is bias to have attempted proving the universe came out of nothing(a political stand) instead of generally, how did the universe come about
So after reading.
Ok so you think the universe is just an empty bubble? why in their attempt to replicate the event not able to make solid matter exist within the experiment like we have here planets, sun, other stars, metiorites, plants, water etc than just an empty floating bubble that keeps expanding so what? after all was artificially triggered by some.......rather not say......
When i was a kid, i could could make about six bubbles at a go with my tongue, they floated, expanded and burst, have i replicated the big bang? did i create six universes?
After so many billion years of emptiness in other dimensions of space, why hasn't those same nothingness factors triggered another big bang? unless it was meant by someone and for only once. or what is pausing the nothingness factors?
Any energy counted as a factor of nothingness that triggered it said to hover the edges.... how did nothing trigger itself into existence and we only now see it....why not before? then it can't be nothing right? at least it is some matter, that existed before the universe and who put it there? another matter or mind?
I never said the universe is an empty bubble I gave an article that demonstrates how something may come from nothing .
I was actually refering to your article.
It seems you haven't read it yourself.
There is a lot of argument around it.
Indeed many can replicate the big bang incident in a smaller version but are incapable of achieving same products as a sun, planets etc.
and even with that not withstanding, the basics or fundamentals of the aim of experiment to prove big bang occured out of nothing(mindless not vacuum) is flawed since in the first place any experiment is a set up, whatever was witnessed in the experiment "the out of nothingness came everything" had a couple scientists(minds) to set it up and wasn't a natural auto replica.
Which brings me to the point where if i grant "out nothing came everything", ~there must be a mind to ensure the necessary factors or set up for it to take place.
Where everything only means "things we know exist within our universe" and therefore our universe might be only situated in a little position of a bigger emptiness vacuum universe that is why it can accomodate the expansion of our universe. If there isn't more room, we couldn't be expanding. And what many scientists have gathered is the calculation of the phenomenon is so accurate that a tiny fractional percentage change in the order will cause great havoc to the entire universe.
This can only make me believe, that there is an incredible megamind behind such sophisticated order.
Out of nothing(vacuum) can come something but it is impossible without a mind to make a set up.
Well yes I studied the article and more like it and of course there are debates around these ideas but that's what science does , doesn't it ?
Believers do not do this as they assert something cannot come from nothing but yet a god /meganind can and they do so without proof , where is your proof that it's impossible without a mind to set it up ?
Believers do not do this as they assert something cannot come from nothing but yet a god /meganind
What about non believers or people who are non religious or aren't christians ~scientists~ who share the same sentiments?
That is the unfounded accusations atheists make against scientists who have religious backgrounds or not, as long as they are in disagreeance with them , to blemish the genuinety of their works.
So they are ignored and portrayed as superstitious lowly intelligent scientists/people without a real debate. Because all atheists scientists are cowards. That is the only wall of defense they put up not a real fight and conquer debate.
they do so without proof , where is your proof that it's impossible without a mind to set it up ?
The make up of the universe (if you know anything about it), is self proof.
The only question here is where does the guy(mind) behind it sit? why isn't he showing up??(I would refer to game programmers and the computer universe for only the characters scenario)This is just science.
He shows up in religion(but how do we know for sure it is actually him that shows up in religion....many questions...i have many answers)
I don't understand what you're trying to say but a scientist who's a believer in a god keeps it out of any scientific enquiries as science is not interested in claims that have no validity or proof in the real world .
No the cowards are believers like you who have zero proof of a god but are too terrified to face the fact that when you're dead that's it buddy nothing , nada , zilch x
Regards a real fight what do you mean ? Make something up without evidence the way you guys do ?
You say ... the make up of the Universe is self proof ? .....
What's that supposed to mean ?
That's not the only question that's merely you speculating again without proof and if there is a guy who made him ? A point you keep refusing to answer , whys that ?
He shows up in religion ? No he doesn't , if that's true show us a photo ?
that have no validity or proof in the real world .
Such as?
terrified to face the fact that when you're dead that's it buddy nothing , nada , zilch x
I would be happier if it were true i am only a bag of dust. Because according my religion, there are higher chances of going to hell (a place of suffering) than heaven(a place of happiness) , 1000:1. Meaning more people go to hell than heaven. I bound by so many dos and don't but i am still most likely to fail.
You on other hand ignores everything ; hell and the rules, because of your fear of the possibility of hell and your compatible lifestyle with it.
Which is easier to accept for a coward?
I am not a coward. And die trying only hoping on the pity of God( which rarely happens and land people in hell)
What's that supposed to mean ?
That why i gave a condition "if you know anything about the universe".
You can watch the video of my debate " God exists Scientific proof"
will give a little enlightenment.
You shouldn't talk to me when you don't know what you are talking about.
That's not the only question that's merely you speculating
If you still think i am speculating then you simply can't follow up on logic.
I don't even know if you read anything at all.
and if there is a guy who made him ?
That is just beyond you and me.
And talking beyond that belt is what is speculation.
No he doesn't , if that's true show us a photo ?
Jesus. Prove he didn't exist, he wasn't cruxified and ressurected, if he didn't ressurect where is his body,
why would he predict wars, persecutions etc. that hadn't started yet in those times yet.... how did he know?
Such as ? Are you on a separate debate ? Such as a proof for god ?
How stupid are you ? How can I be afraid of something I dont believe in ?
If my lifestyle is not compatible with your stupid fairytale why would that bother me ?
Your lifestyle is not compatible with the teachings of Muhammad it it ? Going on your logic that make you a coward
Your debate god scientific proof I believe I and others dismantled and I note no scientist had come forward with a scientific proof for a god if you disagree maybe you should present which would make you the first person ever to prove god exists and a Nobel prize ..... go for it
Yes I understand logic you obviously do not as you just claim there is a god with zero proof making you totally illogical
If there is a god who made him and you claim that is beyond you and me and is speculation ..... I know I keep telling you this , and now you admit you're only speculating , so you admit in your own words you don't know yet say you have a god proof , tripping yourself up yet again and in your own words 👌
You said Jesus shows up which is a lie where your photos ?
I never said Jesus didn't exist did I ? The difference is Jesus was a travelling rabbi who never walked on water , rose from the dead or changed water into wine because he was just a human preacher now long dead .
If he didn't resurrect where's his body ? Moses didn't resurrect can you present his body and if not why not ?
Why was such a monstrous Ark never found ?
Jesus predicted nothing and he said he would reappear on earth during the lives of his diciples and never did making him a liar .
I can dispute everything and I've just exposed you lying yet again as in " I have a god proof " and then " we cannot say as it's only speculation "
Ok. Apparently you are unfit to partake in this high intelligence required discourse.
I always knew it right from the start when you barged in.
You were using the cover of an experiment way too intelligent for yourself but played calm at the start but this is who you are.
Just because i give you the priviledge to talk to me on a regular daily basis doesn't mean you are qualified to talk to me any topic. There are certain topics that are too deep for your intelligence to contend on with me.
High intelligence from a Ghanaian baboon is an impossibility as you demonstrate daily ; yet again I got you to contradict yourself and shamefully yet again when caught lying you sulk like the childish dumb baboon you are .... nothing new there is there ?
Your recent failure in your state exams I predicted ,a three year old over here would school the average Ghanaian baboon and pass your childish exams with distinction ;go back to arguing with with your fellow baboons who are no doubt equally as dense as you and your thieving hero Kofi swindler Annan
"I ask for phenomena that is not natural because my argument is all natural consistency is the Mind of God instead of nothing."
Now you're just assuming your own opinion to be correct as a basis for your arguments. You are 'begging the question.' Unless I misinterpret, you are arguing for God using the assumption that God exists.
"(Apparently, generally, people accept there will be chaos without a mind behind an event"
I don't think that's true, for reasons I have stated. What is chaos anyway? Is it unpredictability? In which cases, aren't minds a greater source of chaos than many other things?
"If you give any real life scenario such as this, then you will have a valid reason to assert more confidently it is most likely the universe came out of nothing instead of a mind(referred to as God)."
I think it makes no sense to compare the origin of the universe to things we have here on earth. It is far more complex than any of that. I could easily twist your logic around, and ask if you can give any real life scenarios where an all powerful, all knowing, infinite being just exists free of space and time for no apparent reason, etc, etc. Can you? If not, do you see the problem with your argument? We can't use everyday analogies like like your video game one to understand the origin of the universe, we wouldn't be doing it justice.
Unless I misinterpret, you are arguing for God using the assumption that God exists
You are entirely confused. It seems you don't remember your initial question about God and nothing.
I am not going back.
In which cases, aren't minds a greater source of chaos than many other things?
There will still traces of logical patterns if there is a mind behind it.
I think it makes no sense to compare the origin of the universe to things we have here on earth. It is far more complex than any of that.
It's not what you think. It makes sense. It's same universe. There
is nothing new here.
It is far more complex than any of that. I could easily twist your logic around, and ask if you can give any real life scenarios where an all powerful, all knowing, infinite being just exists free of space and time for no apparent reason, etc, etc.
Oh yes. You have no idea. i could show you but people always fail to fufill the requests in involved in reaching there.
Either way that twist doesn't fall in place in this particular pattern of logic.
Trying so hard to run from your question.
The point i am trying to prove is a greater mind existing outside our time.
Ok let's go back to the game thing.
There are games the programmer makes characters bound by some specific amount of time whereas if the character does not fufill a mission within stipulated time, it dies in the game.
Do you realise many characters die so many times but the programmer will still be alive？ He exists outside that time, and is supernatural to chatacters of the game. He reassembles and destroy any aspect in the game at any time.
"You are entirely confused. It seems you don't remember your initial question about God and nothing. I am not going back."
I remember my initial question and it doesn't seem that you understand it. To reword it, why does God exist (on the assumption he does)? This is not a question for you to argue for the existence of God in, you just have to give a reason why he (and by extension our universe) exists instead of nothing if you want to give a satisfactory answer.
"It's not what you think. It makes sense. It's same universe. There
is nothing new here."
I should have clarified to "everyday things," like a game.
"Oh yes. You have no idea. i could show you but people always fail to fulfill the requests in involved in reaching there."
What do you mean by requests? Just give me an example (God doesn't count) if you have one.
"Trying so hard to run from your question."
Yes you are.
"The point i am trying to prove is a greater mind existing outside our time."
That's nothing to do with the question. I assume he does exist for the purposes of this question, you don't need to argue for it. You just need to explain why he existed 'in the beginning' as the bible states, rather than nothing.
"Ok let's go back to the game thing."
It is irrelevant the way you've taken it.
"There are games the programmer makes characters bound by some specific amount of time whereas if the character does not fufill a mission within stipulated time, it dies in the game.
Do you realise many characters die so many times but the programmer will still be alive？ He exists outside that time, and is supernatural to chatacters of the game. He reassembles and destroy any aspect in the game at any time."
That's great Jeffrey, you know what a video game is. There wasn't an argument there.
you to argue for the existence of God in, you just have to give a reason why he (and by extension our universe) exists instead of nothing if you want to give a satisfactory answer.
I already did that by saying looking at sophisticated order of which the universe, there must have been a mind behind it, therefore call will God.
Anything mindless is incapable of degree of sensible order. Even you with a brain/mind will take you over centuries to replicate the structure of the universe, how much more years will it take a mindless nothing to do same? forever years of nothing is the answer
Prove me wrong where anything nothing has created something and in a sensible layed out order....
You seem not interested in the question you ask, you only want to win an argument however........
What do you mean by requests? Just give me an example (God doesn't count) if you have one.
It is an experience only a few people on earth share. It is not in the media or in your house so you wouldn't know unless i show you how.
I have shown many people how and they were reluctant to fufill the necessary requirements, you won't be any different either.
That's nothing to do with the question
That is what i refer to as God instead of nothing...... does it sound famaliar?
It is irrelevant the way you've taken it.
Very necessary since programmers do a replica(smaller version) of creating a world which is very similar to how ours is/was done either by nothing(i disagree) or God(mind like a programmer).
Every order necessitates a mind prove otherwise.....i keep asking
That's great Jeffrey, you know what a video game is. There wasn't an argument there.
Just the perfect analogy!!!.....
You can also bring up your analogies of nothing creating something.
Like a car, ship, house, game, website template, a designed hair style/cut without a mind.
"I already did that by saying looking at sophisticated order of which the universe, there must have been a mind behind it, therefore call will God."
Of course that doesn't answer the question in any way. The question is about why he existed in the first place, 'before' making the universe. You don't need to make an argument for his existence, you just need to explain why he existed in the first place, instead of nothing. Read my response to Mint-tea's question below for a clarification of the question.
"It is an experience..."
Just give me an example.
"That is what i refer to as God instead of nothing...... does it sound famaliar?"
This sentence makes no sense, and everything after it that you write is still irrelevant to the question.
Your 'analogy' lacked any meaningful explanation, and besides, it still circles back round to the question; why does God exist? Not does God exist, or show evidence that God exists, just: why does He exist?
you just need to explain why he existed in the first place, instead of nothing.
There is nothing like nothing.
Anything you call nothing will still be in the package of something.
There is nothingin the bottle(package)
All cars, mountains, water, air, every living and non living material vanished and was left with Nothing in the earth(package)
Everything in the universe planets, satellites, stars etc. vanished was left with nothing but the layer(Package) of the universe(the universe has a layer like the earth has)
Since the universe keeps expanding there must be a huge vacuum of nothing.
So say the layer also vanishes, in the huge vaccum of nothing, the principles still holds,
God is the mega package of the huge vacuum of nothing before the universe existed.
In him nothing exists and in him came everything?
God exists as the governer of nothing and every thing within it
Nothing can't exist without God neither can anything
That is where it starts and ends with God. There are no other packages/governers/principles of principalities like Him.
Just give me an example.
A spirit i know. Would you believe me,?
No?
Are you ready to travel to have the experience yourself for confirmation?
No? You think i sound too stupid to be telling the truth?
Youre talking absolute bullshit Philosophers, and some physicists, argue that nothing isn't the same as "real" nothing. Different physicists see different things as nothing, from nothing is a classical vacuum, to the idea of nothing as undifferentiated potential.
Stop bullshitting about things you know ...... nothing 👈 about
please don't tell me you're comparing yourself to Einstein
Nerh, i am comparing him to me.
I keep mentioning him because he seem to be a God in western Education.
Anyway i respect him because he was nothing like 90% of the people who worship his knowledge rather more like me.(not me like him, him like me, Dermot i blame you for making me proud and arrogant)
Because I'm not a fool like you who obviously believes everything without proof
Yeah the kinda fool who believes anything from a second party. What if the first and second party are in one person? Which of the two of the one is more foolish(fool, fooler, foolest)?
Like Jesus and his father, are one, all claim God, who is Goder?, the preacher with multitudes(5000churces of over 2billion people(men weigh than angels), over 2000yrs) or the silent sitter on the throne in heaven with Trillion Angels, for Zillion years?(just by the way).
I have an answer(mine is in this paragraph after the first comma, do you?
You closing statement
Your intelligence has a closing feverish attitude when something bigger than it is approaching. Am sorry. Next time i will divide it into the number of hair on your head, that's if the head is not as bald as the intelligence......
Have a good evening......no nightmares from the cartoon level brain.
Einstein didn't do ' predictions ' and no one ever thought him insane , so you're wrong twice .... again
Poor Einstein must be turning in his grave at the comparison ; you blame me for making you proud and arrogant ?
At least you don't blame me for your stupidity which seems to be genetic
Incorrect again I seek proof for everything that's the reason I asked you to prove your astral projection claim and you cannot ; I asked you for a god proof ... still waiting
You're a superstitious , gullible half -wit
Your the kinda fool believes anything from a second hand party that's why you believe in god , demons , and astral projection ... you keep putting your foot in it don't you ?
Who is Goder ? I don't know a rapper maybe ?
I'm convinced you're possibly insane or on drugs as your closing paragraph is pure gibberish
Lol i am usually debating with my little phone and some browser so i usually don't get the full feature. i just switched to laptop and OMG you have been using emoji's? on a serious debate site?
seriously dermot, how old are you, really.... are sure you are as old as you say?
At least let me do it, i am the kid here. You might also be found of taking toffees from kids.....
Your answer was unclear, and didn't seem to say much of anything. It seems to me you think it impossible that true nothingness could have existed?
"God is the mega package of the huge vacuum of nothing before the universe existed."
I think I understand what you are trying to say with this line here, but isn't this just speculation from you? The rest of what you say in this bit seem to just be assertions without evidence - God is this, God is that, etc.
"Nothing can't exist without God neither can anything"
So you say Gd is a necessary being? If you can provide evidence for this claim then you will have answered my first question.
"A spirit I know."
What spirit is this? If you have real evidence of an eternal superhuman being then you should be given a Nobel prize.
It gives me much pleasure to know there is someone on CD intelligent enough to have understood what i have been saying all this while.(Though i was hoping to be disappointed as usual).
If you can provide evidence for this claim then you will have answered my first question.
The evidence cannot be in written/spoken vocabularly material.
So what am about to ask you may sound stupid. So you should always do it at your free time. Don't include it in any of your academic or intellectual work. Use it as a relaxer when tired from work and see which you will profit from the most in years to come; relaxing or work.
Call it the most stupid thing you've ever started in your life and draw no agendas.
Read about and practice "Astral Projection". Use the safest method.
What spirit is this? If you have real evidence of an eternal superhuman being
Ok here you prove open mindedness.
Known of it since 8yrs to 19yrs.
And he has superiors he admits.
Anyone can meet him. He shares every human emotion.......including anger(most important know).
I don't worship it........
For one reason,I am the image of God, every other non human should worship me(not interested though) not the other way round.
No , you got it wrong Mack is intelligent but it's his patience you should be complimenting as in attempting to make sense of your babble .
You say the evidence cannot be written or spoken .... then its not evidence .
Yes that's a strong candidate for the stupidist thing you've ever said although it has strong competition from similar utterances .
Astral projection is utter bullshit if you claim the reverse let's test you , astrally project yourself to an address I will supply and tell me what the interior is like , bet you can't
Your closing rant on spirits is your usual unintelligible gibberish
Ah , you're all annoyed because you cannot deomonstrate your ' powers ' as in astral projection , maybe you could get your robots to attempt what you cannot do you bullshitter
I see you're still lashing out over your recent failure in your exams 😢😢😢
Oh dear , the Ghanaian ' intellectual ' thinks the world will be brighter even without sun ...... Oooookay
Interesting. Glad not to have to fight with you so much. Open mindedness is the only way to truth it seems. I will do some research about astral projection, I am always skeptical.
What you say about the spirit is interesting. I neither believe nor disbelieve you, but am curious.
"I already did that by saying looking at sophisticated order of which the universe, there must have been a mind behind it, therefore call will God."
The universe is not ordered. It's a cruel and chaotic place, of which you have seen so little that if I expressed the figure as a percentage I would be writing zeroes for the next one hundred and fifty lifetimes. Any random number generator, given enough time to work with, will eventually produce sequences which appear to be "ordered" to the human eye. There are literally trillions of planets in the universe, most of which are dead and barren, and simply because you happen to be looking out from one which isn't, you conclude that there must be order? This is absolute, wanton madness.
The universe is not ordered. It's a cruel and chaotic place,
You can build the nicest house you want but as long as the materials are perishable, mobile, responds to stimuli or not invincible, the style of order can be affected.
If anything in this universe is in a chaotic state, it didn't happen on the day the universe came into existence did it happen overnight.
But at least there are still remains of the unharmed to reference from.
Everything was in order on day one, they lost beauty after billions of years.
Even if anything was made ugly, it was the intention of the maker.
Some people like to draw roses, others like to draw vampires.
Saying 9/11 was a government conspiracy and defending Islam is an oxymoron. Why? Because you happily watch an organization (The Western governments) that you say is deliberately trying to destroy/attack us bringing in Muslims by the millions happily and even want to give them MORE social control... OR
Muslims were completely behind 9/11, and you are in complete denial and brainwashed beyond comprehension...
So tell us which it is? Do you support Islam, which was behind 9/11, and is all the things you say you hate about Christianity but on steroids, or do you support like a mindless ideologue, the institutions that you say are so vile that they would intentionally murder their own people?
Maybe you are too young to have forgotten... but I have not. Maybe you are from a different country, but I am not. Maybe you can blindly believe that all cultures are civilized and compatible, but I do not. Maybe you can look the other way, but I can not...
Your country is going to disappear, mark my words, and instead of trying to stop it, you are actually so far gone and brainwashed that you would support a group which has as many people who openly admit extremist views as people live in huge countries, or you are literally wanting to give more power to a group that are guilty of Murder 1 on their own brothers and sisters...
Science does not explain where matter or life came from; it only observes. When people who claim to be scientits start talking about belief in evolution and/or the big bang, they are being misguided philosophers.
Claiming to understand how things came to be without God is not scientific method...it's a belief system and the scientific method shows far more data contradicting evolution and the big bang belief that those ideas by true science are rejected.
Evolution and the big bang belong in philosophy class with all other vain philosophies, not science.
Claiming to understand how things came to be without God is not scientific method...
There is no scientific evidence for God you complete wanton idiot. You are literally saying the scientific method isn't the scientific method because it follows the scientific method instead of basing its conclusions on mythology. You are a sick individual and you need help from a psychiatric professional.
Claiming to understand how things came to be without God is not scientific method...
Very good, potty mouth....keep reading my posts, maybe you will come to your senses and realize that God has the right to leave you in the fire of Hell forever, and maybe you will get saved.
Why/how would a mindless nothing, produce a mindful
Jeffrey, that's the entire point. The universe is not mindful. Your belief that it is mindful is the result of a gross misunderstanding of the facts.
Planets sun stars not colliding
Jeffrey, entire galaxies can and do collide. Our own galaxy, The Milky Way, will in the future almost certainly collide with the neighbouring Andromeda galaxy. Even the Moon you see at night is the result of an ancient collision with Earth.
Please try using your common sense. Space is absolutely massive. It is far bigger than your own imagination is capable of perceiving and the distances between planets and/or stars is vast.
Seasons
What? How exactly do seasons indicate a mindful universe? Winter kills people, so they indicate the precise opposite.
reproducion of physically and gentically identical species over billion ofcyears consistently
Just what the hell?????? Are you denying biological evolution now too?
Arguing with you is impossible because you have such a huge ignorance of the facts. The very definition of religion is ignorance. It is the belief that, instead of seeking answers, we should invent our own and spend eternity pretending they are real.
According to your own authorities you are mostly likely to appeal to for scientific reasoning ; Thomas edison(pantheist), Albert Einstein(pantheist), Newton(Christian~Panth...), Lord Kelvin(Christian~panth...), Da Vinci(Unclassified but believed in God as the creator but i can't say much about God of love/in heaven), there is a creator(mind) behind the universe.
I won't spill my personal opinions here. I have done it for so many months....i am stressed out plus it gets boring doing it over and over again.
You say the universe isn't in order what is wrong with you?
No matter how ordely something is made , as long as it can be affected by it's environment...responds to stimuli and not invincible, it surely will lose it's order gradually so many years especially after so many billions of years. It doesn't change the fact that it was originally in order.
If the universe was in this current state a 100billion years ago, do you think this is how the earth will be today?
And neither is the universe changing from a choatic state to an orderly state.
Talking about common sense, when you say there are dead planets, you should know something lives before it dies. You cannot judge the beauty of a man by his skeletal bones. Time kills beauty, times kill order in this universe of perishable materials.
Simply means the universe has initially been in perfect order.....but there were dead(after so many years) falling bodies, getting out of the way of it's ordered course, hiting/colliding another living or dead, there the disorder continues even if any other slightly or masively affected body moves an inch away from it's originally calculated ordered position. That is what you see now after so many billions of years not the very first day of the beginning of the billions of years.
You misunderstood what i said about reproduction and seasons, it's good for me. Makes argument shorter and easier.
I'm sorry to say I'm not that well, as I have a cold. I hope that you are at least well.
To clarify, my question was "Why would God exist instead of nothing?"
This is basically a different wording of 'Nicolas Cage's' initial question below, "How did God come into being," except I try to avoid making it sound as if he 'came into being,' because most Christians would say that he is eternal.
The question assumes the existence of God, and that he is the cause of our Universe, as per what many believers would say the 'first cause' or 'Kalam cosmological' arguments show. My question then asks why (not if) God existed in whatever form he did 'before' the formation of the Universe/Big bang. Why did he exist instead of eternal nothingness?
You say: "I think my initial response would be, well...why do we exist instead of nothing? Followed by, why wouldn't He?"
This gives me a chance to clear up some possible misunderstanding. When asked "why do we exist instead of nothing?" many theists would say that we exist because of God, as if that explains everything. That's were my question comes in, it is supposed to show that the answer of 'we exist because of God' is an unsatisfactory one, it just pushes the question back a step to what I asked. If we exist because of God, then why does God exist?
For my question to make better sense one needs to understand that the question you asked; "why do we exist instead of nothing" has already been asked, and my question is a response to the common answer of "because of God."
I'm trying to show that one shouldn't say "because of God" without a reasonable answer to the question "Why would God exist instead of nothing?"
You continue, with: "... why wouldn't He [exist]?"
It seems like a good question, but I'm not sure it makes sense. I think we need reasons to be given for why something would exist before we give reasons for why they wouldn't exist. It almost seems as if the question "why wouldn't He exist" assumes there is some reason that he would exist. It's like asking why wouldn't the flying spaghetti monster exist, it's a valid question, but not one that's easy to answer, if answerable at all. I don't think anything would exist without some reason or cause for its existence, so a reason or cause needs to be shown for the flying spaghetti monster, or God, to exist, before I can give any more argument for why they wouldn't exist.
"I don't think I've debated you enough to know your debate style. :D"
It is a shame I haven't debated you more, you seem to make good points whenever I read your arguments. I hope I've cleared up what the meaning of the question I asked was.
I'm sorry to say I'm not that well, as I have a cold. I hope that you are at least well.
I'm sorry to hear that, I hope you feel better soon. I've had a bit of a stressful trip today but all will be well upon sleep.
except I try to avoid making it sound as if he 'came into being,' because most Christians would say that he is eternal.
Oh but I actually enjoy hearing what people think, or what people think who believe in God. How did God come into existence? Even an eternal had to start somewhere, so where and how? Or maybe my thought process is a bit more simplistic, I can't conceive of something not starting someplace even if it's eternal.
Why did he exist instead of eternal nothingness?
Perhaps the reason for God's existence is to create an existence for others? Perhaps He is an eternal creator and our experiences with Him is limited due to our own thinking. We think we are alone in the universe but the universe is SO large with so much that we just don't know. Perhaps God is pure energy, and if we are "created in his likeness" we are too literal a thinking that as we are now is his likeness, perhaps the energy within us evolved into what we are now. When we die where does that energy go? This is of course in theory, and I enjoy the discussions to it.
I'm trying to show that one shouldn't say "because of God" without a reasonable answer to the question
Oh I agree. I think it's just an easier answer. But it's an impossible answer. We can't really speak for God, we can't say we know Him until of course, we die. So we come across a conundrum. Those who don't believe in Him want reasonable answers to some reasonable questions. And those who do can only answer so much.
It almost seems as if the question "why wouldn't He exist"
Well, I think the answer is simple. Or at least it can be widdled down to a simplistic answer. Why wouldn't He exist? Because people don't want to believe in only scientific answers.
It is a shame I haven't debated you more, you seem to make good points whenever I read your arguments.
Why thank you, I enjoy debating with you as well. I greatly appreciate your responses and that you don't fall back on the 'attack the person, not the debate' that many do. I hope I made even a sliver of sense, I'm pretty exhausted after this trip but had to jump on and loved your clarification, I get so excited about other people's thoughts that I just have to chat back. :D I do hope you are feeling better!
"Even an eternal had to start somewhere, so where and how? Or maybe my thought process is a bit more simplistic, I can't conceive of something not starting someplace even if it's eternal."
Well, I think the whole point of being eternal is that you don't have to start somewhere, but it is hard, maybe even impossible, for any of us to understand fully.
"Perhaps the reason for God's existence is to create an existence for others?"
I'm not so sure that's a valid answer ... why would something need to exist to create existence for others? It's not like an infinite empty void would care about creating existence for others... your proposition makes it seem as if he was 'created' for a purpose, which raises the question; why does he exist for that purpose? Why wouldn't there just be no being that existed for that purpose?
"We think we are alone in the universe but the universe is SO large with so much that we just don't know. Perhaps God is pure energy, and if we are "created in his likeness" we are too literal a thinking that as we are now is his likeness, perhaps the energy within us evolved into what we are now."
All of these 'what ifs?' are a bit too speculative for me to find a firm ground to comment from, but still interesting questions to think about.
"Oh I agree. I think it's just an easier answer. But it's an impossible answer. We can't really speak for God, we can't say we know Him until of course, we die. So we come across a conundrum. Those who don't believe in Him want reasonable answers to some reasonable questions. And those who do can only answer so much."
That is of course a correct point. I don't think anybody can answer my question about why God exists with absolute certainty, which is part of the point I'm trying to make. It is far wiser for one to say that they don't know why the universe came to be instead of eternal nothingness, than it is to claim 'God did it' without explanation as to why he existed, or to claim God (or some other god(s)) didn't do it without a full explanation as to why the universe came to be 'on its own.' Some physicists might be coming close to some answers, which I find very interesting, but for now nobody really knows.
"Why wouldn't He exist? Because people don't want to believe in only scientific answers."
I know what you are saying, but to clarify, that of course doesn't truly answer the question of why wouldn't he exist. I think He wouldn't have existed if there were never any reason for his existence, no 'why.' In that case the universe would have had to form itself. Whether or not that reason existed, and if so what would it be are the questions that follow.
":D I do hope you are feeling better!"
I am starting to now, thanks.
P.S, when you referred to your trip I at first worried it was a drug induced one, rather than an actual trip (e.g. via plane/train etc), I think (hope) that it was the latter. :)
P.S, when you referred to your trip I at first worried it was a drug induced one, rather than an actual trip (e.g. via plane/train etc), I think (hope) that it was the latter. :)
LOL. That made me laugh, yes it was an actual trip, driving in a car for four hours with two kids, to visit family and my newest niece. I'm still in some shock that we didn't drive off a mountain what with all the screaming going on in the backseat by kids who didn't want to sit anymore.
Thank you for our conversation, it was a good one. I'm in dire need of coffee right now so I'll just say, I'm glad you are starting to feel better.
It is obvious, but it is also a powerful counterargument against the religious when they point to the wonder of our situation as "evidence" of God. Even if the odds are a million to one, our very existence proves that probability occurred, or we wouldn't be here to question it.
My personal theory is more of a question: "Why does everything need a beginning?"
When we look at and philosophise about the universe, I think the huge mistake we make is looking at things through human logic and what we, as mortal beings, know as truth.
One of our truths is "something cannot come from nothing", because we personally do not know of and cannot conceive of something which can bring about its own existence, or alternatively, just exists without the requirement of a cause.
This theory of mine is relatively neutral, because it can work as a support for both arguments: "God doesn't need a cause" and "the universe doesn't need a cause".
I think we're so focused on looking at current, objective truths that we're afraid to contemplate other options beyond our understanding. It's perfectly reasonable to assume that the universe just doesn't need a creator, and that the universe just is.
Regarding the existence of God, I neither believe he does exist or that he doesn't exist. I think both possibilities are, well, possible.
Hi Mint , undoubtedly that's true it can give comfort that way yet another C D debater Jeffrey only said half an hour ago very few go to heaven and he fears Hell ; I'm the product of a Catholic upbringing in the Republic of Ireland where as children we were all told of the fiery punishment that awaited us as we were all sinners and this gave me a deep dislike for preachers and bible bashers .
My question i uses to ask priests was " if the nature of God is love why does he need to send people to hell for eternity , what crime deserves eternal torture " ? I followed this with " if I as a human can forgive someone why am I better than a god who cannot "?
My questions were never answered as they used to chant the favourite mantra as in " god works in mysterious ways "
Here, I'll help point out the part I think you didn't understand.
My questions were never answered as they used to chant the favourite mantra as in " god works in mysterious ways "
That wasn't Dermot saying it, that was the answer he got. And if you seriously do not think that some religious figures in authority don't use that excuse instead of saying they just don't have an answer....you need to talk to more religious figures.
Oh a pity. Then you must have some whack religious leaders there in your catholic churches.(Which i still doubt).
Protestant, Baptist and one other, I can't for the life of me recall exactly which denomination it was....Presbyterian maybe, have all said "God works in mysterious ways." while standing before the flock. So yes, religious leaders have indeed used that phrase.
It doesn't take away from the initial point that you misunderstood what was said.
He's actually pretty ignorant on most things and on the bible he's terrible , the expression I said the priest used is based on the words of a hymn and is often thought to be directly from the bible which it's not
Mint the unfortunate thing is he does not understand it , in every debate with everyone it's always the same he totally ignores everything said to him and re -interprets it into what he thinks they said
I assume my questions and "God works in mysterious ways" answer doesn't make sense to you right?
Yes i was only making an extension on dermot's senslessness.
In the same way no sane person will give such an unfit answer to his yet feeble minded questions.
There is not one(authentic or even not christian leader ) in the world who will give such an answer to those particular questions of dermot.
It's either you realise he is lying in the most stupid way possible or it will be rather apparent how dumber you are than him as you keep defending his stupidity.
You were trying to justify how you got it wrong again and failed ... again
For two feeble minded questions you have not even atttempted to answer them because you cannot , can you ?
Wrong again , I've asked several religious people these questions and unlike you they all attempted an answer you don't because you're too stupid to comprehend what I ask
I don't lie , we have established that in fact you're the compulsive liar as proved using your own words which you denied using but were shown to be a coward and a liar .
So you dummy can you answer the questions , run along now and ask daddy to help you ......
How do you constantly miss everyone's point in even argument ?
I never asked the priest any of these questions as we were already aware of the answers ; can you not follow a simple argument ?
Here is what I said you moron ......My question i uses to ask priests was " if the nature of God is love why does he need to send people to hell for eternity , what crime deserves eternal torture " ? I followed this with " if I as a human can forgive someone why am I better than a god who cannot "?
My questions were never answered as they used to chant the favourite mantra as in " god works in mysterious ways "
You truly area dumb brute and to say Catholics are going to roast in hell just goes to show not alone do you hate most things and most people who are different to you but you also hate fellow Christians .
You answered no question you said you had 'scientific ' proof for god and five minutes later said it is foolish to attempt to prove or speculate on god making you a liar .
Your lies which you denied were posted on C D for all to see and you openly admitted that your pastor would not believe the hate you spew
I read and understood the whole nonsense you wrote there ...and the most surprisely stupid part(the lie) is what you say the priest's reply is......
"God works in......." bullshit.
Only you are stupid enough to make up such a moronic lie.
I don't like the catholics but i was in a catholic school for 3yrs and i know every catholic priest is 20times intelligent beyond such a stupid reply you made up.
If you insist it to be true, then you grew up among the most idiotic people on earth and apparently you are a indoctrinated idiot
Hilarious so the man who wrote these original words was a moron ?
You Ghanaians are truly an uneducated lot as a school kid here knows where this comes from .......let me educate you
It's from a poem by William Cowper (who lived 1731–1800), whose first stanza reads, “God moves in a mysterious way / His wonders to perform; / He plants His footsteps in the sea / And rides upon the storm.”
So Jeffrey caught lying again and your stupid position is if the words are false everyone is intelligent if they're true everyone is an idiot .... what age are you ?
Also it's refreshing to see you agree believers are indoctrinated
yet another C D debater Jeffrey only said half an hour ago very few go to heaven and he fears Hell .....
XD I mean....it's Jeffrey. We already know how he is, I can't take most of what he says too seriously anymore. lol
" if the nature of God is love why does he need to send people to hell for eternity , what crime deserves eternal torture " ? I followed this with " if I as a human can forgive someone why am I better than a god who cannot "?
I think those are good questions. And I also think the answers can vary from person to person. You have some people who take the bible VERY literally and others, like myself, who think of it more like a history book mixed with Aesop's fables. The underlying lesson is more important. Personally I'm very fascinated with archaeology and biblical text, such as the locations of Sodom and Gomorrah actually existing and perishing by a meteor. The story of the Flood is one that occurs in many ancient stories, some of which span the globe and whose cultures shouldn't have had contact with one another yet the story is the same.
I think it would be fun to have a discussion on your questions though, I just wish some people on here were civil enough to do so because I think opinions from people who are more devout to the bible, and those who aren't would have some interesting views that I'd love to hear.
The God hypothesis itself is pure speculation. Speculating on why your speculation creates an infinite regression is quite unnecessary, because you don't have any evidence to support your original speculation in the first place. This is just so stupid. It's like me telling you there is a giant bunny rabbit who decides which way the planets turn, you demanding to know why you can't see him, and me "speculating" that perhaps he is invisible. It's madness.
i don't call God a rabbit, Elephant, Man, or rose flower.
All i say is there is a mind. Softwares have minds.
I haven't said the mind has teeth, nose, two eyes, stomach but doesn't eat.
All i say is a mind. Eel fish produces electricity on it's own men can't do it but we accept it because we have seen em' but another guy some darkness of no such knowledge will doubt, call you a foooool, and even kill you if you further provoke him because he hasn't seen(men are so), clownfish can change it's sex ,chameleons change colour just like their current environment(Is the mind behind creation using the same trick in dark space?)
Air exists but i can't see it. Things are lighter than air we cannot see. There were colours in space cameras in space couldn't see until recent advancements.
The mind is taking the colour of air and space darkness whenever depending wherever he is visiting.
Taking the shape of space.
Taking the shape of men (frogs shapeshift), how many different people do you meet every year?, How many are God taking a stroll(what you didn't do for your neighbour you haven't done for me, who is your neighbour?.....room mate, nextdoor, city, state, countries,)?
For, one reason, there is too much evidence for necessity of a creator of the universe.
Seeing him isn't necessity for proof of existence. (See him through his creations and you will know his abilities)
It is only in high demand by morons.
For he being a mind, he is free of his own mind decisions without permissions from anyone such as not being seen or seen but not recognised to be pointed at.
Celebrities(Bill gates, monarchs, Tv talents, Politicians, Edward Snowdens, and God) usually walk in disguise on non ceremonial days.
The difference between us is if you truly, 100% believed in that giant bunny rabbit, I wouldn't give a crap about it. I really don't. I only care about if you personally hurt or try to impose your belief on others. You can't control others who believe in that Giant bunny but your actions determine if your belief is dangerous or if it's just your belief. If you think there is a giant bunny rabbit that decides which way the planet turns, good for you.
I think the difference between you is that you believe in the unverifiable to help be a better person while he believes in the historically defunct which helps makes home a worse person.
Because he is tenseless as are all things that our minds deem as abstract. Time didn't exist nor did space, which would define "coming into being". He puts time into motion.
Mohammed was a iiar, (also a child molester, thief, and murderer). He was not a prophet of God, he was a tool of Satan. Allah is the god of Islam, Satan in disguise trying to kill everybody and take them down to Hell. God's name is not Allah, Islam is from Hell and one day will be confined forever in it's fire and never bother the living again.
The creator of life would have not just made people but also was also the creator of the candiru fish which swims up men's urethra's when they pee in the Amazon River, and any other pest which inflicts suffering or pain.
You can choose to believe that's from natural selection and evolution, or, you can choose to believe they were all made from one uber-God. But if it's truly the latter then you need to embrace those other creatures as part of your God's plan.
As science developed to give us a more logical answer,
Please do you mind sharing the new discovery and the evidence backing it be it in the lab or witnessed or measurable natural phenomena, Experts involved and the degree of their expertise and experience , how it correlates and influence the evidence, questions thrown at them and what their replies were?
A divine being as in a supernatural power or deity .
Well most the world believes so without evidence .
What is a god ? 260 million Americans alone claim to devoutly believe in god yet not one of them can present one shred of solid evidence for the existence of this ghost they call god ; not one of them either can define their god in simple terminology.
Are we the creation of a god ? If the god that Christians speak off is perfect in every way and requires nothing why would he want to create multiple Universes and place humans on one planet so they could kiss his ass ?
I have to agree. What would be the point of a divine being which never offered any objective evidence that it exists? The concept of divine beings arose from ancient man's desire to answer questions without sufficient knowledge. So he made up magical beings and claimed they were "divine" and omnipotent.
You don't even know half of everything, yet you pretend to know that in the half of everything you know nothing about, you know God is not there. You're making a fool out of yourself.
That's right, potty mouth, You don't even know half of everything, you have one foot in the grave and the other on thin ice melting over the fire of Hell. You need to be saved.
Wow, potty mouth...something I said must have really riled you up; you're going ballistic with your dirt bomb mouth. God is against a potty mouth, you know that, right? If you wake up in Hell, it's only because you deserve to be there and refused to ask God's mercy to be saved by Him, the only Savior, Jesus Christ who died for you to save you from Hell.
In order to be a creation of anything, creation would have to be more than a fallacy. As it stands, the concept of creation is little more than a proclamation of magic, and we have no evidence that anything has ever been "created" (brought into existence from non-existence). We're very familiar with transformation but have no evidence for creation, no events of creation, and no reason to suspect that anything has ever been created. Therefore, it stands to reason that we aren't the "creation" of anything. And since we have no evidence of a divine being, that would seem to be a dead argument as well.
I would say we are the creation of a divine being. Science has developed tremendously, especially over the past century. However, I don't think that means that religion gets snuffed out so to speak. I would say science deals with the physical aspects of our existence while religion deals with the metaphysical aspects of our existence
But you end up excluding all aspects of divinity from the physical, and the precludes miracles, answers to prayers, etc. It leaves you with a God who does nothing of any consequence to physical beings. And while people like to claim we have a metaphysical (or non-physical) spirit, what we can show for certain is that we are physical beings. And despite a great deal of research attempting to find evidence of a soul (or "spirit"), no such evidence has been found. This leaves us with stories from ancient men who demonstrate a barbaric nature and no less ignorance than would be expected if they were speaking only from their own minds and beliefs.
I would say science deals with the physical aspects of our existence while religion deals with the metaphysical aspects of our existence
Your nomenclature is faulty. Metaphysics is another word for philosophy, not spirituality. Making up a story about a giant creature who lives in the sky deals with no metaphysical aspects of our existence because it follows no reliable chain of reasoning.
I would respectfully ask that you not deflect the question.
Your question was a deflection in the first place, you idiot. You want a definition of reason only so you can create a semantic argument out of it. Accept that I'm not going to play your idiotic game.
Except that your first reply to me was a semantic argument essentially saying that I was equating terms. Why is it a problem if I ask you to clarify something for me?
This is a curock of rubbish. You cannot remove God from nature. To practice science is to observe what God has made, and the decay in God's creation caused by sin.
People who claim to be scientists and espouse ideas of evolution and the big bang are religious philosophers who hate God and love death.
Also, Who said God made any of these terrible things happen?
In Ephesians 2:2 it is written that Satan is "The prince of the Power of the Air" Yet at the same time we read all throughout the Bible that All is as God wills it and that nothing happens without his permission. Read the book of Job: Beginning in verse six it reads:
well...it probably can never be proven that if we were created by a divine being so I'll remain neutral.
another thing bothering me is that most of you guys here argue that "if God made us so why so many sufferings??"
well as people believe that Satan is causing them all.At this point, some might say that if God has supreme control (as stated in almost all the holy books) so why can't he eliminate evil from the face of the earth?
well as said by one of my close friend "LIFE IS A TEST AND GOD IS THE EXAMINER".
well as people believe that Satan is causing them all.At this point, some might say that if God has supreme control (as stated in almost all the holy books) so why can't he eliminate evil from the face of the earth?
Because the poppycock these idiots believe in completely contradicts itself. You can't use reason to explain it to them, since religion requires a total lobotomy of the parts of the brain responsible for logic.
